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2019-20 Performances


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He'sRaldo

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I could be wrong but Pogba doesn't seem like the kind of player who would be in his view curtailed by coaching.

I think under someone like Guardiola he'd more likely to go the way of Ibrahimovich than KdB.

Also the problem with him further forward is he won't press, which is what the manager wants from his front four (and if one doesn't press you may as well not bother as there's always an out ball).

Well, when no one improves at the club in years and years, I'll definitely find it hard to blame any one player. From what I've heard from his coaches, he seems to be the kind that will willingly be coached. In fact, due to his versatility he's constantly playing different roles.

Whether or not he'll press higher up needs to be tried out first before we can come to the conclusion that he won't. His body type isn't as agile or quick off the mark as his other pressing contemporaries, so I understand your point. However, I think if he can learn to position himself intelligently to cut out passing lanes, he need not run around like a Lingard or Pereira. That's his biggest flaw that he should be working on right now, he doesn't have elite defensive awareness.
 

finneh

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Well, when no one improves at the club in years and years, I'll definitely find it hard to blame any one player. From what I've heard from his coaches, he seems to be the kind that will willingly be coached. In fact, due to his versatility he's constantly playing different roles.

Whether or not he'll press higher up needs to be tried out first before we can come to the conclusion that he won't. His body type isn't as agile or quick off the mark as his other pressing contemporaries, so I understand your point. However, I think if he can learn to position himself intelligently to cut out passing lanes, he need not run around like a Lingard or Pereira. That's his biggest flaw that he should be working on right now, he doesn't have elite defensive awareness.
I wouldn't say no-one improves. Lindelof, McTominay and Rashford have improved over the last few years for example. Martial is a better overall player now than for Monaco (although his development hasn't been linear). Likewise I'd say James, AWB and McGuire have been integrated very well to the huge pressures of playing for United, which although isn't an "improvement" in the traditional sense, it's important.

In terms of whether he will press this has already been shown, as it was with Lukaku. Therefore Ole isn't going to waste his time trying to shoehorn him into being something he isn't. In terms of cutting out passing lanes he simply does not have the off the ball concentration, which again is proven.

It's why in my view Pogba is such a square peg in the modern game. I see phenomenal teams and see how he could be phenomenal in them. However I see teams like Liverpool that are based solely on a system that requires every player to sacrifice themselves for the good of the team and just can't see where Pogba would fit in. I guarantee for example that Klopp would prefer Henderson to Pogba, despite the former being far less talented.
 

Grande

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I could be wrong but Pogba doesn't seem like the kind of player who would be in his view curtailed by coaching.

I think under someone like Guardiola he'd more likely to go the way of Ibrahimovich than KdB.

Also the problem with him further forward is he won't press, which is what the manager wants from his front four (and if one doesn't press you may as well not bother as there's always an out ball).
I think you are right in this. Mourinho and Ole have both tried to get Pogba to press and to increase his defensive positional awareness, and both given up. I think he genuinely loves football and is at heart a reponsible person, but in terms of tactical awareness he seems a slower learner than Shaw even. He needs to be protected, like Juventus did, and like France did. It comes at a cost, and you need world class around him as well to cover that cost. United doesn’t have that yet.
 

He'sRaldo

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I wouldn't say no-one improves. Lindelof, McTominay and Rashford have improved over the last few years for example. Martial is a better overall player now than for Monaco (although his development hasn't been linear). Likewise I'd say James, AWB and McGuire have been integrated very well to the huge pressures of playing for United, which although isn't an "improvement" in the traditional sense, it's important.
Although when I said no one it was hyperbole, I don't think these examples are very good except Scott. In my view, both Martial and Rashford have stagnated, while Lindelof has only improved in comparison with his initial abysmal level. As for the new signings, it remains to be seen if they start to stagnate like the others.

In terms of whether he will press this has already been shown, as it was with Lukaku. Therefore Ole isn't going to waste his time trying to shoehorn him into being something he isn't. In terms of cutting out passing lanes he simply does not have the off the ball concentration, which again is proven.
If I remember correctly, the only manager he played under for us other than Ole was Jose, and Josse doesn't implement a high press. For Ole's initial winning run, I remember him pressing as well as anyone in the team. The problem was his recovery runs if the press was bypassed, he lacked that dynamism and thus Herrerra often covered for him. As for the bolded, I agree, and I think he should be working on that, as well as bypassing pressure with his 1st or 2nd touch, instead of trying to muscle through the midfield.


It's why in my view Pogba is such a square peg in the modern game. I see phenomenal teams and see how he could be phenomenal in them. However I see teams like Liverpool that are based solely on a system that requires every player to sacrifice themselves for the good of the team and just can't see where Pogba would fit in. I guarantee for example that Klopp would prefer Henderson to Pogba, despite the former being far less talented.
I can understand this view, although note that the Liverpool way isn't special. It's simply the least technical players on the team covering for the more technical players, that's all it is. For instance, in City's system, the fullbacks cover for their midfielders since KDB and David Silva are of that elite quality that requires that treatment. Just think how ridiculous it would be to play KDB and Silva as holding midfielders, so as to allow Zinchenko and Kyle Walker to fly forward.

Since we have Pogba and defensive fullbacks, we should be comparing our system with City's rather than Liverpool's.

And as for the bolded, make no mistake, every elite manager recognizes quality when he sees it, and the more astute ones are able to integrate that quality into the squad to the benefit of everyone. Gundogan, Sahin, Gotze, Kagawa, Coutinho, etc were key players under Klopp, so I highly doubt he'll turn his nose up at elite quality like Pogba.
 
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roykeane19

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Hate is a touch strong, I just think he is the most overhyped player in that price bracket I have ever seen in 35 years watching the game (accounting for inflation before some nut jobs lose their minds) it’s the love in some people have with him that angers me especially when he does not even want to be a united player.
And yet you all love Ronaldo even though he also pushed for a move to RM, but because hes one of the best players, the fans praise him everyhting he plays against us, just because they want to associate themselves with greatness. Isnt not a bit double standards.
Every players pushes for moves aborad, and our team is fecking shit, we never feckign improve in terms of quality this is probably the weakest its been post SAF. If I was him I`d leave toom hes beign wasted here, teammates are shit, media is on a rascist withchunt including all pundits on tv have free reign to spout whatver bile and fabricated lies everyone is regurgitating without any factual evidence.

And the fans boo him, why would you put all the blame on him?
 

fergiesarmy1

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And yet you all love Ronaldo even though he also pushed for a move to RM, but because hes one of the best players, the fans praise him everyhting he plays against us, just because they want to associate themselves with greatness. Isnt not a bit double standards.
Every players pushes for moves aborad, and our team is fecking shit, we never feckign improve in terms of quality this is probably the weakest its been post SAF. If I was him I`d leave toom hes beign wasted here, teammates are shit, media is on a rascist withchunt including all pundits on tv have free reign to spout whatver bile and fabricated lies everyone is regurgitating without any factual evidence.

And the fans boo him, why would you put all the blame on him?
That is nowhere near the reason I have for having no issue with Ronaldo. For one he didn’t use his brother and agent to continually disrespect the club, for two he done a lot more than 2 seasons before angling for a move and everyone knew being a Portuguese lad it was his dream to play for Madrid.

Pretty sure Pogba who isn’t in the same bracket as Ronaldo clearly, would willingly go to Barca or PSG if Madrid falls through.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Pogba did make 4 key passes in that game but only with an xA of 0.28 so it isn't reasonable to have expected any goals to have been scored from them. McT had an xA of 0.36 and James 0.40. The pass to Rashford wasn't anything special, it pushed him out wide into an unfavourable angle and he was pretty tightly marked.
Wth is xA?? :lol:
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Expected assist get with the times. His Xti (expected throw ins) was above average at 0.12 in that game too. His Xsw(expected sweat) was lower than usual though which is worrying.
They use that to rate the quality of pass?!! :lol::lol: ridiculous
 

Adam-Utd

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When is he due back?
Ole said he and martial were back in training but it was too soon for Leicester.

Probably wait until West Ham but maybe a few minutes Thursday if needed.
 

Classical Mechanic

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They use that to rate the quality of pass?!! :lol::lol: ridiculous
They use it rate the quality of the chance by averaging how many players have scored from the same position. For example, a penalty will have an xG (expected goal) of 0.75 because 75% of penalties are scored in the Premier League. There’s nothing ridiculous about it, in fact I’d say it’s great because it adds real context to the key passes stat in which you can get a ‘key pass’ from a cross that skims off a player’s head in a position where they’d have little chance of scoring even with real contact on the ball.


https://understat.com/match/11673

It means fans to do better when claiming things about players they like/dislike too so it can’t be bad.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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They use it rate the quality of the chance by averaging how many players have scored from the same position. For example, a penalty will have an xG (expected goal) of 0.75 because 75% of penalties are scored in the Premier League. There’s nothing ridiculous about it, in fact I’d say it’s great because it adds real context to the key passes stat in which you can get a ‘key pass’ from a cross that skims off a player’s head in a position where they’d have little chance of scoring even with real contact on the ball.


https://understat.com/match/11673

It means fans to do better when claiming things about players they like/dislike too so it can’t be bad.
So explain which pass from McTomminay with better xG than Pogba? Which one from James?
 

Classical Mechanic

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So explain which pass from McTomminay with better xG than Pogba? Which one from James?
The McT one is at 55 seconds in this video, not sure on the James one, its possibly the good cross at the end, although the Southampton player gets it so I'm not sure. If they evaluate how many players are in the box from each team and who should get the ball on average in those situations I don't know. You'd have to watch the full game to see if there were any others.

 

kouroux

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That is nowhere near the reason I have for having no issue with Ronaldo. For one he didn’t use his brother and agent to continually disrespect the club, for two he done a lot more than 2 seasons before angling for a move and everyone knew being a Portuguese lad it was his dream to play for Madrid.

Pretty sure Pogba who isn’t in the same bracket as Ronaldo clearly, would willingly go to Barca or PSG if Madrid falls through.
That's based on nothing on but your imagination. Paul's bro has a loose mouth, sometimes it's just as simple and there is nothing one can do about it if he wants to talk about these things.
 

haram

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That's based on nothing on but your imagination. Paul's bro has a loose mouth, sometimes it's just as simple and there is nothing one can do about it if he wants to talk about these things.
Pretty sure Paul can tell his brother to shut up....
 

Jeppers7

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That's based on nothing on but your imagination. Paul's bro has a loose mouth, sometimes it's just as simple and there is nothing one can do about it if he wants to talk about these things.
He used his mum :lol:
 

Jeppers7

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The McT one is at 55 seconds in this video, not sure on the James one, its possibly the good cross at the end, although the Southampton player gets it so I'm not sure. If they evaluate how many players are in the box from each team and who should get the ball on average in those situations I don't know. You'd have to watch the full game to see if there were any others.


Wow...is that a pass or simply a punt upfield....there’s literally no way he played that to end up there. What a joke you’ve made of your own point.
 

Jeppers7

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You are all acting as if his entourage needs his ok to speak to media and without it, they'd say nothing. I mean you seem very sure about something impossible to know for sure.
Sorry I quoted the wrong post...I meant Ronaldo. Someone said Ronaldo didn’t use his brother.

He used his mum!!
 

Classical Mechanic

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Wow...is that a pass or simply a punt upfield....there’s literally no way he played that to end up there. What a joke you’ve made of your own point.
It's a pass that resulted in a kind of decent chance, although on that you should expect a forward to score from on most occasions, it is what it is. Its Opta that have designed this model, not me. It's infinitely better than fanboys on a forum trying to prove their favourite player did things he didn't based on hazy and extremely biased memories.
 
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Jeppers7

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It's a pass that resulted in a fairly decent chance, it is what it is. Its OPTA that have designed this model, not me. It's infinitely better than fanboys on a forum trying to prove their favourite player did things he didn't based on hazy and extremely biased memories.
But if you take a step back from yourself a second.....Pogba put Rashford through on goal twice in the second half and you’ve used these stats to try to discredit. You’ve tried to discredit stats that show Pogba in a favourable light at every turn and on the flip side have used stats to justify other players poor performance and inconsistencies.

Then you’re using XA stats from a punt upfield to discredit Pogba throughball, when all that does is make a mockery of stats you claim justify and add context.

To cap it off you seem to see anyone who sees positives in Pogba as a fanboy who invents things.

If there’s anyone in here who doesn’t think Pogba has weaknesses to his game or thinks he’s been brilliant for the past three years then they are as deluded and blinkered as you.

Your entire post could be reworded in the negative and would actually define you.
 

Jeppers7

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It's a punt that resulted in a kind of decent chance, although on that you should expect a forward to score from on most occasions, it is what it is. Its Opta that have designed this model, not me. It's infinitely worse than haters on a forum trying to disprove their least favourite player did things he didn't based on hazy and extremely biased memories.
 

Classical Mechanic

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But if you take a step back from yourself a second.....Pogba put Rashford through on goal twice in the second half and you’ve used these stats to try to discredit. You’ve tried to discredit stats that show Pogba in a favourable light at every turn and on the flip side have used stats to justify other players poor performance and inconsistencies.

Then you’re using XA stats from a punt upfield to discredit Pogba throughball, when all that does is make a mockery of stats you claim justify and add context.

To cap it off you seem to see anyone who sees positives in Pogba as a fanboy who invents things.

If there’s anyone in here who doesn’t think Pogba has weaknesses to his game or thinks he’s been brilliant for the past three years then they are as deluded and blinkered as you.

Your entire post could be reworded in the negative and would actually define you.
It doesn't make a mockery of anything, Rashford is playing off the shoulder and McT looks to play that pass, if you think McT isn't the kind of player to play that pass and that somehow negates the fact that a chance was created then you are wrong. That said, it has little to do with the quality of chances created by Pogba in this game.

You are also wrong to say that Pogba put Rashford 'through on goal twice' because he didn't. He played the ball into positions where the player is very unlikely to score from, that is not putting a player through on goal. Pogba has made a single 'big chance' this season, this is a chance where statistically the player is reasonably expected to score from, measured against the success of all the other players that have had the same chance, this was against Chelsea and Rashford scored the chance.

I am debating a single issue here, the idea that Pogba created chances against Southampton that which Rashford should have scored from, this is simply a false claim and it is confirmed by the a statistical model from the leading stats company in football, one that Premier League clubs pays big money to subscribe to.

The good thing about statistics is that the strip away the levels of bias that we are all prone to.
 

kouroux

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Let's pack it all up when it comes to football discussions as stats have overtaken us. x this and x that, feck this shit. Nothing beats the eye test.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Let's pack it all up when it comes to football discussions as stats have overtaken us. x this and x that, feck this shit. Nothing beats the eye test.
I disagree. It enables us to have deeper and more accurate analysis. It also helps to cut through bias which obfuscates reality.

I think if you really looked into xG modelling you would agree that it is very useful in some areas, specifically quality of chances created and how a team performs generally in a game.
 

Jeppers7

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It doesn't make a mockery of anything, Rashford is playing off the shoulder and McT looks to play that pass, if you think McT isn't the kind of player to play that pass and that somehow negates the fact that a chance was created then you are wrong. That said, it has little to do with the quality of chances created by Pogba in this game.

You are also wrong to say that Pogba put Rashford 'through on goal twice' because he didn't. He played the ball into positions where the player is very unlikely to score from, that is not putting a player through on goal. Pogba has made a single 'big chance' this season, this is a chance where statistically the player is reasonably expected to score from, measured against the success of all the other players that have had the same chance, this was against Chelsea and Rashford scored the chance.

I am debating a single issue here, the idea that Pogba created chances against Southampton that which Rashford should have scored from, this is simply a false claim and it is confirmed by the a statistical model from the leading stats company in football, one that Premier League clubs pays big money to subscribe to.

The good thing about statistics is that the strip away the levels of bias that we are all prone to.

McTom proved in preseason he's a capable passer.....that being said he hit 'that' pass in a general direction as hard as he could to clear the ball down field....it ended up where it did. Unless you want to claim he intended exactly what happened ?

If I pass the ball to someone in the box facing the goal with only the keeper in front of them, and they shoot and the keeper saves it.....I'm sorry I don't know how else I'd describe that pass.

Your levels of bias are the issue and it hasn't stripped them at all.
 

kouroux

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I disagree. It enables us to have deeper and more accurate analysis. It also helps to cut through bias which obfuscates reality.

I think if you really looked into xG modelling you would agree that it is very useful in some areas, specifically quality of chances created and how a team performs generally in a game.
Honestly I don't need to and I have never needed it before. I will always use my eye test and a few reliable sources. Stats don't take into account certain details and context and can never give one a full representation of things
 

Cassidy

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McTom proved in preseason he's a capable passer.....that being said he hit 'that' pass in a general direction as hard as he could to clear the ball down field....it ended up where it did. Unless you want to claim he intended exactly what happened ?

If I pass the ball to someone in the box facing the goal with only the keeper in front of them, and they shoot and the keeper saves it.....I'm sorry I don't know how else I'd describe that pass.

Your levels of bias are the issue and it hasn't stripped them at all.
That is irrelevant because it ended up in the best chance we had to score, hence why in the stat his xA is better than Pogbas
 
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Classical Mechanic

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McTom proved in preseason he's a capable passer.....that being said he hit 'that' pass in a general direction as hard as he could to clear the ball down field....it ended up where it did. Unless you want to claim he intended exactly what happened ?

If I pass the ball to someone in the box facing the goal with only the keeper in front of them, and they shoot and the keeper saves it.....I'm sorry I don't know how else I'd describe that pass.

Your levels of bias are the issue and it hasn't stripped them at all.
I feel you are creating a straw man argument here. Whatever McT's intentions a chance was created not, a great one, but a chance all the same. This has nothing to do with the quality of chances that Pogba created in this game.

I don't see how you can accuse me of bias when I'm using Opta data entirely to assess the quality of Pogba's chances in this game. They assess the quality of the chances by how many players have scored from the same types of passes in the same situation.

Honestly I don't need to and I have never needed it before. I will always use my eye test and a few reliable sources. Stats don't take into account certain details and context and can never give one a full representation of things
xG and xA is a much more advanced model and not anywhere near as flawed as something like key passes which is much more context driven.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Interesting thing about Pogba and xA is that he significantly outperforms his xA, even at United, which suggest that his teammates aren't letting him down, in this regard at least, as the narrative on here so often is on here.

https://understat.com/player/1740

Messi, on the other hand vastly outperforms his xG and but under-performs on his xA, which suggests that while he makes his creative teammates look better by scoring many improbable chances, his attacking teammates let him down by squandering good chances he creates.

https://understat.com/player/2097
 

Cassidy

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Interesting thing about Pogba and xA is that he significantly outperforms his xA, even at United, which suggest that his teammates aren't letting him down, in this regard at least, as the narrative on here so often is on here.

https://understat.com/player/1740

Messi, on the other hand vastly outperforms his xG and but under-performs on his xA, which suggests that while he makes his creative teammates look better by scoring many improbable chances, his attacking teammates let him down by squandering good chances he creates.

https://understat.com/player/2097
This is where you would need to watch the videos and do the eye test. Could be remembering wrong, but I distinctly remember a season with Ibra where he created so many chances that were missed. We missed a lot of chances that season as a team
 

Classical Mechanic

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This is where you would need to watch the videos and do the eye test. Could be remembering wrong, but I distinctly remember a season with Ibra where he created so many chances that were missed. We missed a lot of chances that season as a team
Let's say that even Ibra did miss those chance that doesn't mean that his stats were not inflated by other players making the most of lesser chances.

I agree though that it doesn't tell the whole story, especially over a season. To use the Ibra example: he scored well from range so a simple pass from Pogba outside the box that was then scored would see Pobga outperforming his xA significantly in a given game.

I'd say it's much much better when looking at a single game when its relatively fresh and you can pick it apart. But then a trend over a number of seasons gives further food for thought. I'm sure the service the Premier League clubs pay for goes far deeper into than we can here.

I think with Messi it just shows that has incredible stats are even more incredible when you look even deeper into it.
 
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