Westminster Politics

Dan_F

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It is an over generalisation to class all people with a second home as wealthy.

Lots of people have a second home which is used for rental.
While many choose to invest that way but have a mortgage.

It is nothing special to have one.
Of course most people will rent out their second home. Having grown up in Cornwall I can completely understand the anger around them though. Not only does it take all those houses off the market, forcing the prices up, but they’re empty outside of summer. Meaning the local economy is screwed and wages are dreadful.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52854699

Take this article for example. Of the two people they’ve spoken to, one is paying £2000 a month rent. It’s probably difficult for anyone outside of London to have sympathy for them.

The other person doesn’t want to take a mortgage holiday, as it might effect her ability to re mortgage her other properties. Again, hard to find any sympathy, that’s the risk you take if you’re buying multiple properties.
 

Grinner

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Thanks for the reply and sharing your opinion. Makes more sense to do that than warn me about the post with no explanation (as Grinner did). Don't get me wrong I think theres a tough job to be done in the CE forum but I do think it's a particular unwelcoming place for some posters who aren't in the 'clique' who live in there 24/7. Infact I pretty much know this to be the case from discussions with a number of other posters.

As I'm sure you're aware I was called an idiot by one poster for expressing an opinion that US culture is the biggest problem when it comes to racism, shootings and the like. It's not, in my opinion, as simple as just reforming the police as they represent the society and society is the problem. I was then ganged up on by a number of other posters and given abuse. When I responded back and called someone a 'feckwit' I was given two warning points and a thread ban. If that's how we operate in the CE forum is it any wonder some won't bother contributing? And before anyone looks the posts have now been moderated and deleted although you can see afterwards other posters point out how it's wrong that any other discussion or opinion gets shut down/abused by certain groups.

You would have been banned years ago if it weren't for me sticking up for you and that was when a lot more leeway was given to people like you who think they can insult other posters at will. Your warning clearly states that "These warnings are often the result of overly-negative, hysterical, provocative, childish, poorly formulated or just plain pointless posts.

Sometimes a particular post will be linked to this warning, giving you an example post and asking you to consider your posting style more carefully. If the staff feel it's part of a pattern of posting then it can lead to additional warning points, posting restrictions or even a ban."


Just follow the rules and you should be able to keep posting here. It's pretty simple really. Moaning about the moderation team won't get you much sympathy the next time you call somebody a feckwitt. But looking at your back catalogue of infractions I'd say it's only a matter of time really.
 

Feed Me

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Yeah I'd agree. It seems the centre ground died when the credibility of the Lib Dems did in the UK. It seems now you have to be one extreme or the other or else you get lambasted for having another view.
It’s funny because if you go back to the turn of the century then I’d say Labour held the centre ground with Lib Dems veering more towards the left. The Lib Dems were forced more to the centre in coalition with the Tories while the Labour party, unfortunately, took a hard left turn under Corbyn and the country is suffering the consequences of that now.

I agree with your point about polar extremes. That’s not just in politics though, but wider society. Everyone is too time poor for nuance, which is why they like ‘hot takes’ and these are invariably zero sum.
 

TheReligion

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You would have been banned years ago if it weren't for me sticking up for you and that was when a lot more leeway was given to people like you who think they can insult other posters at will. Your warning clearly states that "These warnings are often the result of overly-negative, hysterical, provocative, childish, poorly formulated or just plain pointless posts.

Sometimes a particular post will be linked to this warning, giving you an example post and asking you to consider your posting style more carefully. If the staff feel it's part of a pattern of posting then it can lead to additional warning points, posting restrictions or even a ban."


Just follow the rules and you should be able to keep posting here. It's pretty simple really. Moaning about the moderation team won't get you much sympathy the next time you call somebody a feckwitt. But looking at your back catalogue of infractions I'd say it's only a matter of time really.
I know you won't openly say on here but you're old school and there's no way in hell you'd agree with giving infraction points out for calling someone (who had just insulted you) a feckwit. It's classic Caf and as mild as it comes. I guess for most people its about being as consistent as possible and that's usually where my gripe is. I appreciate it's difficult.
 

Flying high

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It’s funny because if you go back to the turn of the century then I’d say Labour held the centre ground with Lib Dems veering more towards the left. The Lib Dems were forced more to the centre in coalition with the Tories while the Labour party, unfortunately, took a hard left turn under Corbyn and the country is suffering the consequences of that now.

I agree with your point about polar extremes. That’s not just in politics though, but wider society. Everyone is too time poor for nuance, which is why they like ‘hot takes’ and these are invariably zero sum.
The country is suffering at the hands of ideologically driven right wing nut jobs. They are typically the ones ignoring nuance and playing to the ill-informed with the lowest type of politicking.

But sure, that's just another reason to blame the left.
 

TheReligion

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The country is suffering at the hands of ideologically driven right wing nut jobs. They are typically the ones ignoring nuance and playing to the ill-informed with the lowest type of politicking.

But sure, that's just another reason to blame the left.
I think that's the point. The Labour party under Corbyn had become the direct polar opposite to the hard right traditional Conservatives. So much so those who were based around the centre were sucked in by Boris and his campaign based around him promoting the new breed of Tory as near centre and more in touch with the average person. This was evident by the sheer amount of working class seats that turned blue and those marginals that the Labour party surrendered without fight.

It's arguable that has Labour remained closer to the centre as it has in the past we wouldn't have had the landslide victory the Tory party enjoyed recently.
 

Feed Me

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The country is suffering at the hands of ideologically driven right wing nut jobs. They are typically the ones ignoring nuance and playing to the ill-informed with the lowest type of politicking.

But sure, that's just another reason to blame the left.
You’re just as guilty of polarising politics with your post...
 

Feed Me

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I think that's the point. The Labour party under Corbyn had become the direct polar opposite to the hard right traditional Conservatives. So much so those who were based around the centre were sucked in by Boris and his campaign based around him promoting the new breed of Tory as near centre and more in touch with the average person. This was evident by the sheer amount of working class seats that turned blue and those marginals that the Labour party surrendered without fight.

It's arguable that has Labour remained closer to the centre as it has in the past we wouldn't have had the landslide victory the Tory party enjoyed recently.
Second paragraph is spot on.

Tories won the last election by default, because vast swathes of voters didn’t consider Corbyn and Co. to be a viable alternative.

A more moderate, centrist Labour government with a sensible policy agenda can win the next election, especially when you look at how badly the Conservatives are botching things at the moment.

I know Starmer is catching a lot of heat for his perceived failure to twist the knife during Cumgate, but I think his approach has been spot on. I also like that naked partisanship doesn’t seem to be his default setting.

Time will tell, of course.
 

Flying high

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I think that's the point. The Labour party under Corbyn had become the direct polar opposite to the hard right traditional Conservatives. So much so those who were based around the centre were sucked in by Boris and his campaign based around him promoting the new breed of Tory as near centre and more in touch with the average person. This was evident by the sheer amount of working class seats that turned blue and those marginals that the Labour party surrendered without fight.

It's arguable that has Labour remained closer to the centre as it has in the past we wouldn't have had the landslide victory the Tory party enjoyed recently.
You're probably right there. But is this the fault of the left who, under Corbyn, finally offered a legitimate possibility of addressing the growing inequality and injustices in this country? Or is it the fault of the money men who actually own this country through media influence and bought politicians?

The game is rigged, but it's your fault that you lost.
 

Feed Me

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Please, tell me which part of my post is inaccurate?
I didn’t say it was inaccurate.

I was just pointing out that you appeared to be taking a partisan stance.

The whole left-right narrative cheapens political discourse.

I have been pretty scathing about the Tory handling of the Covid-19 crisis, but not because I lean leftwards, simply because they have done a shit job.

I personally yearn for a bit more consensus politics, where every single debate doesn’t get synthesised down to a zero sum game of left versus right.
 

TheReligion

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You're probably right there. But is this the fault of the left who, under Corbyn, finally offered a legitimate possibility of addressing the growing inequality and injustices in this country? Or is it the fault of the money men who actually own this country through media influence and bought politicians?

The game is rigged, but it's your fault that you lost.
I think at the moment society itself seems to want a mixture of extremes with anyone who doesn't want to play that game gets called for sitting on the fence. I guess it's in part due to the divide caused by Brexit and the narrative around if you want to remain you're a soft leftie and if you want to leave your a right wing extremist. It's as if it isn't possible to share a mixture of views and ideals; you have to be put in one box or the other. Similar is happening around the world to be honest and usually does when people yearn for a radical change.
 

Full bodied red

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I personally yearn for a bit more consensus politics, where every single debate doesn’t get synthesised down to a zero sum game of left versus right.

In which case it might be better not to look at Football Fan Forums if you're expecting a cerebral response from people who don't share your opinion.

There's probably a Millwall Fan Forum somewhere which is the polar opposite of Redcafe when they're discussing politics and where you'd get a five point warning for saying Starmer has a nice haircut.
 

Mr Pigeon

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Second paragraph is spot on.

Tories won the last election by default, because vast swathes of voters didn’t consider Corbyn and Co. to be a viable alternative.

A more moderate, centrist Labour government with a sensible policy agenda can win the next election, especially when you look at how badly the Conservatives are botching things at the moment.

I know Starmer is catching a lot of heat for his perceived failure to twist the knife during Cumgate, but I think his approach has been spot on. I also like that naked partisanship doesn’t seem to be his default setting.

Time will tell, of course.
Starmer probably knows if he complains about everything it'll become tedious. When he does finally complain about something you can bet it'll be something that's a big deal.
 

RedChip

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For all her faults, you could see May shrinking right before our eyes with each failure. She at least had the self awareness to realise she was failing. There is no sign of that with Johnson and his minions, which makes me think they really think they are doing fantastically. We are basically living through the experiment of how much damage can a truly incompetent administration do to the UK, and I fear we will see much more damage.
 

Flying high

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I think at the moment society itself seems to want a mixture of extremes with anyone who doesn't want to play that game gets called for sitting on the fence. I guess it's in part due to the divide caused by Brexit and the narrative around if you want to remain you're a soft leftie and if you want to leave your a right wing extremist. It's as if it isn't possible to share a mixture of views and ideals; you have to be put in one box or the other. Similar is happening around the world to be honest and usually does when people yearn for a radical change.
I look at climate change and wonder what those on the right can possibly be arguing against.

I look at growing inequality in this country, the lack of empathy to those in war-torn or food deprived countries, the ongoing(failed) war on drugs, the criminalisation of addicts and the simultaneous cutting of services that help them, blaming of immigrants whilst cutting services to aid integration and affected communities, the ostracising of those with physical and mental disabilities, the lack of focus upon critical thinking skills taught in schools, the privatisation of the NHS/schools/prisons/mail, Grenfell, Jo Cox, cutting of legal aid, tuition fees, executive pay, off-shore accounting and tax avoidance etc etc.

The conservative party has, at the very least, exacerbated all of these problems. I see the left as being on the correct side of nearly every argument you can have with regards to public policy. While Teresa May stands on the steps of downing street talking about the 'jams', no one believed her, did they? They knew that, at most, we'd see some slight tinkering at the edges. Some massaging of figures and we'd all carry on as normal. Just as their party donors demand.

Public opinion indicates strong support for many of the arguments from the left. The tories got 43.6% of the vote share. Apart from maybe the brexit party on 2%, everyone else can be considered to the left of their them, so... a majority, if you like. Like May and Cameron before, Boris used the 'moving to the centre' lie to stop people who would probably fit better with lib dem policies should the tories be brave(stupid) enough to advertise their true intentions. The consensus IS there to be found, but the lies are pretty much entirely coming from the side who lost the argument, but managed to win the rigged war, once again.

So what do you do if you're on the left? Bend to the centre, I hear many say. But in practice, that means that when the Labour party next get into power, they are only able to make the smallest of changes or the cries of MARXIST! get so loud that it becomes paralysing. Without radical change, any small changes made will be dwarfed by the chunks taken out of our society the next time the conservatives get in, and Labour will once again have 'abandonded the working classes'.

So consensus would be great. But until we have a press that is prepared to consistantly challenge the lies, the liars will profit. While I don't want to stop any criticism of the left, or Labour in particular. It's important to remember that the peddlers of 'trickle-down' economics and austerity were wrong, if they ever actually believed it in the first place. And that, without their self-professed 'best for the economy' tag, they fail miserably at nearly everything apart from making the richest even richer. So when making sweeping statements about how incompetent the left apparently is, or they only care about identity politics, or whatever the right wing attack narrative of the day is, remember who is slowly eroding this country right now.
 

Berbasbullet

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I look at climate change and wonder what those on the right can possibly be arguing against.

I look at growing inequality in this country, the lack of empathy to those in war-torn or food deprived countries, the ongoing(failed) war on drugs, the criminalisation of addicts and the simultaneous cutting of services that help them, blaming of immigrants whilst cutting services to aid integration and affected communities, the ostracising of those with physical and mental disabilities, the lack of focus upon critical thinking skills taught in schools, the privatisation of the NHS/schools/prisons/mail, Grenfell, Jo Cox, cutting of legal aid, tuition fees, executive pay, off-shore accounting and tax avoidance etc etc.

The conservative party has, at the very least, exacerbated all of these problems. I see the left as being on the correct side of nearly every argument you can have with regards to public policy. While Teresa May stands on the steps of downing street talking about the 'jams', no one believed her, did they? They knew that, at most, we'd see some slight tinkering at the edges. Some massaging of figures and we'd all carry on as normal. Just as their party donors demand.

Public opinion indicates strong support for many of the arguments from the left. The tories got 43.6% of the vote share. Apart from maybe the brexit party on 2%, everyone else can be considered to the left of their them, so... a majority, if you like. Like May and Cameron before, Boris used the 'moving to the centre' lie to stop people who would probably fit better with lib dem policies should the tories be brave(stupid) enough to advertise their true intentions. The consensus IS there to be found, but the lies are pretty much entirely coming from the side who lost the argument, but managed to win the rigged war, once again.

So what do you do if you're on the left? Bend to the centre, I hear many say. But in practice, that means that when the Labour party next get into power, they are only able to make the smallest of changes or the cries of MARXIST! get so loud that it becomes paralysing. Without radical change, any small changes made will be dwarfed by the chunks taken out of our society the next time the conservatives get in, and Labour will once again have 'abandonded the working classes'.

So consensus would be great. But until we have a press that is prepared to consistantly challenge the lies, the liars will profit. While I don't want to stop any criticism of the left, or Labour in particular. It's important to remember that the peddlers of 'trickle-down' economics and austerity were wrong, if they ever actually believed it in the first place. And that, without their self-professed 'best for the economy' tag, they fail miserably at nearly everything apart from making the richest even richer. So when making sweeping statements about how incompetent the left apparently is, or they only care about identity politics, or whatever the right wing attack narrative of the day is, remember who is slowly eroding this country right now.
Excellent post.
 

BobbyManc

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Second paragraph is spot on.

Tories won the last election by default, because vast swathes of voters didn’t consider Corbyn and Co. to be a viable alternative.

A more moderate, centrist Labour government with a sensible policy agenda can win the next election, especially when you look at how badly the Conservatives are botching things at the moment.
From Blair to Brown to Miliband Labour had been atrophying in seats throughout the north and the midlands. It's such a laughable and simplistic idea to say that Labour's problem under Corbyn was not being 'centrist' enough. It has very little grounding in reality and is not substantiated by even a cursory analysis of election results this century. If 'centrism' is what we need, why did the process of Labour's decline begin under Blair and only see a partial but brief respite in 2017 under the most left-wing candidate? Why have the Lib Dems failed to benefit and why did Change UK disappear from the scene as quickly as it entered? Why did the Tories fare so well in these seats that you suggest were crying out for 'centrism' after Johnson came in with his flagship policy of a hard-Brexit (by no stretch of the imagination a 'centrist' policy) and purged the party of stalwart moderates like Ken Clarke?

The reality is the bond between class and political identity has largely disappeared, with Labour, the party of the working-class, naturally the big losers in this process. Addressing why that process which predates Corbyn happened and what can be done to reconnect with these voters is essential. Can we drop these lazy, boring and ahistorical narratives because they are wrong and do nothing to answer the question of how Labour can get back to winning elections under Starmer.
 

Fluctuation0161

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You're probably right there. But is this the fault of the left who, under Corbyn, finally offered a legitimate possibility of addressing the growing inequality and injustices in this country? Or is it the fault of the money men who actually own this country through media influence and bought politicians?

The game is rigged, but it's your fault that you lost.
Exactly. Spot on.

The UK media is very right leaning in comparison with other European countries. Funny how Corbyn was painted a a "Russian commie". Yet we have Boris and co. not releasing the Russian report, having parties with Russian billionaires while his dodgy advisor Cummings spent 3-4yrs living in Russia in the 90s.
 

caid

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Re - the attitude and bullying of the CE forum.
My opinion is that people having been acting a bit precious recently. I kind of think calling someone a feckwit (and being called a feckwit) the odd time should be standard practice. The odd heated debate wouldn't hurt imo.
 

Maticmaker

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Your message needs to be broadcast loud and clear on here, some are still living in Noddy land!


Will she be resigning?
I was talking about her comments on Newsnight, right or wrong they were certainly not impartial... pot... kettle.... black comes to mind!
 

TheReligion

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Re - the attitude and bullying of the CE forum.
My opinion is that people having been acting a bit precious recently. I kind of think calling someone a feckwit (and being called a feckwit) the odd time should be standard practice. The odd heated debate wouldn't hurt imo.
Calling someone a feckwit (in response to being called an idiot I might add) gets you 2 infraction points and a thread ban these days.

Worrying times.
 

Flying high

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I was talking about her comments on Newsnight, right or wrong they were certainly not impartial... pot... kettle.... black comes to mind!
What she said was correct though, she was summing up the mood of a huge chunk of the nation. It was the lead story. Does she have to dig up something bad about labour straight after just to be impartial?
 

Feed Me

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From Blair to Brown to Miliband Labour had been atrophying in seats throughout the north and the midlands. It's such a laughable and simplistic idea to say that Labour's problem under Corbyn was not being 'centrist' enough. It has very little grounding in reality and is not substantiated by even a cursory analysis of election results this century. If 'centrism' is what we need, why did the process of Labour's decline begin under Blair and only see a partial but brief respite in 2017 under the most left-wing candidate? Why have the Lib Dems failed to benefit and why did Change UK disappear from the scene as quickly as it entered? Why did the Tories fare so well in these seats that you suggest were crying out for 'centrism' after Johnson came in with his flagship policy of a hard-Brexit (by no stretch of the imagination a 'centrist' policy) and purged the party of stalwart moderates like Ken Clarke?

The reality is the bond between class and political identity has largely disappeared, with Labour, the party of the working-class, naturally the big losers in this process. Addressing why that process which predates Corbyn happened and what can be done to reconnect with these voters is essential. Can we drop these lazy, boring and ahistorical narratives because they are wrong and do nothing to answer the question of how Labour can get back to winning elections under Starmer.
There’s a lot wrong with this analysis. I have to put the kids to bed, so some very quick fire responses and I will try and come back later on today:

- Decline beginning under Blair - various circumstances at play, including negative PR from Iraq / WMD, plus the likely impact of fatigue amongst the electorate after a reasonably long spell of New Labour government

- Partial but brief respite in 2017? Corbyn was very good at mobilising support across a certain cross section of society, but guess what – he still fecking lost! And against one of the weakest Tory leaders ever

- A lot of people voted Tory at the last election with a heavy heart because they felt it was the least worst option. You can get your knickers in a twist all you like, but Corbyn was not considered viable by a big enough proportion of the population – he got an absolute hammering

- You are very good at branding my view as lazy. But you haven’t actually communicated how you think Starmer can win an election. Come on, let’s have it...
 

Smores

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I was talking about her comments on Newsnight, right or wrong they were certainly not impartial... pot... kettle.... black comes to mind!
If you take impartial to always mean both sides views are represented as equally worthy then sure. But then her interview with Andrew wasn't impartial either or general reporting about a myriad of issues.

The idea that every other Newsnight story is represented as all parties being equal irrespective of fact would lead to some terrible reporting.
 

Maticmaker

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If you take impartial to always mean both sides views are represented as equally worthy then sure.
Yes, that is what a national impartial broadcaster should do, people can make up their own minds about what might be right or wrong; however once a report becomes 'slanted' by the personal views of the reporter it is no longer impartial.
Newsnight by its nature is meant to be an impartial news broadcast presenting the days events as they occurred, at least that's what it started off as, unfortunately it now has become a vehicle for self-styled 'celebrity' reporters to display their personal views and prejudices and to make a name for themselves. Instead of reporting news, they now see it as part of their role to make the news.
 

Smores

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Yes, that is what a national impartial broadcaster should do, people can make up their own minds about what might be right or wrong; however once a report becomes 'slanted' by the personal views of the reporter it is no longer impartial.
Newsnight by its nature is meant to be an impartial news broadcast presenting the days events as they occurred, at least that's what it started off as, unfortunately it now has become a vehicle for self-styled 'celebrity' reporters to display their personal views and prejudices and to make a name for themselves. Instead of reporting news, they now see it as part of their role to make the news.
So there's no story that should be reported without equal favour to both sides? Not sure you've thought this through to be honest

Also Newsnight isn't News at 10, do you not see a difference?