These people keep on comparing one of the best managers in the word‘s rise to Ole Solskjaer, only deluded Utd fans can do that
As if Klopp relegated Mainz and won a title in Switzerland or something ... Idiots
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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As if Klopp relegated Mainz and won a title in Switzerland or something ... Idiots
If it gets locked, it will be because of a good reason, like the discussion going off topic or people going around in circles when there's no matches on, and not indefinitely. Same reason as when a player performance thread gets bumped with gossip from time to time.
He did actually relegate MainzThese people keep on comparing one of the best managers in the word‘s rise to Ole Solskjaer, only deluded Utd fans can do that
As if Klopp relegated Mainz and won a title in Switzerland or something ... Idiots
Ole in/out discussion will always exist. Getting rid of or locking a thread won't stop it.
For instance, had the sack/keep thread stayed open, this thread might not have been polluted with that discussion to such a degree. This was supposed to be the more balanced Ole performance thread, but due to locking that other thread, the in/out discussion has basically carried on in here (and elsewhere).
People choosing to ignore each other is one thing, depending on context it can be cowardly, but some people are just so bad that others can only take so much bullshit. But I 100% agree with the calls for bans and thread locking being rawkesque, it's been increasing with intensity since Fergie left. The fanbase has had a collective meltdown for nearly a decade.
I meant DortmundHe did actually relegate Mainz
RiiiiiiightI meant Dortmund
Whoops, I made a hyperbolic comment about locking the thread. But it wasn't remotely serious and was more a dig at the nauseating Klopp/Ole conversations which are somehow still going on. Sorry folks
OK, to get a few things out of the way:
Firstly, I have never put a poster on ignore and I probably never will.
Secondly, I respect different opinions. I have no issue with the opinion that Ole should be sacked. I highly disagree and find the arguments incredibly weak(often beyond stupid), but that doesn't mean that I want posters with this opinion banned. I have no issue with the vast majority of them.
Like with everything in this world though, there exists a small minority that are extremely negative, loud and toxic. It is this select small group that I find cancerous. They spread their extreme negativity and frankly shitty takes all over the forum and it has ruined the experience for many posters. Some have stopped posting because of it, others only post in the general forum now. It has gotten to the point that even when we don't drop points we can still somehow expect more negativity than positivity. It's ridiculous and a really bad look for United supporters, imo.
It's funny that you bring up RAWK, because I've felt "guilty" laughing at them since I know that we have just as bad posters among our own ranks. There may be fewer of them, but they are just as loud and noticeable.
Anyways, back to my main point: don't close this thread. It will only make the forum worse.
Let me ensure you, that the user experience for somebody who isn't able to join the party yet because he simply isn't convinced is also not the greatest. I agree with the loud minority thing, I agree that some statements are over the top. But that is how I feel about some of the praise as well. It is all about perspective. And this riling-up thing in other threads you talk about is sometimes also started by the "ole-defenders" after good performances, when the chance is there to hit out. We have extremists on both sides, which is ok because they offer the impulses to discuss. And that is, why I'm personally here. I don't care if my stance is the majority position or not. I already learned it isn't. But I am curious to find out, what makes other people so convinced because I may have missed something.
Back to topic: There was a poster who argued, that Ole improved the abilities of some players. He didn't want to go into detail - maybe my question sounded like a trap so I try again:
Can somebody who shares the opinion of said user give me a few bullet points which of our players has improved what specifically and what do you think was Ole's role in that?
There are very few posters that are over-the-top with their praise. We have maybe one or two posters like that. One of them got banned for it
If I had to pick between snark based on positivity and snark based on negativity, I'd choose the former any day of the week as a United fan.
I have no idea what Ole's role has been as I haven't been on the training ground. Nor can I prove that their improvement is natural(based on more experience) or based on good coaching. But many players have improved under Ole compared to under Mourinho:
Significant improvement:
- Shaw
- Fred
- McTominay
- Rashford
Minor improvement:
- Lindelof
- Pogba
- Martial
Yeah you know, at which point something becomes over-the-top is pretty subjective so there is that, I guess ^^There are very few posters that are over-the-top with their praise. We have maybe one or two posters like that. One of them got banned for it
That is certainly the best decision for your mental and overall health and I would strongly advise everybody to take that approach anywhere if possible. But at the end of the day snarky stuff rarely does something good. So getting rid entirely would be the ideal (but sadly utopian) scenario.
Thanks for taking the time to answer the question. I partly agree with the observation:
Most of the players you named are good and reliable squad members. But have they really improved their skills? Did they add something positive to their game? Did they get rid of something negative?
Currently we enjoy the best Shaw since the leg break. I also think that Fred and McTominay are improved.
For all the praise Shaw gets, for me personally he still isn't as good as he was before injury. The injury set him back, Mourinhos tough love did him no favour and now he is slowly getting back to his (in my view) natural level.
Has Fred improved? I am not sure, I think he was very below par when under Mourinho. He was erratic in his technique. He added the endless energy but that was probably already there. The good passes he sometimes does could be seen in videos from Shakthar as well.
McTominay became a very reliable player. Big mentality. He added these driving runs into his game and is a good shooter (but he was an attacking player in his youth so these abilities were probably there already and he needed to gain confidence to execute them). But apart from that, his passing didn't change much. Overall technique neither. Defensive positioning still an issue.
Rashford was quite good last season. Same as Martial. But they are young attackers, experience is more key there in my opinion. This year both of them have issues. We don't need to talk about Martial, might have been a single purple patch last season, but with Rashford, I feel his finishing is gone a bit this season and his decision making is back to its worst (last year it was mostly alright).
I don't see improvement in Pogba. He is mostly the same player as the one we got from Juve. He added nothing (sounds worse than it is because his arsenal is as stacked as it gets skillwise). What changes from time to time is his commitment. Lindelof I don't see it as well, he has been heavily criticized this season, a few good matches in the last weeks are great, hopefully the start of a trend, but I can't see particular improvement, just as passive while defending, mostly just as bad aerially. He got a bit better dealing with powerful strikers I think, isn't bullied as much as before.
I know this is very subjective and I don't claim any deeper knowledge. It would still be interesting to hear more thoughts on that particular subject.
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Personally think it's hilarious when agenda posters say ole has lost all these semi finals... Do they not realise it is unusual to be in so many semi finals
Of course it’s not comparable because last summer/this January our board didn't give a single player of Ole's primary targets to upgrade and improve the XI. While Liverpool board give Klopp the players he needed to upgrade and improve the XI in each of those rebuilding years before they won something. Would they still do the same if in 17/18 their board didn't give the players that manager needed to upgrade and improve the XI?
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Calling the guy's argument biased is the same shit mate. Which it is not because the spurs team now doesn’t have prime Aldeweireld, Vertonghen, Trippier, Eriksen, Rose. That's 5 players in their regular XI. Please do not ignoring that and I even use John Terry 14/15 and 15/16, 16/17 as example to counter your excuse ''only 1 year older difference''.
Come on! If you are going to reply the post and disagree with it then counter them, don't just ignore them and starting making new non-sense about chicken and egg
So you are talking off the topic then.
Luke Shaw:
- Under Mourinho: A talented left back who is being written off and people started to talk about new left back is needed because people didn't think he can fulfil his potential anymore. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/new-left-back.426899/
- 18/19 when Ole was hired: He won our POTS and yet people still have doubt in him and talked about new left back to upgrade him. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/new-left-back.426899/page-27
- 19/20 showing improvement and being well developed. Some people started to change their mind about it but there are still people who doubt in him. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/left-back-position.457175/
- 20/21 now turning into one of the best left back in the league:
- People questioned Luke Shaw ability going forward before but now, had 5 PL assists and among the top one out there in term of creating chances (see below pictures taken early this month for more detail).
- For more detail in comparison to other LB in the PL (see also pictures below, taken now). And you can see that Shaw is better in most of the aspects.
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He didn't bring the prime-time factor into equation, if anything his point is the same point as mine thus why I said invalid if he read the 2nd paragraph of the post he replied.
It's incredible how someone like you still can't see the improvement within our players from before Ole took in charged to now. These are bunch of players that were written off and questioned when they were under Mourinho and now people started to believe they can actually fulfil their potential. Well, it's not like I can take it from your own mouth because so far you provided nothing to back it up.
People who ask for proof of whom Ole improved specifically are also presumably the ones who think/suggest that the football is as bad as it was under Lvg/Mourinho which is not even debatable if they were being honest with themselves. They will find something to complain about even if we were to win a league title of how we still paid some imaginary opportunity loss by hiring a middling manager who would not get a job at any top 10 club. I suppose that is still an improvement from those PE teacher jibes.
These people keep on comparing one of the best managers in the word‘s rise to Ole Solskjaer, only deluded Utd fans can do that
As if Klopp relegated Mainz and won a title in Switzerland or something ... Idiots
Do your research first, he relegated Mainz.The point is that even a proven manager like Klopp needed time to build and develop his squad and players. So why do other manager with less proven cannot have time to build and develop their squad and players. If the logic is only proven manager on the similar level as Klopp is allowed to have time then nobody else out there available for us to hire, that will be a stupid logic which I hope that's not what you and others had in mind.
Well Haaland certainly doesn't hold your view either which excludes all billionaire owned clubs for moral reasons and Barcelona for having a motto which seemingly annoys you.
Shaw has probably had the most drastic improvement of any United player under Solskjaer. He was written off and labelled a flop and has completely turned it around, especially this season.Luke Shaw:
- Under Mourinho: A talented left back who is being written off and people started to talk about new left back is needed because people didn't think he can fulfil his potential anymore. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/new-left-back.426899/
- 18/19 when Ole was hired: He won our POTS and yet people still have doubt in him and talked about new left back to upgrade him. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/new-left-back.426899/page-27
- 19/20 showing improvement and being well developed. Some people started to change their mind about it but there are still people who doubt in him. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/left-back-position.457175/
- 20/21 now turning into one of the best left back in the league:
- People questioned Luke Shaw ability going forward before but now, had 5 PL assists and among the top one out there in term of creating chances (see below pictures taken early this month for more detail).
- For more detail in comparison to other LB in the PL (see also pictures below, taken now). And you can see that Shaw is better in most of the aspects.
He didn't bring the prime-time factor into equation, if anything his point is the same point as mine thus why I said invalid if he read the 2nd paragraph of the post he replied.
It's incredible how someone like you still can't see the improvement within our players from before Ole took in charged to now. These are bunch of players that were written off and questioned when they were under Mourinho and now people started to believe they can actually fulfil their potential. Well, it's not like I can take it from your own mouth because so far you provided nothing to back it up.
Well, obviously. They are my views, which was kind of the entire point. This whole “if you were Haaland, what would you do?” Is silly, as he probably don’t feel the same way as I do, or as you do, or as anyone in this thread do really.
And I don’t have a problem with Barcelona’s motto, I have a problem with what they’ve become as a club, which contradicts their proud motto so much it’s borderline hilarious.
Wow, great contribution to the debate. Thanks, so glad you shared your wisdom. "Somebody who does X also does Y and is probably Z". So much life experience, I feel the goosebumps.
Ride on cowboy, your high horse seems thirsty. How about answering my question on your own? Oh no sorry I forgot, that would be more difficult to do.
Thanks for taking the time. I will have a look at that and come back.Luke Shaw:
- Under Mourinho: A talented left back who is being written off and people started to talk about new left back is needed because people didn't think he can fulfil his potential anymore. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/new-left-back.426899/
- 18/19 when Ole was hired: He won our POTS and yet people still have doubt in him and talked about new left back to upgrade him. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/new-left-back.426899/page-27
- 19/20 showing improvement and being well developed. Some people started to change their mind about it but there are still people who doubt in him. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/left-back-position.457175/
- 20/21 now turning into one of the best left back in the league:
- People questioned Luke Shaw ability going forward before but now, had 5 PL assists and among the top one out there in term of creating chances (see below pictures taken early this month for more detail).
- For more detail in comparison to other LB in the PL (see also pictures below, taken now). And you can see that Shaw is better in most of the aspects.
How can I back something up that in my view is not really there? ^^ That's the reason why I ask in the first place. So thanks again for providing me something to think and talk about.
And just to make sure, my point comes across correctly: Obviously I see that our players play differently now than in comparison to a few years ago. I see that. I also agree that there is a positive development since the end of Mourinho. What I question is, to how much of an extent is that a result of Ole actions, of Mourinhos non-actions and the team setup change.
Example 1: If a relegation team decides to focus anything on defense, become very compact, work hard to shore up any gaps, defending becomes easier, individual players will get higher values in tackles and interceptions, xGA will decrease. But the players haven't improved individually. The team setup has changed so it is easier for the individuals to perform a certain task.
Example 2: If Pirlo takes C. Ronaldo and asks him to play Centre Back, his Goals and Assists will decrease because of that, right? Would the issue you have with Pirlo be that he made a stupid decision to stick him into defense or that he worsened Ronaldos abilities to score and assist?
(Have a look at one of my earlier posts where I responded to another poster who shared his view on that matter, maybe it helps to understand where my stance is based on)
Your examples and points/logic don't suit to what happened to some of our players improvement. Because our players showed improvement year by year under Ole, not just one time improvement and stay on that same level. A good example is if you read the Shaw's case, I showed timeline of Shaw's development and improvement. That's down to combined man management, coaching and player's natural development.
Lot of our players are still very young not in their prime age yet, so it's only natural that some of these players are still in their development age. Once they start hitting 25 or 26, that's the normal age for footballer to hit their full potential. It could be before 25 so it depends on the player.
I didn't quote you, why did you have get defensive and respond directly to me? it was a generic comment on a nothing point which you seem to have made above which waffled on a lot without really saying anything which is what it seems most Ole criticism is nowadays when it's not extreme gymnastics. Someone else replied to you to help you make sense of what you've seen from the team the entire year. There is no other 'wisdom' to be shared other than that.
I think it's clear as day ole has earned another season and a new contract (contracts are meaningless but it would be wierd not to renew in final season, it is a signal). I can't wrap my head around those who think otherwise. The only real argument is we had a collapse in the CL, which I think we can definitely chalk up to ole and his lack of experience fighting in all fronts like this. But even that cl campaign comes with positives.
I do fear for beyond this season. I don't see how ole improves the team beyond here without the playing staff improving, either organically which they will a little as the team is so young or by bringing in players. Ole will want to keep pogba, he wont want ddg on the biggest contract in the league, he will want a striker of the right calibre. It isn't clear that the club can improve the playing staff situation in this environment.
There are managers out there that can get more of a tune out of lesser players and if the squad worsens over the summer I can see the case that going forward we will need a manager like that, a pochettino style manager , as we simply can't get the playing staff near the required level. Ole has done a good job with two academy players plus martial up top but the club so badly needs to improve on that this summer, or maybe ole has brought us as far as he can. He has surprised everyone over and over though and clearly has earned the chance to surprise us again... The new hierarchy at the club I suppose have the possibility to surprise us this summer too
I do fear for beyond this season. I don't see how ole improves the team beyond here without the playing staff improving, either organically which they will a little as the team is so young or by bringing in players. Ole will want to keep pogba, he wont want ddg on the biggest contract in the league, he will want a striker of the right calibre. It isn't clear that the club can improve the playing staff situation in this environment.
There are managers out there that can get more of a tune out of lesser players and if the squad worsens over the summer I can see the case that going forward we will need a manager like that, a pochettino style manager , as we simply can't get the playing staff near the required level. Ole has done a good job with two academy players plus martial up top but the club so badly needs to improve on that this summer, or maybe ole has brought us as far as he can. He has surprised everyone over and over though and clearly has earned the chance to surprise us again... The new hierarchy at the club I suppose have the possibility to surprise us this summer too
I'm not convinced by him, but I think next season is where we see what he's made of.
Can he bring the best out of Rash and Mason?
With a proper CDM and CB, can he play the expansive and attractive football we want to be known for?
If not, then it's probably best that we cut our losses for a better future, but if he can, then I don't think there can be any more doubts.
One thing that needs to be corrected is the dropped points against small teams. We're 11 points behind. 9 points were lost against teams who you've got to routinely beat if you want to win a league.
But the test is really next season.
Can he bring the best out of Rash and Mason?
With a proper CDM and CB, can he play the expansive and attractive football we want to be known for?
If not, then it's probably best that we cut our losses for a better future, but if he can, then I don't think there can be any more doubts.
One thing that needs to be corrected is the dropped points against small teams. We're 11 points behind. 9 points were lost against teams who you've got to routinely beat if you want to win a league.
But the test is really next season.
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Ole is doing a decent job result-wise, but I'm baffled by how shit football we play after two and a half years with him and how many that blame it on personnel. Brighton plays ten times better football with fewer resources. I don't think Ole will do the job in the long run though - taking United to the big trophies. Therefore, I would like to see a manager with a philosophy. Maybe a Potter type. I like him.
I am really pissed. What is he doing? Terrible management today and we need a manager that is actually going for trophies and do not settle for top 4.
I know the owners do not give a shit about Fa cup since it gives little money, but I do.
I can't support a United manager with Arsenal mentality with top 4 as a trophy.
Bruno should start or at least be on after 45 minutes. Shaw should really start too.
I know the owners do not give a shit about Fa cup since it gives little money, but I do.
I can't support a United manager with Arsenal mentality with top 4 as a trophy.
Bruno should start or at least be on after 45 minutes. Shaw should really start too.
Second year in a row complete bottle job by him in FA cup. Key knockout game and he decided to start wihout Bruno and Shaw.
So either he didn't plan their fitness well or (which is more concerning thing) he decided to give chance to players who barely play because it is "just a cup".
We will never win anything with him. Literally anything.
So either he didn't plan their fitness well or (which is more concerning thing) he decided to give chance to players who barely play because it is "just a cup".
We will never win anything with him. Literally anything.
I expect so little and yet he still manages to disappoint
I feel like the players are starting to lose hope in Solskjaer, there's no gameplan on the pitch. It's not attractive to watch at all.
On Oles head yet again. Fred should have been hooked at Ht. resting players before an international break? Just mental all round.
In the bin.
I have sympathy for Ole when I see us in the final third as he has no established striker for the most part, and no proper right winger. But, today and both games vs Milan, I felt the game was surrendered in midfield and that's not really good enough.
But I trust he works on it from here, with the higher ups being changed to understand what's needed.
But I trust he works on it from here, with the higher ups being changed to understand what's needed.
Resting main players in this game is very strange. There is not much reason to do that especially international games are coming after.
He’s doing exactly what the owners want, just about do enough to secure Champions League football, cups are just a distraction. The football has been terrible for a while now, we can barely see coaching in terms of forward play... overall very, very average. This will be a long and painful road until the sacking, as the owners are just fine with how we are doing. I feel sick.
Poor poor management. Nothing else to add.
I can't bare to think of another year with Ole as manager, specially as next season Chelsea and Liverpool will be back to normal. 4th place and horrid football is the best we can hope for as long as he still manager.
But but but all that progress!!!1!!
How many midfielders did we start with and yet we still can't dominate. We're an embarrassment. Even when we win its an absolute slog.
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