Yeah, the pattern being we hire managers who aren't good enough to take us to where we want to be
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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He's dreading the day everybody's back fit. The day there's no one left on a physio table, he'll lace up and two-foot Licha in training so at the next presser he can say, "See, eh? Injuries, eh? We've been very unlucky."
Of course it's close, thats what my point is with ten hag. If the only way you can coach to dominate another team is to have vastly superior players, then you are never going to be successful in the premier league. We were playing Spurs. We are not going to have a vastly superior squad than a team like Spurs. We had a better team out there today, not loads in it but definitely better imo. And we were at home. Them dominating us is 100% down to the impact of the 2 managers.
To succeed in the premier league, your manager has to bridge the gap and prove he is ahead of the others. There is no recruitment team that can cover up for a managers deficiencies. Ten hag has been here for 18 months vs the half season Ange has had. Why are they dominating us at Old Trafford? The answer is coaching, because it certainly isn't player quality when you see Oliver Skipp part of the group dominating us.
You saw the Ronaldo situation. You saw the Sancho situation. You can see how several players' morale is on a knife edge.
Of course he's playing it safe in the press. Why wouldn't he? There's enough real things to criticise him for, not being as entertaining as Jose or as forthright as Rangnick in interviews isn't really one of them.
The teams with the best players win. Not the best manager. Don't fall for the idea managers are magicians. They need the right players on the pitch.
It's not the team with a very debateable slightly better group of players either. Otherwise why are the big clubs out there spending so much? Why not spend way less, just enough and get a better manager?
We can and should have a squad where there's a noticeable gap in quality between us and Spurs. Especially the Spurs XI we saw today with all their injuries. That can't be debatable.
That's not to excuse ETH, he's at least 50% responsible for piss poor recruitment.
Nice little break, a fully fit squad, alot less games to play than alot of teams, I can see a decent run of form coming up.
Part of me thinks that Ineos have their minds made up on him already though, so it'll probably be meaningless.
Part of me thinks that Ineos have their minds made up on him already though, so it'll probably be meaningless.
Thought he's a man of data? He clearly hasn't seen the data for months or else he'll be implementing things on training field, especially in midfield. What's going on, we got scammed?
I'm so glad this is our last match for a very long time. May this break never, ever ends. My excitement for the team was getting killed gradually every season but now it's dead completely. I feel relieved from the fact I don't have to suffer with Man United for some time now. Watching the team has become an obligation rather than a source of entertainment.
We didn't have the best players when Ferguson won the league in 2013, as evidenced by Moyes finishing 7th a year later
Liverpool went 30 years without winning the league and then as soon as they hire a world class manager they win it. Coincidence I'm sure
Managers make a huge difference
Of course you need top players. But you aren't going to have a big squad advantage between the top premier league teams. The managers have to be the difference.
Does anyone actually have to explain the impact of Pep and Klopp? Put other managers at those squads and they aren't as good. The manager at the end of the day, whatever structure, will still be the most important piece of the puzzle. A good structure should minimize mistakes and make transitions smoother, and should raise the ceiling of what the team can reach. But the manager ultimately has to implement the coaching to get them playing as a team in a way that outplays opposition teams. A good manager makes his team's players look like the better group of players, even if there might not be that much in it once you remove manager impact.
Saying the teams with the best managers don't win is a bit of a nonsense opinion when the biggest trophies are consistently won by the best managers regardless of the squad at their disposal. Yes they have good squads, but it's the manager who knits it together and has them playing in a way that shows their best form consistently, and has them playing in a way that hides deficiencies and highlights their strengths. The manager implements a system that can dominate teams even if players have an off day. Like what Spurs did today. Individually I really don't think anyone had that great of a game for them bar Bentancur, and yet they bossed us at home. That's manager and coaching impact.
Yeah…our recruitment of managers is as bad as our recruitment of players.
We've signed managers that aren't good enough to manage elite clubs, or in a couple of cases were good enough to but not in the modern game.
They make the biggest difference and remain the most important part of a football club for performance levels. You can have a great structure and recruitment team, but if your manager isn't good enough, you will win nothing. A top manager can cover up for the problems above and you might even win things with that set up, as we experienced.
You say you know how the club is run but then you go on to say "he probably said he'd like Antony and then the club spent all their money on him". He himself insisted that he wanted to be involved in transfers heavily. He's apparently known as being very thorough. There is no universe in which this sort of thing is not communicated to him. He must have known it was going to eat up a good chunk of club's budget. Of course he doesn't negotiate the deal himself. The Antony transfer is especially painful because he had worked with him before. Not only was it a financial disaster for the club but it really makes you question his abilities if he can be so wrong about a player he knew so well.
I agree he shouldn't be a DOF but it's just bizarre to me that we're blaming the club for not making signings that fit his style of play.
Once Everybody's Back Fit FC
He keeps going on about being stronger when we get the key injuries back on the pitch… and I have defended ETH quite a lot but then I look at spurs and they have injuries and players missing but they still have an identity, they still rock up at OT and play better football than we do. There’s no more excuses. 2 years nearly and not a way of playing… that’s why he was brought here to bring a style. Got outplayed by a manager that’s been at spurs for halve a season.
The point is that high press isn't a systematic approach which was the point made. ETH's football at United doesn't include systematic high press.
We seen the same thing when we were outplayed by an injury ravaged Newcastle team
But the season before SAF got beaten by Mancini, then went and got Van Persie.
Klopp was nowhere last season when he had a few injuries.
By no means defending Ten Hag, but players are far more important. Ten Hag has got recruitment so badly wrong as well has being a disastrous manager on the pitch.
I think this post needs to be in its own thread. There are countless on here who are convinced otherwise that a glorious structure will make an incompetent manager become competent. The fact there's no evidence in football for it being relative is another issue.
Their 5 best players were out so you’re essentially saying Spurs are light years ahead of us even though they‘ve won feck all for 20 years and finished behind us in like 4 of the last 6 seasons?
Deluded.Define nowhere? Liverpool finished 5th and had the same amount of losses United currently have half way through the season, by way of comparison it's a significant upgrade to the standard we are currently witnessing. Furthermore, It was Klopps second lowest league finish in 9 seasons whereby he had already attained a UCL and the premier league.
What your describing is a proven world class manager having a periodic blip that wasn't anywhere as catastrophic as what we are seeing at United. United is described as a team that has underperformed for ten years and the current manager is having the worst season of any United manager in that period.
Can't see the season improving at all but most importantly can't see style of football improving.
Every spurs player on the ball today looked composed and controlled and played through us with ease at times while we have several players treating it like hot potatoe.
Every spurs player on the ball today looked composed and controlled and played through us with ease at times while we have several players treating it like hot potatoe.
Yeah and you’re blind
Spurs must be the greatest side in Europe if they have a better team than us even without Son, Maddison, Kulusevski, Sarr, Bissouma, Le Celso and Davies
We played against Spurs B team ffs
Not challenging for the title like they are this year. As soon as they got players back earlier this year they went on a run and nearly finished top 4, while we were clearly going backwards.
You won't find any managers who have won anything significant without having top players. You'll find lots of teams that have won stuff without top managers.
Quality players make more difference than any manager. Ours aren't good enough and the manager isn't either.
We were missing players too. Martinez (subbed on obviously, but has been out for a long time), Casemiro, Mount, Shaw, Malacia, Maguire. Plus Sancho has been fecked off.
We are a ~mid-table team, and we were playing a ~mid-table team.
So you think under Fergie we didn't most of the time have the best group of players?
Klopp has one title in 7 years. Because a team with better players exists.
Vicario > Onana
Porro > Dalot
Romero > Varane
Van de Ven > Evans
Udogie > AWB
Hojberg = Mainoo
Skipp < Eriksen
Bentancur = Bruno
Werner < Rashford
Johnson < Garnacho
Richarlison > Hojlund
Spurs recruitment has been very good. Ours hasn't.
There is no discernible pattern of play or plan.
Spurs had one. Their boss has been there half a season.
We have better players than them. They outplayed us at home.
We are less than the sum of our parts.
I’ve lost faith. ETH needs to go.
Love the disciplined approach but the rest of it is shite.
Spurs had one. Their boss has been there half a season.
We have better players than them. They outplayed us at home.
We are less than the sum of our parts.
I’ve lost faith. ETH needs to go.
Love the disciplined approach but the rest of it is shite.
Oh come on Bentancur over Bruno? Romero over Varane? Vicario has 12 games to his name
Ill give you the full backs and van de Ven but even then we brought Martinez on and thats another on our side the rest is bollocks
No chance Spurs missing all their best players had a better squad than us today.
That's a very good point. A lot like many of our worst signings too.
Many posters on here can't see that you can have an awful structure, along with awful managerial recruitment at the same time.
Pundits on SkySports calling Ten Hag lack of tactics now. This game of "Moments FC" vs "6 months in a new club and already showing good patterns of play even when missing many key players" is the final nail in the coffin imo. There's nobody who stil believes in Ten Hag at this point.
Also I think Neville made a good points, interesting comment about Van Gaal (that he implemented a clear style of play, and here there's just no real idea where this team is going, it's just random all around).
Also I think Neville made a good points, interesting comment about Van Gaal (that he implemented a clear style of play, and here there's just no real idea where this team is going, it's just random all around).
Never mind Spurs, we got outplayed by worse teams than them at home. If that's not proof enough that ETH is out of his depth then nothing will ever convince some
Good, he's absolutely dreadful.
Yeah, once everyone's back fit we'll be good to go, we're told. But he's sweating because he's running out of players left on the treatment table to make excuses about now. Squeaky bum time for ole Erik Injury List ten Hag. Soon it will be down to, "Well, we still have some players out, but once we get them back fit, we'll be fine, eh? Players like Shaw... He's back, you say?... Um... *checks notes*... Is it only Mount still out...? Um... once Mount's back we'll be ready, eh? Very important player for us, eh?"
He’s now dropped down to almost level with Jose on managerial record / win %. 58.7 vs 58.33. In 92 matches, he has a +39 goal difference. For all the poison Jose brought to the club, in 144 matches, he had a +123 goal difference. In 168 matches, Ole was at 54.17% win rate and +125 goal difference.
The goal difference is the most worrying. Both Ole and Jose stats include the period just before the end.
I don’t know how much longer it’s going to last, but there seems to be an argument that both Ole and Jose were better managers than Ten Hag.
The goal difference is the most worrying. Both Ole and Jose stats include the period just before the end.
I don’t know how much longer it’s going to last, but there seems to be an argument that both Ole and Jose were better managers than Ten Hag.
I'd rather have Van de Ven than Martinez personally. Pace and aerial ability key for the PL. But fair enough.Oh come on Bentancur over Bruno? Romero over Varane? Vicario has 12 games to his name
Ill give you the full backs and van de Ven but even then we brought Martinez on and thats another on our side the rest is bollocks
No chance Spurs missing all their best players had a better squad than us today.
Your argument was that our team was 'miles' better than theirs on paper today. You're failing to back it up.
This sums him up for me, he has no clue what it takes to build a successful team in this league and the thought of giving him more money to waste terrifies me.
You’re picking players you’ve seen a handful of times over players like Varane who have been great for us. You’ve picked Bentancur who’s played 5 games all season over feckin Bruno. Get real
Van de Ven has played 11 games, you’re taking those appearances over Martinez who’s arguably been our best signing in years? come off it.
Recency bias at its best