Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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We don't need "top-level" players though. We need well scouted players ready to make that step up.
The reality is that we arent going to see significant improvement until we start clearing out the dross. It's not going to happen in a single summer, but I think it's reasonable to think we can manage it in three or four.
Don't even get why people are regularly discussing which of his signings are successes or failures. Just feels like a sideshow. His shortcomings go beyond that.
Because so often the far more concerning tactical aspects and things like how he managed Varane earlier in the season are ignored in favour of wailing about Antony.
I don't even want him here next season, but when people are frequently arguing until they're blue in the face about the less significant stuff, just because it's shit to fling in Ten Hag's direction, it's very hard to believe that they won't be similarly as negative (and often outright toxic) about whoever follows him as soon as things are remotely less than rosy.
I agree. More concerning than his signings are the tactics. Defensively, this is the worst I've ever seen United. Attacking wise we're still playing in moments like Ole.
Love Ole the player, person, and manager, even if as he himself admitted, couldn't take us to the next level as a manager. Listening to him talk about his time at United is why I am not quick to criticise ETH currently and was never as reactive as some of our fanbase towards previous managers like LVG, Jose, Ole. He highlights how terrible this squad really is/was - unwilling to take on leadership/responsibility and spineless for the most part while thinking they're better than Man City. Lineker, Alan Shearer and Micah highlighted it recently as well - 95th minute of the City/United game with City actually leading 3-1 and having a buffer, Foden ran right back after an attacking phase to defend a throw-in. Yes Ten Hag has made plenty of his own mistakes but we're still left with a lot of players from those eras, I don't like to get into those specific players of course, because we all know who they are. The point is, we really need to get rid of these players/personalities from our team.
In terms of the alternative coaches being discussed:
Nagelsmann was hailed as one of the good up and coming managers, but lost a bit of credibility after Bayern, and hasn't had enough time with Germany NT to show that he's still a very good coach, maybe we get a clearer idea about him during the Euros?
Tuchel is a great coach imo, Champions league winner with Chelsea and 4th places in that same season but he's also a disciplinarian like ETH that ran into dressing room problems, and is currently having the same sort of issues with Bayern - I like the idea of Tuchel, but given the season he's having at Bayern (currently a lower win rate than Nagelsmann), do we want him here? His current Bayern iteration is also a bit 'moments FC' just like us. Tuchel himself has made plenty of transfer mistakes btw, if we're using transfers as a stick with which to beat ETH.
Flick could be an option and is a champions league winning manager, but is coming off a terrible spell with Germany NT.
Inzaghi is a great coach, but would need a bit of an overhaul here with players if he wants to play the way he plays? In addition, is that conservative style he plays how we want to play at United?
Luis Enrique maybe could do it and I do think he's a superb coach, but I don't know what his future will be with PSG, and whether he'd like to manage in the prem.
While I acknowledge his mistakes, I don't necessarily have a problem with Ten Hag at this stage because since Jose's days, I have always blamed the players more for our performances and not the manager- That is the case for Jose, Ole and ETH and even LVG to an extent. And if we were to go for a new coach I'd be happy with Tuchel, Inzaghi or Enrique - but I suspect all three will end up in the same bin as LVG, Jose, Ole and ETH if we don't fix the player issues immediately.
Ten Hag for me is going through the same pattern that Ole (less vocal about it during his tenure) and Jose (very vocal about it during his tenure) went through, and Ole said that much himself in the interview - for years we've tried to fix this pattern by changing managers, why not try to go about this in a different way now? If Ten Hag is just not good enough after all that, then yeah I think he needs to go - but these changes shouldn't end with the manager imo.
In terms of the alternative coaches being discussed:
Nagelsmann was hailed as one of the good up and coming managers, but lost a bit of credibility after Bayern, and hasn't had enough time with Germany NT to show that he's still a very good coach, maybe we get a clearer idea about him during the Euros?
Tuchel is a great coach imo, Champions league winner with Chelsea and 4th places in that same season but he's also a disciplinarian like ETH that ran into dressing room problems, and is currently having the same sort of issues with Bayern - I like the idea of Tuchel, but given the season he's having at Bayern (currently a lower win rate than Nagelsmann), do we want him here? His current Bayern iteration is also a bit 'moments FC' just like us. Tuchel himself has made plenty of transfer mistakes btw, if we're using transfers as a stick with which to beat ETH.
Flick could be an option and is a champions league winning manager, but is coming off a terrible spell with Germany NT.
Inzaghi is a great coach, but would need a bit of an overhaul here with players if he wants to play the way he plays? In addition, is that conservative style he plays how we want to play at United?
Luis Enrique maybe could do it and I do think he's a superb coach, but I don't know what his future will be with PSG, and whether he'd like to manage in the prem.
While I acknowledge his mistakes, I don't necessarily have a problem with Ten Hag at this stage because since Jose's days, I have always blamed the players more for our performances and not the manager- That is the case for Jose, Ole and ETH and even LVG to an extent. And if we were to go for a new coach I'd be happy with Tuchel, Inzaghi or Enrique - but I suspect all three will end up in the same bin as LVG, Jose, Ole and ETH if we don't fix the player issues immediately.
Ten Hag for me is going through the same pattern that Ole (less vocal about it during his tenure) and Jose (very vocal about it during his tenure) went through, and Ole said that much himself in the interview - for years we've tried to fix this pattern by changing managers, why not try to go about this in a different way now? If Ten Hag is just not good enough after all that, then yeah I think he needs to go - but these changes shouldn't end with the manager imo.
I read that ETH wanted to focus on players who have played in the Eridivisie (which has become apparent). Both he and members in the club have veto powers but they appear to lean into his suggestions more, after initially being recommended Ragnicks targets. It appears the club always rely on the managers recommendations
I also said in another thread, the Athletic have been reporting for a while now that ETH didn't necessarily want Antony initially either. The first summer (mirrored by all other windows under ETH) he was pushing the most for a striker. The club mucked about and it then became obvious we weren't signing one. Since the right-side had also been identified as a weak spot, and he knew Antony, he pushed for him. Right at the end of the window when we were panicking.
Yes he is his man ultimately and pushed for him, but there are a lot of mitigating circumstances there. I've heard Whitwell and Mitten mention it quite a few times now.
Judging by how that worked under Ole, it doesn't seem to be the case - Otherwise we'd likely have Haaland playing for us because Ole recommended Haaland to United before he even joined us as manager (When Haaland was with Ole at Molde). Based on what Ole also said on that interview: it's like a veto each for the manager, scouts and ultimately the owners. Of course that manager can propose his own preferred players, but they are still subjected to this veto. As I understand in Ole's time, once they decided who they wanted to bring in after all these vetos were considered, the financial side of the deals were done by Murtough without further input from the manager.
I just think bashing ETH regarding transfers just doesn't make sense when you consider how this seems to work at United - biggest concern for me with him is a lack of distinct style of play that is not counter-attack football (But then again this is down to the team as well as the manager), other than that I don't really have a lot to say against him. I'd like for him to do better away, and do better against top 6 sides, but again that comes down to our style of play and the players we have.
I agree, the only real failure (so far) has been Antony. But no manager is ever going to have a 100% success rate in the transfer market. But sadly narratives stick and will be repeated endlessly.
H
This isn’t a sleight on SAF, as others said Klopp wanted other players that wouldn’t have done aswell.
Sometimes signings are as much down to luck as anything else. But in modern football United have stuck out as bad at recruiting and squad management because they have done it their way. No other top club in England lets managers just pick who they want and has a more professional system to make sure the squads are more balanced and yeh right players are signed for yeh right prices.
Let’s say ETH is responsible for choosing every signing, why is the club just buying them? Did we spend that much on these signings because ETH wanted them or because our club has been notoriously awful at negotiating for players for multiple reasons?
No matter how much responsibility people want to put on ETH, the issue for 11 years has not been managers vetoing or not vetoing signings.
United phoned up Leeds to sign Lee Chapman and were offered Cantona.
This isn’t a sleight on SAF, as others said Klopp wanted other players that wouldn’t have done aswell.
Sometimes signings are as much down to luck as anything else. But in modern football United have stuck out as bad at recruiting and squad management because they have done it their way. No other top club in England lets managers just pick who they want and has a more professional system to make sure the squads are more balanced and yeh right players are signed for yeh right prices.
Let’s say ETH is responsible for choosing every signing, why is the club just buying them? Did we spend that much on these signings because ETH wanted them or because our club has been notoriously awful at negotiating for players for multiple reasons?
No matter how much responsibility people want to put on ETH, the issue for 11 years has not been managers vetoing or not vetoing signings.
I don't think he'd get nearly the stick on Antony's bust if the front office hadn't so severely screwed up the negotiations and gotten him for a lower fee.
That has always struck me as a lame excuse for continuing to blame the players. People did not scrutinize Ole's signings. Why? Because they thought he wasn't good enough tactically. This season, I believe he has looked worse tactically than we did under Ole or any othe manager we've had. Ten Haag was our first normal managerial recruitment, where we hired him based on the football we saw rather than his reputation or recommendations. So its tough to swallow, but appointments don't always go the way you want them to, even if you followed a proper process.
But I believe United supporters are learning a valuable lesson: being able to play well in a minor league, where you can employ a dominating style, is not a guarantee of success at the highest level. Our supporters are absolving him of the problems that other top-tier club managers face. Large egos, injuries, the intensity of the league, exhaustion, club obligations, enormous contracts, executive meddling, and fierce competition. Before any elite club can make a long-term commitment to a manager, they must demonstrate that they can handle these things. Many managers may be able to create good tactical systems in weaker leagues without the above-mentioned pressures, but in order to do it at the highest level, managers must possess the urgency, adaptability, and communication skills necessary to elevate their tactics to the highest level. Even though Vincent Kompany had a strong style of play in the Championship, that doesn't mean City should hand him the reins for two seasons in order to carry out their plan.
Demonstrating to your employers that you are a good fit for the position is a necessary component of having a top job. Our issue has been that, rather than evaluating managers' performances, we spend a lot of time and resources trying to provide them with as much time and money as possible. Instead of assessing them, as a club, we waste this time portraying them to the public as geniuses and justifying subpar first performances. We don't actually take the time to evaluate these managers' actual performance because we are too busy trying to convince the public that we made a fantastic decision that would change our fortune. Reports emerge casting blame on players and seeking any justification for a dismal preseason/start to the season. This is why I don't necessarily blame fans who always back the manager, because the club creates that environment with their marketing and briefs.
This, more than anything else, has gotten us to where we are today. There is no sense of urgency, and no one is putting pressure on our manager to perform to and above expectations. There is no threat. Just an endless supply of support and statements defending the manager without cause. That strategy works when dealing with a manager who understands responsibility and consistently produces high-quality performances and results. However, it does not work for managers who still need to prove themselves. a. Not every manager possesses that drive. b. Not every manager is as accountable. c. Not every manager possesses that level of ability.
This is just bollocks.
Wouldn't be lower than 50m. He was supposed to be our RW solution and better than Sancho, or at least live up to those expectations. Personally I think he might be worse than Elanga/James.
Its a fact. For the first 6 months of a new season, our managers can lose almost every game without mention of them getting the sack.
SJR said we have had good managers. But the environment was not right to succeed.
Translation.
The Glazer whoresons had not run United as a football club.
SJR only took over football operations in late December.
Noting could be done last window.
Erik will certainly be given every help possible in the summer and be allowed to at least finish his contract.
I'm certain there are regular meetings and discussions now with the team that SJR has assembled so far.
Just hiring a new manager will not change anything.
It will take a few years.
Whoever the manager is.
Translation.
The Glazer whoresons had not run United as a football club.
SJR only took over football operations in late December.
Noting could be done last window.
Erik will certainly be given every help possible in the summer and be allowed to at least finish his contract.
I'm certain there are regular meetings and discussions now with the team that SJR has assembled so far.
Just hiring a new manager will not change anything.
It will take a few years.
Whoever the manager is.
Yeah Erik needed to cast his net further than just the Eredivisie on this one,surely he could have found someone cheaper than £88m
It's weird. It's like he has done excellent job otherwise, but failed on signings aspect alone. He's failed at pretty much every single thing you expect from a manager.
None of our managers have lost "almost every game" in the first six months of any season.
Ten Hag has been rumoured to be on the verge of the sack for pretty much all of this season, and Solskjaer and Mourinho were sacked three months and four months into their respective final seasons.
Literally every manager has been sacked as soon as they failed to meet expectations (or even if it looked like they might fail to meet expectations).
It is not remotely close to being "a fact".
Without a doubt, there is no way 1 person on their own can fix the mess we are in. EtH is an easy scapegoat, as have the other managers before him, the problem is far deeper than the manager and there's no quick fix, it'll take another 2-3 seasons.
So to sum up.
1) Transfers not down to ETH and anyway they were all great bar Antony but that wasn't his fault. He told them Antony wasnt worth 80 mill but was overruled
2) This seasons failures is all down to injuries
3) ETH has a great style of play he just couldn't implement it this season due to instability. Once players are back we will be great.
4) All the other issues that has happened is due to the Glazers and poor structure
5) The players are to blame. 90 percent of the are sht, down tools are trying to get him sacked. Even the one he bought
1) Transfers not down to ETH and anyway they were all great bar Antony but that wasn't his fault. He told them Antony wasnt worth 80 mill but was overruled
2) This seasons failures is all down to injuries
3) ETH has a great style of play he just couldn't implement it this season due to instability. Once players are back we will be great.
4) All the other issues that has happened is due to the Glazers and poor structure
5) The players are to blame. 90 percent of the are sht, down tools are trying to get him sacked. Even the one he bought
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Expectations in regard to performance. Not just results
) and bad actors, poor discipline, poor signings from previous managers
)if he walked into man city he'd have won the sextuple
Interesting United we stand poll discussed in the athletic:
In a poll on the United We Stand forum held after Sunday’s defeat, 36 per cent voted for Ten Hag to be sacked before next season. Only a quarter wanted him to stay. Others either do not have faith in the club to find the right replacement or are willing to wait to make a decision when the season ends in May.
So only 64% of United fans polled don’t want ETH to be sacked before next season.
After years of United focusing only on the horse and not the cart — hiring and firing without an elite setup informing such decisions — it would be foolish to make the same mistake again. And as those pieces begin to fall into place, a clearer picture of the culture Ratcliffe wants to build will emerge.
It may be that INEOS decides Ten Hag is not suited to working in the way it envisages a head coach. It may be that Ten Hag prefers a greater degree of control than on offer to him. Or it may be that INEOS concludes that an elite, functioning system is what Ten Hag has needed behind him all along.
We will not know if any of those outcomes are the case if Ten Hag is dispensed with before the INEOS era is fully underway and that football operations structure is in place. And so Ten Hag will likely press on, making the best of a bad season.
Let’s just hope INEOs has access to the twitter pages and XG/ shots against / Possession / style of play / Anthony / ETH out of his depth data that our most animated fans seem to think they are the only ones able to interpret.
In a poll on the United We Stand forum held after Sunday’s defeat, 36 per cent voted for Ten Hag to be sacked before next season. Only a quarter wanted him to stay. Others either do not have faith in the club to find the right replacement or are willing to wait to make a decision when the season ends in May.
So only 64% of United fans polled don’t want ETH to be sacked before next season.
After years of United focusing only on the horse and not the cart — hiring and firing without an elite setup informing such decisions — it would be foolish to make the same mistake again. And as those pieces begin to fall into place, a clearer picture of the culture Ratcliffe wants to build will emerge.
It may be that INEOS decides Ten Hag is not suited to working in the way it envisages a head coach. It may be that Ten Hag prefers a greater degree of control than on offer to him. Or it may be that INEOS concludes that an elite, functioning system is what Ten Hag has needed behind him all along.
We will not know if any of those outcomes are the case if Ten Hag is dispensed with before the INEOS era is fully underway and that football operations structure is in place. And so Ten Hag will likely press on, making the best of a bad season.
Let’s just hope INEOs has access to the twitter pages and XG/ shots against / Possession / style of play / Anthony / ETH out of his depth data that our most animated fans seem to think they are the only ones able to interpret.
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The club have never had any real expectations in regard to performance. All they care about is Champions League qualification as a minimum.
The fans have, but even then there has been pressure on every manager to play attractive, attacking football.
Also, you literally made this about results by falsely stating that our managers could lose almost every game for the first six months of a season.
As I said, it's utter bollocks that our managers have been afforded patience and support in an environment free of any real expectations. It's pretty much been relentless pressure from every angle, right from day one.
So, um...
I am happy to wait until end of the season if it means we get the right manager in place for the summer
sorry , typo , editedSo, um...
Is ten Hag responsible for anything at all? Or maybe I can be the next Man Utd manager because apparently you don't need to do much?
Transfers - the boards remit
On pitch results - the players remit
Coaching - Steve McClaren's remit
Injury management - the medical team's remit
I'll just sit there and nod my way through press interviews
Transfers - the boards remit
On pitch results - the players remit
Coaching - Steve McClaren's remit
Injury management - the medical team's remit
I'll just sit there and nod my way through press interviews
I was just trying to figure out where you were going with that.I get that a third want him out (I disagree) and a quarter want him to stay. I'm kind of in the wait and see group because I do think the combination of injuries and a lack of a quality bench have hamstrung him. But I totally sympathize with those who think the club will screw it up!
I do think context matters, and we don't really have that context.
If the club has multiple options lined up, but ETH turns around and basically says he doesn't want anyone but a certain player then it's all on him. Well it's also on the club for allowing it, but ETH would be fully at fault for demanding it and has to take the consequences of that.
If the clubs scouting was shit and we didn't really have any alternatives lined up and basically went to the manager and asked him who he wanted, that's on the club. The manager shouldn't be criticised too much for being poor at a job that he shouldn't even be doing.
Or (and this is probably the most likely IMO) it's somewhere in between. ETH is pushing too hard for the players he wants, but part of the reason he's doing that is because of the incompetence and indecision of the hierarchy above him. They don't have the confidence in the structure to overrule him, and he doesn't have the confidence in the structure to trust them.
Since the Fellaini signing I’ve always felt that whatever Woodward/Glazers think we should do, then the opposite would probably be a better option.
I get that a third want him out (I disagree) and a quarter want him to stay. I'm kind of in the wait and see group because I do think the combination of injuries and a lack of a quality bench have hamstrung him. But I totally sympathize with those who think the club will screw it up!
I'm someone that thinks we should replace him before we rebuild.
But a question if he was to stay and we commit - what does he need / where is this going? Do people just think he needs a centre back to play higher line? Or centre mid with the ball, or centre mid without the ball? What is the missing ingredient for his destination?
But a question if he was to stay and we commit - what does he need / where is this going? Do people just think he needs a centre back to play higher line? Or centre mid with the ball, or centre mid without the ball? What is the missing ingredient for his destination?
Sometimes less is more.... I was responding to the point you were making about him not being a scout, and I get that, but it falls down when it is a player who he was just managing, no scout is going to going to have the sort of insight into a player that their manager does....
Regarding the list I meat to obviously include Martinez as well.... I was not criticising each player as a bad signing, I was making the point above these are players he knows very well, and he put them forward on that basis, if they are not good enough you cannot then excuse ETH because he is not a a scout.
As for Antony, just because he was the only option doesn't mean you buy, it is not like we had 10 players and had to buy an 11th, maybe SAF needed to teach him the no value in the market line!
The point I'm making is we should have scouts putting better targets on the table (which they didn't).
If our strategy is punting on who ten hag wants, then we should be prepared for flops. And once we have established there are a couple of flops, we should not berate Ten Hag for it.
He asked for a say in transfers and being in the room for overall strategy, not being a one man show.
How do you know what other options were presented to Ten Hag?
This team needs a lot of reinforcement/rebuilding regardless of who the manager is.
This is what they call strawman argument.