Of course West Ham would have accepted £80m for Bowen. Their Captain, talisman and best player was sold for only £25m more. He doesn’t “fail the available test”, United are still a draw with the financial resources to secure targets from West Ham. It’s weird to pretend otherwise to defend a disastrous transfer.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Well first of all most other clubs wouldn't have such a limited criteria. We need a RW, it doesn't have to be a specialist left footer. We've long been linked with Yeremy Pino who can use either but I believe prefers his right. So he's also an excellent crossing option.
https://www.football.london/arsenal...rod-bowen-arsenal-transfer-liverpool-24620683
They said the same thing about Rice, who was undoubtedly their best player, so I'm certain 80m or less would have gotten him. He had a decent shot at the time but hadn't exploded yet, because I still remember jokingly calling Antony the 'Brazilian Bowen' in jest after mediocre performances where he didn't score his traditional curler.
Even taking into account the imaginary left footed criteria, I've given you three names. Bailey, Bowen(of course he moves if any club offers £85 million) and Kulusevski.
This from a bloke whose wife won't let him watch football.
All better than Antony, all left footed, all easily available at that money.
Now if we get rid of the left footed thing,given ETH is currently playing a right footed player. How many more could we come up with?
He’d be a bit of a hypocrite if this was the case since this is exactly what he said guardiola did when he first joined city.
At the time of purchase sept 2022 this was their position:
- Kulusevski - Was already at Spurs as of the Jan window. So no chance. Not available.
- Bowen - Already addressed
- Neto - You would have signed him after a long term knee injury and 463 mins in the PL in the 21/22 season where he got 1 goal and 1 assist? Fair play if so?
- Kudus - 411 Eredivise minutes and 1 goal and 1 assist in that 21/22 season again fair play if so.
- Diaby - He is (and remains) the only player I’d accept the argument of (and was also someone I wanted in that window) but then the problem is this is what Diaby said during that window
I don't agree with the point being made about Antony as the club absolutely should not have sanctioned that transfer regardless of our failure to pursue an alternative, and I don't actually think it's a great argument to ask people on the internet to identify targets the club failed to identify themselves, but with the criteria of "who else was available at the time":
Kulusevski had spent the second half of the previous season at Spurs and had already agreed to join them permanently right at the beginning of the window, long before we signed Antony. He categorically wasn't available.
Pedro Neto has a very similar strike rate to Antony, so I'm not sure he'd actually have been any better, even if he would have been available at a daft (if less daft) fee.
Mohammed Kudus was literally playing second-fiddle to Antony at Ajax. He'd have likely been available and cheaper, but debatable if he was actually better at the time, even if he's been better since arriving in the league.
Diaby and Bowen are depressingly good shouts though.
I can make arguments for Mourinho and Ten Hag, but agree about the rest.
I agree with you on Bruno but disagree on Rashford and the capabilities of our front 3 in general. Don’t think you can ever play good high pressing football with Rashford in the front 3. Moreover, his passing is poor and dribbling is mediocre except when he has space on the counter (stats support this). He’s not the type of player who can help us break down defenses if we want to become a dominant, possession-oriented team playing against lots of mid/low-blocks.
On top of that, I think Garnacho can make it at this club as he can still develop a ton - incredible mentality. But I think he isn’t currently ready to be a starter for a top club for the same reason as Rashford - currently more suited to breaks/counter-attacking than possession.
Anyway, I’m getting away from EtH now but maybe this unpacks a little of why I think the squad isn’t capable of much more than 4th. And therefore why I’m on the fence about how much we have to gain by changing managers.
I disagree I think we’d have been absolutely rinsed there but also Bowen has only ever shown or been linked seriously with London clubs and Liverpool.
Antony has been a poor transfer but this is in hindsight. Having a 21 year old Brazilian NT RW who previously played for Ten Hag (and therefore knew his systems) was a no brainer just not for the fee we paid (which I’m certain I said at the time)
We were replacing Greenwood. That’s why the criteria was so strict.
Pino in 2022 wasn’t anywhere near good enough and arguably still isn’t now.
ETH signed him, and used him off the bench for two years. He only exploded after ETH left. Now there could be much more behind the scenes, maybe he was getting used to life etc, but he ended up outscoring Antony. So during the months of hardball negotiations, could ETH have stood up and said hey, maybe we should try going for the backup instead for less than half the price, he seems just as talented, if not even more versatile, and two footed.
Also @mu4c_20le the article you link literally says they don’t want to sell Bowen. “Have no intention” and is geared towards Arsenal and Liverpool interested in him. Not us
This isn't Football Manager though. I agree it would have made sense, with hindsight, but we wanted someone to come in and hit the ground running which Ten Hag (erroneously) thought Antony would do. Signing his backup doesn't really strike me as filling that criteria, regardless of his potential.
The interest was there both ways with Antony, so I can understand why we ended up seeing that one through, even if I wish the club had pulled out when the fee started getting silly. I'm also not sure Ajax would have sold us Kudus after we spent all summer unsettling their other player in that position.
- Kulusevski had only signed on loan.
- Bowen was very likely available for £80m+. Virtually every player on the planet is.
- Neto missed most of 21/22, half of 22/23… and yet still has more goal contributions than Antony since he joined.
- Kudus has 13 G/A this season (once again, more than Antony since he arrived) and it’s the beginning of March.
- Diaby is apparently the only better player that was available.
Antony was not the best signing available. The idea that the best possible use of £80m was to sign a forward who has failed to register a single goal or assist in 21 PL appearances this season is absurd.
Kulusevski joined on an 18 month loan with an option to buy at £29.2m. No other club had that option during his loan. Impossible.
Again we’re not talking about current Neto we’re talking about Sept 2022 just come back from major knee injury and played 463 mins Neto. You’re taking that gamble back then?
Again we’re not talking about current Kudus we’re talking about Sept 2022 Kudus who was behind Antony and barely played that season.
Diaby himself is quoted as saying he planned to stay another season. Wasn’t interested in a move.
I do agree we need more quality there. I'd sign a versatile forward than can substitute as a striker. I don't disagree about Rashford and in the past I was more of a detractor, but at least for the short term, he's had 2 genuinely top class seasons for us where he showed that ability to score. Our whole counter attacking plan under Ole and Ten Haag has revolved around his ability to play without creation. With more competition, it could be a good test to gauge his true ability.
On the other side to this, he will provide the most money for us. He's not bankable and gets paid like he is. I won't necessarily be stressed either way in regard to him, but I still think he has something to offer.
You can give @BenitoSTARR any name on the planet. He/she is going to deny it was possible.
Whenever a poster says "tell me who we should have signed" it's an impossible task. They'll deny all suggestions. Happens all the time here.
Yea, that’s possible. Both Rashy and Garnacho have the pace to distress tired defenses when coming off the bench. So long as we get a quality option in to displace whichever of the two is performing worse, it would be a big step forward.
Edit: Actually it’ll have to be a RW since that allows Rashy/Garnacho to compete for the left again.
The reason it’s nigh impossible is because there really wasn’t obvious and available options.
Antony should not have been signed for the fee he was that categorically was a poor decision. But he was signed as the best available left footed RW that wanted to join us too.
The best available RW was Raphinha of Leeds at the time but he literally only wanted a move to Barcelona.
Antony should not have been signed for the fee he was that categorically was a poor decision. But he was signed as the best available left footed RW that wanted to join us too.
The best available RW was Raphinha of Leeds at the time but he literally only wanted a move to Barcelona.
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Maybe I’m bias but I don’t think we’re the worst project out of those teams. I won’t put them in order but each has their negatives that a manager will naturally take in account:
1) Liverpool - in a good position as a club but to take over and follow on from Klopp is a massive task. Everyone will be comparing everything to how things were under Klopp, Salah likely leaving, Van Dijk, Trent with only a year left on their deals. According to German sources Alonso is sceptical about taking the Liverpool for this exact reason - although I always feel like German media are always so pro-Bayern so could be BS.
Positives - current squad is in a good place and sale of Salah will provide some funds.
2) Chelsea - already spent a tonne of money on players with massive contracts. Notoriously ruthless with managers underperforming. Risky for any manager to take charge of, let alone a young up and coming manager.
Positives - not many… London life?
3) Barca - no money, noticeable gulf to Madrid right now and Madrid have a team of wonderkids with Mbappe likely to join them soon so that gulf will only get bigger in the short-term IMO.
Positives - prestigious club to have CV. Some very good youngsters.
4) Bayern - sack their managers as soon as they look like they might not win the league. Should be a guarantee of trophies but even then that sometimes isn’t guaranteed and enough to keep your job. Squad isn’t in the best shape right now either.
Positives - 90% chance of winning trophies. Some decent youngsters.
5) Utd - have underperformed for years. Mismatch of players in current squad needing a big rebuild and new owners resulting in a lot of change off the pitch too.
Positives - INEOS have said we need to be patient so will be given time to get it right. Will have budget to rebuild the team. Some good youngsters in the squad and coming through the academy. Promise of new training facilities. New best in class leadership team supporting the manager.
None are perfect options but I do think Utd is a very tempting option with the potential for the biggest room for improvement on and off the pitch.
That's been a really good response to read, interesting points and a lot of things to consider for me.
I do agree that you can pick a direction and stick to it, replacing the players and managers gradually to suit, improve and refine, then reach an end goal. This is what City did, it won't be quick or easy success though.
The other option is finding a gem of a manager like Fergie or Klopp or Ancelloti that can mostly get the very best out of players whether they are superstars or not and create a winning mentality. It's harder to find/obtain these sorts of managers, but they can do well with most squads.
We've done neither of these things, brought in different managers with very different ideas and overhauled the squads throughout each of their tenures with no great success to speak of.
I guess that's my main issue, it's never been a core of the same players playing regularly, nor has a particular manager been there for an extended period over the greater period of failure, so simply saying the players aren't good enough, no manager could do anything with them, and that they should all be sold isn't really a fair assessment of what's actually gone wrong. (I know this has gone off on a bit of a tangent from your original post but it's something I wanted to include as I see it spoken about often).
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My biggest problem with ETH is that he seems to be completely spineless; i.e. he lets his players walk all over him at will.
His (alleged) handling of the whole Mason Greenwood saga laid him bare to the world in my opinion; and by that I am alluding to him being willing to take MG back (along with that imposter Richard Arnold - how the hell did het get the CEO job? But that is another discussion), despite what Greenwood has done, to save his job; and it is here that I lost all respect for him as a person, and knew that he was not the man for the job.
And: let us not forget about the Sancho stuff. He really made ETH look like a complete mug. Show some authority FFS. Sir Alex would have sent him to the reserves for the rest of his career here. I just cannot stand these 'behind the scenes', lukewarm responses to absolute disrespect for the manager and the club.
ETH's moral compass seems to be as lost as his tactics and philosophy; if he is here at the beginning of the next season I will be very, very surprised - because let us face it, only few times has there ever been a greater showing of the embodiment of 'too big for one's boots' than this; at times it has been deer in headlights stuff.
Cut the losses and get Nagelsmann in sooner rather than later in my opinion.
His (alleged) handling of the whole Mason Greenwood saga laid him bare to the world in my opinion; and by that I am alluding to him being willing to take MG back (along with that imposter Richard Arnold - how the hell did het get the CEO job? But that is another discussion), despite what Greenwood has done, to save his job; and it is here that I lost all respect for him as a person, and knew that he was not the man for the job.
And: let us not forget about the Sancho stuff. He really made ETH look like a complete mug. Show some authority FFS. Sir Alex would have sent him to the reserves for the rest of his career here. I just cannot stand these 'behind the scenes', lukewarm responses to absolute disrespect for the manager and the club.
ETH's moral compass seems to be as lost as his tactics and philosophy; if he is here at the beginning of the next season I will be very, very surprised - because let us face it, only few times has there ever been a greater showing of the embodiment of 'too big for one's boots' than this; at times it has been deer in headlights stuff.
Cut the losses and get Nagelsmann in sooner rather than later in my opinion.
Off the top of my head all of the below would have cost less than 80 million and are much better players that Antony. Maybe if our manager knew anything about football beyond the Eredivisie he’d have been able to identify one of these players instead. None of them are hidden gems. They all play in big leagues around the world. Also, Ironically the one player you listed, we’d never have got, because Leeds were never selling us Phillips or Raphinha.
Marco Asensio
Serge Gnabry
Inaki Williams
Nicolas Gonzalez
Braiz Mendez
Solly March
Michael Olise
There is nothing wrong with being defensive, tight, but his tactics against Liverpool and City were extreme - we aren't bottom relegation fodder, You simply cannot play like that if you are Man Utd.
Ultimately what has really hurt him is the amateur transfer market goings on, it's been catastrophic. Reminds me of Brendan Rodgers at Liverpool and amateur hour with the transfers.
Ultimately what has really hurt him is the amateur transfer market goings on, it's been catastrophic. Reminds me of Brendan Rodgers at Liverpool and amateur hour with the transfers.
Lots of Twitter talk that EtH been or about to be sacked. Big pinch of salt of course
Hoping for new manager bounce to push us through the fa cup?
Any links?
Hence why big grain of salt (probably digger fulls) but there’s a solid amount of fan channels all tweeting similar. Didn’t want to post as afraid of getting a bollocking but….
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Decent read that. I'm not absolving him of blame but I think the mess at the start of the season with Antony, the Greenwood decision and Sancho's idiocy had a big impact.
If he's sacked no one will be shocked but i do feel he was hired to sort out the dressing room and it's been a massive task with these players. As Ole and Jose said, some of these guys just aren't United class or as good as they think they are.
This is just demonstrably wrong. Erik can clearly set up a team, because he had a plan on Sunday and it was working for an hour before our subs weakened the team ( a symptom of our injuries crisis, not a demo of a manager out of his depth.
Any manager coming he was bound to fail, they have to do it all themselves.
the concerning part I have with Erik is the progression. We still look like a team together with only a few months. You can throw stats around, winning percentage,results vs top 8 to show positives and negatives - but the lack of cohesion on the pitch is awful. The same issues crop up each week and are either not addressed or we just keep going with ‘Plan A’ and hope it works.
teams with so called lesser ability than us look far better tactically astute. This is where the lack of progression comes in, actually going backwards again.
That is what he will fall on. We have regressed. He didn’t decide the signing value of players, but the players themselves he has signed were mostly questionable thus far.
I like him and want him to succeed like us all, he was always up against it but some back the right calls at the right times - he’s had a few go the other way and that’s sadly on his shoulders only.
the concerning part I have with Erik is the progression. We still look like a team together with only a few months. You can throw stats around, winning percentage,results vs top 8 to show positives and negatives - but the lack of cohesion on the pitch is awful. The same issues crop up each week and are either not addressed or we just keep going with ‘Plan A’ and hope it works.
teams with so called lesser ability than us look far better tactically astute. This is where the lack of progression comes in, actually going backwards again.
That is what he will fall on. We have regressed. He didn’t decide the signing value of players, but the players themselves he has signed were mostly questionable thus far.
I like him and want him to succeed like us all, he was always up against it but some back the right calls at the right times - he’s had a few go the other way and that’s sadly on his shoulders only.
For a long time it was easy to dismiss the lack of progression as a symptom of the ridiculous schedule of games last season and then the injury crisis this year.
Once we were out of the CL and League cup and had such a light schedule in the New Year I was really expecting to see rapid progress. There have been glimmers with the Garnacho, Hojlund & Rashford front three. In fact the front six playing consistently together was key to that upturn in results and increased goals being scored.
However, as soon as Shaw and Martinez are injured again it falls apart against Fulham and frankly the upturn wasn’t that convincing anyway.
That is partly a squad issue but should it be so fragile by now? Is the squad really this bad?
I can’t help but think how ETH seems to make things harder for himself. Most on here would have put Lindelof at RB and Dalot at LB once Shaw got injured. I reckon most would have said to keep Garnacho on the RW, Rashford on the LW and then ask McTominay to do his best Hojlund impression after Hojlund got injured. Instead he broke things that were working and played others in much worse positions for them.
Surely we cannot have a guy who has Man Utd scoring the same number of goals as fecking Luton town. You can make all the hypothetical arguments you want about footballing structure and this and that but just we remain crap at creating chances and scoring goals.
Thanks, wonder if there's anything to it. Guess we'll find out eventually.
These briefs are about him leaving at the end of the season and not imminently aren’t they?
Except, yes they absolutely can. And yes they absolutely were. As evidenced by the fact that not a single one of them has gone onto achieve anything that would indicate that the club was wrong to sack them. Moyes went on to relegate Sunderland & get sacked at Real Sociadad. Mourinho got sacked at Spurs & Roma. LVG effectively retired and Ole can’t even get a job.
The managerial recruitment post SAF have been as bad as the player recruitment.
Imagine that this summer the situation is exactly what you describe, and Antony is still with Ajax. The only difference is that you (BenitoSTARR) know about Antony what you know now. Would you buy Antony for 80 million? For 40 million? For 20? For 5?
I wouldn't buy him for free. He is not United material.
And the thing is that Ten Hag KNEW Antony! He worked with Antony everyday for a long time. And he still wanted him at United. And he still insists that Antony can be unstoppable.
It's sad how badly this has gone again. Same mistakes can't be repeated, and that means allowing the same bunch of waste of space players to survive another manager. Consistently failing can't be tolerated at this club anymore.
Antony shouldn’t have been signed because he’s fundamentally fecking shite at football. £8 million, £18 million or £80 million. It doesn’t matter. It makes no difference. He’s still shite.
You could have picked up a player like Andros Townsend in 2022 for under £10 mil and he would have been a better signing.