Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

golden_blunder said:

Jaap Stam, Des Walker, Kyle Walker to name a few

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Varane

Just watching the episode of overlap with Jaap Stam which was 3 months or more ago and he was saying that we lacked identity and he was surprised when ETH said we will not be playing like Ajax. He admitted without saying it that he was disappointed with how ETH has got us playing.

TsuWave said:

I don't know. I'm struggling to recognise United fans these days, I mean:

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Is it not ok to be unsure about something these days? Do we have to be certain about everything?

I'm just comfortable to admit that maybe the problems at this club are more complex than just sack this and sign that. A lot went wrong this season, and I don't anymore. So yeah I'm happily on the fence for now.

soapythecat said:

He’s like our very own rain man. He is seeing things - patterns, formation - on the pitch that no one else can. Maybe his instructions are so advanced the average footballer can’t enact it because it’s too detailed and out there.
The clip from his Ajax days does nothing. It supports the vast majority who believe his methods won’t work. It would take years and all hell of a lot of good will and patience to get a squad suitable for him.

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Dutch systems are extremely complex and beyond the scope and interest of the generic fan in England, but times are changing and the game is becoming a lot more homogenised over time, so what was once rejected has steadily invaded the public consciousness and is in the process of being normalised.

I don't know if you say what you say in jest, but it has been something I've bought up way, way back when talking about crossovers and implementation of systems. The Dutch have been playing a certain way for over 60 years now with tweaks and modifications and it's only really since Pep's implementations with Barcelona that a lot of those principles have been taken on board across the whole of Europe rather than just the 4-3-3 nations of the past, especially so when he came to the PL and dominated with them, meshing Spanish and Dutch philosophies and executing styles of play that simply hadn't been seen or heard of over here. Perhaps the no striker system being the final breach from which, every club started working on methods that took from either he or Klopp's schools of thought.

In terms of instruction, I'm going to bet many of his instructions are implied and expected to be elementary - that part where footballers are supposed to just know what to do - in terms of football schooling, the Dutch take it to levels of nuance and detail other nations don't even think is necessary, let alone schooling hordes of players to pick up on micro actions and layered complexities. If you've never been taught to play and think in that manner, why would you suddenly have a deep, instinctive understanding of what you should do or where you should be at any given moment in a play? Dutch coaches, for the most part, either bomb here (England), or get half way through whatever it is they're trying to do before the plug is pulled. I believe Van Gaal to be a better teacher than ten Hag, which is why his blueprint was cast across so many of our players so quickly, and adhered to to the wire despite the grumbles and gripes the players - who had never played or thought in that way - had with what they were being asked to do.

I think in terms of implication, it's like having a schooling system where a lot of the class didn't go on to further education, and I think that has been a massive obstacle for ten Hag because he has no idea how to bridge that gap and convey his ideas and thoughts to players who probably fundamentally fail to grasp them. You can see why he would want the security of having as many players who understand his game and what they're expected to do in it as possible - he was buying up as much of Ajax and Dutch players as he could as a security blanket and crutch, and it wasn't because he was too myopic to look elsewhere, rather, he, in his own mind, felt confident these players would be the easiest to transpose to his new club, whilst perhaps getting the rest on board and up to date, or shipped out.

As an aside, for any who object to what I'm saying, this is Cruyff talking about football and philosophy. What he's talking about was simply unheard of on these shores for anyone who didn't have a vested interest in the game on a tactical level or who actually wanted to get into the game at some level themselves. You actually have to seek out and learn about those schools of thought to really buy into what's being conveyed:




He is said to have revolutionised the game in Spain, and in part, the same thing has happened here over the years as we've moved to points between the Dutch, Spanish and German methods and are taking what's desirable and applying it to a faster, more aggressive style of football.

In principle, that's not revelatory or a particularly big deal. What is, is in not having contingencies in place and catering for the what if's. By those clips of the Dutch TV show, it's a running theme with ten Hag that he doesn't do well with even entertaining the variables of the what if and doesn't prepare enough for them. It's a binary way of thinking sprinkled with a lot of optimism or determinism that what he's instructing will work, and that's that. That's all good in theory, or verbalised, but the reality for any top coach is contingencies are bread and butter and part and parcel of why they are top coaches. As @JPRouve has gone to great lengths to write, the folly is not with having an initial plan, it is in not being able to work around it or deviate from it; it's in the inability to be introspective enough to take a step back and readminister.

One of the things Pep is equally lauded and ridiculed for is his tinkering. Sometimes it looks so unnecessary, to the point it even appears to be a pisstake, but what he shows with that tinkering is a vast amount of approaches to a problem and a mind that wants to assess and assimilate variables to a degree all will be factored into future iterations of his settled upon plan of action. Pep has had all sorts of teams in the PL, from the ridiculously technical turbo midgets who don't even need a striker at the helm to score over a hundred goals, to the hard driving, wing-based sides, and a current iteration that is rather brutish and direct for a Pep side, same goes for his use of the full-backs; he's run the entire gamut with them and then switched them out for CB's. He doesn't stay still or dead set on one way of playing; he chops and changes and fine tunes what he sees fit. Klopp has gone through his own journey and usage of his teams and is still coming up with new things now. Neither manager weds themselves solely to one way or one line of thinking, and they are not afraid to try new things, succeed or fail with them - it all gets assimilated.

They aren't the only managers doing this in the league; the much talked about De Zerbi constantly applies and reapplies new ideas and tweaks, some fail, some don't, but he isn't afraid to venture out and find ways to round out his desired style of play. ten Hag is like a plank of wood by contrast. He won't look to new things; he won't modify what is clearly not working or look to branch out from his initial set of principles, and it's actually really sad to see. He is proving to not be a modern manager in the sense he won't change, even a little bit let alone make the sweeping changes we've seen other managers take on and show growth by doing so.

It would have been nice to see a side of his here where all patrons understand their roles and could execute them optimally. At that point, his coaching, within its own framework could have been assessed, but in being so inflexible and seemingly unaware of what his refusal to adapt has done - and is doing - there's no real justification for blindly handing him another season. Perhaps he is a professor for world-conquering students, but in not being able to work with tools at his disposal, he's not a good fit for a club like ours, especially so when it'll take a number of windows to truly purge this squad. If you can't work with what you're given, a large part of your remit is down the drain, and I think he's shown us that, as within this thread, the two opposing factions can barely even agree on what he does/doesn't do, which isn't a good look for a so-called top class coach; it's just not something that gets spoken about for the best coaches in the league.

Someone said:

Is it not ok to be unsure about something these days? Do we have to be certain about everything?

I'm just comfortable to admit that maybe the problems at this club are more complex than just sack this and sign that. A lot went wrong this season, and I don't anymore. So yeah I'm happily on the fence for now.

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I don’t have a problem with you being on the fence. Your post however was one of the things that prompted me to ask if managers get goodwill for draws at other clubs - since your post was made on the back of a home draw - and that’s why I quoted it to substantiate that point to another poster.

I’m yet to see anyone arguing that the problems at this club boil down to sack this and sign that. People often argue against a position hardly anyone has taken when speaking for Ten Hag. It’s bizarre.

Yes, a lot has gone wrong this season - that’s why you want a top tier manager because things are seldom all going to go right. If Ten Hag needs almost everything to be plain sailing, what’s the point of him? Most sensible people weren’t expecting a title challenge this season - but most also weren’t expecting United to be 11 points off 5th with negative GD, with seven games to go and being the team facing the most shots in the league in 2024.

I think if the quality of football wasn’t so poor the criticisms levied at him wouldn’t be this intense either. But I can’t fathom how anyone that has watched us play this season doesn’t see serious deficiencies in Ten Hag and how he stubbornly has us playing. But alas, the fence is comfortable and I understand it. It’s OK

Laurencio said:

We can't claim that Ajax were making the same mistakes, that it is a personal tactical preference, and then say that you can't control a football match like that. Ajax regularly allowed the opposition less than 10 shots, won 6 out of 6 in the group stages with a GD of +15, and won the league with a GD of +79. Clearly you CAN control a match like that, we just can't seem to do it.

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You can't do it in the Premier League. You might be able to get away with it in a league where one team has far more resource than the rest but not where the competition is more even.

That clip of Gullit is from the 2018/19 season. That season they conceded over 10 shots in 4 of 6 group games and 5 of the 6 knockout games that followed. That's how they ultimately blew their commanding lead in the match against Spurs. The following season they conceded over 10 shots in 5 of their 6 group games and finished 3rd in their group. The season after it happened in half of their group games and they came 3rd again.

It was only in 2021/22 where they had more success in the group but they still conceded 10 or more shots in 4 of the 6 group games. They weren't conceding chances to the extremes we are at the moment but they never consistently controlled games by restricting opponent's chances, most of their matches were still quite open.

Adnan said:

Agreed.

The question Gullitt is posing in that clip is about having certain players designated to help control the defensive transition when you lose the ball in a highline setup where you have numerous players committed in the opponent's half. He then mentions a player like Fernandinho at City who is positioned to help contain and control situations when the space gets larger upon losing the ball. And he also mentions that Lasse Schone was someone that provided that option for Ajax.

And ten Hag's response to that is very simple and he clearly mentions that the rest defense is a important aspect in his approach but what his team does on the ball is even more important because the primary aim is to dominate the game on the ball. He goes on to mention how Guardiola himself has been sucker-punched on the counter numerous times. When he was Bayern coach and Real Madrid destroyed them on the counter, and several times against Solskjaer who came out on top by exposing the rest defense vulnerabilities out of possession which existed in Guardiola's team. Hence Guardiola had to rethink things and brought in players like Akanji and Ake to control the wide spaces in the backline due to their physical and athletic qualities. Fergie himself was done multiple times in Europe in the 90s when he went gung-ho in his quest to win the champinons league. And we did win the champions league, but the subsequent years saw us come a cropper against teams who took advantage of the spaces we left behind in defensive transition.

What we're seeing right now is ten Hag still attempting to instil a more proactive approach by not going full-out high press but going the hybrid route where he doesn't fully commit to the press hence the fullbacks don't always backup the high press. So the game against Liverpool was another example where in certain phases we go man to man when applying the press hence people think we have no midfield because in a bygone era it was normal to drop off instead of attempting to force mistakes higher up the pitch. And to be honest with you, those tactics worked because the alternative was to sit off and play a more passive/reactive game rather than attempt to disrupt Liverpool higher up the pitch. That then turned the game into a end to end game at times, and that suited us because Liverpool as a collective unit are better than us in possession as things stand.

When Solskjaer was the manager he utilised Fred and McTominay infront of Lindelof and Maguire. So eventhough Fred and McTominay weren't the best on the ball, their energy and ground coverage meant that the likes of Maguire and Lindelof weren't exposed in the channels in 1v1s. So when ten Hag arrived he broke that partnership up in midfield and we did well in his first season, but not signing Amadou Onana and Todibo who are large space compactors/ground eaters out of possession due to Maguire and Mctominay refusing to leave, meant our out of possession game is still weak in comparison to out rivals. The injuries to key men for large periods of the season has made it worse, but we just don't have players in defense and midfield who can eat up ground and dominate ground duels.

I've been saying for years that we should sign players who will help us control/contain transitions out of possession. Players who have the pace and power to compliment the more technical players in possession to create a system of play where we don't over burden our more technical players in possession where they're being asked to do things that expose their weaknesses out of possession.

Like I've said numerous times, we need two CBs and at least one midfielder who will be specialists in helping us control the defensive transitions when we turn over possession with a high volume of players committed into the opponent's half. We don't have those players and the potential to improve significantly is absolutely there for this team if we bring in the right profiles imo. The foundation of our team is weak from a physical and athletic level hence teams like Brentford can utilise their superior physicality and out-duel us in our own half hence pinning us back in our box and bombarding our box with a high volume of Brentford players and crosses.

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Agree with the rest of your post but the bolded part.

I think against Brentford the players let everyone down with a lack of energy and intensity. Ultimately still on the manager but at the very least you have to match the opponents work rate. Otherwise you'll see performances like Brentford and Newcastle away.

Berbaclass said:

Interesting insight, don't think it's been posted.

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I have a problem with this clip being used as an example of "ETH always played like this." The Bayern scenario is really the only one that happens multiple times a match. The first one can happen when any team is pressed high. The 2nd one where real score is very good play by them. Ajax had decent numbers back. The 4th one is again just good pressing by Benfica, risk you take when you keep the ball and bait the opponents to press.

The 3rd one where Bayern defend the cross and then are on to Ajax, that's one we see multiple times in every match. In that clip he clearly says that's a mistake. Question is why do we see it so often every match? Is it because the players are not good enough ( physically, tactically) which probably is true but there is usually ways to mitigate your problems and maximize your advantages. Feel like ETH is failing big time there.

Fortitude said:

They aren't the only managers doing this in the league; the much talked about De Zerbi constantly applies and reapplies new ideas and tweaks, some fail, some don't, but he isn't afraid to venture out and find ways to round out his desired style of play. ten Hag is like a plank of wood by contrast. He won't look to new things; he won't modify what is clearly not working or look to branch out from his initial set of principles, and it's actually really sad to see. He is proving to not be a modern manager in the sense he won't change, even a little bit let alone make the sweeping changes we've seen other managers take on and show growth by doing so.

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I'm sorry but this is just wrong. I would also ask: what is so sad about having good game, win stats, good against goal stats(we defend well, even with 3rd rate defenders), personally he has yet to dip into a 3 game loss run, the kind that Arteta showed a few times in his first years. We may play a bad game but more often than not, resultwise but also in entertainment, we produce the next game. A win and a draw in the last 4 weeks vs LFC, in our current state, is not bad.

For one, Ten Hag was hired with a main task: give United a new identity and stick with with it. It was Ole's constant tinkering what messed up this group. Then 4-3-3, then 5-3-2, then 3-5-2 then 3-4-3 and everything in between and sometimes during a match. These players could not follow at all.

Then we had Rangnick, who did much of the same, even crazier, to 4-2-2-2 etc. And he failed as well.

Only when Ten Hag started he implemented a 4-2-3-1 and caries much variation through it, the system worked, players followed and until not long ago Ten Hag was the most win rate united coach. After his first 2 big losses he shifted to a more conventional approach but for season 23 24 he had a new goalkeeper and shifted in attack very much to 4-1-4-1. The pre-season games wasnt succesful but man did I got shocked to see how much Shaw for instance, was used as alternative forward, ending up quite a few times 1:1 with opposition keeper. And it looked fantastic. Then Mainoo got injured, Rashford failed at the 9 and it would take 2 more months to just have a new forward in Hojlund (if you count Martial as forward. I don't think he is much of that.)

Currently he tinkers so much that Dalot ends up playing LB and ive seen Maguire play winger or centre forward, for instance. Klopp and Pep got well in a fight because they did not know how Ten Hag set up United, who was our focal point and wich of their precious midfielders would get the mother of all presses by 3 or 4 of our guys.

So saying Ten Hag is wood compared to magic de Zerbi (''fantastic 53% control'' vs Arsenal. oh, and lost 0 - 3) isn't right.

By al means blame Ten Hag but not being flexible enough isn't fair or accurate. On the whole run at least (I do recall being somewhat angry at some CL games for not changing earlier to defensive mode, but we've seen lately what happens when Ten Hag asks his players to pass more conservatively: they crumble) Ten Hag is a tinkering man and yet instilled an identity at United that was lost for many, many years. Imo this is one of his better traits.

Adnan said:

Agreed.

The question Gullitt is posing in that clip is about having certain players designated to help control the defensive transition when you lose the ball in a highline setup where you have numerous players committed in the opponent's half. He then mentions a player like Fernandinho at City who is positioned to help contain and control situations when the space gets larger upon losing the ball. And he also mentions that Lasse Schone was someone that provided that option for Ajax.

And ten Hag's response to that is very simple and he clearly mentions that the rest defense is a important aspect in his approach but what his team does on the ball is even more important because the primary aim is to dominate the game on the ball. He goes on to mention how Guardiola himself has been sucker-punched on the counter numerous times. When he was Bayern coach and Real Madrid destroyed them on the counter, and several times against Solskjaer who came out on top by exposing the rest defense vulnerabilities out of possession which existed in Guardiola's team. Hence Guardiola had to rethink things and brought in players like Akanji and Ake to control the wide spaces in the backline due to their physical and athletic qualities. Fergie himself was done multiple times in Europe in the 90s when he went gung-ho in his quest to win the champinons league. And we did win the champions league, but the subsequent years saw us come a cropper against teams who took advantage of the spaces we left behind in defensive transition.

What we're seeing right now is ten Hag still attempting to instil a more proactive approach by not going full-out high press but going the hybrid route where he doesn't fully commit to the press hence the fullbacks don't always backup the high press. So the game against Liverpool was another example where in certain phases we go man to man when applying the press hence people think we have no midfield because in a bygone era it was normal to drop off instead of attempting to force mistakes higher up the pitch. And to be honest with you, those tactics worked because the alternative was to sit off and play a more passive/reactive game rather than attempt to disrupt Liverpool higher up the pitch. That then turned the game into a end to end game at times, and that suited us because Liverpool as a collective unit are better than us in possession as things stand.

When Solskjaer was the manager he utilised Fred and McTominay infront of Lindelof and Maguire. So eventhough Fred and McTominay weren't the best on the ball, their energy and ground coverage meant that the likes of Maguire and Lindelof weren't exposed in the channels in 1v1s. So when ten Hag arrived he broke that partnership up in midfield and we did well in his first season, but not signing Amadou Onana and Todibo who are large space compactors/ground eaters out of possession due to Maguire and Mctominay refusing to leave, meant our out of possession game is still weak in comparison to out rivals. The injuries to key men for large periods of the season has made it worse, but we just don't have players in defense and midfield who can eat up ground and dominate ground duels.

I've been saying for years that we should sign players who will help us control/contain transitions out of possession. Players who have the pace and power to compliment the more technical players in possession to create a system of play where we don't over burden our more technical players in possession where they're being asked to do things that expose their weaknesses out of possession.

Like I've said numerous times, we need two CBs and at least one midfielder who will be specialists in helping us control the defensive transitions when we turn over possession with a high volume of players committed into the opponent's half. We don't have those players and the potential to improve significantly is absolutely there for this team if we bring in the right profiles imo. The foundation of our team is weak from a physical and athletic level hence teams like Brentford can utilise their superior physicality and out-duel us in our own half hence pinning us back in our box and bombarding our box with a high volume of Brentford players and crosses.

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As always, good post.

Fortitude said:

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I don't have a discussion point but just wanted to say this is a great video and I haven't watched this one before. Thanks for sharing!

miliebrowndivorceattorney said:

I'm sorry but this is just wrong. I would also ask: what is so sad about having good against goal stats(we defend well, even with 3rd rate defenders)

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United don't have that this season.

"He'll be ace when he gets the right players"

Wonderful!

The entire midfield is his - Casemiro, Amrabat, Mount & Mainoo are all his players.
The Goalkeeper - Who was supposed to help increase our scoring (Remember that gem?) is his.
Two of the front three - Antony and Rasmus are his choices. He was lucky to inherit an exciting young talent in Garnacho.

But yeah, we'll be rocking when he gets the "right players"

Can't wait for Mr Ten Hack to show us the promised land. It's coming!

miliebrowndivorceattorney said:

I'm sorry but this is just wrong. I would also ask: what is so sad about having good game, win stats, good against goal stats(we defend well, even with 3rd rate defenders), personally he has yet to dip into a 3 game loss run, the kind that Arteta showed a few times in his first years. We may play a bad game but more often than not, resultwise but also in entertainment, we produce the next game. A win and a draw in the last 4 weeks vs LFC, in our current state, is not bad.

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Who are the 3rd rate defenders?

miliebrowndivorceattorney said:

I'm sorry but this is just wrong. I would also ask: what is so sad about having good game, win stats, good against goal stats(we defend well, even with 3rd rate defenders), personally he has yet to dip into a 3 game loss run, the kind that Arteta showed a few times in his first years. We may play a bad game but more often than not, resultwise but also in entertainment, we produce the next game. A win and a draw in the last 4 weeks vs LFC, in our current state, is not bad.

For one, Ten Hag was hired with a main task: give United a new identity and stick with with it. It was Ole's constant tinkering what messed up this group. Then 4-3-3, then 5-3-2, then 3-5-2 then 3-4-3 and everything in between and sometimes during a match. These players could not follow at all.

Then we had Rangnick, who did much of the same, even crazier, to 4-2-2-2 etc. And he failed as well.

Only when Ten Hag started he implemented a 4-2-3-1 and caries much variation through it, the system worked, players followed and until not long ago Ten Hag was the most win rate united coach. After his first 2 big losses he shifted to a more conventional approach but for season 23 24 he had a new goalkeeper and shifted in attack very much to 4-1-4-1. The pre-season games wasnt succesful but man did I got shocked to see how much Shaw for instance, was used as alternative forward, ending up quite a few times 1:1 with opposition keeper. And it looked fantastic. Then Mainoo got injured, Rashford failed at the 9 and it would take 2 more months to just have a new forward in Hojlund (if you count Martial as forward. I don't think he is much of that.)

Currently he tinkers so much that Dalot ends up playing LB and ive seen Maguire play winger or centre forward, for instance. Klopp and Pep got well in a fight because they did not know how Ten Hag set up United, who was our focal point and wich of their precious midfielders would get the mother of all presses by 3 or 4 of our guys.

So saying Ten Hag is wood compared to magic de Zerbi (''fantastic 53% control'' vs Arsenal. oh, and lost 0 - 3) isn't right.

By al means blame Ten Hag but not being flexible enough isn't fair or accurate. On the whole run at least (I do recall being somewhat angry at some CL games for not changing earlier to defensive mode, but we've seen lately what happens when Ten Hag asks his players to pass more conservatively: they crumble) Ten Hag is a tinkering man and yet instilled an identity at United that was lost for many, many years. Imo this is one of his better traits.

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There was that one game where Ole brought on all the fullbacks, can't remember which one, but all the subs were either a right back or left back.

@Fortitude has a point, Dutch coaching style is very different and if you haven't grown up with that teaching, it's can be very hard even as a professional footballer to pick up all the finer details, if as he says the coach doesn't know how to bridge that knowledge gap. Which may very well be the case.

It's part of the reason I took comparisons to Ange and Emery lightly, their styles and instructions are very simplistic by comparison and players have adapted to them much quicker as a result.

The problem ETH has at Utd is simple, he lacks footballers with the intelligence and technical ability to play how he wants. LVG had a lot of better more intelligent players, that's why they were able to acclimatise and adapt to his style much quicker. Maybe he's a better teacher than ETH, but even still I think he'd struggle to get this group of players playing that way.

stevoc said:

Who are the 3rd rate defenders?

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Maybe the guy he bought or maybe the guy who has won multiple champions league medals or maybe our 80m purchase who has done reasonably well this season. Can be anyone as long as it makes Mr Hack look good.

Insanity said:

"He'll be ace when he gets the right players"

Wonderful!

The entire midfield is his - Casemiro, Amrabat, Mount & Mainoo are all his players.
The Goalkeeper - Who was supposed to help increase our scoring (Remember that gem?) is his.
Two of the front three - Antony and Rasmus are his choices. He was lucky to inherit an exciting young talent in Garnacho.

But yeah, we'll be rocking when he gets the "right players"

Can't wait for Mr Ten Hack to show us the promised land. It's coming!

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We heard the same way back under Moyes, laughably Van Gaal who signed like 14-15 players. And even Jose to an extent.

It's the narrative of the last chance saloon, if/when he gets sacked we'll hear how he never got enough time and/or a proper chance. Because apparently uniquely at United you need at least 3/4 years to get the team playing differently and you have to change almost the entire squad to do it.

mav_9me said:

I have a problem with this clip being used as an example of "ETH always played like this." The Bayern scenario is really the only one that happens multiple times a match. The first one can happen when any team is pressed high. The 2nd one where real score is very good play by them. Ajax had decent numbers back. The 4th one is again just good pressing by Benfica, risk you take when you keep the ball and bait the opponents to press.

The 3rd one where Bayern defend the cross and then are on to Ajax, that's one we see multiple times in every match. In that clip he clearly says that's a mistake. Question is why do we see it so often every match? Is it because the players are not good enough ( physically, tactically) which probably is true but there is usually ways to mitigate your problems and maximize your advantages. Feel like ETH is failing big time there.

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But outside of the specific clips it's clear back then pundits and ex footballers had recognised how open ETH's team was.

Fast forward a few years and nothing has changed.

Insanity said:

"He'll be ace when he gets the right players"

Wonderful!

The entire midfield is his - Casemiro, Amrabat, Mount & Mainoo are all his players.
The Goalkeeper - Who was supposed to help increase our scoring (Remember that gem?) is his.
Two of the front three - Antony and Rasmus are his choices. He was lucky to inherit an exciting young talent in Garnacho.

But yeah, we'll be rocking when he gets the "right players"

Can't wait for Mr Ten Hack to show us the promised land. It's coming!

Click to expand...

Insanity.

stevoc said:

We heard the same way back under Moyes, laughably Van Gaal who signed like 14-15 players. And even Jose to an extent.

It's the narrative of the last chance saloon, if/when he gets sacked we'll hear how he never got enough time and/or a proper chance. Because apparently uniquely at United you need at least 3/4 years to get the team playing differently and you have to change almost the entire squad to do it.

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I used to think Arsenal have the most sanctimonious fans in the world, but I was wrong, it is us. The number of our fans who are willing to let this club go down the shitter just to look morally superior to others is mind boggling.

Insanity said:

"He'll be ace when he gets the right players"



Wonderful!



The entire midfield is his - Casemiro, Amrabat, Mount & Mainoo are all his players.

The Goalkeeper - Who was supposed to help increase our scoring (Remember that gem?) is his.

Two of the front three - Antony and Rasmus are his choices. He was lucky to inherit an exciting young talent in Garnacho.



But yeah, we'll be rocking when he gets the "right players"



Can't wait for Mr Ten Hack to show us the promised land. It's coming!

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Every side has to get the right players for the system. The question should really be do we like Ten Hag's vision expressed in the video? Even if we get his players, we will still be vulnerable to counter attacks, which is natural for a team that tries to dominate possession high up the pitch. It takes a lot of faith on what we've seen at United that we'll be able score enough in that system though.

Nagelsmann's philosophy isn't wildly different, so that would require the same investment. We probably just need to decide on a style and have potential managerial candidate that wouldn't need to overhaul the squad, but works for ten hag in this next season too.

Hats off to United fans. I am baffled that a manager who has underperformed all season, missing out on champions league spot by a margin, out of champions league in group stage is still being backed in here.

Ange at Spurs has come in and lost the club leading scorer is ahead. Emery who joined after Ten Hag is ahead at a smaller club. Yet fans think Ten Hag is the answer.

BenitoSTARR said:

I wanted to see the context of where he was positioned you can see I’ve since adjusted my view on this.

We are still set up perfectly though in that passage of play to do what we did.

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You know, it's ok from time to time to hold your hands up and admit you're wrong.

BenitoSTARR said:

Seen the wider view and you’re correct Salah is available out wide for a pass. Our structure though is perfect in that situation. Blocks central passing lanes and then when an inexperienced player makes a poor decision we are in the perfect shape to take advantage.

I agree it’s a poor decision made by Quansah. But I also can see with the wider angle we’re set up in the exact shape we should be.

The goal doesn’t happen without Quansah making a poor decision. It also happens because of our defensive structure.

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Salford_Red83 said:

You know, it's ok from time to time to hold your hands up and admit you're wrong.

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See above. As soon as I’d seen the wider clip I’ve adjusted my opinion accordingly.

Quansah makes a mistake by not passing to Salah. We then capitalised on his poor pass that resulted from our good structure. If the initial mistake isn’t made then we don’t get that chance but once the mistake is made the options he then has are limited due to our defensive structure.

Chumpsbechumps said:

Since when has being unsure on something the trait of a cultist ?

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Never. Which is why those who are unsure aren't the issue but rather those with unquestionable faith that you mentioned. I could somewhat understand why somebody would fall into that trap when it comes to someone like Jose and Ole but I don't understand why Ten Hag. He has zero charisma and no connections to the club. Why do we have so many fans who have unquestionable faith in him still, I don't know. Especially when those same fans have no faith in anyone else at the club. Sack the players, sack the board, sack the coaches but keep the manager because we can't judge him because of this and that.

If we continue with ten hag next season with the same tactics he is currently employing we're going to be having the same conversation about why our midfield is non existent.

Rista said:

Never. Which is why those who are unsure aren't the issue but rather those with unquestionable faith that you mentioned. I could somewhat understand why somebody would fall into that trap when it comes to someone like Jose and Ole but I don't understand why Ten Hag. He has zero charisma and no connections to the club. Why do we have so many fans who have unquestionable faith in him still, I don't know. Especially when those same fans have no faith in anyone else at the club. Sack the players, sack the board, sack the coaches but keep the manager because we can't judge him because of this and that.

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Has anyone got unquestionable faith in him?

I haven’t seen anyone with that view.

I believe there are fans who are willing to be a bit more patient and can see (if you squint) the makings of some good football on the horizon. But I don’t think anyone is blind to the issues we have and Ten Hag’s responsibility to address them.

Insanity said:

I used to think Arsenal have the most sanctimonious fans in the world, but I was wrong, it is us. The number of our fans who are willing to let this club go down the shitter just to look morally superior to others is mind boggling.

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The thing is too, that opposition fans are looking at what he's serving up and laughing at us. "More of the same please!" they say.

And we've got fans over here yelling "4 more years, a proper structure, more players and he'll come good. You'll see."

Madness.

Salford_Red83 said:

The thing is too, that opposition fans are looking at what he's serving up and laughing at us. "More of the same please!" they say.

And we've got fans over here yelling "4 more years, a proper structure, more players and he'll come good. You'll see."

Madness.

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Who is saying the bold?

Oranges038 said:

There was that one game where Ole brought on all the fullbacks, can't remember which one, but all the subs were either a right back or left back.

@Fortitude has a point, Dutch coaching style is very different and if you haven't grown up with that teaching, it's can be very hard even as a professional footballer to pick up all the finer details, if as he says the coach doesn't know how to bridge that knowledge gap. Which may very well be the case.

It's part of the reason I took comparisons to Ange and Emery lightly, their styles and instructions are very simplistic by comparison and players have adapted to them much quicker as a result.

The problem ETH has at Utd is simple, he lacks footballers with the intelligence and technical ability to play how he wants. LVG had a lot of better more intelligent players, that's why they were able to acclimatise and adapt to his style much quicker. Maybe he's a better teacher than ETH, but even still I think he'd struggle to get this group of players playing that way.

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I'm Dutch and a big Van Gaal school fan back in the day. I don't think Fortitude has a point for the arguments stated above. Plenty of evidence and facts prove Ten Hag is anything but ''wooden', does a lot of tinkering but in the meantime finally gives United a new, regular starting tactic in 4-2-3-1. And perhaps this is why we are still P6 after so many injuries: the subs don't have to learn new things. Positioning and tailor made instructions to say Maguire, Mctominay, its obvious for anyone to see.

Also, Pep Leijnders has been backbone of Klopp for years. Rene Meulensteen for SAF. Pep been schooled by lots of Dutch trainers. Arteta did schooling in The Netherlands. Somehow 'the Dutch system'' is well permeated through the PL and has been for years.

Ten Hag is a modern exponent but actually his style is not 'Dutch' at all. He plays way different. On top of that whatever the Dutch system was, its old and obsolete. And for all the Cruyff love, he, too, would just park the bus if it would mean a win.

I remain, what Ten Hag wants to play, requires players he doesn't have for the full. It is also quite unique. As a lot of top managers in the PL make it such a rich ground for tactical geniuses and show casing. I have full faith in him for the moment.

What would make you stop having that you might ask? If he has a 3 or more bad game run of losses. If after a succesfull summer transfers, next season sees no improvement and we hover P7. But I had that stance last year too, when I expected the Glazers to sell before the summer and give Ten Hag the means for a big overhaul.
Also, maybe even more important: I like watching Ten Hags united. Its full of fight, feisty and you never know how and if they come back but that they can fight back has been proved many times. I love it. I'm still buzzing over that LFC win.

ManRed said:

Hats off to United fans. I am baffled that a manager who has underperformed all season, missing out on champions league spot by a margin, out of champions league in group stage is still being backed in here.

Ange at Spurs has come in and lost the club leading scorer is ahead. Emery who joined after Ten Hag is ahead at a smaller club. Yet fans think Ten Hag is the answer.

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It's because many of "them" (us) are confused.

Under LvG, Jose and OGS, folks repeatedly called for the manager to be sacked, and some posters rallied against this, correctly identifying that their performances were as good as they could possibly be under the set-up at the time (Ed Woodward era).

Now finally most fans have come around to the idea that the problems at the club are bigger than the manager, which is of course correct - but it doesn't mean the manager is absolved of ANY kind of responsibility to get the team playing decently well.

So now we have the same fans that called for the likes of Jose and OGS to be sacked (after finishing 2nd twice, 3rd and winning the Europa League between them) arguing that EtH deserves time 'because our problems are bigger than him'.

The crucial bit of logic that they are missing is that this time, the manager is one of the problems, arguably THE biggest problem, since Woodward has now left the club.

Sure, we still make mistakes in the transfer market. Sure, we still have a lopsided squad with obvious deficiencies. Sure, we're living with the mistakes of the previous regime.

We're also playing horrible, chaotic, illogical football that sees us regularly dominated by teams like Brentford, Wolves and West Ham.

That's solely on the manager. This isn't, as some believe, a 'poor' group of footballers. Its not a great group of footballers, but clubs like Wolves, West Ham and Brentford would take the likes of Harry Maguire, Diego Dalot, Scott McTominay and Raphael Varane all day long in a vacuum - and that's before we get on to our "better" players.

Bottom line, people struggle generally when narratives aren't straightforward. It's either the managers fault or the Board's fault. They can deal with that level of thinking. When the truth is that both are at fault, and you have to do some critical thinking to understand the context and nuances of EtHs time at the clubs vs Ole vs Jose vs LvG etc...that's when logic completely falters and people stick doggedly to their 'gut feel'

Insanity said:

"He'll be ace when he gets the right players"

Wonderful!

The entire midfield is his - Casemiro, Amrabat, Mount & Mainoo are all his players.
The Goalkeeper - Who was supposed to help increase our scoring (Remember that gem?) is his.
Two of the front three - Antony and Rasmus are his choices. He was lucky to inherit an exciting young talent in Garnacho.

But yeah, we'll be rocking when he gets the "right players"

Can't wait for Mr Ten Hack to show us the promised land. It's coming!

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We just need the right "structure" that will pick the right players. And then the "structure" will also tell Ten Hag how we want to play.

And then the "structure" will call him during the games and tell him who to sub, because he can't get that right, either.

With that "structure" ETH will do great. Maybe.

Someone said:

Is it not ok to be unsure about something these days? Do we have to be certain about everything?

I'm just comfortable to admit that maybe the problems at this club are more complex than just sack this and sign that. A lot went wrong this season, and I don't anymore. So yeah I'm happily on the fence for now.

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Spot on this.

BenitoSTARR said:

Who is saying the bold?

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Six years patience = SAF

Lash said:

Every side has to get the right players for the system. The question should really be do we like Ten Hag's vision expressed in the video? Even if we get his players, we will still be vulnerable to counter attacks, which is natural for a team that tries to dominate possession high up the pitch. It takes a lot of faith on what we've seen at United that we'll be able score enough in that system though.

Nagelsmann's philosophy isn't wildly different, so that would require the same investment. We probably just need to decide on a style and have potential managerial candidate that wouldn't need to overhaul the squad, but works for ten hag in this next season too.

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Every manager has a vision. Even you or me or any Tom, Dick or Harry can have a vision. The 50 managers between Busby and Fergie had a vision That doesn't mean that they all have the ability and the nous to execute that vision. We have seen ETH for two seasons now and it should be pretty evident to everyone that he is not up to the task. We don't need to listen or read about his vision anymore. What we needed to believe in him was watch it being executed on the pitch, not listening to it on some show.

He came in and demanded a big say in the transfers. Then he went on and picked his ex Ajax players, the players who played for him previously or the players he was aware of from the Dutch league or elsewhere to execute his "vision" at this club. So far, he has failed spectacularly in every department - he hasn't recruited well, he hasn't implemented a good style of play, got us winning or laid a foundation for the future. However, now, Dan Ashworth and Joe Wilcox or whoever else will come and recruit players and suddenly he'll be able to implement his vision? How is that logical?

This "New Structure" has become kind of a Holy Grail and a potent excuse to defend this failing manager. Anyone will admit that we didn't have the right people in charge on the recruitment side of this club and is one of the main reasons we have been this shit the last XI years. However, the problem with the structure is that it indulges the managers too much and there is no one with the authority in those management positions. The structure has failed this club and us fans, not these fecking managers who have wasted money and walked out with huge payouts. We have allowed each and every manager to throw 500m down the drain without thinking about the long-term future of the club. Our cycle is - Get a new manager, call every player bought by the previous manager deadwood, buy him new toys worth half a billion dollars, make the finals of or win a mickey mouse cup or two for instant gratification and then sack them when they inevitably fail.

We simply have to accept the fact that he isn't good enough. Winning with Ajax and taking them to a single CL semi-final some years back is no guarantee that the manager will succeed at United. There have been plenty like DeBoer, Bosz etc. who won plenty with Ajax and then sold their vision to the world but failed to execute it elsewhere. ETH is no different. No structure can save him.

Spending 60m on a bench player, when your whole squad is shite alone should be a sackable offence

So much talk over a guy who is getting sacked in less than 2 months time regardless. I'm much more concerned about his replacement.

Rista said:

Never. Which is why those who are unsure aren't the issue but rather those with unquestionable faith that you mentioned. I could somewhat understand why somebody would fall into that trap when it comes to someone like Jose and Ole but I don't understand why Ten Hag. He has zero charisma and no connections to the club. Why do we have so many fans who have unquestionable faith in him still, I don't know. Especially when those same fans have no faith in anyone else at the club. Sack the players, sack the board, sack the coaches but keep the manager because we can't judge him because of this and that.

Click to expand...

BenitoSTARR said:

Has anyone got unquestionable faith in him?

I haven’t seen anyone with that view.

I believe there are fans who are willing to be a bit more patient and can see (if you squint) the makings of some good football on the horizon. But I don’t think anyone is blind to the issues we have and Ten Hag’s responsibility to address them.

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I think what happens is that when some people consistently defend him or try and look at any positives or mitigating issues, others can interpret it as as blanket defence. I see it in general as an effort by some to even out discussions, because nothing for me is ever absolute.

Sometimes trusting in managers pays off and sometimes it compounds problems. With ETH , the other issues at the club and the fact that the players (who are usually quick to dump on a manager they feel is done) are still believing in some capacity on what he’s trying to do, suggests there maybe some hope.

I have gotten really frustrated at times but don’t always post it here. Not because I simply don’t want to post negative stuff about ETH, but because I feel there’s enough negative stuff written about him that I don’t need to pile into it.

While I whinge at fans whinging , I do understand and share their frustrations. But to make a full disclosure, since Woodward took over and signed fellaini (in that absolute comical transfer window) I’ve ALWAYS felt that the bigger issues for us are above our managers.

I know we could of hired different or better managers. I didn’t want Jose but I got behind him when he was hired. I thought ole appointment was a joke but I got behind him. I didn’t know what to think of ETH, but I am behind him.

My stance isn’t that “every manager deserves loads of time and patience and money and the perfect squad. My stance is that every manager is working in a dysfunctional setup and the spending only masks the underlying issues that seperate us from city.

Honestly , I think United should ALWAYS be in the top 4 regardless of manager. I think a well run United can have a nobody as manager and the team should be strong enough to cruise above spurs/villa.

And the reason I feel that way is because there is no other super club or club even near our spending that is so inconsistent. Chelsea were fine under Roman , spend more under Boehly and look a mess. I feel that’s comparable with us.

Glazers showing absolute contempt for upgrading the ckub to a modern football club is what’s held us back. They don’t train the players or necessarily pick who we sign, but they influence everything by who they put in charge of different areas.

Im always saying to my son (who is really ambitious) that there are two versions of him. One who

- gets proper rest
- eats the right food before/after games
- does his own excercise out of training
- works hard to be better all the time
- works on the mental aspect of his game , particularly when things go bad/wrong (we’ve come up with techniques that help him)
- always Attends training
- prioritises his football
- gets a balance with healthy alternative hobbies
- keeps in touch with friends
- tries his best in school (good for discipline in general)
- tries to be positive to team mates and to lift them up in games they are losing
- is always looking to learn (use martial as example where he said he didn’t listen to coaches when he was younger and injuries have hit his pace which hits his confidence)

There’s other things but I’ve said to him , there is a player who shows up for training and plays matches and there’s a player who does all the things I’ve mentioned above. Which player is going to be a better footballer ?

I feel the same with man United. Before you even look at the quality of players or managers we have , we have a club that simply throws money into a kitty but does nothing else to improve our chances of success.

All the 1% differences have had a massive compounded effect on our failures. I mean even if we look at transfers and contracts:

- negotiating for transfers and contracts poorly
- means we can’t offload players and stuck with ones nobody wants to pa
- means when we buy players we over pay
- means greater pressure on players with bigger price tag
- means greater pressure on squad with higher price tag (but we haven’t got a squad that warrants the price tag)
- means managers will take longer to get a balanced squad
- retaining players just to keep squad book value up

I mean , I’m sure there’s other stuff but this is where I’m coming from. You put any United manager of the last 11 years at city or even Liverpool and they do better simply because those clubs are better run, better negotiating and are better at equipping their managers to do well.

I realise this is a fans forum, but some of this discourse is borderline madness.

For me it's actually simple: do I believe a different (available) manager with the same issues ETH has, this same squad of players, could be doing better than where we are? Yes, I do. I think an incredibly pragmatic, negative manager could organise us well, get a bank of 5 in front of a deep back 4 and rely on the outball to create chances for our fast strikers. We would probably have more points than we do this season, and broadly be in line with Spurs and Villa. Around 4th.

But that is as far as we'd ever get with that system. Ole had better players, at better points in their career and couldn't push it forward. Plus, all the same fans demanding a shiny new mangaer were the same ones complaining about that style in the first place.

ETH came in and is trying (and failing right now) to implement modern football at a club that hasn't modernised anything in 15 years. He's shipped over 20 members of the first team squad, and not come close to replacing those numbers. He's been hamstrung by 3 of his key signings basically not playing football this year. He doesn't have a LB to field, and similarly has gone weeks without a CF. He has played our first choice back 4 precisely once this season.

From all those that have spent time with him, he's smart, driven and passionate about Manchester United. He has coaching pedigree. It's not working right now - for sure - but for all the criticism of his decision to go donut, if not for a few borderline penalty decisions, this conversation would almost be moot.

So for those so desperate to get him out and bring in someone like De Zerbi - what on God's green Earth makes you think that the XI players a new manger would be able to field could progress our style?

Insanity said:

Every manager has a vision. Even you or me or any Tom, Dick or Harry can have a vision. The 50 managers between Busby and Fergie had a vision That doesn't mean that they all have the ability and the nous to execute that vision. We have seen ETH for two seasons now and it should be pretty evident to everyone that he is not up to the task. We don't need to listen or read about his vision anymore. What we needed to believe in him was watch it being executed on the pitch, not listening to it on some show.

He came in and demanded a big say in the transfers. Then he went on and picked his ex Ajax players, the players who played for him previously or the players he was aware of from the Dutch league or elsewhere to execute his "vision" at this club. So far, he has failed spectacularly in every department - he hasn't recruited well, he hasn't implemented a good style of play, got us winning or laid a foundation for the future. However, now, Dan Ashworth and Joe Wilcox or whoever else will come and recruit players and suddenly he'll be able to implement his vision? How is that logical?

This "New Structure" has become kind of a Holy Grail and a potent excuse to defend this failing manager. Anyone will admit that we didn't have the right people in charge on the recruitment side of this club and is one of the main reasons we have been this shit the last XI years. However, the problem with the structure is that it indulges the managers too much and there is no one with the authority in those management positions. The structure has failed this club and us fans, not these fecking managers who have wasted money and walked out with huge payouts. We have allowed each and every manager to throw 500m down the drain without thinking about the long-term future of the club. Our cycle is - Get a new manager, call every player bought by the previous manager deadwood, buy him new toys worth half a billion dollars, make the finals of or win a mickey mouse cup or two for instant gratification and then sack them when they inevitably fail.

We simply have to accept the fact that he isn't good enough. Winning with Ajax and taking them to a single CL semi-final some years back is no guarantee that the manager will succeed at United. There have been plenty like DeBoer, Bosz etc. who won plenty with Ajax and then sold their vision to the world but failed to execute it elsewhere. ETH is no different. No structure can save him.

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Yet you want to just repeat it by just sacking him? Why not actually let the new structure give a coach what they deem the requisite players to execute the collective vision. If he can't do it next year, his contract is up - what's the problem? If we sack him, we then have to:

a) find someone available and potentially pay for them
b) find someone who fits the style we want to implement
c) sign players to implement style
d) give them time to get the team into the style required.

We have to do c) regardless. Why not break the cycle of giving the manager free reign on transfers and give him one final season with a proper functioning football operation behind him? If he can't do it then, he obviously isn't the manager for us. You have to hope in the summer this lot will not sign players a la Casemiro, Varane and overpay for Antony, so the players they sign will not be deadwood for a new manager.