To be fair, from an organizational point of view, Lisandro would also be considered a “to be determined” transfer. He’s been injured so often now, if he has another season like this, he would be considered a bad signing. I really like Licha’s mentality an ruthlessness, but he’s far from the best CB in the league. He won 50% of his aerial duels last season, which isn’t great. He’s good on the ball, but not elite IMHO.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I've said it before, I like Martinez but fecking hell, he's very overrated on here. His tenacity gives him a lot of leeway when in actuality he's been ripped apart more times than I would have liked.I never realized I lived rent free in your head. "One of the best CBs in the league"
Eriksen was a free and frankly we needed him, Amrabat is a loan, Mount hasn't played.
Casemiro has fell off this year but scored in the final last year and needs to go really.
I don't need to speak on Antony
That’s true. I’m not sure this is accurate and I’m too lazy to verify it, but my guess is that net spend declines in the years we do not make the CL. If there is additional capital that is needed to fund transfers, it would come from Sir Jim and would require board approval to dilute other shareholders (the Glazers, specifically).
I don’t know anyone beyond blinkered United fans who think he is up to much. He’s a good defender but nothing more. Part of the 6-3 and 7-0 crew too.
I see him as a good CB tbh but I don't consider him as one of the best in the league even if 100% fit.
Ye I get what you’re saying and would understand if it was just the Dutch league but did he not overachieve in the CL with them? He went to Madrid and battered them 4-0. And he had a weaker squad than they had. Alls I’m saying is if he had stayed at Ajax and say won another league/cup then his stock would be higher and you’d get bigger European teams looking at you. Look at Liverpool now, there taking a gamble on a Dutch manager who’s not even won the league this season… when we got ETH he came of the back of a league title and some of his players only left because he did.
I think it is clear (heh) that he doesn‘t mean McT is a playmaking no 10. Seems to me many people are interpreting his words based on negative emotions rather than logic.
So to circle back to how McT has been playing: he constantly moves into dangerous areas which creates chances for himself and for others. He‘s olaying the shadow striker role that Van De Beek and Sabitzer played.
Substituting Mainoo when he is not been dominant for McT with fresh legs is also completely logical.
Basically every decision or occurrence is now blamed on Ten Hag with some bonkers reasoning.
He won 50%, but didn‘t lose the other 50%. Martinez will often let the other player head the ball while he nudges them and vacuums up the second ball.
Yeah judging him is very relative. He looked great first season, especially compared to i.e. Timber, because Timber immediately got a season ending injury.
But compared to other CBs we could have signed, like Kim, fitness record and playstyle comes into it. Not that Martinez was injury prone (might well be now) but his playstyle is more likely to get him badly injured, similar to Phil Jones.
And if he doesnt recover the fitness he had in the first season then he'd also go down as a really poor signing.
The sample size is small I'd agree so it's hard to say he's 'elite' but based on the eye test playing for a poorly set up team (i.e options are so limited), his ability on the ball is pretty fecking top tier.
Who would you regard as elite? Or is it simply a matter of consistency/longevity?
Martinez is definitely overrated on here. I'm very doubtful a new manager will fancy him at CB in a back 4.
Ten Hag thinking that is a bit of a stretch in my opinion, if I'm being honest. Personally I think he was just talking bollocks, which is what his press conferences mostly consist of these days. Like him saying we're one of the most exciting and dynamic teams in the country.
McTominay does float around and makes runs into the box, but he mostly just creates space in behind himself for the opposition to run into. I don't particularly see it as a positive as it usually leaves us light in midfield, it's been a problem all season when he's played. But I do appreciate that Ten Hag is probably asking him to do this.
What am I blaming Ten Hag on again?
Yes, Bayern confirmed that they made an offer and that Rangnick currently is the only candidate they are talking to. So it's up to him now if he takes the job.
He would be sacked at Bayern after 6 months. They had more manager thab we since 2013
Everything. It‘s ok mate.
Watching the quarters and semis makes me wonder how bad our squad actually is. Madrids and Citys are clearly a level above, but look at this bayern team, who beat us twice and I dont doubt would really beat us well in a crunch match:
ERIC DIER is starting centre back tonight. Kim Min Jae hasnt lived up to expectations. Kimmich is an excellent player, out of position. Is Mazraoi better than shaw? I know de ligt is out, but is that defence much better than dalot, martinez, shaw, maguire, varane, wan bissaka - in terms of options?
Then the midfield: Laimer and Goretzka would likely walk into our team, but we wouldnt swap either for mainoo and neither would displace fernandes. one of them would come in to partner mainoo, who I think would start at bayern. So would Fernandes despite then ridiculous hyperbole on here. Muller in currently that central attacker and at 34, he just isnt the player he was. Its another area that they are superior, but not by much, and probably highlights just how badly we need a top partner for mainoo.
Lastly, the attack. Musiala, Sane and Kane is clearly superior to what we have. Kane a game changing top level difference. But for all his talent, Musiala is still not a world class player and consistent, and sane has always blown hot and cold. Garnacho is a similarly huge potential youngster, and the glaring difference in quality comes in the second wide player and attacker.
My overall point is that there is clearly a difference in quality, but that by improving 3 or 4 positions we could expect a huge improvement. Looking at PSG and Dortmund, I dont feel any different. Injuries have defintiely hampered us this season, theres just no question that lacking martinez and shaw especially has unsettled our left side massively.
I like ten hag, but we should be getting more from this squad, assuming we do not suffer that level of injuries again, and that we recruit well.
ERIC DIER is starting centre back tonight. Kim Min Jae hasnt lived up to expectations. Kimmich is an excellent player, out of position. Is Mazraoi better than shaw? I know de ligt is out, but is that defence much better than dalot, martinez, shaw, maguire, varane, wan bissaka - in terms of options?
Then the midfield: Laimer and Goretzka would likely walk into our team, but we wouldnt swap either for mainoo and neither would displace fernandes. one of them would come in to partner mainoo, who I think would start at bayern. So would Fernandes despite then ridiculous hyperbole on here. Muller in currently that central attacker and at 34, he just isnt the player he was. Its another area that they are superior, but not by much, and probably highlights just how badly we need a top partner for mainoo.
Lastly, the attack. Musiala, Sane and Kane is clearly superior to what we have. Kane a game changing top level difference. But for all his talent, Musiala is still not a world class player and consistent, and sane has always blown hot and cold. Garnacho is a similarly huge potential youngster, and the glaring difference in quality comes in the second wide player and attacker.
My overall point is that there is clearly a difference in quality, but that by improving 3 or 4 positions we could expect a huge improvement. Looking at PSG and Dortmund, I dont feel any different. Injuries have defintiely hampered us this season, theres just no question that lacking martinez and shaw especially has unsettled our left side massively.
I like ten hag, but we should be getting more from this squad, assuming we do not suffer that level of injuries again, and that we recruit well.
Exactly and it takes an objective assessment to see this. The team is unmistakably nowhere near as bad as fans and the media are making out. Not to mention it's been fringe players who have saved Erik an absolute tactical embarrassment this season against poor opposition through late goal contributions.
I also thought Bayern were poor in the group stages, they were there for the taking and United could have easily qualified if the manager provided the players a good foundation to build from.
We sure can get more from our squad but look at who has played in our defense this season. With Martinez and Varane we have two solid cb’s if they were playing. After that, the quality drops off a lot.
Well obviously not.
yes absolutely. Its all good and well mentioning shaw, varane and martinez - but theyve hardly played. As I said, a consistent CB, LB and casemiro upgrade alone, would and should hugely improve a team that does have some talent in it.
We won't know until we get a few players back and a different manager who lines these players upto their strengths in a more structured system. Signings can make a huge difference of course, we've lost a lot of players the last 2 years and recruited poorly. That's the big change that will push us up a few levels if the club can get good at buying and selling.
I don’t think the team is poor, I DO think the squad is poor (if that makes sense). It’s an amalgamation of a million different profiles, philosophies, and makeups that do a terrible job of complimenting each other at all.
Now a lot of that falls on Ten Hags shoulders as well as he’s the one that’s targeted and enabled many of these players as well as set up his teams to play a style that many aren’t suited for at all.
My lingering doubts in ten hag's favour are, without those extensive injuries, we're essentially at the end of last season, feeling sort of optimistic, hoping 3 or 4 signings steps us up a level. So with the emergence of mainoo ad garnacho, we're still about the same. Could he, with martinez and shaw fit, and those key signings, actually deliver. And is there an obvious candidate at the moment that would.
Jesus.. this place.
Bruno out.. Martinez over-rated.
Do these supporters really deserve better results?
Bruno out.. Martinez over-rated.
Do these supporters really deserve better results?
Sure. That is correct. Thanks for the math lesson.
I think 60% is considered average for CBs with elite aerial duel % at 70+
He’s pretty good at being tenacious at grabbing that 2nd ball at the halfway line, but it doesn’t really help you when defending set Pieces.
I don’t think we had a chance in hell to sign Kim.
Lisandro has played roughly only 25 league matches most of his career and mid/low 40 appearances every season. It’s possible the PL is too physical for him to log 55/60 match seasons. I mean, I think it’s tough at this level for anyone to play 50+. The point is, if we have to have him fit every single match otherwise our defense and attack will crumble, it’s a hell of a gamble to take. The Ten Hag in group would make you think he’s integral to both our attack and defense, whereas over the course of the season, it’s more like +5 goals when he’s in there vs his replacement.
CBs in the PL that I’d rather have than Lisandro:
Dias
Gvardiol
Akanji (super underrated IMHO)
Van Djik
Konate
Saliba
Gabriel
Schar
Botman
Ake
Stones
I like my CBs to have pace and tenacity and to pop up with goals every now and again.
I just think that when you look at his injury record and the fact that he’s not great in the air and he doesn’t have elite pace, his ceiling is an above average CB, that’s it.
I mean… we’re not saying Martinez isn’t a good player. We’re saying he’s an above average CB, but he’s not elite. We’re also saying he’s injured frequently and when he is, he doesn’t help us.
Hargreaves was incredible for a season, so much so that many thought he was the best DM in the world. After that, he was injured, so… yeah, not so much.
Ah, I should have been clearer, I was talking specifically about ability on the ball. You said he's not elite and whilst I may not disagree, I think he's closer to the top than just being 'good', which is above average for me.
Edit: I've just reread your original post again. Perhaps you meant 'he's good on the ball (and despite this), he's not elite (as an overall defender)?'
Yeah Martinez is clearly one of the best in the world CB’s on the ball. But agree with the quoted post that his lack of top pace/strength coupled with the obvious height issue means he struggles in situations other top CB’s wouldn’t especially when it comes to defending wide spaces.
Thus it becomes a tactical issue all over again where from day 1 you are trying to compensate for your “best CB” having a clear weakness (same thing happened when we bought Maguire).
One of the best if not the best cb last season in PL.
What he lacks in height he makes up for with his aggression, and he is a top tier cb for his progressive passing and press resistance.
Not sure whether he is injury prone. Was he at Ajax? His second injury this season was an accident (or a deliberate action).
Yeah that's fair. I don't disagree in theory but I would like to see how we would actually fair with him as our first choice CB in an organised set up with an actual midfield next year. I'm too invested in the butcher
Unless we sign two first choice centre backs, he's likely going to be there anyways. Or if we get Tuchel and play a back 3, his 'clear weaknesses' might be mitigated and we get to see even more of his passing too.
You're preaching to the choir mate but I do agree with with some of your points about his aerial success rate, which I've commenting on before. In open play, I don't recall many times where I think he's done poorly 'winning' it or not as he's very good at using his low centre of gravity to make the attacker not do anything special with that header 'won'. In set pieces is where the issue is as he can't simply keep up with players with a running jump. I still think he does well here with his movement but he can be lacking if we don't have a Casemiro/McT as well on the pitch.
And that is the crux of the matter and why most of the discussion on here is mostly pointless. Even with injuries taken into account he should be getting more out of these players, absolutely no question about that. He's setting them up to fail. He is leaving us with no midfield on purpose and the amount of shots against us every game is a direct consequence of his tactical setup. If he's so inflexible that his system only works with very specific, all fit players then we are never getting anywhere with him long term. He's already saying he needs new signings and some luck with injuries to fight for 4th next season. We can't aim for title challenge yet but come on, 4th has been the minimum objective for every manager post SAF.
One of the biggest mistakes was not making players acountable for form or performance. I get we had injuries but sometimes putting a less experienced - or even inferior player - in for someone for a few games is a sacrifice you need to make in order to make a point and prove to the player you'd dropped that there are standards and expectations that need to be met, regardless of who you are.
Play crap, automatically start the next game. It has a corosive effect on performance, standards and results. Very quickly you'll get performances that reflect the fact that each week nobody's evidently that worried about losing their match starting bonus for the following game
Play crap, automatically start the next game. It has a corosive effect on performance, standards and results. Very quickly you'll get performances that reflect the fact that each week nobody's evidently that worried about losing their match starting bonus for the following game
Agree, when he is on the pitch you definitely need the other cb to have strong heading.Yeah that's fair. I don't disagree in theory but I would like to see how we would actually fair with him as our first choice CB in an organised set up with an actual midfield next year. I'm too invested in the butcher
Unless we sign two first choice centre backs, he's likely going to be there anyways. Or if we get Tuchel and play a back 3, his 'clear weaknesses' might be mitigated and we get to see even more of his passing too.
You're preaching to the choir mate but I do agree with with some of your points about his aerial success rate, which I've commenting on before. In open play, I don't recall many times where I think he's done poorly 'winning' it or not as he's very good at using his low centre of gravity to make the attacker not do anything special with that header 'won'. In set pieces is where the issue is as he can't simply keep up with players with a running jump. I still think he does well here with his movement but he can be lacking if we don't have a Casemiro/McT as well on the pitch.
In a team you are always looking for balance, it is no different for Martinez unless one is dogmatic and has to have tall cb‘s. That would be dumb, because Licha has not been exposed that often has he?
I don't think Tuchel would play a back 3 with us, he only did that at Chelsea to maximize what he had with that strange squad.Yeah that's fair. I don't disagree in theory but I would like to see how we would actually fair with him as our first choice CB in an organised set up with an actual midfield next year. I'm too invested in the butcher
Unless we sign two first choice centre backs, he's likely going to be there anyways. Or if we get Tuchel and play a back 3, his 'clear weaknesses' might be mitigated and we get to see even more of his passing too.
And yeah I love Martinez don't get me wrong. Just think in an elite team he's best served as a swiss army knife type that can play CB, LB, and cover at DM in different setups as opposed to being relied on as the main man LCB (both because of concerns I mentioned earlier as well as it putting more pressure on him to stay fit, which remains to be seen after this year).
I didn't say that we lost only because of him. I said those games exposed his limitations.
Not everything is black or white, there is a lot of room between unquestioned, dedicated, blind reverence to a player & "hating a player".
- 95 out of 100 people will say that they like Martinez's tenacity and aggression.
- 95 out of 100 will admit that he has elite ball playing skills for a central defender.
- 90 out of 100 will see him as a good defender.
However, that doesn't mean that you cannot point out some of his limitations. His size and lack of pace is a definite hindrance in him becoming a truly elite central defender. Especially in a league where teams are famous for their pace and strength. Also, I am not saying that he should be sold or is completely useless. I am merely suggesting that his long term future might be in a 3 man defense, as a wing-back or as an inverted left back. Which means that in the summer we'll have to go get a LCB who is more suited to the demands of the league.
Wait a minute, he jumps with them just to let them win the header in order to mop up the 2nd ball ? That's fecking genius.
@Insanity Very good post. For me it's very simple, if we look at the current and past best teams in the world, we'll easily notice that their CBs averaged a certain height and that's whether we are talking about England/Spain/Germany etc etc...
No, I don't think he could deliver. If we persist with Ten Hag I think we're looking at more of the same regardless of the squad, better players signed and better fitness will certainly improve our league position but last year we were hoping 3-4 signings might put us into the mix for a title challenge. This year with how badly we've been setup and performed we're hoping a few signings puts us into the mix for a 4th place challenge. And I think that'll be Ten Hags ceiling, given his own drastic lowering of expectations over the last 6 months I think he realizes that too.
De Gea, Henderson, Telles, Matić, Fred, Pogba, Elanga, Ronaldo and Cavani all featured regularly under Ole/Rangnick across the 20/21 and 21/22 seasons.
They've been moved on and replaced by Onana, Bayindir, Malacia Mainoo/Amrabat, Eriksen, Casemiro, Garnacho, Weghorst and Højlund.
A backup ST should have been signed due to Martial's unreliableness. But other than that, those players were replaced.
This is ten Hag's squad now.
We have some serious talent in this squad which was evident when we bought them, just look back at the excitement generated by fans when the signings were announced. What we don't have is a defined style of play, which has nothing to do with the injuries we have. After 2 seasons that is unacceptable and is down to EtH. I personally think the job is too big for him and he'd be better off going back to Ajax with our good wishes.