Well said
1 win in 17 against non-relegated teams.
- Thread starter SER19
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Yes
YES. More.
MORE.
MOAR!
MOARRR
Just pin this post on every page.
No other argument has merit or is any way reasonable in the context what has happened outside looking at just scorelines.
Don't understand why some people are whining about this thread. It's perfectly fine to acknowledge that Amorim inherited a shit situation and that there are understandable extenuating circumstances, while still acknowledging that league results to date have been very poor.
This is my thinking. There's lots to consider while also acknowledging that Amorim should have done better in the league, we shouldn't be fecking 4th from bottom. We should be much higher than that.
Its standard extremes on here. I do not know how people cannot hold two things in their head at once:
It is absolutely fair to want Amorim to succeed, to like him, AND to believe he deserves a window and pre season - but at the exact same time it would be ridiculous to brush off those results, especially given that in the overwhelming majority we got the beating we deserved. The sensitivity towards raising any concern at all that maybe losing against almost everybody is a bad thing is crazy. There's a ridiculous post here saying that anybody who leans that way 'doesnt deserve to win the Europa' and 'wont enjoy it'. I've never seen such juvenile nonsense.
I think Amorim has it in him to be a good manager for us, and winning a trophy would be an enormous springboard and a monkey off his back before anybody even had a chance to point out that it's there, but it's either deliberate denial, or hypercharged optimism that leads anybody to think we shouldn't be further along this season than we are. Even if the results were the exact same but the performances were better there'd be less concern, but we've had our arses handed to us most weeks.
As poor as we are up top - and we undeniably are - we're not exactly playing with Dean Ashton out of retirement either. Hojlund showed some promise last season and Zirkzee is a good player - how did Bologna finish top 5 with him leading the line and being their top scorer with just 11 goals last season? Do we just pretend that there is absolutely no way at all to be a competitive side without a top striker? Of course there is. You wont win anything, and probably wouldnt even be top 6, but we're on course to finish 17th. Just a weak argument to avoid any sort of nuance.
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Because all they see is a higher xG when we lose, so it’s OK.
Its not well said though really, most of all because of the straw man argument that anybody is 'knee jerking' to the weekend's result. The thread is literally about a run of 16 games where we have beaten 1 team that has not been relegated. So that's issue one. Secondly is the ridiculous and self righteous assertion that anybody who is concerned about our abysmal league results - but especially the performances in getting those results - doesnt 'deserve' the club to win the Europa League. There used to be a phrase for that type of thing on here
"Players have refused to play any coached football for years". Can we stop throwing out baseless, toxic tropes like this. Which players are you specifically talking about? Most of our starting XI have only been here for two years max and have spent almost as much time under Amorim as EtH.
Come on now, don't let reality get in the way of moralising. Lets ignore that we came 3rd two seasons ago, winning a cup, and that while last season was very poor overall, we had plenty of good 'coached' results, namely the immaculately executed cup final win against city.
100% this, just a lazy easy criticism that knobs like Goldbridge propagate and fans regurgitate.
It's just getting tedious. I don't think Amorim is doing a great job but I want him to do well. He will start the season regardless next year and be backed in the transfer window so there's not much point getting worked up. I hope he does better next season. I'll also be ecstatic with a EL win considering everything.
However the pro Amorim crowd on here are at the stage of we can't criticise Amorim (or point out things haven't gone as expected) so bend all logic around that. It's not even a top red "support the team" type of energy or glass half full attitude, which I can understand but the same people are throwing incredible dogs abuse at all the players - Hojlund, Onana especially (or players "refusing to play coached football" - whatever ridiculous notion that is).
The improvements that people are looking for really don't stack up. Results didn't improve with more training time. Carragher and Henry have done analysis on sky of how deep our WBs are and the trouble we've had passing out (see also Bournemouth and Bilbao first half). We haven't won 2 games in a row under him, there's literally no run of form we've put together at all. The only silver lining has been the EL, and the prior 3 games we've had the benefit of 11 vs 10. In the PL we have been poor overall and regularly beaten by the meat and bones of the league like Brentford, Newcastle, Palace etc.
At a very basic level this is a team that did better last year (please don't argue that we outperformed xG despite apparently having strikers who can't finish or a goalkeeper that can't save). The bar for Amorim should be can he get better performances out of a team that an inexperienced Ruud van Nistelrooy playing a basic double pivot can. If his system is as good as we think it is then it should improve the players within it.
Could’ve been 0 in 16. Silver linings and all.
Agreed, I'd say it's actually all surprisingly reasonable. Very few are saying sack him now, everyone has concerns, I guess it seems like the rift will only form if we don't win the Europa.
Agree. Bad situation, bad league results, good European results. No one can argue this.
What is the priority this year for the club? How much is Champions League football worth? 80-100mm? Give or take.
Only way United makes the UCL is via winning Europa. I have a suspicion that Ratcliffe's priority this year when Amorin took over was to tell him Champions League qualification was the priority and top 4 was not looking likely with the squad that was put together. Clearly Europa >> League in SJR eyes, because Champions League qualification is worth so much to the club, and that money will help the rebuild.
7 wins, 2 draws, 0 losses in Europe. Garbage in the league. I'm fine with it, because I'd rather finish 16th in the league with a shot at the Europa league, vs finishing 9th with no shot at Europa. (Sure, in a perfect world they win Europa and finish with a better league position, but whatever.)
IDK, just a theory, but Ratcliffe cares about the bottom line and UCL qualification is so important. Surely RA was told that was the priority this year. Or maybe not-- IDK, we'll never know. Barring screwing it up vs Athletic-- the final is going to be massive for United.
Yes its amazing really. Im actually pro-Amorim, but even discussing the fact that we haven't won 2 games in a row and that we look so so poor is tantamount to calling for his sacking in some eyes. How have we possibly not won 2 bloody games in a row?! We got knocked out of the cup at home to Fulham, we went out of league cup in shambolic style. Amorim would be the first to admit it's gone absolutely disastrously so far.
There are examples of teams improving over the course of one summer, and I really hope that's the case. My expectations for next season would just to become a more stable team and compete for CL places. We need to consolidate ourselves as a CL places team first and foremost, before building towards a title challenging team. But honestly, given how we look 6 months in, it would be quite an impressive turnaround from him. This squad is nowhere near as bad as we are seeing. It's bad. But it's not 16th or 17th bad, and is actually stronger than last seasons squad.
I'd say it's more than a few who want him sacked now + there's those who say he should be sacked if he doesn't win the Europa
It's fair to have some criticisms put quite honestly it's hard to see many coaches doing much better with the forward options we've been depending on, we would be much higher in the table if we could score a fraction of the chances we do create
I see your point and it absolutely makes sense at this stage, but focusing on the Europa simply does not justify those results. If you stretch it back to his appointment, we've won 3 games in 20 against non relegated sides. Let's be real, the Europa has simply not been that big a factor in just how poor we look in the more demanding and more physical league. Just think about it, 3 in 20! Thats more than half a seasons worth of football, and weve beaten everton, fulham, and then city away. Those are our ONLY league wins that werent against the worst ever relegated PL sides.
Or more context - we have only beaten Everton at Old Trafford since Amorims appointment, if we exclude those woeful relegated teams. At the time, Everton were in the relegation zone I believe.
The Europa has been fantastic, and should we win it the Lyon game would go down as an all timer. But even in that short sample size we collapsed against Lyon twice, made incredibly tough work of a really poor Rangers, and have shown more than a few glimpses of the collapses that are killing us week in week out in the league. We've had some strong performances there too, and remain unbeaten - we'd be worthy winners of it and it should be celebrated. But it's not like we've just fielded youth for 5 months so we could focus on a cup competition.
Amorim is just playing 4d chess:
1) Win the Europe League to secure CL qualification and maximize available funds.
2) Tank us in the PL as badly as possible so it cranks the pressure on INEOS to actually invest properly on recruitment this summer.
If he’d have shown a massive improvement straight away INEOS would have cheaped out on new players summer. Instead our relegation form is perfect for loosening the purse strings.
1) Win the Europe League to secure CL qualification and maximize available funds.
2) Tank us in the PL as badly as possible so it cranks the pressure on INEOS to actually invest properly on recruitment this summer.
If he’d have shown a massive improvement straight away INEOS would have cheaped out on new players summer. Instead our relegation form is perfect for loosening the purse strings.
First, "no time to train", then "injuries", then "we have a worse first team than Wolves, Palace and Fulham", and now "our true love and masterplan was the EL all along".
That's my issue really. We should be able to have a rounded, nuanced discussion that accepts really poor progress with some mitigating factors, but we're at the point where our next excuse is 'we're shit, so how do you expect us to win?'.
2) is complete BS, the only way INEOS can do what you suggets is to breach the rules which makes us no better than certain other clubs we could mention
How long will you accept this form for ? Or will you be happy no matter what crap is served up for you?
Such cunning.
I think he suggest new season, clean slate
Surely that last part applies to all managers. I can’t be bothered to check but I’d bet if you went and just said Win or Loss based on xG for every PL we’d have still lost more than half.
Re if he doesn’t win Europa, whilst you might not agree, surely you’d see how it would be a fair opinion to hold of someone looked at the league form combined with Europa opposition and gave up on him?
If you think about it, being crap is the norm, United have 3 periods of being really good in their history which spans about a third of the time the club's been around, so for the majority of it we've been fairly crap
Amen.
Which is fine as do I but I don’t see why people can’t admit Amorim has been disappointing so far. He admits it himself.
There’s crap then there’s crap.
We won 6 games all season last year against the top 12. It's hardly new information that this team struggles against anyone half decent in the PL.
This is just the spectacular fall before the dramatic rise.
It's clear to see that we have a mixed set of players. Not enough goal scorers and too relaxed when giving away goals. Let's see what happens in the summer and then go from there. One top class goal scorer could literally make all the difference.
It's clear to see that we have a mixed set of players. Not enough goal scorers and too relaxed when giving away goals. Let's see what happens in the summer and then go from there. One top class goal scorer could literally make all the difference.
1) that post was a joke. I don’t actually think Amorim is deliberately tanking our PL form.
2) not really - the amount INEOS can spend
is governed by the FFP rules, but that doesn’t mean they will automatically spend the maximum amount allowed. I’m sure there could be circumstances in which INEOS might be tempted to spend less than the maximum allowed (eg if we had won every league game since Amorim’s arrival with Hojlund scoring twenty league goals in the process, they probably wouldn’t be prioritizing a striker this summer).
I'd disagree on anything based on xG - it's the most overrated and abused stat there is
In the context of the current manager I think it's a poor argument, he should either be sacked or retained irresepective of the Europa, I'm in the group that thinks he should get the summer window and pre-season, but if things don't start getting better early next season then I'd be looking for some action
I agree with this post.
We can say that the players are physically too weak, we don't have a good goalkeeper and we don't have a good striker; but the manager does nothing to help himself.
It is as clear as day that we can't play out from the back. I don't know the percentage but it felt like 2 out of every 3 times we tried to play out from the back yesterday, and in previous games, that we lost the ball about 25 -30 yards from our own goal line and gave the opposition a chance to attack.
We can't play out from the back, is a fact, and we cause most of our problems from this. So do something else. Go long.
Go long from goal kicks and keeper clearances.
Go long with free kicks.
Put any free kick that will reach into the box.
Put long throws into the box.
All these options give you a 50-50 chance of winning the ball, and if you lose it the opposition will be a lot further out than 25 yards from our goal.
The purists will say that this is 1970s Wimbledon football, and we won't improve playing like that. That's not the United way. We are building for the future, we won't achieve anything by going backwards.
I say If you have won 1 in 16 games you should have changed something a long time ago. Playing a different style may bring a better than 1 in 16 win. And is you get less panicked about losing you can slowly begin to change the way you play. Practice passing and keeping the ball in the opposition's half of the pitch, not panicking as you are trying to hit a triangle of passed in your own penalty box - which we are totally incapable of doing.
Not changing tactics is nonsense. You have to stop the rot, and then slowly transition to the system that you want as you change players and players get more confident or capable in what you are trying to do. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but that is what Amorim is insisting on doing, and failing to do.
It is as clear as day that we can't play out from the back. I don't know the percentage but it felt like 2 out of every 3 times we tried to play out from the back yesterday, and in previous games, that we lost the ball about 25 -30 yards from our own goal line and gave the opposition a chance to attack.
We can't play out from the back, is a fact, and we cause most of our problems from this. So do something else. Go long.
Go long from goal kicks and keeper clearances.
Go long with free kicks.
Put any free kick that will reach into the box.
Put long throws into the box.
All these options give you a 50-50 chance of winning the ball, and if you lose it the opposition will be a lot further out than 25 yards from our goal.
The purists will say that this is 1970s Wimbledon football, and we won't improve playing like that. That's not the United way. We are building for the future, we won't achieve anything by going backwards.
I say If you have won 1 in 16 games you should have changed something a long time ago. Playing a different style may bring a better than 1 in 16 win. And is you get less panicked about losing you can slowly begin to change the way you play. Practice passing and keeping the ball in the opposition's half of the pitch, not panicking as you are trying to hit a triangle of passed in your own penalty box - which we are totally incapable of doing.
Not changing tactics is nonsense. You have to stop the rot, and then slowly transition to the system that you want as you change players and players get more confident or capable in what you are trying to do. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but that is what Amorim is insisting on doing, and failing to do.
Show me any instance of someone denying that the league results haven’t been poor.
It would be the only real way to quantify your claim though, at least to some degree. We really don't create that much though, which is one of our big issues.
I think there's two parts to being a top manager, most only have one, there's the ability to coach whatever ideas they have into a team and there's simply knowing how to win. Trophies really do matter and I think if Amorim can win Europa, likely against a PL opposition about our level, at least it shows he has the latter part albeit it's not the CL. If his first season is averaging a point a game and he gets beaten by Spurs or, somehow, goes out to Bilbao, I won't blame anyone for giving up on him unless there's some extenuating situation because the sample size is chunky now.
You literally complained about the existence of this thread on the other page
Without any doubt at all we need
1)To win this Europa to get the huge champions league pot. 100m they say I believe?
2)Have an incredible transfer window.
If having brought in these mythical beasts who "suit" this system and we're still losing 1 in 2 in the league, we'll simply need to rip it up again and make a change again half way through the season.
Just hope we don't sacrifice all the wingers as we'll need them when moving back to a more standard system.
1)To win this Europa to get the huge champions league pot. 100m they say I believe?
2)Have an incredible transfer window.
If having brought in these mythical beasts who "suit" this system and we're still losing 1 in 2 in the league, we'll simply need to rip it up again and make a change again half way through the season.
Just hope we don't sacrifice all the wingers as we'll need them when moving back to a more standard system.
That we have been in PL play this season is an extreme understatement. But we have one foot back into CL qualification, which was our sole objective this season.
We were out of the running for top 4/5 in the PL by the time ETH was sacked. Mathematically we were still in it of course, but in reality we were roadkill when Ruben arrived. That the club prioritized the EL above the PL is obvious. We still hate to see clubs like Wolves and Brentford shellac us, but these were matches that just didn't matter any longer by the time we got to mid-January and top 4/5 was out of reach.
We were out of the running for top 4/5 in the PL by the time ETH was sacked. Mathematically we were still in it of course, but in reality we were roadkill when Ruben arrived. That the club prioritized the EL above the PL is obvious. We still hate to see clubs like Wolves and Brentford shellac us, but these were matches that just didn't matter any longer by the time we got to mid-January and top 4/5 was out of reach.