12 months since Mourinho was sacked and we've arguably gone backwards

UNITED ACADEMY

New Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
13,127
Supports
Erik ten Hag
Thing is I actually agree with the crux of the discussion, I am 100% in agreement that Solskjaer is better for United right now than Mourinho would be but I dunno why there has to be this mass scale delusion and rewriting of history to make emphasise that point.
Honestly, I don't even know what you are trying to argue here now. My point is that Ole has made progress in our squad, if you are in agreement with United under Ole is better than under Mourinho means sums up that he has made progress to our squad, I don't see what's your issue with me.

All I can see is that you are here just to argue for no reason. To even compare our squad when Mourinho was in charge with our squad under SAF when we signed RVP is such a delusional. Seriously, I don't see your point there? What about you answer yourself why SAF didn't sign players as caliber as RVP in 2004-2006 and instead he had faith in Rooney & Ronaldo, wanted to improve & develop them. You'll get it.
 

roonster09

FA Cup Predictions 2023/2024 winner
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
37,008
That's a lot of nonsense. Fred, first and foremost was never used by Ole until everyone else was injured. Per the summer reports the plan was to get a midfielder and get rid of Fred. Early on Pereira was getting look after look in front of him. Nothing long term or genius there. Dumb luck that Fred becoming used to the pace of the league coincides with 'the long term p*sstake' pronounced process.

Speaking of long term, we wanted to sign Mandzukic. Yeah. And that's before we even start on Gomes being gone, Mata and Jesse getting games instead. Everything you're saying is one sided delusion.
As AM, Fred is CM.

Wow 1 young player didnt get chance, so there is no long term strategy :lol:
 

UNITED ACADEMY

New Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
13,127
Supports
Erik ten Hag
That's a lot of nonsense. Fred, first and foremost was never used by Ole until everyone else was injured. Per the summer reports the plan was to get a midfielder and get rid of Fred. Early on Pereira was getting look after look in front of him. Nothing long term or genius there. Dumb luck that Fred becoming used to the pace of the league coincides with 'the long term p*sstake' pronounced process.

Speaking of long term, we wanted to sign Mandzukic. Yeah. And that's before we even start on Gomes being gone, Mata and Jesse getting games instead. Everything you're saying is one sided delusion.
How is telling fact called nonsense?

Mourinho spent 2 summer transfer windows to sign 2 CB, Pogba & Matic. In his 3rd summer windows he still wanted another new centre back & another new midfielder (signed Fred). That's fact, he spent the money on those certain position and still unhappy with what he got.

Ole on the other hand made improvement to his players which is Fred is not the only one who have improved. Others as well. So it's not just called "dumb luck" that Ole didn't sign attackers & midfield & has improved his players while Mourinho hasn't and when players didn't perform he prefer to sign new toys.

Well, aren't you the one is one sided delusional? Ole & the club never mentioned he wanted Mandzukic. Fact is that you are being deluded by transfer rumour.

Oh yes Gomes doesn't get game, let's also ignore Williams, Greenwood, Garner & how the manager also field a lot of teens against Astana. Oh guess what, you are the one who made the thread that critcised Ole "disrespectful and selfish" for playing youngsters especially playing Gomes over Mata. You have an agenda mate.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/disrespectful-and-selfish-updated-oops.452002/
 

MikeKing

Full Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2017
Messages
5,125
Supports
Bournemouth
There are positives,
Rashford is looking like very good player and a good goal scorer "Brainless, playing out of position, in the real world he is a striker.. championship level"
Greenwood is a first team player scoring 7 goals already "Too young, not ready to lead Manchester United to trebles and trophies, standards dropping"
James has started his ManUtd career well "relies on pace, what happens when he is older? Too weak, not the inside forward type who can score.. and he is a cheater"
McTominay looks much better player, has improved a lot since last December "Slow and big. Wont bring trophies so why play him? so weak on the ball Guardiola wouldn't play him as a defender"
Fred is looking like PL quality player and he is playing with so much confidence. "Really? Fred is a flop, but if not full credit goes to Mourinho for giving youth a chance"
AWB has been near unbeatable "Even Sagna was better on the ball, can't pass, can't dribble and have a shot reminiscent of Bebe. Terrible signing from the smug Ole.
Few young players like Wiliams, Garner have got decent games. "Again neither of them are going to get a chance when Ole fail so why even play them? They are not ready and will never carry us to glory right now"

There are obviously negatives too, "oh yeah I didn't really NOTICE?"
I don't get how people never get tired of being negative. I've seen enough comments on here to suggest these are the type of responds that may or may not we written in responds to your points. However I fully agree there is a lot of positives. We were on a downward trajectory with Mourinho. All his main signings flopped and he neglected our academy and young players. I like Mourinho to some degree but the facts is, he tried to do things quickly in two years and he failed. Now we try to not fail by giving better support to the manager and more time to carry out a vision that supports development in the long term. That is two different jobs, so you are correct there is "hypocrisy" right now but that is sort of the point. Positive change. If people refuse to believe this, I get why they don't get it, but stop being bitter about Mourinho. Don't let the negativity he brought carry on through the club, that is unnecessary let it go be positive and support Ole because he is one of our own. Then if it turns to shit you can be one of the dumb ones :smirk:
 

Listar

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
1,147
It’s not perfect, but bread title misleading. How far away were we from top 4 when Mourinho got sacked and how far away are we now?

I’m pretty sure the gap is closer now than Mourinho was sacked.
 

roonster09

FA Cup Predictions 2023/2024 winner
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
37,008
I don't get how people never get tired of being negative. I've seen enough comments on here to suggest these are the type of responds that may or may not we written in responds to your points. However I fully agree there is a lot of positives. We were on a downward trajectory with Mourinho. All his main signings flopped and he neglected our academy and young players. I like Mourinho to some degree but the facts is, he tried to do things quickly in two years and he failed. Now we try to not fail by giving better support to the manager and more time to carry out a vision that supports development in the long term. There is two different jobs, but that is sort of the point. If people refuse to believe this, I get why they don't get it, but stop being bitter about Mourinho. Don't let the negativity he brought carry on through the club, that is unnecessary let it go be positive and support Ole because he is one of our own. Then if it turns to shit you can be one of the dumb ones :smirk:
Biggest problem with many posters is, everything is binary. Black or white. If manager is getting results then everything he does is good, if the results are bad then people will come up with "there is no positives at all"
 

Sterling Archer

New Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
4,289
As AM, Fred is CM.

Wow 1 young player didnt get chance, so there is no long term strategy :lol:
Aside from not actually reading and comprehending, it's quite funny all this talk of long term strategy.

There's some mystical presentation that was given to Woodward that everyone is going off of yet no one has seen. Imagination running so wild caftards saying hiring based on a sales pitch over merit is sensible. It's fantastic stuff! Feck me, the presentation was probably a long term plan to build the Disneyland of Football :lol:
 

MikeKing

Full Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2017
Messages
5,125
Supports
Bournemouth
Biggest problem with many posters is, everything is binary. Black or white. If manager is getting results then everything he does is good, if the results are bad then people will come up with "there is no positives at all"
Yes. Reminds me of how Liverpool fans used to be. I just don't want to turn out bitter like those we used to just laugh at. I would like to get to the bottom of it, but it is as pointless as it is tiring.
 

roonster09

FA Cup Predictions 2023/2024 winner
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
37,008
Aside from not actually reading and comprehending, it's quite funny all this talk of long term strategy.

There's some mystical presentation that was given to Woodward that everyone is going off of yet no one has seen. Imagination running so wild caftards saying hiring based on a sales pitch over merit is sensible. It's fantastic stuff! Feck me, the presentation was probably a long term plan to build the Disneyland of Football :lol:
You don't even have to watch the presentation, you can just see what's happening on the pitch and how young the squad and starting 11 is to see that.

But hey, that might be too tough unless its mentioned in the wiki and you can copy from that.
 

The Boy

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Messages
4,504
Supports
Brighton and Hove Albion
The comparisons between where you were with Mou and where you are now, could not be starker.

Under Mou, you're squad was looking tired and disheartened, players were bought for instant success and if that didn't materialise they were quickly discarded to the bench or worse.

Under Ole, players are bought for experience and the future, the squad looks united but is developing. Under Ole you have to put aside your hopes of instant success and start looking a season or two down the road. I've posted before that it feels to me that something good is emerging at OT and I haven't seen much to change my mind. You're in a much much better place than this time last year.
 

Ludens the Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
17,565
Location
London
You are missing the point again and this is why I must repeat this again, the plan is rebuilding process. The reason why it's more ideal than short term plan is because our squad was and are miles behind City & Liverpool. We ain't catch City or Liverpool with Mourinho idea of going for short term, it will do nothing to catch them but damaging the club which clearly proven.

On the other hand under Sir Alex our aim was to win the league not rebuild the squad because we already had the squad that capable to win the league, that's why RVP was bought for the to improve the squad for winning the league back again from City! It's also hilarious to even use Chicharito & Welbeck to back your argument, they are nowhere near as talented as Rashford & Martial.
I'm not missing any point because there isn't any. There is no one strict way of doing things, there are many ways to rebuild a team. You dont have to completely ignore experienced players to rebuild a team, you can do both.
Anyway here's a list of players and ages we signed under Mourinho
Baily 22
Zlatan 34
Mkhi 27
Pogba 23
Lindelof 23
Lukaku 24
Matic 28
Sanchez 29
Dalot 20
Fred 24
Grant 35

Okay so this is where the 'agenda' I speak about comes into play. So I make that 7 players out of 10 signed under Mourinho who were 27 and under (I'm not counting Grant), 6 were 24 and under. So please elaborate how this is 'short term fixes' and how Mourinho was too focused on old players. What this actually is is a mix, the kind of mix of signings you're supposed to make as a club. If we are to progress we need some experience in there and not of the poor quality of the likes of Mata and Young. The best thing this club could go out and do right now is sign an experienced midfielder and experienced attacker.

You cant suggest its hilarious to mention Chicharito and Welbeck when you keep mentioning a player as rubbish as Andreas Perreira.


Me? It's you who can't see what happened? We tried the Mourinho way and it didn't work, and you expect us to keep doing the Mourinho way. Now both the club and Ole are trying something different which is rebuild the squad for long term project by improving & developing players into top class players. Will we win the league in 3 years or more with this plan? Who knows but the club & manager are trying something different and so far there are sign of progress & improvement in the squad.



Why are you ignoring what happened to those players that Jose signed?

Jose signed Bailly & Lindelof and yet he still not happy with them and still wanted more centre back. He had three summer transfer window and what he did is instead of trying to use the money to fix the defense, he was ignoring the talent that we got up front like Rashford & Martial and wasted the money on the likes Lukaku, Sanchez, Zlatan and etc. Do you see why I called it as waste of money?

Let's not ignore that Fred was considered flop under Jose's management, there is a possibility if Mourinho would have stayed this summer, he would want a new midfielder just like how he wanted a new centre back after signed two in previous windows.
You keep mentioning Zlatan but he was a massive success here, and Ill be the first to admit I thought at the time he wasnt a good signing. He was a free transfer, where's this transfer fee that was wasted? Are you actually suggesting we should have began the 2016/2017 season with 18 year old Marcus Rashford and 21 year old Anthony Martial as our only striking options? Are you actually suggesting this is what Mourinho should have done? Experienced players can also help younger players, its why Fergie kept Scholes, Giggs, Neville etc around for so long. Everyone knows how well respected Zlatan was when he was here, it's actually quite staggering that you're mentioning him in a negative light. The guy helped us win two trophies.
Again, this obsession with Martial and Rashford, are you aware a squad needs more than two forwards? Lukaku was 24 and one of the highest scoring players in the PL at the time of signing him, and as I said with Sanchez, he was a chance signing that was worth the gamble at the time. Stop acting as if these were clearly bad signings to make.

Also I wasn't aware there was a maximum number of players you could sign for two positions in your team..... Essentially you're criticising Mourinho for trying to sign a single centre back in each of his three seasons here. Again this is where the agenda is clear.
It doesn't really matter that these players were flops, I mean according to your principles. You keep slagging off Zlatan for the short sighted nature of his signing yet completely ignore the fact he was a huge success and then you're turning around criticising the young players Mourinho signed as flops even if it is proof that by at least signing these players there was a long term plan. Again, it's agenda driven.


Tell me what's my agenda? All I'm doing is that trying to tell you that there is sign of progress in the squad but your agenda blind your eyes that you can't see the progress that we have and ignoring them.

Let's not ignore that neither Jones & Mata are even starting XI players. I don't know how many times until this get through your head but I shall say it again, it'll take time. We can't fix everything in one summer transfer window and that's why those two are still in the club.
You have an agenda against Mourinho.....

When did I say everything needed to be fixed now? Not once, but I'm sorry there was absolutely no reason to give Jones and Mata new contracts. We're not short of centre backs and we should have brought in a midfielder instead of giving Mata a new deal.

Honestly, I don't even know what you are trying to argue here now. My point is that Ole has made progress in our squad, if you are in agreement with United under Ole is better than under Mourinho means sums up that he has made progress to our squad, I don't see what's your issue with me.

All I can see is that you are here just to argue for no reason. To even compare our squad when Mourinho was in charge with our squad under SAF when we signed RVP is such a delusional. Seriously, I don't see your point there? What about you answer yourself why SAF didn't sign players as caliber as RVP in 2004-2006 and instead he had faith in Rooney & Ronaldo, wanted to improve & develop them. You'll get it.
My issue is that you're re creating history and re creating the present to fit a narrative of Ole being so much better than Mourinho. Yes I agree with the crux, Ole is a better fit at the moment because the club needs calmness, it needs someone who wont lose his head or lose the players but all the other stuff is just nonsense to be honest. This idea that Mourinho was after old players, ignoring youngsters, destroying the club etc and that all of a sudden under Ole all the youngsters are blossoming, there's great leadership and there's no need to add any experience etc, it's all just nonsense. Why can't there be a middle ground, why does it always have to get so silly?

The comparisons between where you were with Mou and where you are now, could not be starker.

Under Mou, you're squad was looking tired and disheartened, players were bought for instant success and if that didn't materialise they were quickly discarded to the bench or worse.

Under Ole, players are bought for experience and the future, the squad looks united but is developing. Under Ole you have to put aside your hopes of instant success and start looking a season or two down the road. I've posted before that it feels to me that something good is emerging at OT and I haven't seen much to change my mind. You're in a much much better place than this time last year.
No disrespect but you dont really know what youre talking about.
 
Last edited:

Sterling Archer

New Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
4,289
How is telling fact called nonsense?

Mourinho spent 2 summer transfer windows to sign 2 CB, Pogba & Matic. In his 3rd summer windows he still wanted another new centre back & another new midfielder (signed Fred). That's fact, he spent the money on those certain position and still unhappy with what he got.

Ole on the other hand made improvement to his players which is Fred is not the only one who have improved. Others as well. So it's not just called "dumb luck" that Ole didn't sign attackers & midfield & has improved his players while Mourinho hasn't and when players didn't perform he prefer to sign new toys.

Well, aren't you the one is one sided delusional? Ole & the club never mentioned he wanted Mandzukic. Fact is that you are being deluded by transfer rumour.

Oh yes Gomes doesn't get game, let's also ignore Williams, Greenwood, Garner & how the manager also field a lot of teens against Astana. Oh guess what, you are the one who made the thread that critcised Ole "disrespectful and selfish" for playing youngsters especially playing Gomes over Mata. You have an agenda mate.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/disrespectful-and-selfish-updated-oops.452002/
I have an opinion. Your calling it an agenda is the kind of divisive language and propaganda this place is rife with.

That thread right there, where I've changed my post? I did it because I was mistaken. We didn't take an entire youth team to Astana. That was mostly our first team squad. And we lost. To Astana with a mostly first team squad that was deemed worthy of upholding Manchester Uniteds name in competition by the manager. So it wasn't a case of showing the competition disrespect. It was a case of our rather silly and inadequate squad management.

So what's my opinion? Is that Ole cant become better given the time and resources? No.

But it is that we shouldn't make excuses left and right for absolute dogsh*te. You want Ole here? You ok to see him get us midtable in the hope of improvement. Ok. That's fine and I have the decency to not label that stupid or an agenda. But I'll tell you what, if you feel that way don't pretend that's what Manchester United fandom is about. And don't think that's what's best for the club.

No player is above the good of the club. That includes former players.
 

The Boy

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Messages
4,504
Supports
Brighton and Hove Albion
I'm not missing any point because there isn't any. There is no one strict way of doing things, there are many ways to rebuild a team. You dont have to completely ignore experienced players to rebuild a team, you can do both.
Anyway here's a list of players and ages we signed under Mourinho
Baily 22
Zlatan 34
Mkhi 27
Pogba 23
Lindelof 23
Lukaku 24
Matic 28
Sanchez 29
Dalot 20
Fred 24
Grant 35

Okay so this is where the 'agenda' I speak about comes into play. So I make that 7 players out of 10 signed under Mourinho who were 27 and under (I'm not counting Grant), 6 were 24 and under. So please elaborate how this is 'short term fixes' and how Mourinho was too focused on old players. What this actually is is a mix, the kind of mix of signings you're supposed to make as a club. If we are to progress we need some experience in there and not of the poor quality of the likes of Mata and Young. The best thing this club could go out and do right now is sign an experienced midfielder and experienced attacker.

You cant suggest its hilarious to mention Chicharito and Welbeck when you keep mentioning a player as rubbish as Andreas Perreira.




You keep mentioning Zlatan but he was a massive success here, and Ill be the first to admit I thought at the time he wasnt a good signing. He was a free transfer, where's this transfer fee that was wasted? Are you actually suggesting we should have began the 2016/2017 season with 18 year old Marcus Rashford and 21 year old Anthony Martial as our only striking options? Are you actually suggesting this is what Mourinho should have done? Experienced players can also help younger players, its why Fergie kept Scholes, Giggs, Neville etc around for so long. Everyone knows how well respected Zlatan was when he was here, it's actually quite staggering that you're mentioning him in a negative light. The guy helped us win two trophies.
Again, this obsession with Martial and Rashford, are you aware a squad needs more than two forwards? Lukaku was 24 and one of the highest scoring players in the PL at the time of signing him, and as I said with Sanchez, he was a chance signing that was worth the gamble at the time. Stop acting as if these were clearly bad signings to make.

Also I wasn't aware there was a maximum number of players you could sign for two positions in your team..... Essentially you're criticising Mourinho for trying to sign a single centre back in each of his three seasons here. Again this is where the agenda is clear.
It doesn't really matter that these players were flops, I mean according to your principles. You keep slagging off Zlatan for the short sighted nature of his signing yet completely ignore the fact he was a huge success and then you're turning around criticising the young players Mourinho signed as flops even if it is proof that by at least signing these players there was a long term plan. Again, it's agenda driven.




You have an agenda against Mourinho.....

When did I say everything needed to be fixed now? Not once, but I'm sorry there was absolutely no reason to give Jones and Mata new contracts. We're not short of centre backs and we should have brought in a midfielder instead of giving Mata a new deal.



My issue is that you're re creating history and re creating the present to fit a narrative of Ole being so much better than Mourinho. Yes I agree with the crux, Ole is a better fit at the moment because the club needs calmness, it needs someone who wont lose his head or lose the players but all the other stuff is just nonsense to be honest. This idea that Mourinho was after old players, ignoring youngsters, destroying the club etc and that all of a sudden under Ole all the youngsters are blossoming, there's great leadership and there's no need to add any experience etc, it's all just nonsense. Why can't there be a middle ground, why does it always have to get so silly?



No disrespect but you dont really know what youre talking about.
Of course you know better, but I would suggest that Mourinho's method of management is one of aiming for instant success instead of long term team building, that's been the case at pretty much every club he's managed and he's very very good at it, hence all his trophies and the reason why he doesnt tend to stay for very long anywhere. He also has a reputation for leaving squads that need to be rebuilt. But what do I know?
 

Sterling Archer

New Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Messages
4,289
You don't even have to watch the presentation, you can just see what's happening on the pitch and how young the squad and starting 11 is to see that.
Playing youngsters in and of itself isn't enough in my books. And that's what a lot of the critical posters are trying to argue - we want more than just a young squad. That's not the only thing that defines United. For me, the style of football itself is really not right.
But hey, that might be too tough unless its mentioned in the wiki and you can copy from that.
this brought a smile to my face :)
The other poster did the same thing, trying to use another thread as some sort of 'gotcha' moment . You think I'm shy about my opinions? I'm quite proud to be mistaken, because what better way to learn!

I have to ask - is everything okay with you, mate? You're straight into petty territory. If you really are so loathe to my opinions, perhaps consider the ignore function. If it makes you feel better to flex your muscles and show me who's boss then i guess that's ok. I can take it. I hope it brings you some peace to put me in my place. Much love from me to you.
 

Ludens the Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
17,565
Location
London
Of course you know better, but I would suggest that Mourinho's method of management is one of aiming for instant success instead of long term team building, that's been the case at pretty much every club he's managed and he's very very good at it, hence all his trophies and the reason why he doesnt tend to stay for very long anywhere. He also has a reputation for leaving squads that need to be rebuilt. But what do I know?
All I know is when he was manager here he tried to blend youth and experience and he tried to sign players for the future who fit into his style as shown in my last post. It went wrong where it unfortunately always goes wrong for Mourinho, he gets frustrated quickly when results take a nose dive then starts upsetting everyone, then sabotages the team. I said this earlier but the current life span of a manager is 3-5 years. Name me these modern day managers who are spending longer than that period at any club....I'll wait.
Leaving squads that need to be rebuilt? Honestly do people never get tired of making rubbish up about Mourinho? Chelsea were so bad under Mourinho the first time round he left that the exact same players got to the CL final and finished 2nd under Avram Grant, then won a double two seasons later. But yeah huge rebuild was needed.
Mourinho left Real Madrid in such a state that with basically the exact same players they won the CL the following season and then another 3 out of 4, again though, a huge rebuild was needed. Let's also not forget the shambles he left at Chelsea a few seasons ago, the team was so bad when he left and required such a rebuild that they immediately won the league the next season with a record amount of wins with again basically the exact same team. There's so many valid criticisms you can make of Mourinho as a manager why do people always feel the need to peddle myths regardless of whats in front of them?

What sums it up is Gary Neville who within a few months of Mourinho leaving and Solskjaers reign beginning immediately declared that United were a lot better than they were showing under Jose and that they were only 1 or 2 players short of competing for a title. Fast forward four months later the same Gary Neville was proclaiming United needed 5 or 6 world class players to compete for a title. Look I get it, Mourinho is the villain, the one everyone loves to hate but for feck sake the constant bullshit that people constantly peddle to downplay his achievements and abilities are tiresome. Just leave the guy alone.
 

redcafe_reader

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 17, 2018
Messages
330
The comparisons between where you were with Mou and where you are now, could not be starker.

Under Mou, you're squad was looking tired and disheartened, players were bought for instant success and if that didn't materialise they were quickly discarded to the bench or worse.
I don't really agree with that. It's true that Mourinho made things toxic so people tend to look at us negatively, but we have a lot of comeback win (maybe the most among all manager pos SAF, but I don't have the number right now), quite many of Fergie time goals too, it's not something a tired and disheartened squad can do.

For your second point, improving player skill is not Mourinho's strong point, so it's true that he tends to look for new players since it's his style and has been for a very long time (and brings him lot of success). However, Lindelof did improve massively in his second season here, even though he was only used because Mourinho can't get Maguire.

Under Ole, players are bought for experience and the future, the squad looks united but is developing. Under Ole you have to put aside your hopes of instant success and start looking a season or two down the road. I've posted before that it feels to me that something good is emerging at OT and I haven't seen much to change my mind. You're in a much much better place than this time last year.
At the moment that's fine, as I have seen enough good things for me to continue supporting Ole (never change my opinion from Ole in even during our worst run). But Mourinho's "instant success" is Europa Champion and top 2, so surely the long term success of Ole needs to be better, and that's not an easy thing to do.

On topic, as Ole is building the team for long term success, it's very hard to argue at the moment if we were actually gone backward or not, since the result may lie in the next several years. However, the improvement regarding result and playstyle need to be seen next year.
 

roonster09

FA Cup Predictions 2023/2024 winner
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
37,008
Playing youngsters in and of itself isn't enough in my books. And that's what a lot of the critical posters are trying to argue - we want more than just a young squad. That's not the only thing that defines United. For me, the style of football itself is really not right.
Wonder why did you use game time for young player as long term plan then?

Speaking of long term, we wanted to sign Mandzukic. Yeah. And that's before we even start on Gomes being gone, Mata and Jesse getting games instead. Everything you're saying is one sided delusion

Of course we need more than just young squad, we need results too. But that doesn't mean there isn't a long term plan. Whether Ole can execute it well or whether it will be a success, we will only know in the future.

Just going by this summer, we have reduced the age of first 11 and squad, we field one of the youngest team consistently.
We have replaced,
Young with AWB
Smalling with Maguire
Matic with McTominay
Mata with James
Lukaku with Martial
Rashford/Martial/Sanchez with Rashford.

This is just from starting 11. We have created squad position for Greenwood, who has already scored 7 goals. Players like Garner, Williams, Chong, Tuanzebe got mins, especially in Europa league.

At the moment, Ole is not good enough as his results are not good enough, that doesn't mean there isn't a long term planning.

For a guy who really is concerned about style, you have weird fetish on Jose.


this brought a smile to my face :)
The other poster did the same thing, trying to use another thread as some sort of 'gotcha' moment . You think I'm shy about my opinions? I'm quite proud to be mistaken, because what better way to learn!

I have to ask - is everything okay with you, mate? You're straight into petty territory. If you really are so loathe to my opinions, perhaps consider the ignore function. If it makes you feel better to flex your muscles and show me who's boss then i guess that's ok. I can take it. I hope it brings you some peace to put me in my place. Much love from me to you.
Now are we starting to play the victim card now?
 

The Boy

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2014
Messages
4,504
Supports
Brighton and Hove Albion
Look I get it, Mourinho is the villain, the one everyone loves to hate but for feck sake the constant bullshit that people constantly peddle to downplay his achievements and abilities are tiresome. Just leave the guy alone.
I don't think you understood my posts, I'm not a Jose hater or lover, I couldn't really care less about him. The OP asks if you are worse off now than a year ago. I was saying the difference is huge. Jose sets up for short term instant success, Ole is looking far more long term. In my mind that means you're not worse off than you were a year ago, just in a very different place.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

New Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
13,127
Supports
Erik ten Hag
I'm not missing any point because there isn't any. There is no one strict way of doing things, there are many ways to rebuild a team. You dont have to completely ignore experienced players to rebuild a team, you can do both.
Anyway here's a list of players and ages we signed under Mourinho
Baily 22
Zlatan 34
Mkhi 27
Pogba 23
Lindelof 23
Lukaku 24
Matic 28
Sanchez 29
Dalot 20
Fred 24
Grant 35

Okay so this is where the 'agenda' I speak about comes into play. So I make that 7 players out of 10 signed under Mourinho who were 27 and under (I'm not counting Grant), 6 were 24 and under. So please elaborate how this is 'short term fixes' and how Mourinho was too focused on old players. What this actually is is a mix, the kind of mix of signings you're supposed to make as a club. If we are to progress we need some experience in there and not of the poor quality of the likes of Mata and Young. The best thing this club could go out and do right now is sign an experienced midfielder and experienced attacker.

You cant suggest its hilarious to mention Chicharito and Welbeck when you keep mentioning a player as rubbish as Andreas Perreira.




You keep mentioning Zlatan but he was a massive success here, and Ill be the first to admit I thought at the time he wasnt a good signing. He was a free transfer, where's this transfer fee that was wasted? Are you actually suggesting we should have began the 2016/2017 season with 18 year old Marcus Rashford and 21 year old Anthony Martial as our only striking options? Are you actually suggesting this is what Mourinho should have done? Experienced players can also help younger players, its why Fergie kept Scholes, Giggs, Neville etc around for so long. Everyone knows how well respected Zlatan was when he was here, it's actually quite staggering that you're mentioning him in a negative light. The guy helped us win two trophies.
Again, this obsession with Martial and Rashford, are you aware a squad needs more than two forwards? Lukaku was 24 and one of the highest scoring players in the PL at the time of signing him, and as I said with Sanchez, he was a chance signing that was worth the gamble at the time. Stop acting as if these were clearly bad signings to make.

Also I wasn't aware there was a maximum number of players you could sign for two positions in your team..... Essentially you're criticising Mourinho for trying to sign a single centre back in each of his three seasons here. Again this is where the agenda is clear.
It doesn't really matter that these players were flops, I mean according to your principles. You keep slagging off Zlatan for the short sighted nature of his signing yet completely ignore the fact he was a huge success and then you're turning around criticising the young players Mourinho signed as flops even if it is proof that by at least signing these players there was a long term plan. Again, it's agenda driven.




You have an agenda against Mourinho.....

When did I say everything needed to be fixed now? Not once, but I'm sorry there was absolutely no reason to give Jones and Mata new contracts. We're not short of centre backs and we should have brought in a midfielder instead of giving Mata a new deal.



My issue is that you're re creating history and re creating the present to fit a narrative of Ole being so much better than Mourinho. Yes I agree with the crux, Ole is a better fit at the moment because the club needs calmness, it needs someone who wont lose his head or lose the players but all the other stuff is just nonsense to be honest. This idea that Mourinho was after old players, ignoring youngsters, destroying the club etc and that all of a sudden under Ole all the youngsters are blossoming, there's great leadership and there's no need to add any experience etc, it's all just nonsense. Why can't there be a middle ground, why does it always have to get so silly?



No disrespect but you dont really know what youre talking about.
No disrespect but you are completely being stubborn here. I have just stated my point and yet you refuse to listen to it by saying there is "not any point". In addition, now you are starting talking some nonsense that I never mentioned.

When did I ever say we need to ignore the experienced players in order to rebuild the team? You are just making it up because you refuse to listen to any of my points. All I said is that Jose ignored our young talented players by signing ageing & proven players to play over them which now proven to be waste of money & time. We could have spend the money wisely by fixing the defense first and develop our attackers such as Rashford & Martial 2-3 years ago when Mourinho took in charge.

A similar example is Rooney & Ronaldo in 2003-2006, we didn't win league titles for three season with them, this didn't stop Sir Alex to sign proven & ageing players to take over their spot, instead he had faith in them & chose to develop them.

Players like Scholes, Giggs & Neville were not in the way of Rooney & Ronaldo's development, they cost nothing but free & had been with the club for very long time to be good set of example for young players. You can't compare it with how Jose chose to spend big on fees or wages on the likes of Zlatan, Lukaku, Sanchez or even aim on Perisic so they can take over Rahsford & Martial spot, in addition he wasted 40m for player who can only perform for 1 season or 6 months like Matic and now considered as deadwood. What a completely joke of comparison.

If only you listen/read my post instead of ignoring them, you would have realised that I never say we shouldn't add experience players in our squad.
 

marukomu

The Gatekeeper
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
20,649
Location
gusset
We have had a chance to see what some of the youngsters can do which we wouldn't have been able to do without getting rid of some of the shite. This is a complete re-building so no point buying loads of players when we might potentially have them already. We bought well in the summer and have been unlucky losing Pogba and Martial for long periods. We could do with a couple of signings in January but overall I am felling better than for a few years. I hate to think where we would be now if Mourinho were still here.
 

TRUERED89

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 23, 2019
Messages
2,366
Location
England
It’s not perfect, but bread title misleading. How far away were we from top 4 when Mourinho got sacked and how far away are we now?

I’m pretty sure the gap is closer now than Mourinho was sacked.
11 points
 

Woodzy

Full Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2004
Messages
14,888
Location
Cardiff
Ole is doing a lot of the things we have been desperate for as fans - think of the players who have left or can barely get in the team now and most fall in line with the ones we have been moaning about for years.

He's struggling with results, which is a huge concern, but as far as what he's doing for our club is infinitely better then Mourinho.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

New Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
13,127
Supports
Erik ten Hag
I have an opinion. Your calling it an agenda is the kind of divisive language and propaganda this place is rife with.

That thread right there, where I've changed my post? I did it because I was mistaken. We didn't take an entire youth team to Astana. That was mostly our first team squad. And we lost. To Astana with a mostly first team squad that was deemed worthy of upholding Manchester Uniteds name in competition by the manager. So it wasn't a case of showing the competition disrespect. It was a case of our rather silly and inadequate squad management.

So what's my opinion? Is that Ole cant become better given the time and resources? No.

But it is that we shouldn't make excuses left and right for absolute dogsh*te. You want Ole here? You ok to see him get us midtable in the hope of improvement. Ok. That's fine and I have the decency to not label that stupid or an agenda. But I'll tell you what, if you feel that way don't pretend that's what Manchester United fandom is about. And don't think that's what's best for the club.

No player is above the good of the club. That includes former players.
What if these post of yours you made on this thread are also mistaken just like the thread you created? I have an opinion you called it delusional, and when I pointed out your opinion, they are what I called mix of delusional & agenda. I mean seriously I don't even know whether you are being serious or just troll

Why I said that? Let me point them out:

You mocked "the long term" plan by mentioning Mata/Lingard played over Gomes. But that's your agenda because clearly it's only one player. When the manager chose to have faith in the likes of Greenwood instead of signing Lukaku's or Sanchez replacement, chose to play players like Williams, Garner and the others you are completely ignore it. The most obvious part is you even created such a ridiculous thread slating the manager for playing young players such as Gomes over Mata. What do you call that if it's not agenda?

You spoke about Mandzukic but there is no concrete proof that we even wanted to sign him, it was just rumour. What do you call that if it's not delusional?

My opinion is that our squad are far behind City & Liverpool, we have no money as much as City, PSG or Real where we can spend crazy to transform the squad in short period of time, we tried Mourinho way and clearly didn't work. What the club & the manager right now is trying to change the way which is rebuild the squad by focusing on developing players, improve players & slowly integrate leadership into the squad and it'll take time.

Will the plan work? Who knows, I can't predict the future. Can Ole win us the league? Who knows, I can't predict the future. But what we need right now is a man who can rebuild our squad which to me Ole is the right man for it. Why? Because so far there are progress in our squad with the way how he has improved our players & slowly integrate leadership into our squad.

Tell me what is delusional from that!!??
 

pacifictheme

Full Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Messages
7,821
Our squad is going in the right direction. In terms of performances i'm not sure we're that far away from where we were. Jose was trying to get the sack at the end after not being backed. Jury is still out on ole.
 

Matt007a

Full Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Messages
766
I thought the general consensus was that we needed to take one step back before going forwards? Apart from a few core players, the squad needed a massive refresh and clearout.

Results wise we've not progressed since last year no, but I think if you look at the bigger picture we have. We lack quality but not desire, which couldn't be said last year when we had too many half interested players. Once we've had the next two windows to fill in more of the gaps, especially in midfield I think then is the time to decide if progress has been made. The task was too big to be done in 12 months.
 

Focusmate

Full Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
364
Supports
Non League
In the end football is about results. We are worse now than in Mourinhos last season which is truly dire, given his meltdown that summer.
we are a mile away from the level of Mourinhos first 2 seasons.
The football isnt really any better either.
Main plus point is that there is more positivity than in Mourinhos last season. Most fans love Ole and didnt like Mourinho so 5th or 6th with Ole is seen as better than 2nd with Mourinho.
The rebuilding stuff is mostly delusion. Most managers last 2/3 years these days so the idea any manager gets 2/3 years to rebuild is crazy.
Just to mention that my non United supporting mates were to a man very happy to see us beat City and Spurs. Because It keeps Ole in a job much longer.
 
Joined
Jan 28, 2017
Messages
221
We definitely have not gone backwards.

We have been playing young players due to injuries of 1st team players; this results in inconsistencies. That said the likes of Greenwood is getting experience and developing nicely.

Pogba has been out for ages, if he did not have this injury I think we would be around 4th place, surly we would have more points had he not been missing so long...

A lot of deadwood gone and a very young squad developing; I see that as moving forward from last season.

We need a midfielder, centre forward and right winger... and this squad would be pretty much a lot stronger... give it time, we have not gone backwards.
 

The_Order

Full Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
1,908
We have a manager who actually has the club's best intention at heart instead of his own ego and status. Thats a start, I am not convinced of Ole's abilities, but after this summer's failure to be backed especially after so many outgoings, I am willing to give him the required windows to make it work.

He has a much weaker team than Jose and has had to do without his best players most of the time due to injuries. Thus far he's been working with a very thin squad ravaged by injuries to its key players.

Still, he's doing relatively ok, for all his averageness, he knows how to beat stronger opposition. Most of the losses and draws have been by fine margins, something that added quality in the right places will solve.

Or you can go back to Jose who's only interested in signing 30 year olds. Remember he wanted rid of Martial to bring in Perisic.
 

Keefy18

Full Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,653
Sacking Mourinho was a knee-jerk reaction. He led us through our best post-Fergie season, by a country mile. I didn't like him very much and don't appreciate his controversial personality, but I think we could have lived with that better than we can live with a manager whose fundamental competency is a matter of debate. The whole "building a foundation" thing is severely overrated--far too small a percentage of promising youth players turn out to be the real deal, and clubs almost never succeed that way. The stars can align (our class of 92, Barcelona's Messi generation), but by and large, success is achieved and maintained by signing a steady stream of quality players. Mourinho was a much better candidate in that regard than Ole will ever be.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

This legitimately gave me a bloody good laugh this morning.

Oh boy! Thanks Dansk.
 

Focusmate

Full Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2018
Messages
364
Supports
Non League
Thing is virtually no one is saying Jose should still be manager. He had to go when he did.
It doesnt matter if Jose only wanted to buy 60 year olds etc which wasnt even true but anyway the point is whether we have progressed in 12 months since he was rightfully sacked.
If you compare to Jose’s worst/meltdown season and ignore the first 2, then in some areas we have got better and some, including results, are worse.
Is that good enough? Really?
The team isnt worse, we have a much better defence but lost a lot of squad depth in midfield and attack. Greenwood looks class and Fred has started adapting to the prem league. He obviously needed time.
What are our objectives?
We have lowered standards so much since Ole came in, I can see a 3 year rebuild to get to where we were in Mourinhos 2nd season. Maybe a 2nd place and a cup final etc,
 

Bilbo

TeaBaggins
Joined
Sep 27, 2004
Messages
14,438
The comparisons between where you were with Mou and where you are now, could not be starker.

Under Mou, you're squad was looking tired and disheartened, players were bought for instant success and if that didn't materialise they were quickly discarded to the bench or worse.

Under Ole, players are bought for experience and the future, the squad looks united but is developing. Under Ole you have to put aside your hopes of instant success and start looking a season or two down the road. I've posted before that it feels to me that something good is emerging at OT and I haven't seen much to change my mind. You're in a much much better place than this time last year.
Its really depressing that this is so clear to an opposition fan but so many of our own can't see it.
 

Ludens the Red

Full Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2009
Messages
17,565
Location
London
No disrespect but you are completely being stubborn here. I have just stated my point and yet you refuse to listen to it by saying there is "not any point". In addition, now you are starting talking some nonsense that I never mentioned.

When did I ever say we need to ignore the experienced players in order to rebuild the team? You are just making it up because you refuse to listen to any of my points. All I said is that Jose ignored our young talented players by signing ageing & proven players to play over them which now proven to be waste of money & time. We could have spend the money wisely by fixing the defense first and develop our attackers such as Rashford & Martial 2-3 years ago when Mourinho took in charge.

A similar example is Rooney & Ronaldo in 2003-2006, we didn't win league titles for three season with them, this didn't stop Sir Alex to sign proven & ageing players to take over their spot, instead he had faith in them & chose to develop them.

Players like Scholes, Giggs & Neville were not in the way of Rooney & Ronaldo's development, they cost nothing but free & had been with the club for very long time to be good set of example for young players. You can't compare it with how Jose chose to spend big on fees or wages on the likes of Zlatan, Lukaku, Sanchez or even aim on Perisic so they can take over Rahsford & Martial spot, in addition he wasted 40m for player who can only perform for 1 season or 6 months like Matic and now considered as deadwood. What a completely joke of comparison.

If only you listen/read my post instead of ignoring them, you would have realised that I never say we shouldn't add experience players in our squad.
I addressed most of your post, in bits, broke it down, quoted it section for section and explained why I felt you’re wrong . But Yet here we go again you’re just repeating the same stuff again and again.
I literally posted Mourinhos signings and the fact the ages of the players signed were mostly young yet you come back with the same mentioning of Zlatan and Sanchez completely ignoring the rest. And why do you keep mentioning Perisic we didn’t sign him. I mean seriously.

Im gonna ask one final question and please try and answer it, don’t dodge it, don’t deflect.
Should we have started the 2016/2017 season with 18 year old Marcus Rashford and 21 year old Antony Martial as our only attacking options?
 

UNITED ACADEMY

New Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
13,127
Supports
Erik ten Hag
I addressed most of your post, in bits, broke it down, quoted it section for section and explained why I felt you’re wrong . But Yet here we go again you’re just repeating the same stuff again and again.
I literally posted Mourinhos signings and the fact the ages of the players signed were mostly young yet you come back with the same mentioning of Zlatan and Sanchez completely ignoring the rest. And why do you keep mentioning Perisic we didn’t sign him. I mean seriously.

Im gonna ask one final question and please try and answer it, don’t dodge it, don’t deflect.
Should we have started the 2016/2017 season with 18 year old Marcus Rashford and 21 year old Antony Martial as our only attacking options?
What's completely wrong about me? Tell me what? I never say that we need to ignore the experienced players in order to rebuild the team, you just made things up that I never actually mention. In fact we signed Maguire is also part of that we need an experience player.

Once again you are completely ignoring the point. The point is that Jose Mouriho's aim was for a short term and what he did was waste of money which didn't work out at all at the end which is proven, why are you trying to argue with something that had happened? It's fact, we wasted our money & it didn't work out.

What about you now answer my questions!

Do you think it was a waste of money to spend 40m on Matic?

Having Zlatan in 16/17 makes sense. But what's the point of signing him back again in 17/18?

Wasted massive money on Lukaku, Sanchez & even aim Perisic is a sign that he had no interest in having faith in young players that the team had at that time like Rashford & Martial, don't you agree? The fact that you got no clue why I mentioned Perisic is because you ignore my point that Jose's aim was for a short term & if he sign Perisic that would cost us 55m.
 
Last edited:

RedIan

Full Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2015
Messages
3,182
Location
Manchester
:lol: :lol: :lol:

This legitimately gave me a bloody good laugh this morning.

Oh boy! Thanks Dansk.
Knee jerk reaction? Are you joking, he had brought a very black cloud of depression over the whole of Manchester United. He had to go, no question what so ever.... I’m just surprised he lasted as long as he in his last season. Good riddance.
 

el3mel

New Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2016
Messages
43,736
Location
Egypt
We haven't gone backward but we haven't gone forward either. We are where we were previously, as shite as ever. The only different thing is we are better in big games than last season. That's about it. Anyone thinking we have moved forward is letting romanticism cloud his mind.
 

crossy1686

career ending
Joined
Jun 5, 2010
Messages
32,157
Location
Manchester/Stockholm
Don’t get this obsession with us always having to move forwards in order to be doing the right thing.

If this was actually possible we’d be the greatest team the universe has ever seen, winning everything in our wake, even Fergie went backwards sometimes, his biggest ever achievement was keeping things the same. At some point you have to hit reset and start again if the project your working on is built on shitty foundations.

You don’t just keep driving the wrong way when you realise you’ve missed your turn off

Going backwards to go forwards again is healthy and necessary, especially when previously we’ve gone in the wrong direction.
 

el3mel

New Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2016
Messages
43,736
Location
Egypt
We have a manager who actually has the club's best intention at heart instead of his own ego and status. Thats a start, I am not convinced of Ole's abilities, but after this summer's failure to be backed especially after so many outgoings, I am willing to give him the required windows to make it work.

He has a much weaker team than Jose and has had to do without his best players most of the time due to injuries. Thus far he's been working with a very thin squad ravaged by injuries to its key players.

Still, he's doing relatively ok, for all his averageness, he knows how to beat stronger opposition. Most of the losses and draws have been by fine margins, something that added quality in the right places will solve.

Or you can go back to Jose who's only interested in signing 30 year olds. Remember he wanted rid of Martial to bring in Perisic.
We brought him a 80m defender and a 50m right back. I don't know how more he should have been backed last summer tbh.