Adam Johnson found guilty of one count of sexual activity with a child | Sentenced to six years

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Marching

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In a legal sense, she was indeed a victim of what Johnson did. But in my opinion - based on the Whatsapp messages and other bits of evidence, I believe that the victim here was aware of the situation and knew what she was doing/getting into, just as well as if she were a year older (and therefore of legal age to consent.)

Legally, the victim is indeed not able to make a sound judgement or decision in instances such as these, but this does not inherently make the experience traumatic for her.


I think we can boil this down to a couple of fairly straightforward questions;

1) Do you feel that Johnson's actions directly caused the victim a significant amount of pain or hurt?


2) Do you think the victim would have been better off if this entire incident had never made it to the media and public eye?


My answers are 'no' to question one and 'yes' to question two. None of this is an attempt to absolve Johnson of any blame, but rather I am thinking purely about the victim's situation here. It raises a potentially interesting legal/moral discussion in itself in that if (hypothetically) there was a choice between protecting the victim and punishing the offender, which do you/should you pursue?

The judge clearly thought the answer to your question was a huge yes.

When you were arrested you lied to Stacey Flounders about M. Whilst in interview you admitted kissing M, you lied about the nature and extent of your contact with her and you lied then and throughout the months which followed about the level of your sexual activity with her. You had every opportunity to enter guilty pleas to the matters you finally admitted to the Court but you chose not to do so, and one consequence of that is that M was regarded as a liar, by her peers and by the football supporters who would chant abuse about her. Little wonder that by the time of this trial she had, in her words endured a year of abuse, of being called a liar and other more graphic insults, and was deeply upset by what you had done to her and by her treatment, such that she required counselling and such that she reached the lowest ebb after she gave evidence. I shall return to the psychological impact of this case upon M shortly. That impact demonstrates why your offending against M provides a very good illustration of the inability of a 15 year old girl to deal with the emotional consequences of engaging in sexual activity with a man some 12 years her senior.

A further aggravating factor in such cases is where there is severe psychological harm. I have the benefit of information as to the impact of your offending on M. I have the detail discussed in her interview with the police on 16th April 2015, in which M spoke of people asking her about this matter and judging her, with particular reference to the impact upon her schooling and her life outside school. She spoke of an incident where a complete stranger made unpleasant and hurtful comments to her about what had happened, at a time when M was with family on a trip away from home. She said that she was scared by that experience, noting that the person who approached her was completely unknown to her. M also spoke about the impact of the offending on members of her family.
 

ivaldo

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Who's saying decisions are made on generalisations....I am sure each case is taken individually but my understanding is where possible and certainly in cases of single mothers where the child would have to go into care a mother is allowed to continue to care for their child.
Again, as stated 2/3rds of sentenced females aren't living with their child at the time of 'separation', how does that translate to 65% (all studies that I've seen state over a minimum of 50% to be conservative) harsher sentences for males? Those stats don't add up, how else can you explain this other than an Ill informed generalisation?
 
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RedRover

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When I said "cut off point" I meant a specific age (hence my mention of how the age of consent varies from country to country). Pre-pubescent means pre-puberty. Puberty is not a specific age but effectively the process of a child developing into an adult, which normally starts in the early teens. Without wanting to generalise, a pre-pubescent child is likely to have no sexual drive and little understanding or interest in things of a sexual nature. This is also the difference between paedophilia (sexual attraction to pre-pubescents), hebephilia (attraction to young adolescents in the early stages of puberty) and ephebophilia (attraction to adolescents in the latter stages of puberty) (thanks Wikipedia!). Once someone has gone through puberty then essentially they are an adult - even if not treated as such in the law (depending on the individual and the country they reside in).
My point is that "pre-pubescent", while obvious in some cases will not be in others. This creates uncertainty and that, almost always in the legal system is to the benefit of those who do wrong.

The argument that those post puberty are "adults" is fundamentally flawed. Whether you are an adult in body is irrelevant if you are not an adult in mind. Most 14 year olds may be adults by your definition but are, by right thinkin society, not emotionally sophisticated enough to make adult decisions.

By your definition: a person who has lived an adult life and has the emotional development that comes from that experience decides (against all they know to be wrong in terms of the law and societies "norms") to take advantage of a girl or boy who may have endured the necessary physical or chemical changes that puberty consists of is doing nothing wrong? Or at least shouldn't be severely punished for it?

No. I'm sorry. Society has a responsibility to protect the abused at all costs, not look for loopholes and justifications to protect the abusers.
 

Penna

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The messages show that all the urging to take things further came from him, not her. All the stuff about "more than a thank-you kiss" - disgusting. He orchestrated how things went.

If you start getting interest from your 'celebrity' (in Sunderland at least) idol and you are 15 years old, it's more than likely you will go along with what that person suggests, right or wrong.
 

lilcurt

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Agreeing to meet to get a signed jersey. Then the scumbag suggested he wanted something "in return" for it. Ugh.
That is different to the messages I've seen. If that is the case I take back what I said and agree with you.

The message I saw had a victim discussing things she would like to do when they met. Perhaps I haven't seen the full story.
 

MyOnlySolskjaer

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That is different to the messages I've seen. If that is the case I take back what I said and agree with you.

The message I saw had a victim discussing things she would like to do when they met. Perhaps I haven't seen the full story.

AJ: "You owe me"

AJ: "I thought I would have got a thank you kiss for the shirt"

AJ: "I will get this thank you, it had better be worth it"

SG: "Ha ha it will be"

AJ: "Confident aren't you? Am I only getting a kiss?"

SG: "Depends on what else you're after"

AJ: "I dunno, it depends what you are up for.. a little bit more than a kiss"

SG: "Like?"

AJ: "A bit of feeling. Just see. No pressure. Lol"

AJ: "Keep deleting our convos"
 

Chesterlestreet

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Again, as stated 2/3rds of sentenced females aren't living with their child at the time of 'separation', how does that translate to 65% (all studies that I've seen state over a minimum of 50% to be conservative) harsher sentences for males? Those stats don't add up, how else can you explain this other than an Ill informed generalisation?
Well, it's an interesting question. I certainly don't have the answer, but for the sake of argument isn't it possible that a form of gender-typical behaviour plays a part in this? Let's say that female offenders are less likely to behave in a manner which adds time to a standard sentence (the circumstances of the crimes committed are normal rather than aggravated more often than not) and more likely to admit guilt and cooperate with investigators (which will usually shave some time off the basic sentence).

I have no idea whether the above is actually true, just speculating.

Now, the question for me would be this: If there is no logical explanation, what are we actually looking at? Something as outdated as the “weaker sex” notion? We have to go easy on the poor women, even when they're hardened criminals?

As for the particular examples brought up in this thread, I think it's reasonable to suggest that certain stereotypes actually influence those outcomes. A female sex offender is very often, and by most people, considered a less dangerous figure than a male one. The former is rarely associated with violence, for instance. The basic idea of rape conjures up a male-on-female or a male-on-male scenario to most people. The basic idea of a pedophile conjures up something very similar. The female pedophile isn't much of a figure in the collective imagination – you very rarely see that figure portrayed anywhere, whether in the news or in fiction. And, finally, there's the South Park factor: Female teacher and male student? “Niiiiice.” Male teacher and female student? “Disgusting, vile, castrate the bastard.”

The above are cultural concepts that are very much alive. And such concepts may influence sentencing. I'm not saying they definitely do, but I think it would be naïve to dismiss the possibility.
 

Classical Mechanic

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@Chesterlestreet

Studies found that people of certain face types received longer sentences on average. Unconscious bias in sentencing is a very real thing and it stands to reason that male offenders would be more harshly dealt with than 'the fairer sex'.
 

montpelier

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the reoccurring women getting let off question...

It's the imbalance of power in society between men & women what causes women to commit any crimes that they do, anyway. Relatively reduced sentencing for women generally in comparison to the blokes is a reflection & acknowledgement of this.

Or it is further stereotyping, application of the prevailing social attitudes about women being sustained in a justice system operated for/by (privileged white) men.

And the South Park thing 2 posts up, is a big one, obvs.
 

Lynty

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He knew she was underage. He knew the law. He knew the consequences. The sentence was fair and unavoidable.

Doesn't stop me from feeling a little sorry for him though. I don't think his portrayal in the media is deserved and I'm sorry to say it - but a 15 year old girl should not be attracting the attention of anybody, especially 28year old footballers. Make of that what you will lest I type something I might regret.
 

Needham

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He knew she was underage. He knew the law. He knew the consequences. The sentence was fair and unavoidable.

Doesn't stop me from feeling a little sorry for him though. I don't think his portrayal in the media is deserved and I'm sorry to say it - but a 15 year old girl should not be attracting the attention of anybody, especially 28year old footballers. Make of that what you will lest I type something I might regret.
Oh, go on...
But why feel sorry for him? His hard drive was full of animal porn. I wonder how many of those average working class beasts gave their consent to be filmed let alone went on to receive royalties. Not many, unless they had agents. Its sad and sorry, the inner workings of a mans mind, what drives him on sexually, what excites him. If he is excited by what giraffes and stoats get up to then we might reasonably assume he would look at a fifteen year old girl. You know, Lynty, there might even be a member of Redcafe who has perused this thread for reasons which are less than pure, and who has excited himself at the mix of legalistic descriptions of what Johnson did combined with their own fetid imaginings, their darkest desires. Not nice, but I'm sure I am right. Even as I type this, someone might be reading and thinking about....Johnson...and...badger....15...god help....ohhhh!......yes....yes....YESYESYESYESYESYES
 

2 man midfield

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the reoccurring women getting let off question...

It's the imbalance of power in society between men & women what causes women to commit any crimes that they do, anyway.
Relatively reduced sentencing for women generally in comparison to the blokes is a reflection & acknowledgement of this.

Or it is further stereotyping, application of the prevailing social attitudes about women being sustained in a justice system operated for/by (privileged white) men.

And the South Park thing 2 posts up, is a big one, obvs.

:rolleyes:
 

Lynty

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But why feel sorry for him? His hard drive was full of animal porn.
That's disgusting and to be honest I had forgotten this, but it warrants a completely different case.

He had a psychiatric assessment that stated that there was no evidence that Johnson had a sexual attraction to prepubescent children.

I feel sorry for him because he has threw away his career, his status, his social life and mostly likely irreversibly damaged his relationship with his wife, daughter and family. That's on top of a 6 year jail sentence. All because he couldn't keep an attraction towards a good looking, seemingly willing girl in check. Don't get me wrong, he deserves all that because he entered the relationship knowing the consequences.

The law is black and white, life isn't.
 

TwoSheds

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That's disgusting and to be honest I had forgotten this, but it warrants a completely different case.

He had a psychiatric assessment that stated that there was no evidence that Johnson had a sexual attraction to prepubescent children.

I feel sorry for him because he has threw away his career, his status, his social life and mostly likely irreversibly damaged his relationship with his wife, daughter and family. That's on top of a 6 year jail sentence. All because he couldn't keep an attraction towards a good looking, seemingly willing girl in check. Don't get me wrong, he deserves all that because he entered the relationship knowing the consequences.

The law is black and white, life isn't.
Perhaps. But he's a rich, famous footballer who knowingly went out of his way to try and bang a 15 year old. fecking idiot. Could have any number of wag wannabes but obviously thought he was above the law.

For me it makes it worse that he's not attracted to kids, there's nothing mentally wrong with him, he's just an arrogant bellend. Deserves everything that's coming to him.
 

Speak

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By far (in my opinion) the worst part is that had she deleted the messages as he asked, she'd have been known as a liar, and would possibly have ended up dead, due to the abuse. And would he truly care? Not really. He'd be on to the next one.

So for that, I'd say the punishment isn't too harsh at all. It's one of those where the criminal had no issues with messing up the victims life to save their own, so they should accept whatever they get. He was willing to throw her under the bus, so now he's been thrown under the bus... too bad.

I'll probably get abuse for this, but him being attracted to her in the first place isn't a huge deal, in my opinion.
 

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I'll probably get abuse for this, but him being attracted to her in the first place isn't a huge deal, in my opinion.
Probably not. At that age they mostly go out of their way to look older. Historically speaking, girls used to get married to men well older at 12, 13 etc, even up until relatively recently. I know it's fiction, but isn't Juliet 13 in Romeo and Juliet? As you say the attraction, although creepy, isn't really that hard to get your head around. But the fact is he's the responsible adult in this scenario, and should have the presence of mind to call it off and make her decision for her, since she's deemed unable under the law.
 

TwoSheds

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By far (in my opinion) the worst part is that had she deleted the messages as he asked, she'd have been known as a liar, and would possibly have ended up dead, due to the abuse. And would he truly care? Not really. He'd be on to the next one.

So for that, I'd say the punishment isn't too harsh at all. It's one of those where the criminal had no issues with messing up the victims life to save their own, so they should accept whatever they get. He was willing to throw her under the bus, so now he's been thrown under the bus... too bad.

I'll probably get abuse for this, but him being attracted to her in the first place isn't a huge deal, in my opinion.
Him being attracted to her is fine. Him doing anything about it once he finds out she's 15 is anything but.
 

Ish

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31 years old. I wonder if there's any chance he could still play professional football - maybe even Championship level? Or if any club would be willing to give him a trial (excuse the pun), considering he's just got out of jail.

Did that other footballer (Chad/Ched Evans?) ever find a club?
 
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RobinLFC

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31 years old. I wonder if there's any chance he could still play professional football - maybe even Championship level? Or if any club would be willing to give him a trial, considering he's just got out of jail.

Did that other footballer (Chad/Ched Evans?) ever find a club?
Yeah, he did. Under contract with Sheffield United but loaned out to Fleetwood in League One, has scored a few goals this season as well. He might be playing in the Premier League next season if Sheffield gets promoted and he stays at the club.

I think Johnson would easily find another team if he gets himself into shape. Premier League level might be a bit too much though especially in the beginning.

EDIT: Evans has 13 goals in 31 league games this season, fecking hell. Not bad at all.
 

Samid

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No chance any team in the top two divisions go anywhere near him. PR disaster if there ever was one.
 

Ish

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Yeah, he did. Under contract with Sheffield United but loaned out to Fleetwood in League One, has scored a few goals this season as well. He might be playing in the Premier League next season if Sheffield gets promoted and he stays at the club.

I think Johnson would easily find another team if he gets himself into shape. Premier League level might be a bit too much though especially in the beginning.

EDIT: Evans has 13 goals in 31 league games this season, fecking hell. Not bad at all.
Yeah, not bad at all.

If my hazy memory recalls, Evans was found not guilty though, right?

So Johnson will find it extremely difficult I guess.
 

ChrisNelson

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Yeah, not bad at all.

If my hazy memory recalls, Evans was found not guilty though, right?

So Johnson will find it extremely difficult I guess.
Wasn't it guilty but then overturned? Or am I imagining that?!
 

El Zoido

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Did that other footballer (Chad/Ched Evans?) ever find a club?
Yeah, but it was never quite the same. Think he’s doing ok though? But the difference is that Evans was found not guilty at retrial, whereas Johnson most definitely is.
 

RobinLFC

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Yeah, not bad at all.

If my hazy memory recalls, Evans was found not guilty though, right?

So Johnson will find it extremely difficult I guess.
Yeah, but it was never quite the same. Think he’s doing ok though? But the difference is that Evans was found not guilty at retrial, whereas Johnson most definitely is.
Ah cheers, didn't know that. Might be a lot harder in that case.
 

Lay

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Can’t see lower league teams signing him but then again an ex Hearts player who was convicted of luring underage girls on the internet has found a club in the Scottish 4th tier.
 

Ish

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Wasn't it guilty but then overturned? Or am I imagining that?!
Yeah, but it was never quite the same. Think he’s doing ok though? But the difference is that Evans was found not guilty at retrial, whereas Johnson most definitely is.
Cheers lads.
Ah cheers, didn't know that. Might be a lot harder in that case.
It will be tough for him I guess. Maybe he has a chance to go to China or in the Middle East somewhere. Maybe even the States - but getting a visa to basically anywhere, with a criminal record, will be tough.
 
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