Carrick needs someone classy and productive next to him. Any wonder his most productive games for United was his first three years at the club when Scholes was still weaving his magic. Sneijder could have worked well as partner to bring Carricks best assets to good use.
Alas poor Carrick...WTF has happened?
- Thread starter Carl
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
TBH Carrick's 3rd year was awful b his standards. So that theory really doesn't hold. Carrick simply needs his best form to shine. Little else. He got it back last year and I believe he still has it as he showed when he came on for Cleverly vs Bolton. It's just his usual slow start to the season, that is denying him consistency that is deceiving some people that he has gone backwards again. It hasn't helped that he hasn't been a regular starter. Personally I'm looking forward to the nov-december period when he traditionally gets in to his stride. The return to form of him and Fletcher, with Cleverly, Anderson and Giggs around will make us stronger than ever.
Carrick next to Scholes in 2006-7 and 2007-8 was great, a really tremendous 2 man midfield, the best I've seen in my short 6 seasons following United.
In 2008-9 and through 2009-10, Scholes started dropping deeper, and we started playing more 3 man midfields with Scholes, Fletcher and Carrick. I was very interested to see who would go forward more.
At first it was Carrick, and he scored a few good goals, actually, and it maybe looked like it word work, but he never really kicked on from there.
And much worse for his game, he wasn't able to use his ability to make interceptions as efficiently, he wasn't in the spaces he normally occupied so effectively to cut off attacks. without being that strong at pursuit he wasn't as defensively effective.
The balance started going towards Fletcher till he was actually getting forward more than Carrick and it was better, but Carrick still wasn't as effective as he was in a 2 man midfield with Scholes. Fletcher went ahead of Carrick when we had a 2 man midfield as well, his form wasn't great at times.
2010-11, when he got to have a 2 man midfield with Giggs his strengths started showing again, but as that chart illustrates he's been sitting even deeper than he did with Scholes, allowing Giggs to go get forward and make do his snakehips thing. That makes sense to me, as Scholes liked to sit deeper and spread the ball, and Giggs likes to run with it, so I think his game is pretty much the same now a with Scholes, form permitting.
In 2008-9 and through 2009-10, Scholes started dropping deeper, and we started playing more 3 man midfields with Scholes, Fletcher and Carrick. I was very interested to see who would go forward more.
At first it was Carrick, and he scored a few good goals, actually, and it maybe looked like it word work, but he never really kicked on from there.
And much worse for his game, he wasn't able to use his ability to make interceptions as efficiently, he wasn't in the spaces he normally occupied so effectively to cut off attacks. without being that strong at pursuit he wasn't as defensively effective.
The balance started going towards Fletcher till he was actually getting forward more than Carrick and it was better, but Carrick still wasn't as effective as he was in a 2 man midfield with Scholes. Fletcher went ahead of Carrick when we had a 2 man midfield as well, his form wasn't great at times.
2010-11, when he got to have a 2 man midfield with Giggs his strengths started showing again, but as that chart illustrates he's been sitting even deeper than he did with Scholes, allowing Giggs to go get forward and make do his snakehips thing. That makes sense to me, as Scholes liked to sit deeper and spread the ball, and Giggs likes to run with it, so I think his game is pretty much the same now a with Scholes, form permitting.
@mrmujac:
IMHO Carrick (& Berbs) puts team in infront of personal glory. They always get stick but I´m sure they wouldn´t be here if they weren´t following Fergies instructions of what to do on the pitch, and if they weren´t doing the job good enough.
The point @mrmujac makes is another wonderful example of why MUFC is so special. Well fecking done Carrick!
IMHO Carrick (& Berbs) puts team in infront of personal glory. They always get stick but I´m sure they wouldn´t be here if they weren´t following Fergies instructions of what to do on the pitch, and if they weren´t doing the job good enough.
The point @mrmujac makes is another wonderful example of why MUFC is so special. Well fecking done Carrick!
Michael Carrick has started 80% of United's CL games since arriving at the club. When he starts, United win 68%. When not, drops to 42%.
Correlation does not mean causation.
Who is that person?
In this case however there is a causation. Carrick is essential to us especially in European away matches, only an idiot would deny this fact.
It does not. It can imply it, however. The stat certainly regards him as a beneficial player. It's not as if he plays insignificant CL games either.
That stat needs much more details to back it up in any meaningfull way.
You would want to know;
Have the games been home or away?
Have they been meaningless end of group games?
Would a draw be enouh for us to progress in those games?
What standard of opposition have we faced?
Has it been a full first choice team played with the exception of Carrick?
So many other variables, until you back it up it really yet another meaningless stat posted in this thread.
This would mean that he does not play in the insignificant games where the win is not quite so vital hence the team would not be gunning for 3 points as much.
You just destroyed you're own point.
In a very small sample all those questions would be relevant.
Bearing in mind we're talking about a total 0f 60 CL games (out of which Carrick started 50) I'd say there's a fairly clear pattern there, without any need to go through the games one by one.
Bollocks to stats though. It's really not hard to see the positive influence he's had on our football in Europe over the years. In his own, understated way Carrick has made us a lot harder to beat. These stats only confirm what most people would have figured out just by watching us play.
I don't think those questions are irrelevant. You say he didn't play in 10 games, of those ten games we won 42% (how you get 42% out of ten I don't know) as opposed to the usual 68% we would win with Carrick playing. So that's 2.6 games of a difference where we didn't win. That's a tiny sample. Whose to say those games were not either irrelevant end of group stage games or games where we had a severly weakened team playing against good opposition.
I'm not saying that those were the circumstances, but as you said yourself, stats are bullshit unless you can provide the raw data to back them up. Far too many variable in far to few games for this to prove anything.
I'm not saying that those were the circumstances, but as you said yourself, stats are bullshit unless you can provide the raw data to back them up. Far too many variable in far to few games for this to prove anything.
Carrick is one of the first names down on the sheet (mine, at least) when we're playing in Europe. Even when he plays at his average level, the interceptions, covering for out of position players, tackling, screening he does is essential, and has contributed to our miserly defense record over the past few years. The stat gives him way too much credit, that's all.
You mis-understood. I meant to imply he plays the large majority of our CL games and not just pointless group stage games. That much is already obvious. It should tell you that it's also no coincidence we've reached 3 CL finals in the 5 seasons Carrick has played here. He's not the pinnacle of our CL success but he has contributed to it, as the stat proves.
someone mentioned earlier in this thread that opponents shots are up from last season as is our keepers saves. One theory was because they wanted to test De Gea being new to the premier league but I think its more down to going with Anderson-Cleverly/ Anderson-Fletcher. Carrick, even in recent interviews, prides himself on his defensive position and with him sitting right in front of the back 4 neutralizes the opponents open lane for a shot.
He doesnt get a huge amount of credit but if you pay particular attention to Carrick during the opponents build up you can actually see how many times the player wants to play the ball into space around our 18 yard box yet cant due to Carrick being so sound. (Sorry if this came out of no-where but just wanted to get on my soapbox
)I find Michael a frustrating player. He's clearly a good player but he has the ability to be a truly great player and it looks like he's not quite got the confidence to achieve it. Prove me wrong Michael, you've got what it takes, you just have to realise it!
He, like Fletcher, are on the brink of losing their place in the team. Plus, the question is whether they still fit into our new system. I can see Carrick moving as he would start for most PL teams, and Fletch going back to being a back up player.
As for Carrick, he just has never regained the form he had 2-3 years ago. The reason, who knows...
As for Carrick, he just has never regained the form he had 2-3 years ago. The reason, who knows...
Its hard to see carrick in the new system we play tbh. the tempo is just too fast for him. he's too immobile to complement the others. still a great option to have shielding the defence when we play 3 in the middle though.
When rio and vida get back, i'd love to see jones given a shot with ando in there. thats if clev isnt match fit till then though which i think he will be.
When rio and vida get back, i'd love to see jones given a shot with ando in there. thats if clev isnt match fit till then though which i think he will be.
Maybe I'm sentimental, but I think the 2006-7 and 2007-8 United team is a team that deserves to go down as one of the best of recent times.
Stopping Mourinho's Chelsea in the league in 2006-7 is almost as impressive, to me, as winning a 3rd European Cup. Those teams were build on defense, VDS, Rio, Vidic, Neville, Evra, Scholes, Carrick and Brown were all at the very top of their class at their position, as good anyone in the world at winning the defensive battle for their football team as a unit.
We beat Barca and Chelsea with defense, letting in one jammy Lampard lucky rebound goal in 310+ minutes between the two of them in the CL in 2007-8! We let in 22 goals in the league in 2007-8, 27 in 2006-7.
Carrick certainly doesn't deserve to be called useless or anything of the sort.
Stopping Mourinho's Chelsea in the league in 2006-7 is almost as impressive, to me, as winning a 3rd European Cup. Those teams were build on defense, VDS, Rio, Vidic, Neville, Evra, Scholes, Carrick and Brown were all at the very top of their class at their position, as good anyone in the world at winning the defensive battle for their football team as a unit.
We beat Barca and Chelsea with defense, letting in one jammy Lampard lucky rebound goal in 310+ minutes between the two of them in the CL in 2007-8! We let in 22 goals in the league in 2007-8, 27 in 2006-7.
Carrick certainly doesn't deserve to be called useless or anything of the sort.
At 30 years old it is unlikely we are going to see anything better from him than we have seen in the past, so I'd assert the chances of him becoming "truly great" are pretty slim. I think the only thing United fans want is to see him back where he was 2-3 years ago. Otherwise I can see the likes of Jones/Cleverley/Anderson using his poor form to relegate him to backup.
You are absolutely spot on, but i have been saying this for years and i cite the change in circumstance and expectation after Ron and Tevez left as the reason for his otherwise inexplicable devolution as a player.
I must be honest i now very much doubt whether at 30 he is suddenly going to break free from his psychological shackles and become the player we thought he should have become.
This is the main source of frustaration for me, he simply does not possess the character to step up. When Ron left there was an opportunity for him to step up instead he stepped down. That indicates to me there is no more to come from Carrick im afraid, he will play well when his partner or the team plays well.
When no-one else steps up and he feels pressure to take the initiative, he visibly shrinks from the challenge.
I think there is no room for doubt regarding that.Carrick will never change his style of play
He's never had that. People want to believe it but he doesn't. We should, as with Darren Fletcher, appreciate him for being a good player who does a specific job well. He'll never be a top player/great player/truly great player and it's not a crime.
Dunno. Someone I follow on twatter...
If you had half a clue, you would've noticed him on these forums before.
RedCafe.net - View Profile: Mr. MUJAC
Brilliant first half, some of his passes have been fantastic.
Some of the one touch passing has been amazing
Yup, been top notch.
He has been very good so far. Looked sharp
Then in the second half he pulled off a magic trick that Copperfield would have been proud of.
The one which makes the magician vanish?
Is he a defensive midfielder?
Game of 2 halves.
Attacking wise, he was brilliant tonight. But watch people come and criticise him for his defensive work today...The same people that have moaned about him not being forceful or attacking enough. Basically, he cant win.
Anyways, best player on the pitch tonight.
Anyways, best player on the pitch tonight.
I don't care if he makes the occasional pretty pass, he's a waste of space. He might as well have gone for a coffee during the second half.
True
You can't really expect a Manchester United defensive midfielder to be effective both when defending and attacking can't you?
There very, very few midfielders in world football that can be as good offensively and defensively at the same time, infact, can you name any at all? Look at the top midfielders in the world, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Snjeider, Mascherao etc etc they all have their main roles, either offensively or defensively. Yet you lot expect Carrick to pull of both roles, at once, or he's not good enough to be a Manchester United midfielder. Its complete and utter madness.
you need someone to shield the back four and we were exposed time and time again. The best player on the pitch? it's not really saying much is it....Who was the defensive midfielder? Both went forward but Carrick has the experience. What chance did he create? He didn't win many tackles. Pretty passing? You're easily pleased but this isn't a carrick problem tonight. I think tonight, we went through the motions and are damn lucky with a point
Players jogging round the pitch, the second goal was an absolute joke.