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2016-17 Performances


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jungledrums

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Controlling the game is about ensuring the game goes how you want it to go, it has nothing to do with controlling the ball.

For instance, if team X's plan for the game is to entice team Y deep into their half without pressing before it with the intention of taking the ball and releasing it directly with pace to a fast forward line thus creating various 3 v 3, 2 v 2 situations, they will willingly cede the ball as that's what's needed to make the game go as they want. Now, if they do this with success in the game, Team X controlled the game because it went exactly how they wanted it to go. In such a plan, the opponent team is almost certainly going to have 60%+ possession. Again, that's exactly what team A wanted and was a critical component of them controlling the game.

Controlling the ball /= Controlling the game.
He's gonna counter by saying some nonsense like "obviously the manager had to set his team up that way because of an inferior midfield". It's the most rudimentary 'analysis' of football imaginable and as correct as you are, he'll never listen, so it's hardly worth a response.
 

Footyislife

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I think you can find midfielders who are better than Herrera in some aspects of the game. However, I think you will struggle to find a more versatile, intelligent, selfless, and passionate one than Herrera.

The issue is with Herrera playing DM we lack a dynamic B2B midfielder as Fellaini just doesn't cut it. Despite the occasional headed goal, we sacrifice too much in building up and linking up play. With Carrick as the DM, Jose rarely gives Herrera the license to go forward as I don't think he fully trusts Carrick can cover all that ground in the zonal marking system.

So to me he either needs to buy a B2B and play Herrera as the DM. Or the better option would be to get a physical DM and let Herrera be more of a natural B2B.
 

cheeky_backheel

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Controlling the game is about ensuring the game goes how you want it to go, it has nothing to do with controlling the ball.

For instance, if team X's plan for the game is to entice team Y deep into their half without pressing before it with the intention of taking the ball and releasing it directly with pace to a fast forward line thus creating various 3 v 3, 2 v 2 situations, they will willingly cede the ball as that's what's needed to make the game go as they want. Now, if they do this with success in the game, Team X controlled the game because it went exactly how they wanted it to go. In such a plan, the opponent team is almost certainly going to have 60%+ possession. Again, that's exactly what team A wanted and was a critical component of them controlling the game.

Controlling the ball /= Controlling the game.
That is hope and not control, as you have no way to ensure they will take your bait and thus have your desired situation. Barcelona under pep was notorious for this as they would rather pass the ball in their backfield than risk losing possession.

On the other hand, the person with the ball can force you to respond to his actions else he scores and wins the game e.g. if he attacks down the right flank, your team responds by defending on that side. Again which is why you are always seeking an opportunity to take possession of the ball because that is when you have control.

To take it to the extreme, if the opposition has 100% possession in a game then it is highly likely that they would win and impossible for them to lose. With 0% possession you have no chance of winning the game and can only fight not to lose.
 

ivaldo

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What a lot of tosh, I've stated Herrera is a decent player but someone who is not good enough to play as a 6 regularly and if he's an 8 we should aim higher. Don't throw accusations or make this one personal @ivaldo as I quite like your chat but I'm well within my right to have a different view on Herrera and this last post is just a slant.
Apologies it was a little snidey but come on mate. You've gone from him not being a big game player to not picking up enough assists and goals to not providing enough defensively. Whenever I, or others have provided evidence of this you've dismissed it out of hand without reason and then gone on to the next criticism.
 

roonster09

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That is hope and not control, as you have no way to ensure they will take your bait and thus have your desired situation. Barcelona under pep was notorious for this as they would rather pass the ball in their backfield than risk losing possession.

On the other hand, the person with the ball can force you to respond to his actions else he scores and wins the game e.g. if he attacks down the right flank, your team responds by defending on that side. Again which is why you are always seeking an opportunity to take possession of the ball because that is when you have control.

To take it to the extreme, if the opposition has 100% possession in a game then it is highly likely that they would win and impossible for them to lose. With 0% possession you have no chance of winning the game and can only fight not to lose.
You didn't answer my question. Did you think we controlled against all big teams with Moyes in charge?
 

cheeky_backheel

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You didn't answer my question. Did you think we controlled against all big teams with Moyes in charge?
Yes we had more control of the games in which we had more possession. The failure is in that we were not effective in using our control, and is essentially why you can win a game by having less possession and even less scoring opportunities. Winning a game and having control are not directly correlated
 

DomesticTadpole

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I think some people need to get a life. I adore Herrera, but I am sure as hell not going to lose sleep over him.
 

roonster09

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Yes we had more control of the games in which we had more possession. The failure is in that we were not effective in using our control, and is essentially why you can win a game by having less possession and even less scoring opportunities. Winning a game and having control are not directly correlated
We had more control against big games under Moyes, lets agree to disagree. Just argue some ridiculous points.
 

Varun

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He's gonna counter by saying some nonsense like "obviously the manager had to set his team up that way because of an inferior midfield". It's the most rudimentary 'analysis' of football imaginable and as correct as you are, he'll never listen, so it's hardly worth a response.
Thankfully, I've long passed that stage on Caf where I get into a long back and forth to convince someone of my point of view. If he gets it, good, if he doesn't, meh.
That is hope and not control, as you have no way to ensure they will take your bait and thus have your desired situation. Barcelona under pep was notorious for this as they would rather pass the ball in their backfield than risk losing possession.

On the other hand, the person with the ball can force you to respond to his actions else he scores and wins the game e.g. if he attacks down the right flank, your team responds by defending on that side. Again which is why you are always seeking an opportunity to take possession of the ball because that is when you have control.

To take it to the extreme, if the opposition has 100% possession in a game then it is highly likely that they would win and impossible for them to lose. With 0% possession you have no chance of winning the game and can only fight not to lose.
Okay.
 

Lawman

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Apologies it was a little snidey but come on mate. You've gone from him not being a big game player to not picking up enough assists and goals to not providing enough defensively. Whenever I, or others have provided evidence of this you've dismissed it out of hand without reason and then gone on to the next criticism.
Fair enough that last post isn't you. I think Herrera is good when we are winning and he has a great first touch trick, he has a brilliant little deft cross from the edge of the right hand side of the box and high energy. He's not a bad wee player but he is defensively poor imo and average passer and poor long passer. He doesn't get enough goals either and when needed he goes missing when we most need him just my take on it. I've watched him the last two seasons live that's what I see. I love his passion but his inability to take the game by the scruff of the neck when others are having a poor game is disappointing plus the fact he just keeps passing to Pogba regardless if Pogba is having a poor game. Sometimes I just wish he had a bit more about him.
 

Water Melon

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Ander Herrera is the only midfielder this season, who has not gone missing. Pog went awol in big games, Ander has been the only one who never gave in, no matter what. Those who say he does not take games by the scruff of the neck want him to be a super human. Look at the players around Keano, read how he thanked Fletch for doing what he did which allowed Roy to win midfield battles. This season Ander has been trying to do 2 Ander's job. As for his passing, he is a very good passer and the recent assist shows it all. Mou has obviously instructed Ander to play it safe and keep it clicking. Bring in Itturaspe to help out Ander and he will shine even more. A proper brains and a tad faster legs to replace Carrick will be purchased in the summer, which will allow both Pog and Ander to play better and spare some energy. As for this season, Ander has been the mainstay of our quite unbalanced midfield.
 

Water Melon

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I am not really worried when Carrick does not play, but if Ander is missing, that is a huge gap in our midfield. None of Fellaini, Carrick and Pogba provide the bite, legs, energy that Ander does. If you want him to contribute more offensively, well, find someone to help the defence first, which is exactly what Mou's priority is.
 

anant

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Are we seriously arguing whether possession=Control? If there is one thing that LVG's 2nd season taught us, it was that they aren't.

For a player who has been played more as a defensive midfielder this season, a season where we've been the 2nd best side defensively, I'd say he's done a great job. And before people bring up that our defensive stats were similar last season as well, we've not been an overly defensive side this year, I'd barely qualify even our style as defensive (We've created more chances than Arsenal and Chelsea, and we had created more chances than City till a few weeks ago as well IIRC).
We've become so obsessed with having 11 Galacticos that we're criticising (arguably) our player of our season.
 

El Jefe

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3 you mention in Vidal Essian Rakitic are better players than Herrera. Matuidi I think is also but less so than the others. Vidal and Essian could easily play in a 2 man midfield but their partner would have to compliment (Vidal especially) but Essian was a monster so to compare him to Herrera is strange imo. Fabregas is not an 8 for many a year due to his lack of legs nowadays. But early 20s he could play 6,8 or 10 he was that good. Plus his passing and choice of passing then and now is far superior to Herrera. We need both a new 6 and eventually an 8 to replace Herrera imo someone who is capable of some magic and work rate or some one who has the legs to go past the strikers and add a goal threat. We don't have that just now in Herrera .
Its baffling how he keeps mentioning Vidal, Essien and Rakitic. While they may be similar players they are/were on a different level to Herrera so the comparison makes no sense.
Again, the people here who say that Herrera should be replaced by someone else because he is not good enough for a top team - who is that someone?

I also see arguments that his passing range is not as expansive as Pogba or Carrick, or that he does not shield the defence as well as Matic or Carrick since his positioning is not as great as them. So do you expect Herrera to have all the attributes of boundless energy, skill on the ball, superb positioning and 60 yard passing range? If so, that must be one of the best midfielders to have played the game ever.

As mentioned by Pof:" He's versatile, can operate in multiple midfield roles and follows instructions to a tee. He's a manager's dream." - what more could you want? To add to that, he loves the club, raises his game against the 'better' sides and really is a quality candidate to be the next captain.
I don't think anyone is saying Herrera shouldn't play for us and if so that's insane. Rather myself and a few others believe that we need a better player than Herrera in the summer and he should not necessarily have a starting place.

Nobody is expecting him to be a Pogba and Carrick hybrid we're just asking for an improvement of his use of the ball. In games without Carrick he's terrible at receiving the ball from the back four and often lacks the confidence to receive the pass deep and start the play, he almost always passes the ball backwards in those situations. Also when Pogba is missing like in recent games, he has been found wanting in his use of the ball as the onus is on him a bit more.

As good as Ander is, he absolutely needs someone better in both defensive and offensive aspects of the game along with him in midfield.

In addition to this, the current team really struggles to score goals. We're more likely to score playing a 4231 than a 433 as we sacrifice a midfielder for an attacker. That way we can have two specialists in Pogba and a new top class DM. Doing this will minimise the loss of Herrera in the team but also lead to a much greater benefit in our ability to score goals.

He definitely has his uses but I do not agree with the view that he must start or improving our team without him isn't possible.
 

Water Melon

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Its baffling how he keeps mentioning Vidal, Essien and Rakitic. While they may be similar players they are/were on a different level to Herrera so the comparison makes no sense.

I don't think anyone is saying Herrera shouldn't play for us and if so that's insane. Rather myself and a few others believe that we need a better player than Herrera in the summer and he should not necessarily have a starting place.

Nobody is expecting him to be a Pogba and Carrick hybrid we're just asking for an improvement of his use of the ball. In games without Carrick he's terrible at receiving the ball from the back four and often lacks the confidence to receive the pass deep and start the play, he almost always passes the ball backwards in those situations. Also when Pogba is missing like in recent games, he has been found wanting in his use of the ball as the onus is on him a bit more.

As good as Ander is, he absolutely needs someone better in both defensive and offensive aspects of the game along with him in midfield.

In addition to this, the current team really struggles to score goals. We're more likely to score playing a 4231 than a 433 as we sacrifice a midfielder for an attacker. That way we can have two specialists in Pogba and a new top class DM. Doing this will minimise the loss of Herrera in the team but also lead to a much greater benefit in our ability to score goals.

He definitely has his uses but I do not agree with the view that he must start or improving our team without him isn't possible.
You will be deeply surprised come autumn to see Herrera in our starting 11. I have huge doubts that Mou is thinking of replacing Herrera with a better player. There are so many positions to be taken care of before it comes to Herrera. LB, CB, arguably both wings and CF are of much deeper concern than replacing Ander. Carrick will be replaced but not Ander. In those games when Carrick does not play, Ander is on his own in midfield. Our wing backs, wingers and attackers are somewhere out there not making themselves for a pass. Our CBs are from being ball-playing ones. By the way, if I was asked who makes himself available to relieve the pressure, I would name Herrera.
 

Lawman

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You will be deeply surprised come autumn to see Herrera in our starting 11. I have huge doubts that Mou is thinking of replacing Herrera with a better player. There are so many positions to be taken care of before it comes to Herrera. LB, CB, arguably both wings and CF are of much deeper concern than replacing Ander. Carrick will be replaced but not Ander. In those games when Carrick does not play, Ander is on his own in midfield. Our wing backs, wingers and attackers are somewhere out there not making themselves for a pass. Our CBs are from being ball-playing ones. By the way, if I was asked who makes himself available to relieve the pressure, I would name Herrera.
This is what @El Jefe is saying and I agree. Herrera is the least of our problems but not the solution long term either.
 

AR87

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ok then you are answering the wrong question.

Still, if possession ~=control, then state how you can control a game without controlling the ball?
Watch the Everton away match right before Moyes got sacked again. We dominated possession and Everton still were in complete control of the match.

Hell you could even use the 2nd leg against Real Madrid before the Nani sending off in 2012/13 as an example of how you can control a match without controlling possession. Madrid never looked likely to score prior to us going a man down and we scored on the counter as well.
 

Obiorahking_

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3 you mention in Vidal Essian Rakitic are better players than Herrera. Matuidi I think is also but less so than the others.
I am not concerned with the quality of the player but rather the type of the player. You wouldn't play someone who is great in one position into a different position.
Vidal and Essian could easily play in a 2 man midfield but their partner would have to compliment (Vidal especially) but Essian was a monster so to compare him to Herrera is strange imo.
In this team, Vidal can't be in a two man midfield, nor as far as i'm has he ever played in one. The fact that you think he can be a creative midfielder in the mould of Pogba who can consistently create for his team or sit in front of the midifeld in laughable and calls into question whether or not you watch him play.

Essien was a monster? I concur but how does he operate in a two man midfield? Especially in this side? He was neither a creator nor a reliable holding midfielder and was never used as such.
. Fabregas is not an 8 for many a year due to his lack of legs nowadays. But early 20s he could play 6,8 or 10 he was that good.
Fabregas was an 8 when they won the league with Matic operating as the DM who held down the back 4 for him to go forward. Fabregas was never a 6 as he never had the defensive impetus or the workrate to play that role.
an 8 to replace Herrera imo someone who is capable of some magic and work rate or some one who has the legs to go past the strikers and add a goal threat. We don't have that just now in Herrera
Magic, workrate, and someone who has the legs to go past strikers and add a goal threat......Name all the midfielders in the world who you think are capable of this because as far as im concerned the only player capable of such is Luka Modric. Nice to know you think those types of midfielders grow on trees.
 

Obiorahking_

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Second. Control of possession doesn't mean the midfield is controlling possession. It involves all players from the defense all the way to the attack. Using the possession stat to indicate whose midfield is in control is bogos because it doesn't take into account whether the team is playing out for the back or what third of the pitch the team is possessing the ball, or what the motives of the manager is. @cheeky_backheel
 
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Obiorahking_

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Its baffling how he keeps mentioning Vidal, Essien and Rakitic. While they may be similar players they are/were on a different level to Herrera so the comparison makes no sense.
This just shows me you have no way of countering the argument. The level of quality these guys play in their respective positions is a red herring. The conjecture at hand is that you can't take a player who is great at 1 position and put him in a new role and expecting him to fufill that role. All players mentioned were better than Herrera. I agree. But they wouldn't be effective if you put them in a different role with different responsibilities. Its like telling a CB to play as as CM or CAM to play as a CM.
 

Obiorahking_

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Nobody is expecting him to be a Pogba and Carrick hybrid we're just asking for an improvement of his use of the ball. In games without Carrick he's terrible at receiving the ball from the back four and often lacks the confidence to receive the pass deep and start the play, he almost always passes the ball backwards in those situations.
Because.That. Is. Not. His. Fecking. Job. He. Is. Not. A. 6.
 

Fracture90

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Even if he did he will probably get slated for it if the other team has more possession than us.
Have you seen his facial expression when he was coming in? He was proper pissed about the game and the result. That kind of attitude I want from our captain.
 

Obiorahking_

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Have you seen his facial expression when he was coming in? He was proper pissed about the game and the result. That kind of attitude I want from our captain.
Honestly, given the requirements of a captain only him, De Gea, and Valencia fit the bill to be a captain.
 

El Jefe

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This just shows me you have no way of countering the argument. The level of quality these guys play in their respective positions is a red herring. The conjecture at hand is that you can't take a player who is great at 1 position and put him in a new role and expecting him to fufill that role. All players mentioned were better than Herrera. I agree. But they wouldn't be effective if you put them in a different role with different responsibilities. Its like telling a CB to play as as CM or CAM to play as a CM.
What argument? You've gone on ramblings about nothing bringing in world class players into the discussion and trying to draw parallels between them and Herrera while ignoring the gulf in quality of said players and also respective systems of the teams they play in.

You've danced around the major points made by myself and @Lawman and proceeded to make straw man arguments.

I did say at the start that you're clueless posts on the subject was a reason I did not want to engage in debate with you but you accused me of shying away. After engaging in the debate with you, I only have myself to blame.
 

Devil may care

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People can feel he's not good enough long term but right now him and Pogba are our only midfielders that we can rely on at the moment.
 

Obiorahking_

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What argument? You've gone on ramblings about nothing bringing in world class players into the discussion and trying to draw parallels between them and Herrera while ignoring the gulf in quality of said players and also respective systems of the teams they play in.

You've danced around the major points made by myself and @Lawman and proceeded to make straw man arguments.

I did say at the start that you're clueless posts on the subject was a reason I did not want to engage in debate with you but you accused me of shying away. After engaging in the debate with you, I only have myself to blame.
The red herrings and adhominems continue. Trying to attack the poster by introducing an inaccurate summary of my main premise and painting the poster as delusional, yet you have done nothing to counter the initial argument at hand. At least you are consistent.

As I have stated three times before, the quality of said players is irrelevant. What matters is that all said players operate in a 433 as B2B midfielders. The qualities of Herrera you criticize is that he excels at neither attacking as a consistently sole creative player, or at defending as a player who can sit in front of the defense while being the primary distributor apply to all of those world class examples. Thus that explains why none of them can be anywhere near as effective in a 4231. Its like pairing Carrick with Blind and telling Carrick that he has to be a creator despite the fact that he is a holding CM

I did say at the start that you're clueless posts on the subject was a reason I did not want to engage in debate with you but you accused me of shying away. After engaging in the debate with you, I only have myself to blame.
You are starting to annoy me. You try and label my posts as curious and use it as an excuse for not proving your point. Its weak. Its cowardly.
You are the one who has consistently tried to attack me in this discussion.
You are the one who cannot string a coherent argument as to why Herrera ought to be replaced and/or provides minimal impact on this team.
You are the only one who labels my posts as "clueless" when nobody gave you the right to do so.

But I'm the clueless one...
 

El Jefe

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The red herrings and adhominems continue. Trying to attack the poster by introducing an inaccurate summary of my main premise and painting the poster as delusional, yet you have done nothing to counter the initial argument at hand. At least you are consistent.

As I have stated three times before, the quality of said players is irrelevant. What matters is that all said players operate in a 433 as B2B midfielders. The qualities of Herrera you criticize is that he excels at neither attacking as a consistently sole creative player, or at defending as a player who can sit in front of the defense while being the primary distributor apply to all of those world class examples. Thus that explains why none of them can be anywhere near as effective in a 4231. Its like pairing Carrick with Blind and telling Carrick that he has to be a creator despite the fact that he is a holding CM


You are starting to annoy me. You try and label my posts as curious and use it as an excuse for not proving your point. Its weak. Its cowardly.
You are the one who has consistently tried to attack me in this discussion.
You are the one who cannot string a coherent argument as to why Herrera ought to be replaced and/or provides minimal impact on this team.
You are the only one who labels my posts as "clueless" when nobody gave you the right to do so.

But I'm the clueless one...
Good day to you sir. As you were...
 

prath92

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A bit too rash in my opinion, but if he carrys on into next season I would consider the possibility.
He's not rash any more than Herrera or anyone else in the team. Think he has fully developed into a leader at the back and is no-nonsense dealing with most forwards. Plus he arguably is the most passionate in the squad with his #rojoisred tweets and watching us as part of the away fans a couple of times.
 

Obiorahking_

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He's not rash any more than Herrera or anyone else in the team. Think he has fully developed into a leader at the back and is no-nonsense dealing with most forwards. Plus he arguably is the most passionate in the squad with his #rojoisred tweets and watching us as part of the away fans a couple of times.
Good points. I guess injuries would be the only thing holding him back.
 

harms

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A compilation of his season so far.

I have been his personal fan even since his Athletic days, but I always felt that he has a certain ceiling - it was mostly evident when he saw an interesting pass or an opportunity but his technical ability failed him; vision was there, but not the execution. This season, alongside the undeniable (and incredible) progress in his defensive game, he also really improved his passing game. Very impressive.
 

criticalanalysis

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A compilation of his season so far.

I have been his personal fan even since his Athletic days, but I always felt that he has a certain ceiling - it was mostly evident when he saw an interesting pass or an opportunity but his technical ability failed him; vision was there, but not the execution. This season, alongside the undeniable (and incredible) progress in his defensive game, he also really improved his passing game. Very impressive.
That's an interesting point. When I think of his creative play, in standing still situations (i.e when his feet are set) I think of very good passing technique but sometimes over eagerness or rather poor choices. I think he has more in his locker though because although he's not as svelte as a Ozil/Silva type, he has that ability to wriggle into space, not neccasarily in beating a player but by creating that angle for more intricate/telling passes. Specifically I am thinking about his first touch, feints and first step acceleration. I haven't seen that video yet but I'm guessing there's a few good examples of that in there*

The problem is, he's not really been given that platform to do it. That kind of freedom is given to your 2nd striker/main playmaker, which he will never get the chance to be but I think in a more solid team i.e one that presses and doesn't sh|t itself of losing the ball, he can become even more productive. I mean just imagine if he didn't have to play BEHIND Fellani or compensate his game because he's playing alongside Carrick. I.e Let's fecking get an energy player with good passing technique and watch Herrera and Pogba dominate.

Edit: * Lol watching it now and basically the first couple minutes already.
Just finished. It's a pretty brilliant compilation of all the things Herrera does so well. Let's make him the 8.
 
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manutddjw

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He should be captain. He speaks good English and there's very few in the team who has the passion for this club that he has.

I've seen the question about how good he is and to me he's one of the many players we've had in our history where if you did a top 10 list in their position, they likely don't make the cut. But for us they're hugely important and make a difference.
 
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