Are we jinxed or is there a coaching issue at Manchester United

rpg

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Its the culture that changed since Fergie left. Everyone from the top management to the ball boy to the janitor. When you are a player and you just lost the game and you walked to wc and the janitor will there smilling and wanting your photograph.

We also have lost that Old Trafford fear factor. During Fergie times others came here hoping for a draw while expecting a lose. But since then Moyes came and aspired to be Man City, Van Gaal twitched his asses everytime the team loses the ball, there you became just another football club.
 

Foxbatt

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What do you expect when the Manager also sits there during the game without standing up most of the time. As if he doesn't know what is going on.
 

Redplane

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So much more concerning right now- do we have any players who are truly in form at the moment?

I havent been paying attention to the national games that closely but it seems like of those who played almost none, except for maybe a VDB, had a good time.
 

Foxbatt

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Have a good look at our games so far. Do it slow mo too. You will see how disjointed we are always. Yes we score sometimes but it is the brilliance of the players. Not as a team. Look at the Spurs game. Jose got the tactics exactly right. It reminds me of our game against Ajax in the Final. Bailly is Sanchez in that match. We are way too open. Greenwood is a very young player and he should not be starting important games. Our three attackers are way too far from each other. Way too far. Our midfield gets dragged into positions that they do not want to be. Our CBs get dragged into positions they do not want to be. Our Fbs get dragged into positions they do not want to be. All this is down to coaching. And when it is unfolding during the game, our Manager just sits in his chair and does feck all. When he sees that the players are all over the place he needs to be down in his box screaming blue murder. No he doesn't. Why? Because he has no clue. He does not believe that space is important in a football match.
 

luke511

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Every training clip on the youtube channel has this same training routine, there's obviously more to the training sessions but they make it look like they do the same shit every day :lol:
 

Greck

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I just saw an hour long tactical and formation talk by Bielsa. I did not know he was that good. It was just like the Johan Cruijjf talk on how football was played. 10 formations with the same players only and then he went on to chose the best way to play with the current available players. These players change formations during the match but it is the same 11 players. FBs, coming into CB positions, midfield positions and winger positions. CBs going into FB positions, and into midfield positions and midfield players doing the same. It is a sort of an axis they move in various stages of the game.
If he could get a decent team he will work wonders. Multifunctionality of players he wants. Every player has to be able to play in three positions during the game. Player who has the best two positions is chosen over a player who can do only one function best. He says that in practice they have to practice playing in these 3 positions every day. According to his theory AWB is not going to be playing. ( He didn't mention AWB but a player who is only good in one function or position) So someone mentioned Fred as a right back in another post and it may work if Bielsa's theory is correct.
When you listen to his presentation you can see that everything that is wrong at United as per the way we play. He says a coach must believe in what he is doing on the pitch and he must show emotions on the pitch side. Otherwise no one will believe in you and what you are doing. He said football is an emotional game.
Have this on standby the next time someone implies coaching is some mythical term the caf invented
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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I just saw an hour long tactical and formation talk by Bielsa. I did not know he was that good. It was just like the Johan Cruijjf talk on how football was played. 10 formations with the same players only and then he went on to chose the best way to play with the current available players. These players change formations during the match but it is the same 11 players. FBs, coming into CB positions, midfield positions and winger positions. CBs going into FB positions, and into midfield positions and midfield players doing the same. It is a sort of an axis they move in various stages of the game.
If he could get a decent team he will work wonders. Multifunctionality of players he wants. Every player has to be able to play in three positions during the game. Player who has the best two positions is chosen over a player who can do only one function best. He says that in practice they have to practice playing in these 3 positions every day. According to his theory AWB is not going to be playing. ( He didn't mention AWB but a player who is only good in one function or position) So someone mentioned Fred as a right back in another post and it may work if Bielsa's theory is correct.
When you listen to his presentation you can see that everything that is wrong at United as per the way we play. He says a coach must believe in what he is doing on the pitch and he must show emotions on the pitch side. Otherwise no one will believe in you and what you are doing. He said football is an emotional game.
Link the video?
 

elmo

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I just saw an hour long tactical and formation talk by Bielsa. I did not know he was that good. It was just like the Johan Cruijjf talk on how football was played. 10 formations with the same players only and then he went on to chose the best way to play with the current available players. These players change formations during the match but it is the same 11 players. FBs, coming into CB positions, midfield positions and winger positions. CBs going into FB positions, and into midfield positions and midfield players doing the same. It is a sort of an axis they move in various stages of the game.
If he could get a decent team he will work wonders. Multifunctionality of players he wants. Every player has to be able to play in three positions during the game. Player who has the best two positions is chosen over a player who can do only one function best. He says that in practice they have to practice playing in these 3 positions every day. According to his theory AWB is not going to be playing. ( He didn't mention AWB but a player who is only good in one function or position) So someone mentioned Fred as a right back in another post and it may work if Bielsa's theory is correct.
When you listen to his presentation you can see that everything that is wrong at United as per the way we play. He says a coach must believe in what he is doing on the pitch and he must show emotions on the pitch side. Otherwise no one will believe in you and what you are doing. He said football is an emotional game.
Bielsa wouldn't last 3 weeks with us with all our pampered players and the board backing them.
 

Glideman

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Every training clip on the youtube channel has this same training routine, there's obviously more to the training sessions but they make it look like they do the same shit every day :lol:
Surely to be well drilled you need to do repetition? I doubt Beisla or other top coaches change the training routine every single day.
 

meamth

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Every training clip on the youtube channel has this same training routine, there's obviously more to the training sessions but they make it look like they do the same shit every day :lol:
Open training routines is always almost the same.
 

devilish

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https://www.transfermarkt.com/manchester-united/mitarbeiter/verein/985

Sir Alex was a giant in football. There was no manager of his generation (LVG, Lippi, Capello, you name it) who had the experience and brilliance the guy had. Yet he kept adding new blood to his team, people like Mclaren, Carlos, Smith and Rene who were clearly at the cusp of being more then just assistant managers. Ole on the other hand has this coaching staff. Take Phelan out and the experience of this coaching staff drops to this.

Ole - Molde-Cardiff
Carrick - None
Mckenna - Spurs U18-United U18
Dempsey - a couple of Norwegian clubs, Cardiff
Pert - Vancouver, Cardiff, Bahrain, FC Baniyas, Coventry, Watford, Fulham,
Blanco - 1 year with Benfica
Mawson - Burnley U18
Clegg - Sunderland
Hawkins - Sheffield United, West Brom

It's clearly not good enough especially at a club who lacks a sporting director and a football CEO.
 

Stretender

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There is no top class coaching at United. Only Ole fans will claim otherwise.

It is substandard and amateurish.

How he got one of the biggest jobs in football is a mystery to me.

There is a report in the media that players are getting fed up with his basic coaching. That could be closer to the truth and could explain why most of them seem to have given up.
 

DRJosh

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https://www.transfermarkt.com/manchester-united/mitarbeiter/verein/985

Sir Alex was a giant in football. There was no manager of his generation (LVG, Lippi, Capello, you name it) who had the experience and brilliance the guy had. Yet he kept adding new blood to his team, people like Mclaren, Carlos, Smith and Rene who were clearly at the cusp of being more then just assistant managers. Ole on the other hand has this coaching staff. Take Phelan out and the experience of this coaching staff drops to this.

Ole - Molde-Cardiff
Carrick - None
Mckenna - Spurs U18-United U18
Dempsey - a couple of Norwegian clubs, Cardiff
Pert - Vancouver, Cardiff, Bahrain, FC Baniyas, Coventry, Watford, Fulham,
Blanco - 1 year with Benfica
Mawson - Burnley U18
Clegg - Sunderland
Hawkins - Sheffield United, West Brom

It's clearly not good enough especially at a club who lacks a sporting director and a football CEO.
Spot on and one could even argue that Phelan is past his prime in terms of understanding current styles of play
 

My only Eric

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Every training clip on the youtube channel has this same training routine, there's obviously more to the training sessions but they make it look like they do the same shit every day :lol:
One day, I hope to see Jones on one of this videos.
 

Josep Dowling

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https://www.transfermarkt.com/manchester-united/mitarbeiter/verein/985

Sir Alex was a giant in football. There was no manager of his generation (LVG, Lippi, Capello, you name it) who had the experience and brilliance the guy had. Yet he kept adding new blood to his team, people like Mclaren, Carlos, Smith and Rene who were clearly at the cusp of being more then just assistant managers. Ole on the other hand has this coaching staff. Take Phelan out and the experience of this coaching staff drops to this.

Ole - Molde-Cardiff
Carrick - None
Mckenna - Spurs U18-United U18
Dempsey - a couple of Norwegian clubs, Cardiff
Pert - Vancouver, Cardiff, Bahrain, FC Baniyas, Coventry, Watford, Fulham,
Blanco - 1 year with Benfica
Mawson - Burnley U18
Clegg - Sunderland
Hawkins - Sheffield United, West Brom

It's clearly not good enough especially at a club who lacks a sporting director and a football CEO.
I am both shocked and appauled by that list of experience. No wonder we are going backwards.
 

gajender

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If Ole wants to be success then he needs to surround himself with experience rather then with his mates.
Sir Alex was successful because he was great not because of his assistants ,Ole can surround himself with the best support staff but unless he himself shows improvement he won't succeed with United we would just be delaying the inevitable.
 

devilish

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Sir Alex was successful because he was great not because of his assistants ,Ole can surround himself with the best support staff but unless he himself shows improvement he won't succeed with United we would just be delaying the inevitable.
Sir Alex himself said he needed his staff especially on tactics. The less experienced the manager is the more support he needs
 

Shiva87

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important game today to see what we have changed from last game. I strongly believe that he needs to find a way to bring VDB into the fold and give him some real game time.
 

Bilbo

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https://www.transfermarkt.com/manchester-united/mitarbeiter/verein/985

Sir Alex was a giant in football. There was no manager of his generation (LVG, Lippi, Capello, you name it) who had the experience and brilliance the guy had. Yet he kept adding new blood to his team, people like Mclaren, Carlos, Smith and Rene who were clearly at the cusp of being more then just assistant managers. Ole on the other hand has this coaching staff. Take Phelan out and the experience of this coaching staff drops to this.

Ole - Molde-Cardiff
Carrick - None
Mckenna - Spurs U18-United U18
Dempsey - a couple of Norwegian clubs, Cardiff
Pert - Vancouver, Cardiff, Bahrain, FC Baniyas, Coventry, Watford, Fulham,
Blanco - 1 year with Benfica
Mawson - Burnley U18
Clegg - Sunderland
Hawkins - Sheffield United, West Brom

It's clearly not good enough especially at a club who lacks a sporting director and a football CEO.
None of those men that Ferguson bought in had any sparkle on their CV's before he hired them. Walter Smith had a lot of experience and success with Rangers but aside from that the likes of Rene, Carlos, McClaren and Kidd had nothing of note on their CV's, and they can all be considered as failures in management after their time here.

I'm not knocking those guys. Just making a point that your list above doesn't really mean a great deal
 

GazTheLegend

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Great post.

Coaching is the buzz word in the Caf at the moment.

Everything can be improved by this mythical coaching, that apparently we are not doing.

It amuses me when I see posters stating things like “player x would be good if he was coached”. “If only we could actually coach the team property then we would be in xyz position”.
They have agendas and they need the team to fail now so they can be "right". I think that's more important to some caf posters than supporting the team and us winning these days. So busy hating the manager and the players they are absolutely incapable of admitting the GOOD things we do.
 
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None of those men that Ferguson bought in had any sparkle on their CV's before he hired them. Walter Smith had a lot of experience and success with Rangers but aside from that the likes of Rene, Carlos, McClaren and Kidd had nothing of note on their CV's, and they can all be considered as failures in management after their time here.

I'm not knocking those guys. Just making a point that your list above doesn't really mean a great deal
conversely, football has changed so much, that you can easily argue you want the younger guys, with ideas and the ability to relate to players now.

Think of young tech firms.

I’m not saying we don’t need experience, but it’s Certainly not everything. Otherwise, why wouldn’t we just hire a load of the old codgers who are doing the rounds as pundits?
 

FrankDrebin

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Every training clip on the youtube channel has this same training routine, there's obviously more to the training sessions but they make it look like they do the same shit every day :lol:
Christ, looking at the clip, we've got such a big squad. And not one world class player amongst them.
 

AndyMUFC

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The coaching may not be perfect but I think our recruitment strategy is the biggest problem.

We constantly have an unbalanced squad, and that has a knock on effect on our main players because the likes of Pogba, Martial and Rashford are very talented but very inconsistent.

Until we get it right off the pitch we’re gonna keep burning through managers. Guarantee it.
 
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Bilbo

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conversely, football has changed so much, that you can easily argue you want the younger guys, with ideas and the ability to relate to players now.

Think of young tech firms.

I’m not saying we don’t need experience, but it’s Certainly not everything. Otherwise, why wouldn’t we just hire a load of the old codgers who are doing the rounds as pundits?
Its a fair point.

I always get frustrated by the coaching angle of attack that our own fans use against us. Its low hanging fruit because nobody is qualified enough to actually back up their argument, or to counter it, and yes I know we can all call a film shit even though we arent directors etc, but even so its a soft target.
 

Ishdalar

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There is no top class coaching at United. Only Ole fans will claim otherwise.

It is substandard and amateurish.

How he got one of the biggest jobs in football is a mystery to me.

There is a report in the media that players are getting fed up with his basic coaching. That could be closer to the truth and could explain why most of them seem to have given up.
Under Moyes the players got fed up with his mindlessly crossing and losing mentality and gave up
Under LvG the players got fed up with his tight and creativity-starving game plan and gave up
Under Mourinho the players got fed up with his defensive mentality and confrontational attitude and gave up
Under Solskjaer the players are getting fed up with his basic coaching and seem to have given up

I don't know, call me crazy but I start to see a pattern there outside of the manager's control, and the players from Moyes era aren't the same playing this year, so maybe the main culprits are the only guys that have stayed in the club for the last 7 years.
 

Skills

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Under Moyes the players got fed up with his mindlessly crossing and losing mentality and gave up
Under LvG the players got fed up with his tight and creativity-starving game plan and gave up
Under Mourinho the players got fed up with his defensive mentality and confrontational attitude and gave up
Under Solskjaer the players are getting fed up with his basic coaching and seem to have given up

I don't know, call me crazy but I start to see a pattern there outside of the manager's control, and the players from Moyes era aren't the same playing this year, so maybe the main culprits are the only guys that have stayed in the club for the last 7 years.
Except for the fact 2 and 4 are complete made up lies. 1 and 3 may have some backing (especially Mourinho's tenure), but there was feck all suggesting the players gave up under Louis Van Gaal.
 

Ollie Derbyshire

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Coaching has to be one of our biggest issues, for some reason not matter which manager and/or players that have come in over the last 7/8 years, and to be fair the last couple of Fergies seasons, have been able to get us to play at a consistent level or with any visible team cohesion. It’s always just “let’s hope someone does something brilliant today” mentality.

Until we get in some world class coaches who have the same ‘philosophy’ of how to play football we will keep seeing the same amateur level displays interspersed with the odd good run. Even Fergie, one of the greatest ever managers relied on coaches like Kidd, McClaren, Quiroz, Muulensteen ect. All rubbish managers but world class coaches.

I don’t think Ole can do the coaching side himself and the coaches we currently have obviously can’t so bring some in who can.
 

sunama

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Ole - Molde-Cardiff
Carrick - None
Mckenna - Spurs U18-United U18
Dempsey - a couple of Norwegian clubs, Cardiff
Pert - Vancouver, Cardiff, Bahrain, FC Baniyas, Coventry, Watford, Fulham,
Blanco - 1 year with Benfica
Mawson - Burnley U18
Clegg - Sunderland
Hawkins - Sheffield United, West Brom
That's a pretty bad list.
That list would not be out of place in a club, which is mid-table and would explain why we rely on buying players who are in good form and have them play well to boost us up the table. And after a few months with the club, those players decline, requiring us to buy more players to boost us.
 

sunama

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Its a fair point.

I always get frustrated by the coaching angle of attack that our own fans use against us. Its low hanging fruit because nobody is qualified enough to actually back up their argument, or to counter it, and yes I know we can all call a film shit even though we arent directors etc, but even so its a soft target.
Given that almost all the players we buy go into decline, it is obvious that coaching is an issue.
The coaching is poor - anybody arguing against this would need to theorise why all our signings decline with the progression of time.
 

tenpoless

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https://www.transfermarkt.com/manchester-united/mitarbeiter/verein/985

Sir Alex was a giant in football. There was no manager of his generation (LVG, Lippi, Capello, you name it) who had the experience and brilliance the guy had. Yet he kept adding new blood to his team, people like Mclaren, Carlos, Smith and Rene who were clearly at the cusp of being more then just assistant managers. Ole on the other hand has this coaching staff. Take Phelan out and the experience of this coaching staff drops to this.

Ole - Molde-Cardiff
Carrick - None
Mckenna - Spurs U18-United U18
Dempsey - a couple of Norwegian clubs, Cardiff
Pert - Vancouver, Cardiff, Bahrain, FC Baniyas, Coventry, Watford, Fulham,
Blanco - 1 year with Benfica
Mawson - Burnley U18
Clegg - Sunderland
Hawkins - Sheffield United, West Brom

It's clearly not good enough especially at a club who lacks a sporting director and a football CEO.
What a depressing list. Outside of Mike Phelan, United was their first big job at coaching/management.
 

Irrational.

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United has no identity anymore. No clear plan.

We brought Moyes in, who didn't have it in him to succeed.

Then we brought in Van Gaal, whose football philosophy is the complete opposite of Moyes's. He then added a few players to fit in his philosophy.

Then we got Mourinho, whose football philosophy is the polar opposite of Van Gaals. He then proceeds to add players to fit his vision.

Now we have Ole whose philosophy differs completely from Mourinho. He then proceeds to add players to fit his vision.

Now we are left with a mixture of players bought for different reasons, that were bought for certain qualities to fit a certain managers vision. It also didn't help that we rarely got the managers first choice and got the second or third choice option instead. My uneducated guess is that's why we see a lot of inconsistency and lack of chemistry in our teams the past years.

A solution would be to hire a director of football that will stay in place in case a manager gets sacked. A Director of Football that follows a strategy to acquire players to fit a certain vision, and hire managers that can continue to expand upon that vision. That way if a manager is sacked, we wont have to start from scratch every time.
Like a restaurant which keeps changing head chef every couple of years and whose owner can't decide between British, Indian, Chinese or Lebanese cuisine. So we end up serving a fish and chip curry with noodles and a side order of falafel. Which is fecking disgusting.
 

golden_blunder

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Someone higher than Ed needs to sit back and think on this calmly and objectively. A successful club will bring them more dividends than a club struggling to make top 4.

so.. IF they aren’t gonna sell up anytime soon they need to change the structure. I would split it into 2 sections - 1 that deals with generating money from marketing, PR, sponsorships and merchandise etc. Ed would oversee this.

The 2nd section would be the football side. There would be a DoF reporting into a football man running it. My picks would be Ovemars as DoF and VDS as the head football man. They would choose the management team.

they also need to change the approach of hiring managers who are available or cheap to buy out of contracts as we have seen so far. If they identify the right person it should be because of their achievements, their history of development of young players, their playing style, their personality and their visions for the squad.
off course that will be easier if the structure was adjusted first.

we shouldn’t hire Poch just because he’s unemployed. Interview him objectively. Interview other people. May the best person win.

In the short-term I think he needs more experience in his team, someone like McClaren or Carlos Q. The latter might help with his languages. Though obviously shteeeve can speak the Dutch tooo
 

FrankDrebin

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Rojo will always be there, even when he's gone. Standing amongst the team. Like a blue ghostly guardian spirit . Laughing at a game of tippy-tappy.
 

Jaxa

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Every training clip on the youtube channel has this same training routine, there's obviously more to the training sessions but they make it look like they do the same shit every day :lol:
Not sure what's worse, the passing or Telles top knot, surely the top knot has to go down as one of the worst hairstyles ever doesn't it ?
 

Dembeza

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devilish

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None of those men that Ferguson bought in had any sparkle on their CV's before he hired them. Walter Smith had a lot of experience and success with Rangers but aside from that the likes of Rene, Carlos, McClaren and Kidd had nothing of note on their CV's, and they can all be considered as failures in management after their time here.

I'm not knocking those guys. Just making a point that your list above doesn't really mean a great deal
Archie Knox was player manager at Forfar before joining Sir Alex at Aberdeen. He then became Dundee's manager, a role he covered for 2 and half years before joining Sir Alex again, this time round at United.

Prior of joining us Brian Kidd was a coach at Barrow and then he moved in management at Preston North End. He spent 3 years in the youth academy before becoming Man United's no 2

Steve Mclaren was youth and reserve coach with Oxford. In 1995 He became Jim Smith's no 2 at Derby were they gained EPL promotion during their first year there. Mclaren was considered one of the most promising and innovative no 2 at the time having introduced elements such as video analysis and sports psychology in the EPL.

Prior of joining us, Jimmy Ryan served as Luton's reserve manager and manager. He served as United's reserve manager for around a decade only to be given a first team coach role. He served as an assistant manager during two transitional periods ie between Kidd and Mclaren and between Mclaren and Queroz.

Carlos Queiroz - prior of joining us, Carlos had already various managerial roles including Portugal U17, Portugal U20 and Portugal, Sporting Lisbon, Metrostars, Nagoya Grampus Eight, the UAE national team and South Africa national team.

Walter Smith managed Rangers, Everton and Scotland prior joining us, winning a couple of SPL leagues in the process.

Prior of joining our centre of excellence in 1999, Phelan had already served as Megson's no 2 at Norwich, Blackpool and Stockport. After two years he was promoted as first team coach and in 2008 he was promoted as assistant manager following Carlos departure.

So we had 5 former managers (Knox, Smith, Carlos Q , Ryan and Kidd (Brian was a transitional manager)) and two people who already had experience as assistant managers (Mclaren and Phelan) prior joining us. We can safely say that all of these people have far better CVs then Carrick