Rado_N
Yaaas Broncos!
I’m sure there’s some people who’ve said in here they’ve watched this without having seen BB, right? Which is just weird.
I'm not reading this thread because I'm only 4 eps in but do I love this series. I'm not sure I'd have been able to get into it without watching BB, though. Can't think of anything better on TV.I’m sure there’s some people who’ve said in here they’ve watched this without having seen BB, right? Which is just weird.
Yea, I think I differ on the lab storyline and Mike's character arc within BCS also. I saw BB in its OG run and have seen it once since then as well, in my top 5 shows of all time but I really did not need a whole arc around the making of the lab. At best some nod to it in a singular episode would have worked for me. Mike's character beats are basically an expanded version of "Criminal with Honour" motif. We already saw that part in BB, especially with his relationship with Jessie in S4, which is reflected again in his relationship with Nacho. I found his back story arcs in S1 much more interesting than any of the work he does with Gus with some kind of self imposed code that does not really make a difference in the end.Yeah the lab stuff is a good example really. I actually liked that - It’s incredibly well done, and adds some interesting stuff to Mike’s character and the BB World - but it’s supplementary material. Im very aware that I was more patient with it because I knew what it was, and if you hadnt watched BB (I dunno why you’d be watching this if you hadn’t, but lets just say) you’d probably be incredibly frustrated with why we were spending so much energy on it and end up thinking “So, what was all that ultimately for then?” It does kinda pay off with Lalo, but this show will never show us what this thing actually is and why it’s so important.
It’d be like having a very engrossing and dramatic half season arc about the tragic previous owner of the RV, who we eventually find out left the ashes of Heul’s former partner in the glove compartment… Cool. But, like, why are we supposed to care about this RV? And couldn’t this have just been a really good bottle episode?
Again, none of this is saying BCS isn’t great, but I don’t personally think it can ever be called better than BB, because so much of it’s enjoyment is derived from building on things BB introduced and made you care about. You can’t really watch it properly without having seen that (again, why would you?) but you can watch BB on its own merit. Even all the really rich stuff about Gus & the cartels is done in a couple of flashbacks in BB, with them killing his lover. Nothing in 2 and a half seasons of BCS is really as impactful as that. It’s just very nicely made tension.
It’s hard to make these points without seeming to rag on the show, when I do think it’s largely excellent and the faults are just basically baked into it & they’ve done almost as well as could possibly have been done with a prequel that has so many BB characters in it. Other than just not have so many BB characters in it, I guess? But then, would we care as much? Questions questions…
He won an award for it recently and I was thinking, has he actually won it for the this? Or is it for the general character of Gus Fring? Cos he’s just kind of in this. Existing… for 3 seasons…You captured why I am indifferent to Gus storyline though since there is absolutely no pay off to anything within this show. Heck they don't even expand on Gus' origin story so that you get more context on the beginning of his relationship with cartel.
Esposito won the Hollywood critic association award which were a bit of charity if you ask me given BCS itself "tied" with succession for drama award for "cable" shows whilst they had different categories for broadcast and streaming. Still I agree that it was a bit preposterous to award him for BCS, he should have won the Emmy for supporting actor for BB S4 ahead of Paul.He won an award for it recently and I was thinking, has he actually won it for the this? Or is it for the general character of Gus Fring? Cos he’s just kind of in this. Existing… for 3 seasons…
As you rightly point out, Mike is basically just repeating his arc over and over again - as is essentially Jimmy/Saul - but at least it is an arc, and you could quite plausibly say that Walt and Jesse repeated the same basic learning curves several times throughout BB…. And they did at least have a beginning and end. Gus has a beginning and end too, but they’re ALSO both in BB! So he’s just…. There, in this. Being kind of cool.
And anyone who says the little scene we got of him reflecting over a glass of wine and a brief bit of flirting is a better bit of character drama that teaches us more about him than seeing him meet the cartel, watch his lover die, and then risk his life for an immaculately plotted revenge against them all, years in the making, all in one episode is - let’s be honest - a massive lying ponce.
Hmm I don't agree with this. But then I am possibly the outlier who does not like the cartel stuff. I think Chuck's relationship with Jimmy is even more pivotal for the series than his relationship with Kim. Essentially the core question it poses is the age old one of nurture vs nature. Chuck believed Jimmy's very nature would always land him in some trouble one way or another. Someone else could argue (many fans do) that this kind of rigid thinking and specifically Chuck's inability to accept Jimmy as his equal played the pivotal role in his evolution to Saul. Initially I myself though the series was making the latter argument but ultimately I believe the series either willingly or otherwise makes the former.Yeah, Chuck's storyline is easily the worst part of the show. It doesn't help that he is not likeable at all, in hindsight if he was more likeable guy with tinfoil problem then he could be more interesting. But he was absolute robot.
The problem is they changed their minds about the show a bunch of times.It’s hard to make these points without seeming to rag on the show, when I do think it’s largely excellent and the faults are just basically baked into it & they’ve done almost as well as could possibly have been done with a prequel that has so many BB characters in it. Other than just not have so many BB characters in it, I guess? But then, would we care as much? Questions questions…
The Mike/cartel stuff is less satisfying because it's really, at its root, "jobs for people we know."In the early days, we talked about, “Yeah, he’ll be Jimmy for a while, but obviously, you can’t do a bait-and-switch with the audience! You can’t sell them a bill of goods. You’ve gotta give them Saul Goodman.” And damned if we didn’t wind up doing it! We did not start out that way to be perverse or mischievous. I think it finally dawned on us — but that thing about us only seeing two inches in front of our noses, that really holds true when you’re breaking a story like this. I think we finally came to realize that we know what Saul Goodman looks like. You saw him on a great many episodes of Breaking Bad, so we didn’t need to tell that story again, and we had all this really interesting story. We were fascinated by Jimmy McGill, by what would turn a guy like that, who’s basically a good guy, into a bad guy. And then we wanted to see more of Gene Takovic in Omaha, so we kind of ran out the clock without even meaning to, and then we realized, man, the first thing that could go was Saul Goodman. And that’s the name of the show!
Great analysis, I love BCS, but I think you’ve made some good points that I hadn’t really thought of.It definitely isn’t. I’ve never really got people saying that. And no one really does in the wider cultural landscape. It’s more of an “acshully guys” opinion… and I can sort of understand it in isolation. It is after all a largely much better made show, considering it’s produced by exactly the same people, all operating at a higher game than they were at the start of BB, and with more nuanced writing, but it also doesn’t really have any dynamic urgency about its storytelling on the whole..
BB, for example, had 5 very distinct seasons where you could not just point to the different arcs and tone of each one, but to the progression of each of the characters, whereas watching BCS is more like stewing in that world for a bit. Each season is kind of the same (at least until the last one) and Jimmy/Saul is relatively the same character throughout. You could’ve ended it after season 1 and it wouldn’t seem weird that Saul in BB was how he was. If anything the changes (which have been good outside of that context) have only made it weirder, as he’s mostly just flit between 70% Saul and 90% Saul at different points up until now, and even Kim’s descent only really kicks in S4 (it’s really about her, or his affect on her, if you’re looking for progression)
You got the Chuck stuff at the beginning and the Lalo stuff at the end to give it some identity and personality but it’s rather meandering by design. I can’t really remember what happened in the middle, and couldn’t point to “that moment in S2 or S3” for example as something to signpost it’s highlights. It does all build to a good final season crescendo, but a lot of it before then feels like a Breaking Bad VR experience at times.
Though weirdly unlike a lot of people I kinda like the weird stuff they’re doing at the end. It helps give it something to distinguish it. It’s bold, even if it’s a bit odd and slow so far (the show is slow. You’ve just gotta get over that. it is what it is.) Which was actually my only real gripe with how BB ended - that it was a relatively conventional finale for all the mad shit that happened before.
BCS is still a great show, but only an all time great on a mostly technical level.
It would be interesting to see if anyone watched this without seeing BB, and whether this last stretch makes any sense at all…
Yeah, me too. They ran out of good ideas in the last 4 episodes.Horrible ending to an outstanding series. Hated the last minute u-turn.
One of the best shows ever made. Slightly better than Breaking Bad, definitely better written.Is this worth a try?
How so?One of the best shows ever made. Slightly better than Breaking Bad, definitely better written.
Horrible ending to an outstanding series. Hated the last minute u-turn.
Peak Caf right here.Really enjoyed the finale
My opinions (outside of football of course) are always pretty garbage. But after being a bit meh about the last few episodes, I really loved the confession, and the shedding of Saul and the embracement of Jimmy. I can see why it’s had a mixed reception thoughPeak Caf right here.
Whilst amusingly I used this scene only yesterday as an example of BCS not quite chiming with BB, I am glad they didn’t try and ‘retcon’ it… or try and make Saul a bit more consistent. That would’ve been cheap. He is definitely playing Saul from that era, for better or Ill. Which is consistent, in an inconsistent kinda way.yeah, this a is far more of a ‘problem’ continuity wise than the age or out of place-ness of Jesse IMO… the progression to this simmering sociopathic Saul works with how we’ve left him in prequel BCS timeline, but it doesn’t remotely chime with the intervening 4 years of outwardly breezy and cowardly under pressure Saul from Breaking Bad
The last time we see him in that, he’s slinking away from a confrontation with a defeated and dying Walt… the BCS Saul would’ve at least used the opportunity for a bit of verbal grandstanding. Which has always been a bit of a baked in problem for the show, as the lead started it as a mostly identical version of the character
This is pretty much how I felt too… though I didn’t hate BBs, I just felt it was a pretty conventional box ticking finale. This wasn’t. Which is kind of why I’ve quite enjoyed the whole Gene thing. Whilst the Lalo-Gus showdown was great, it was very much in the comfort zone of an episode of Breaking Bad. It made a lot more sense for a show that was often lauded/criticised (including by me) as a much slower character piece, to end with a much slower character piece!Not sure how i feel about the ending, anticlimactic yet it feels right? Interestingly I hated the BB ending which didn’t seem anticlimactic but wasn’t fitting imo.
This is pretty much how I felt too… though I didn’t hate BBs, I just felt it was a pretty conventional box ticking finale. This wasn’t. Which is kind of why I’ve quite enjoyed the whole Gene thing. Whilst the Lalo-Gus showdown was great, it was very much in the comfort zone of an episode of Breaking Bad. It made a lot more sense for a show that was often lauded/criticised (including by me) as a much slower character piece, to end with a much slower character piece!
I think Felina as BB finale episode has just too much crammed in a single episode for it to have the desired impact. BB's individual episodes were not fast paced as some remember it to be and for any other episode only one event out of - Machine gun climax, Lydia poisoning, Ransom heist - would have been enough and would have drawn better tension. BB also had its own version of character piece based climax in Granite State where Walt also comes close to turning himself to Police before his pride gets in the way again.Not sure how i feel about the ending, anticlimactic yet it feels right? Interestingly I hated the BB ending which didn’t seem anticlimactic but wasn’t fitting imo.
It is a little slow but I think if you stick with it you can get very invested and there is a far better supporting cast than BB on a whole.How so?
I'm generally not a TV kinda of guy, is it worth going through 60 something episodes for?
I mostly enjoyed bb even thought I watched it sporadically .
In retrospect, I do not like the whole Gene story. It is devoid of any inspiration and did not need to drag that long because they did not really have a good story to tell. But most of all, it was unrealistic and out of character.
Jimmy was a con artist, he could talk to anyone. He was able to find a proper job and he was not hiding, he worked in a mall. In real life, such a person would have a girlfriend (or two!) and he would have fun, he would not live as a recluse, there was no reason for that. It wouldn't be hard for him to rent a nice little condo with his girlfriend, and make new friends, and go to Las Vegas for some fun, and enjoy his life. Nothing flashy, a middle class life.
Thanks, I'll give it a go, bob odenkirk is usually great so I'm guessing he's done a good job in this one as well.It is a little slow but I think if you stick with it you can get very invested and there is a far better supporting cast than BB on a whole.
By the time I got to the 3rd season I think it had become my favourite show without me really realising it.
They established in BB itself that Saul had to go in hiding due to the consequences of Hank's death and Walt's operation getting blown up. That combined with his mild popularity as an attorney with TV ads, meant he had to keep a low profile to avoid getting caught. Also the Gene period was only a few months post Felina I believe, so there was no time for Jimmy/Saul to establish a proper life there yet. He is purposely shown to still very paranoid that he would be caught to start over in that fashion again.In retrospect, I do not like the whole Gene story. It is devoid of any inspiration and did not need to drag that long because they did not really have a good story to tell. But most of all, it was unrealistic and out of character.
Jimmy was a con artist, he could talk to anyone. He was able to find a proper job and he was not hiding, he worked in a mall. In real life, such a person would have a girlfriend (or two!) and he would have fun, he would not live as a recluse, there was no reason for that. It wouldn't be hard for him to rent a nice little condo with his girlfriend, and make new friends, and go to Las Vegas for some fun, and enjoy his life. Nothing flashy, a middle class life.
But then, BCS would not have this moralistic ending. It seems to me that the only reason for the Gene story is that Jimmy had to confess and go to prison forever. Which itself was silly, especially the way they did it. He did not save Kim. He did not really help anyone by going to prison forever instead of 7 years. All the killers and the dealers were already dead. So, why did he do it? Only to punish himself because he has been a ***BAD BOY***? The garbage bin, the old lady screaming "you are a bad man"!... Way too moralistic in my opinion.
They established in BB itself that Saul had to go in hiding due to the consequences of Hank's death and Walt's operation getting blown up. That combined with his mild popularity as an attorney with TV ads, meant he had to keep a low profile to avoid getting caught. Also the Gene period was only a few months post Felina I believe, so there was no time for Jimmy/Saul to establish a proper life there yet. He is purposely shown to still very paranoid that he would be caught to start over in that fashion again.
Yes, of course. But since he was able to get a proper job, and as a manager not as a janitor, it means he had already established a new identity, with SSN and everything. He was working in a mall, he was not hiding. He could easily get a girlfriend.
On the other hand, if he was still scared and paranoid, there was no reason to get involved with the stealing identities stuff. He was angry they wasted "all that preparation" on the guy with cancer. Then this whole plotline (which is important because it led to his demise) is even more meaningless. He did not have enough time to establish a simple middle class life, but he had enough time to establish a stealing identities enterprise, without any prior background on that. It doesn't make sense. For me it is just bad writing.