Imagine caring whether someone capitalises Black people and not white people.
Film Black Panther
- Thread starter bucky
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
Imagine making that assumption. Oh wait, you already did.
Are there hints of Fantastic Four in the film? Guess Marvel could start with that, small teases with nothing explicit.
If you didn’t care why did you point it out?
Seems completely unnecessary and pedantic.
Because as I said, it looked weird to me. You will also note that I said it's no big deal.
And I'm very pedantic.
Coulda gave a shout out to Brown people or Mixed race people too, their capitalisation matters also.
But at least you recognise your pedantry, I can respect that
If I see someone saying 'White' or 'Brown' mid sentence I will absolutely query that, too. Consistency is my middle name. One of them, anyway. The other is Basil.
I think this is a pretty good summary of the film, and the most important line in your post is about normalising black people - which is where most of the hype is coming from.
If you haven't seen the movie yet, but your expectations are based around the amount of hype - I would say it's important to understand that the narrative around the hype isn't that it's going to be the best Marvel movie now, or ever - but the hype is around the normalisation of black people, giving an alternative perspective on Africa and African culture & traditions, and not ridiculing it.
I don't think Black Panther the best Marvel film.
In terms of pure entertainment or humour there are really good alternatives; Avengers, Ragnarok, Guardians - BP follows a similar methodology but it's a different pace.
I wasn't expecting it to be as funny or entertaining as some others because they have either multiple movies - therefore better character development, or they have more main characters with their own individual stories & motives - therefore you have a bigger variety.
In this, almost every character is centered around BP's storyline with the exception of Killmonger (great villain btw, I also approve his shirtless scene) but going forward, I would hope to see more of Shuri's character develop, and there's room for growth for others too - Okoye is fantastic.
As an character intro film, it's been wonderful - a real pleasure.
The humour could've been better, or at least less forced - but again I think that will come with time and interaction with the characters.
The fight scenes in the beginning were good, but towards the end definitely could've been better.
As an African - I'm just happy to see African culture, fashion, tradition, language, hairstyles, family, heritage, intellect, art etc all this variety so well represented.
I'm just happy that the African perspective isn't the butt of the jokes, Africa isn't portrayed as only one dimensional - and the streets of Wakanda were so markedly similar - it's the most modern country in the Marvel Universe, but the markets still look similar to the Markets in Accra in Ghana, with the hanging baskets, and the shop keepers sat outside with a range of colour and vibrance all around.
It's just small things like that, that to me - make this movie special, because I can relate to it. That almost never happens.
I thought it was largely really good. Probably top tier of the Marvel films. But not transcendent as an actual film* in the way Dark Knight or Logan was. It’s still very noticeably a Marvel film, with all the trappings that entails. Objectively it’s probably Coogler’s weakest, which isn’t a criticism so much as an admiration for how high his bar is. He’s certainly a wunderkind. Like Damien Chazelle without the pretention or problematic white jazz hang ups.
Positives:
Not just one, but two good villains! For Marvel that basically guarantees it being top 3 by default. I can kinda see why some people are underwhelmed by Jordan, what with all the hype surrounding his character, and in truth he doesn’t actually do an awful lot other than exude magnetism and wear a couple of really cool jackets, but his motivation works, and that’s half the battle with villains. Serkis is clearly having the more fun.
In fact the film’s biggest strength is just how many characters is manages to imbue with rounded personalities and motivations. As lots of reviews have noted, it’s less about ‘The Black Panther’ as it is Wakanda itself, and it feels like it.
Also it deals with its themes pretty well. Sure it’s fairly broad but it’s still more nuanced than a Superhero film needs to be.
Negatives:
Lots of dodgy CGI and weightless floaty Matrix fights. Par for the course at this point really, but still a little tacky for me.
Also for something so feted for its unique visual stylings, I found a lot of the big set peices rather uninspired. The Black SUV chase through a nondescript Asian marketplace and wide open plain LOTR/Narnia battle, for example. Even the final boss fight in the over CG’d plot device train tracks reminded me more of TRON than anything. Which was a shame considering how good the earlier fight between those characters was.
Story wise it was pretty tight, but there was a glaring beat missing in the 3rd act, where....
But, you know, it’s a silly comic book movie, and certainly one of the better ones. Even without it’s culturally important accoutrements.
* (it’ll obviously be transcendent as a cultural zeitgeist event picture. But those type of things don’t always have to be the best movies. And often aren’t *cough Star Wars cough*)
Positives:
Not just one, but two good villains! For Marvel that basically guarantees it being top 3 by default. I can kinda see why some people are underwhelmed by Jordan, what with all the hype surrounding his character, and in truth he doesn’t actually do an awful lot other than exude magnetism and wear a couple of really cool jackets, but his motivation works, and that’s half the battle with villains. Serkis is clearly having the more fun.
In fact the film’s biggest strength is just how many characters is manages to imbue with rounded personalities and motivations. As lots of reviews have noted, it’s less about ‘The Black Panther’ as it is Wakanda itself, and it feels like it.
Also it deals with its themes pretty well. Sure it’s fairly broad but it’s still more nuanced than a Superhero film needs to be.
Negatives:
Lots of dodgy CGI and weightless floaty Matrix fights. Par for the course at this point really, but still a little tacky for me.
Also for something so feted for its unique visual stylings, I found a lot of the big set peices rather uninspired. The Black SUV chase through a nondescript Asian marketplace and wide open plain LOTR/Narnia battle, for example. Even the final boss fight in the over CG’d plot device train tracks reminded me more of TRON than anything. Which was a shame considering how good the earlier fight between those characters was.
Story wise it was pretty tight, but there was a glaring beat missing in the 3rd act, where....
rather than learn anything new or struggle through some adversity to gain the wisdom/know how/etc to finally vanquish his foe!... He just wakes up and decides to have another pop at it. Can’t help but feel there was some character growth in there at some point.
But, you know, it’s a silly comic book movie, and certainly one of the better ones. Even without it’s culturally important accoutrements.
* (it’ll obviously be transcendent as a cultural zeitgeist event picture. But those type of things don’t always have to be the best movies. And often aren’t *cough Star Wars cough*)
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You're gosh darn right there is
It's a very fun film, it's got some glaring, flatly lit, rubbery CGI flaws that might keep it from being Capital G 'Great' but in the scheme of things they're not such a big deal. I suspect the hundreds of special effects people were told to prioritise Infinity War which might explain a few things.
Martin Freeman's absolutely rubbish character needs to get launched into outer space forever though.
Martin Freeman's absolutely rubbish character needs to get launched into outer space forever though.
I was actually really surprised at just how much screen time he got. Of all the “wider Marvel Universe POV characters” to use in that role, why “Martin Freeman as nondescript bland spook 476” was the go to is anyone’s guess.
@Mockney
Re: your spoiler
Re: your spoiler
yeah I definitely agree. The pacing was completely off by then - I felt it could've definitely been split into two movies.
Killmonger's motive was legitimate, I actually thought he was right. T'Chaka's actions and the repercussions of it should've been delved into a lot more.
Plus it was so obvious that T'Challa was very weak without his BP ability, which is completely at odds with the rest of the Marvel universe - i.e. in Spiderman, Tony telling him 'if you are nothing without your suit, then you shouldn't have it', Thor without his Hammer in Ragnarok etc - there definitely should've been more character development, a period of growth and realisation, self-reflection and all that other cliche stuff they put in movies.
Finally, Killmonger just kinda went from 0-100 within maybe a week? I didn't understand the urgency. He's worked his entire life to become King and within a day he just starts shooting Vibranium to the rest of the world?
It didn't even sound like he really understood the full breadth of it's power, or how it's used, or how it could be used - surely he, and the spies would've needed the intelligence of Shuri and the rest of the techies to actually make the most of it?
His aim went from 'improving the lives of the oppressed' to 'colonise the world' very quickly too.
Killmonger's motive was legitimate, I actually thought he was right. T'Chaka's actions and the repercussions of it should've been delved into a lot more.
Plus it was so obvious that T'Challa was very weak without his BP ability, which is completely at odds with the rest of the Marvel universe - i.e. in Spiderman, Tony telling him 'if you are nothing without your suit, then you shouldn't have it', Thor without his Hammer in Ragnarok etc - there definitely should've been more character development, a period of growth and realisation, self-reflection and all that other cliche stuff they put in movies.
Finally, Killmonger just kinda went from 0-100 within maybe a week? I didn't understand the urgency. He's worked his entire life to become King and within a day he just starts shooting Vibranium to the rest of the world?
It didn't even sound like he really understood the full breadth of it's power, or how it's used, or how it could be used - surely he, and the spies would've needed the intelligence of Shuri and the rest of the techies to actually make the most of it?
His aim went from 'improving the lives of the oppressed' to 'colonise the world' very quickly too.
Am I a ranga or a Ranga? Or rather former ranga or Ranga as the grey/white has moderated the issue?
Bangeranga
I understand his character's place in the story as the embodiment of the outside world-America in particular-for the Wakandan characters to react to, but he's so white bread that it doesn't work as well as it could. If he was a nebbish, casually racist, Dave Chappelle-doing-a-white-guy voice like the character he's actually based on that would have worked, and Freeman can probably do that. Or they could have cast someone else and stuck a literal cowboy hat on his head and made him like one of those James Bond Americans. Less white bread, more this:
Daniel Kaluuya is the real villain. What a fecking turncoat.
Yeah, all of that. As you say, by the 3rd act the pacing went to shit as it was sort of scrambling to fit itself into the Marvel movie template. And all the things that need to happen therein.
I mean you could plausibly argue that...
by trying to convince M’Baku (easily the break out character of the film, btw) to join them in the battle, he realises it’s macro implications and the benefits of interdependency yadadadada, but it’s a stretch as it doesn’t involve any legwork. And he kind of realised that before then anyway, and that scene is more of a thematic signpost.
Still, Michael B Jordan wears the hell out of them jackets.
It was almost like they (Marvel) felt they should give him something heroic to do so the whiteys didn’t feel left out. But as you say, it just makes him kinda pointless.
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Just got back from seeing it, thought it was good but not great. The plot was about as shallow as certain character's allegiances, the CGI was simultaneously too much and yet not very good and the action sequences were all a little vanilla. I thought the actors were all great, but Michael B. Jordan deserved to be a far better villain.
Overall, I think the concept was revolutionary but the plot was nothing groundbreaking. I'm glad it was made though, for reasons @vi1lain listed above. If a movie can have such a positive effect on people's self-identity then let's make more like it please. Either way more films for sure need to happen in Africa- wonderful place, wonderful cultures, wonderful people.
RE: @Mockney 's Spiderman spoiler:
Overall, I think the concept was revolutionary but the plot was nothing groundbreaking. I'm glad it was made though, for reasons @vi1lain listed above. If a movie can have such a positive effect on people's self-identity then let's make more like it please. Either way more films for sure need to happen in Africa- wonderful place, wonderful cultures, wonderful people.
RE: @Mockney 's Spiderman spoiler:
Stark's 'if you're nothing without your suit...' line is hilarious if you consider Stark really is nothing without his suit. He doesn't have superpowers like Spidey, nor the martial arts of a Batman or Black Widow. I doubt he could fight his way out of a paper bag without his suit and shoe lifts.
They’re going to have to find a way to use him more prominently in the sequel, what with his star rising considerably since. Which will be interesting, as I’m not sure there was an awful lot more to that character. He’s certainly not anyone important from the comics.
They might just have to pretend he is. Or claim he was actually really someone else all along!
He’s come a long way from Tealeaf and Parking Pataweyo has our Daniel.
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Same. It's a fictitious accent based on African accents. Obviously, it's not gonna be 100%. That's the point.
Well, tbf they do all speak suspiciously good English considering it's a country that has never been colonised and has no contact with the outside world.
Just came back after watching it. Class movie, but only a popcorn entertainer. I'd say it deserves something like 70% score on Rotten Tomatoes but the politics around it has elevated it to universal acclaim.
Acting is its' greatest strength. Letitia knocked it out of the park as Shuri. I have only seen her in Black Mirror's Black Museum episode where she was about adequate (Douglas Hodge stole the show there), but here, she shows considerable acting chops.
Jordan was good as Killmonger, but I felt the script didn't give him a chance to express himself fully. His role was too brief and too abruptly developed IMO, which is a pity. Same goes for Andy Serkis, he was brilliant in his almost cameo sized role. Though I kept expecting him to end his sentences with "My Preciousss"
Storywise, it is pretty ordinary. Regarding this,
Overall, solid 7/10 for me. Not a boring moment, but not better than Thor Ragnarok for sure.
Acting is its' greatest strength. Letitia knocked it out of the park as Shuri. I have only seen her in Black Mirror's Black Museum episode where she was about adequate (Douglas Hodge stole the show there), but here, she shows considerable acting chops.
Jordan was good as Killmonger, but I felt the script didn't give him a chance to express himself fully. His role was too brief and too abruptly developed IMO, which is a pity. Same goes for Andy Serkis, he was brilliant in his almost cameo sized role. Though I kept expecting him to end his sentences with "My Preciousss"
Storywise, it is pretty ordinary. Regarding this,
Killmonger vs T'Challa is just Magneto vs Prof Charles in a racial background. Simple as.
Overall, solid 7/10 for me. Not a boring moment, but not better than Thor Ragnarok for sure.
Or you could say Malcolm vs MLK which was the basis.
I would definitely temper your expectations. Based on the hype I was expecting something really outstanding. As it is, it’s just a decent marvel movie. You’ll enjoy it a lot more if you don’t expect as much from it.
It doesn’t sound silly to say representation matters, because interpretations of race in popular culture continues to shape generations. In this country (USA), it’s still almost impossible to find a black woman sporting her natural hair to be promoted in the media. I know that’s an odd example, but little things like that shapes generations of kids that grow up thinking kinky or nappy hair is ugly. So I particularly enjoyed the scene when the character made fun of the wig she had to wear.
My wife and all her female friends are going to see this. I know for a fact she’s going to be bored off her tits, because she doesn’t like action, sci-fi, fantasy or comics, but I don’t expect her to admit it - because there’s a lot of black pride attached to this movie. And rightly so.
The only thing is......as someone who doesn’t have that emotive, cultural, identity construction attachment to the film, I still have to say it was objectively very average when judged purely on its theatrical merits. Great cultural landmark, but average movie in my very humble opinion.
I hope you take this in the spirit intended because I respect how much the film meant to you.
I can barely recall anything impressive he did. You basically could’ve boiled his entire plot down to about 5 minutes and not lost a thing.
Hopefully that’s satirical.
The cgi was very bad at times, excellent at others. The rubbery fights looked like some rubbish from the matrix sequels.
That was my initial take too. But at a time when black people in this country have to tolerate a racist president, I think it’s understandable the amount of pride and unification of black culture this has brought. Not just understandable, but heart warming. We are starting to see black people mobilize culturally in a way that’s having an impact on geopolitics in this country. It was black women who ultimately won Alabama for the Democrats with their preposterously high turnout of over 90%.
I'm African, disagree completely. People out here acting like this is like Obama getting elected.
It's just a shitty Marvel film with black people in it - perspective is needed.
I agree it’s not a great movie, but it’s also a great thing for young black kids to see people of their likeness heralded as heroes and leaders on screen. And most importantly, not in a watered down mainstream way.
Honestly, thought his character was pretty shit. Yeah I got why he did what he did, but he was so half hearted about it all. Sort of half arsed turned evil, than half arsed turned back at the end.
Here are my issues with the movie:
- What was the point of the Serkis character and that whole set up? Killmonger could’ve just killed him and brought him to Wakanda. Rest was a waste of time.
- Killmonger character wasn’t developed at all. Time would have been better spent showing his struggle and pain growing up to deepen empathy with the character.
- Why didn’t the king take child Eric with him? No explanation was provided. Just a sort of “oops, my mistake.”
- The CGI was terrible at times.
- what was the point of Martin Freeman?
- How come the General was so loyal to the throne, but then just decides at the end to turn on the king? Because he didn’t continue the challenge? But surely T’Chala showing up in a bio-mechanical panther suit is a violation of the challenge ritual anyway? I’m sure if they’d gone back to the fighting pool, Jordan would’ve kicked the shit out of him again. As he easily defeated him the first time. So clearly it was just a plot device.
- Killmonger waited his entire life to become king but then had a plan which unraveled in about 8 minutes.
- What does Vibranium actually do? For someone who hasn’t read the comics, that wasn’t clear at all. How did it help propel their technology to unprecedented levels, hundreds of years before the rest of the world? Is it sentient?
- Final act is a fecking mess. Just a generic, paint by numbers, mess.
On the plus side:
- The score was good.
- The scenery was good.
- The acting was good.
- The sister (Suri?) was the highlight of the movie.
- Michael B. Jordan is a cool mofo, with an almost perfect body.
- Tons of gorgeous African women celebrated in their natural glory.
- Killmonger character wasn’t developed at all. Time would have been better spent showing his struggle and pain growing up to deepen empathy with the character.
- Why didn’t the king take child Eric with him? No explanation was provided. Just a sort of “oops, my mistake.”
- The CGI was terrible at times.
- what was the point of Martin Freeman?
- How come the General was so loyal to the throne, but then just decides at the end to turn on the king? Because he didn’t continue the challenge? But surely T’Chala showing up in a bio-mechanical panther suit is a violation of the challenge ritual anyway? I’m sure if they’d gone back to the fighting pool, Jordan would’ve kicked the shit out of him again. As he easily defeated him the first time. So clearly it was just a plot device.
- Killmonger waited his entire life to become king but then had a plan which unraveled in about 8 minutes.
- What does Vibranium actually do? For someone who hasn’t read the comics, that wasn’t clear at all. How did it help propel their technology to unprecedented levels, hundreds of years before the rest of the world? Is it sentient?
- Final act is a fecking mess. Just a generic, paint by numbers, mess.
On the plus side:
- The score was good.
- The scenery was good.
- The acting was good.
- The sister (Suri?) was the highlight of the movie.
- Michael B. Jordan is a cool mofo, with an almost perfect body.
- Tons of gorgeous African women celebrated in their natural glory.
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I didn’t really like the whole magic nano-suit thing. That was a bit naff. But Latitia’s lab was cool. A lot of the Afro-inspired design aspects like that were great. If anything I wanted to see more of that, especially in the technology, cos it all kind of defaults to “shiny metallic shwooshy blue laser thingy” in these films. So the more of those kind of touches, the better. That’s why I wasn’t super keen on the final boss battle in the TRON landscape.
I enjoyed it but thought it was hugely overrated. I'd put it towards the bottom of the list of Marvel films - I saw it ranked as high as second, which is ridiculous IMO.
Gonna see ot bow. I expect the good reviews are a bit SJW inspired, but excited anyway :-)
For all those (even in this thread) who are trying to gain some political/racial insight out of that movie, this review nails it on the head. Its' a PG 13 movie that should be enjoyed without breaking one's head over its' political or racial message.
I love it when youtube reviewers with the most cartoonishly nerdy voices rant about nerds getting worked up whilst throwing in some swearing every other sentence.
Adum's pretty good though, he's not all swearing without substance. He's got good taste, the only reviewer I have actually followed for years and even spoken with on twitter. Got introduced to some good stuff through his reviews.
He's got a point about Black Panther, though it was more entertaining than he gave credit for.
Or you know...People have differing opinions
Not sure how I rate the movie.
On one hand, I liked all the actors. On the other I felt it was bloated with action sequences, to the point where they could have easily cut 10 minutes of action and given us more character or plot development.
Plot also felt way too predictable, although that could be down to having seen so many marvel movies by this point. I mean, you knew immediately when they showed the waterfall that BP was gonna be going down there. You knew immediately after the initial conversation that the mountain people would show up to the fight when it wasn't looking good. I also felt like the FBI-character didn't fit in at all & i thought his mindset was like that of a comedic-relief character, which I rarely enjoy. That army-leader guy also felt poorly created. Seemed so simple-minded and in the end just gave up and wasn't shown to have any consequences to his actions apart from not getting to pick his king.
I also found it weird as feck that they used a rolling-camera during one scene when it added absolutely feck all to it, I believe it was the introduction to the throne room?
Negatives out of the way, as I mentioned I really enjoyed the acting in general. Love the voice of the guy playing BP. Thought the actors playing his ex & sister were absolutely fantastic. And given how predictable the plot felt, I also felt like the guy playing Killmonger was superb at emotionally expressing a character that should have had a lot more development and general showing apart from battles.
So overall:
Great actors & great visual effects picked it up from being a average super-hero movie, but they had to work damn hard for it in my opinion seeing as the writers didn't seem up for it.
Also disliked that from what I saw with the 2 post-ending scenes, nothing about the last infinity stone was mentioned, which I expected to be somewhere in Wakanda and to be revealed in this movie.
Plot also felt way too predictable, although that could be down to having seen so many marvel movies by this point. I mean, you knew immediately when they showed the waterfall that BP was gonna be going down there. You knew immediately after the initial conversation that the mountain people would show up to the fight when it wasn't looking good. I also felt like the FBI-character didn't fit in at all & i thought his mindset was like that of a comedic-relief character, which I rarely enjoy. That army-leader guy also felt poorly created. Seemed so simple-minded and in the end just gave up and wasn't shown to have any consequences to his actions apart from not getting to pick his king.
I also found it weird as feck that they used a rolling-camera during one scene when it added absolutely feck all to it, I believe it was the introduction to the throne room?
Negatives out of the way, as I mentioned I really enjoyed the acting in general. Love the voice of the guy playing BP. Thought the actors playing his ex & sister were absolutely fantastic. And given how predictable the plot felt, I also felt like the guy playing Killmonger was superb at emotionally expressing a character that should have had a lot more development and general showing apart from battles.
So overall:
Great actors & great visual effects picked it up from being a average super-hero movie, but they had to work damn hard for it in my opinion seeing as the writers didn't seem up for it.
Also disliked that from what I saw with the 2 post-ending scenes, nothing about the last infinity stone was mentioned, which I expected to be somewhere in Wakanda and to be revealed in this movie.
Very average and way too long. One of the lesser Marvel movies. Come to think of it, might be the worst.
The lead actor is the redeeming quality, like him alot.
The lead actor is the redeeming quality, like him alot.
It was enjoyable and I liked it but I wouldn't say it's one of the better Marvel Universe films.
One thing that disappointed me a little was that, beyond the prologue, I didn’t really feel Cooglers fingerprints on this. It felt like a competently made Marvel film for the most part, like something from the Russo Brothers.
I'm not a big MCU fan and have not seen them all by any means. The ones I have, I've generally enjoyed - with the exception of The Avengers.
Really enjoyed this movie, probably my favourite I've seen in the MCU.
Really enjoyed this movie, probably my favourite I've seen in the MCU.
I really liked it. I don't know if it has rewatch value. The fact it had a bad guy you can almost sympathise with makes it better written than a lot of what Marvel have done. It took several movies get Loki a personality.