I’m talking about today. I don’t know enough about the various historical manifestations of blackface to do otherwise.
"Blackface" Discussion
- Thread starter Mister_Stubbs
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Any difference in opinion on this topic comes down to one word, racist. Replace racist with offensive, and I think everyone would see it the same way.
2001 though ?
A bit of a weak excuse don't you think?
It seems this was quite a common occurrence for Trudeau. So common that he can't actually remember how often it happened.
There's also a slight irony in that searching a person's past for something to use against them was a tactic of the left leaning Social media mobs, and now it's being used against them. Not for the first time either. That someone is using it in this manner, so close to an election doesn't take away the fact that it is racist.
This is not even remotely an exclusively left-wing thing. All sides do it.
Yes, now. However the recent trend came from the left.
Of course political opponents have been digging dirt on each other since forever, but in regards to recent times, the social media age, the left were the ones who first used the tactic, and were damn happy with themselves for doing so.
The same thing happened with contacting people's work, family or friends over their views posted online, or attacking businesses.
Again this isn't true at all - the right are just as guilty of this as the left are.
They are now, yes. Though the left were first to use the tactic as it is used now.
I’m loving this. Trudeau’s supporters are the first to find any small thing and scream racism, sexism, transphobia and everything under the sun and to now watch them come up with far fetched reasons to excuse legitimate racism is amusing to me.
Black face from minstrel shows has been slammed as racist since the 1970’s. There was an episode of All in the Family on this subject. In 2001 you can’t say he was unaware that this was considered racist.
Black face from minstrel shows has been slammed as racist since the 1970’s. There was an episode of All in the Family on this subject. In 2001 you can’t say he was unaware that this was considered racist.
He must have known there were pics too. If so he should have come out with it himself years ago.
Sounds like you're just going on what you feel rather than anything factual. Particularly as you say both left and right have been used to digging up dirt long before the social media age.
Yeah Trudeau's main issue is that he is the poster boy of "being woke" and essentially blackening up doesn't fit with the brand. If you hate all things politically correct then yeah you would be loving this.
Supporters everywhere are clamouring to defend him and conservatives are of course chomping at the bit to seize on a chance to capitalise on something, where as Trudeau himself just admitted it, apologised for it, spent time reaching out to leaders of minorities to apologise, owned it and said himself how wrong he is, which is a mature thing to do and what we teach our children is the appropriate response to extremely poor judgement.
It's also interesting to see online how Americans are responding to this with selective memories given that around the same time as Trudeau stupidly thinking it's somehow okay to go the whole hog and friendly cosplay as a brown person including skin tone (a month after 9/11), swathes of the USA were expressing actual open hatred and deep racism towards people with brown skin on a daily basis.
It's also interesting to see online how Americans are responding to this with selective memories given that around the same time as Trudeau stupidly thinking it's somehow okay to go the whole hog and friendly cosplay as a brown person including skin tone (a month after 9/11), swathes of the USA were expressing actual open hatred and deep racism towards people with brown skin on a daily basis.
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I don't think I'll be taking any advice from you, to be honest.
It's an incredibly depressing thread, along with the Lukaku one, to be honest.
Why not? It wasn't that well known back then so it's very plausible. When I was younger I didn't understand the history of blackface at all.
As long as you acknowledge it was wrong and apologise I think that's fine.
I mean, what the heck is wrong with Trudeau? 3 separate incidents now.
Pretty funny that it's Trudeau of all people. Live by the sword...
what are you referring to?
I mean he's pretty much made his reputation on being aggressively 'progressive' and people who align with that kind of thing are a notoriously unforgiving bunch. History may say that being 'progressive' was the making and breaking of the man in politics.
Was it aggressively "progressive" or just aggressively anti-Trump?
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Surely those are one in the same
No not really. I was just seeing a lot of bullshit qualifying statements, justifications and excuses for really offensive, racist behaviour and chose some glib reducto ad absurdum to meet the defender's whack-a-mole intensity.
Black face was considered racist and was known to be so back in 2001. Pretty much since the 1970s.
And while an apology is important, I don't think it can excuse such repeated behaviour so easily.
Put it like this, Trudeau wouldn't be forgiving others in this situation.
Maybe there are still some people - a few? a lot? who don't understand that offending people is wrong. But when I put it like that even I think well it must be confusing for some people because most things you can do these days will get a response from someone that wants to find it offensive if you know what I mean? It's like a thing where people will treat everything as an opportunity to be offended and of course some people will just find that silly so in effect they don't understand how serious this is. Particularly if it doesn't impact their lives and that is before we even get to the far right fascists who do it for fun.
Given some of the behaviours it's very difficult to get an opportunity to learn really.
Is the film White Chicks racist?
Has Trump tweeted about this yet?
Would it have been racist if white Michael Jackson went blackface?
I think there are qualifying statements - based around the theme, "I didn't know any better." The timeline for that excuse is probably different in different countries (and maybe even in different areas/social groups).
In the UK I'd guess it's sometime in the 1980s and the disappearance of The Black and White minstrel show etc. But as a 60s/70s kid I didn't connect the Robinson's Jam Golliwog, for example, to anything other than a toy (like a teddy bear) - it just didn't occur to me that it was supposed to represent a person. It was only decades later as rows broke out over it, that I saw that interpretation, and re-evaluated the image.
So I do have some sympathy with people caught out by the passage of time. I went to a few fancy dress parties as a teen/20something which I'm glad predate the phone camera era. I don't remember anyone wearing black or brown face makeup - but maybe only because by then those minstrel shows were only being watched by grannies - though there were probably a few big hair wigs around.
These days though? Canada in 2001? I don't know, I'm not seeing much basis for an excuse there. An apology and an, "I know better now" is a start, if it's genuine and said without too many buts in the sentence.
In the UK I'd guess it's sometime in the 1980s and the disappearance of The Black and White minstrel show etc. But as a 60s/70s kid I didn't connect the Robinson's Jam Golliwog, for example, to anything other than a toy (like a teddy bear) - it just didn't occur to me that it was supposed to represent a person. It was only decades later as rows broke out over it, that I saw that interpretation, and re-evaluated the image.
So I do have some sympathy with people caught out by the passage of time. I went to a few fancy dress parties as a teen/20something which I'm glad predate the phone camera era. I don't remember anyone wearing black or brown face makeup - but maybe only because by then those minstrel shows were only being watched by grannies - though there were probably a few big hair wigs around.
These days though? Canada in 2001? I don't know, I'm not seeing much basis for an excuse there. An apology and an, "I know better now" is a start, if it's genuine and said without too many buts in the sentence.
is there a history of using whiteface to ridicule and persecute white people?
this isn't difficult.
Yes. And sexist and most offensive of all for being utterly shit.
The racism is aimed a group who aren't dis-empowered by the racism and white face has no particular history so nobody cares that much, which is fair enough.
Yes. Wearing blackface (he even permed and dyed his wig) with Mike Pence looking like Mickey Rooney in yellow face.
I see what you mean. I think his rep was mostly PR huff though, personally.
Yes of course, I know that. But if someone didn't know that, how can you really blame them? Surely an apology is sufficient?
Best case scenario, he was so insulated from social norms (coming from relative privilege) that he had no understanding of social norms. Which is pretty worrying for someone in his position.
It is worrying when you put it like that, yeah
Anyway I don't want to defend the guy too much, I'm not his biggest fan. The fact he did it a few times is pretty weird too.
I dont want to come across as excusing blackface i'm not its been racist for a long time. Though i think it has to be said that back around 2001 even when almost everyone in North America and the UK knew blackface was offensive. Isn't it fair to say rightly or wrongly, that it didn't seem to be considered as offensive as it is right now?
At least not by entertainers and TV networks. I mean if you look at entertainment you had the likes of Jimmy Kimmel, Jimmy Fallon and Sarah Silverman going blackface for comedy sketches around the turn of the century. Even in the UK we had comedy shows like Little Britain and the League of Gentlemen with Blackface characters. I don't think any of those sketches would make it to air today yet just 15-20 years ago they were deemed ok. I can imagine someone watching that stuff and thinking blackface was just a bit of a laugh, funny or a good idea for a fancy dress party.
At least not by entertainers and TV networks. I mean if you look at entertainment you had the likes of Jimmy Kimmel, Jimmy Fallon and Sarah Silverman going blackface for comedy sketches around the turn of the century. Even in the UK we had comedy shows like Little Britain and the League of Gentlemen with Blackface characters. I don't think any of those sketches would make it to air today yet just 15-20 years ago they were deemed ok. I can imagine someone watching that stuff and thinking blackface was just a bit of a laugh, funny or a good idea for a fancy dress party.
I find it quite interesting in these threads.
I often see examples of people explaining that white people aren't allowed to judge what minorities can/can't get offended by. Fair enough.
Then I see following explanations telling white people what they can and can't get offended by because privilege. Surely it's down to the individual what they are/aren't offended by. If a white person is offended by racism, it's on an individual level and they can't just shrug their shoulders and say "well, my people have had it good for years so I'm not allowed to be offended"
I understand the general sentiment, but I think it's a bit of a shitty one. Of course, I'm white and middle aged so I'm practically satan.
I also find it interesting that this is causing more bad press for Trudeau than the SNC-lavalin corruption scandal. Is politics in such a state that corruption allegations from 2019 don't generate as much buzz as revelations about offensive fancy dress from 18 years ago!
I'm not sure if blackface in 2001 was considered anywhere near as racist as it is now by the general population. @jojojo above mentioned gollywogs. Robertson's jam didn't retire that particular offensive mascot until 2002. As @stevoc said, there was also Little Britain and Come Fly With Me where Lucas and Walliams were blacking up in 2010! This doesn't defend Trudeau's actions, but perhaps explains (sadly) a little about how more acceptable (whilst still offensive) this sort of imagery was in relatively recent times.
I often see examples of people explaining that white people aren't allowed to judge what minorities can/can't get offended by. Fair enough.
Then I see following explanations telling white people what they can and can't get offended by because privilege. Surely it's down to the individual what they are/aren't offended by. If a white person is offended by racism, it's on an individual level and they can't just shrug their shoulders and say "well, my people have had it good for years so I'm not allowed to be offended"
I understand the general sentiment, but I think it's a bit of a shitty one. Of course, I'm white and middle aged so I'm practically satan.
I also find it interesting that this is causing more bad press for Trudeau than the SNC-lavalin corruption scandal. Is politics in such a state that corruption allegations from 2019 don't generate as much buzz as revelations about offensive fancy dress from 18 years ago!
I'm not sure if blackface in 2001 was considered anywhere near as racist as it is now by the general population. @jojojo above mentioned gollywogs. Robertson's jam didn't retire that particular offensive mascot until 2002. As @stevoc said, there was also Little Britain and Come Fly With Me where Lucas and Walliams were blacking up in 2010! This doesn't defend Trudeau's actions, but perhaps explains (sadly) a little about how more acceptable (whilst still offensive) this sort of imagery was in relatively recent times.
It is difficult though @stepic, extremely difficult. In the same way the Robert Downey Jr wasn't racist for playing a role in which he "blacked up", I don't think every black person "whiting up" for a fancy dress or a white person "blacking up" or trying to look like Bruce Lee is racist. Half the time it's no different to Eddie Murphy playing an African King in a movie, or Borat taking the piss out of America and a large portion of Americans.
Part of the problem we're having in the World today with the right wing shift is due to people trying to throw a blankett over anything and calling it racist. Do I believe Antoine Griezmann who has probably more black mates than white is racist because he blacked up once? No. Probably a little simple though for not realising how sensitive the World has become.