Boycott The Qatar World Cup?

Andrade

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The UK government? I'd say not.

A person from the UK? Sure, depends on what they've done in their life. Same goes for the Qatari government and people from Qatar of course.
Fair answers. As I said in the other post, I'm talking about the morality of governments and media, not individuals. The only thing the average person in the UK should recognise is that they are very lucky to live there and not many other places.
 

Andrade

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Well that is complete rubbish. Football doesn't belong to brutal, oppressive regimes, or to greedy, amoral corporations, or with corrupt governing bodies. If we are talking moral consistency then there is plently of football that exists entirely free from any reasonable moral objections. I was just watching my nephew play football around the house, where is the corruption here?

The world is full of corruption and to differing degrees and scale depending on where it occurs. There is hypocrisy and double standards but that is no argument for moral nihilism and turning a blind eye to suffering and cruelty.

Moral standards and objections are always going to be on a scale. Just because I might have gone over the speed limit slightly and increased the risk of hurting someone by a fraction that doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to criticise or attempt to prevent someone who is trying to commit a rape or murder in my vicinity.

Russia, Israel, Uk, US etc. are all worthy of criticism but let's keep the criticism to the abuses carried out by Qatar in the Qatar boycott thread shall we. Surely that makes sense

We don't need to compare how clean each others' hands are before granting the ability to speak out against the morally objectionable.

This should be fecking simple.
It's interesting that you think there is any similarity between your nephew playing football and billion dollar professional sport, which is corrupt from top to bottom.
 

phelans shorts

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Fair answers. As I said in the other post, I'm talking about the morality of governments and media, not individuals. The only thing the average person in the UK should recognise is that they are very lucky to live there and not many other places.
But is that not the entire point of raising these complaints? The idea is to drag the government towards the individuals and try to force them to put pressure elsewhere to make it so that the bare minimum (clean drinking water, removal of slavery, allowing people to consensually bang whoever they want) is the case the world over.

Saying “well we can’t complain cos we’ve got it cushty” is the absolute worst way to handle a life of privilege which living somewhere like the UK undoubtedly is.
 

Andrade

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For those who may have been to or lived in that part of the world can I ask why Qatar has become such a focus?

What I mean is I've been to Saudi (for Hajj) and my passport was taken away. A cousin of my dad's and a neighbour from where I was born spent years working in Dubai and had similar, no complaints though. And it's accepted as it's been the case for years

Add to that the fact that we have had a GP in Abu Dhabi, MMA events in Dubai, concerts in Saudi Arabia, Boxing, Cricket etc but no uproar
These are all great questions and I urge people to at least think about what is being said here
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
Please answer the questions I posed. Does the UK have the moral right to lecture Qatar on human rights? Does the UK have clean hands?
The UK isn't though, the UK is perfectly happy to trade with and obfuscate all manner of atrocities, the LGBT thread is literally a direct criticism of a UK minister. And the UK isn't posting here. A good proportion of us aren't even from the UK.
 

lefty_jakobz

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You're literally the only person that mentioned it. No idea why you felt you needed to parachute into this clusterfeck of a thread with that completely unnecessary observation, but you do you.
So…nowhere?

some newbies should just stay newbies…
 

Andrade

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For those who may have been to or lived in that part of the world can I ask why Qatar has become such a focus?

What I mean is I've been to Saudi (for Hajj) and my passport was taken away. A cousin of my dad's and a neighbour from where I was born spent years working in Dubai and had similar, no complaints though. And it's accepted as it's been the case for years

Add to that the fact that we have had a GP in Abu Dhabi, MMA events in Dubai, concerts in Saudi Arabia, Boxing, Cricket etc but no uproar
There has also already been an Under-20 World Cup held in Qatar.
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
But is that not the entire point of raising these complaints? The idea is to drag the government towards the individuals and try to force them to put pressure elsewhere to make it so that the bare minimum (clean drinking water, removal of slavery, allowing people to consensually bang whoever they want) is the case the world over.

Saying “well we can’t complain cos we’ve got it cushty” is the absolute worst way to handle a life of privilege which living somewhere like the UK undoubtedly is.
Change has almost always come from the privileged and those with means on behalf of those who don't, top down revolution. As a Marxist I favour change from the bottom through organisation and solidarity, but it has rarely been seen in any historical context.
 

Spoony

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The UK isn't though, the UK is perfectly happy to trade with and obfuscate all manner of atrocities, the LGBT thread is literally a direct criticism of a UK minister. And the UK isn't posting here. A good proportion of us aren't even from the UK.
The UK and US government have blood on their hands. But this thread is about Qatar. It's not difficult to understand folks.
 

Sultan

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If United were playing at the same time as the final of the WC, I know who I would be watching. I'd be watching in the background not really caring about scorelines. This is as far as my boycott goes.

It's crazy the way my heart works with football and conflicting with my brain. I hope all United players have a great WC and Ronaldo has a terrible WC, obviously without taking anything away from Portugal's progress.
 

Andrade

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That's not always why people engage in whataboutary. It's very often to avoid confronting something awkward by changing or massively widening the subject.
I disagree. But why not widen the subject? Isn't it the point to be consistent about these things? As the other poster pointed out, why boycott the WC and not boxing or F1? Qatar and not Saudi? Etc etc.
 

phelans shorts

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Change has almost always come from the privileged and those with means on behalf of those who don't, top down revolution. As a Marxist I favour change from the bottom through organisation and solidarity, but it has rarely been seen in any historical context.
Exactly. The perfect example was posted yesterday (I actually think it may even have been by you, but I’ll mention it again for anyone who missed it) with Robespierre. He was very much a highly privileged member of society, then he was one of the leaders the revolution.

I’m totally with you on preferring the other method, but as you say it is incredibly rare.
 

stw2022

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Ultimately the position that you cannot condemned human rights abuses and persecution of minorities unless you simultaneously condemn all of the ills of the world is nonsense. People feel emboldened to defend oppression of gay people because deep down they don't object to it.
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
Ultimately the position that you cannot condemned human rights abuses and persecution of minorities unless you simultaneously condemn all of the ills of the world is nonsense. People feel emboldened to defend oppression of gay people because deep down they don't object to it.
Or because you have a certain passport.
 

stw2022

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It's odd to see Israel's human rights abuses cited by those who think pointing out Qatar's is hypocritical, but not North Korea's. Is that ironic hypocrisy?

Surely if you want to talk about Israel's you need to talk extensively about all others at same time. This is how you want this to work, no?

White washing of sports washing since 1936
 

duffer

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I disagree. But why not widen the subject? Isn't it the point to be consistent about these things? As the other poster pointed out, why boycott the WC and not boxing or F1? Qatar and not Saudi? Etc etc.
You disagree with what? That it's sometimes done for the reasons I said?

As for "why not broaden the subject" In this case because it's a massive distraction from the subject at hand. There's plenty of threads in the CE section to talk about Tony Blair.

And "why boycott this but not that", who is doing that? Tag the people who are doing it and ask, I have no idea.
 

dumbo

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It's interesting that you think there is any similarity between your nephew playing football and billion dollar professional sport, which is corrupt from top to bottom.
Quit trying to be smart, it was you who said:
If you're going to be logically consistent, you basically shouldn't watch football at all
To which I responded giving an example of football that is entirely free of objectionable actions. I didn't compare or claim any similarities (if anything I suggested the opposite). I was simple showing your statement up for the nonsense it is.
 

Sultan

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Try asking Wales football fans to boycott the WC. It's the first time in many decades they've qualified.
 

stw2022

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The world cup is like football Christmas. Buggered if I'm going to let a bunch of gay-oppressing fecks ruin that
 

moses

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Try asking Wales football fans to boycott the WC. It's the first time in many decades they've qualified.

The world cup is like football Christmas. Buggered if I'm going to let a bunch of gay-oppressing fecks ruin that
Yeah it's tricky, I love the concept of a world cup and the madness of tournament football, and I struggled with Brazil and Russia but this is just sickening. I can't imagine watching any of it.
 

Drizzle

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So…nowhere?

some newbies should just stay newbies…
I literally told you where mate. Clear as day. But again you choose to ignore it because it inconveniently spotlights your bs.

That's fine. You've been called out, pretended it didn't happen and then went ad hominem. Well played.
 

Andrade

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But is that not the entire point of raising these complaints? The idea is to drag the government towards the individuals and try to force them to put pressure elsewhere to make it so that the bare minimum (clean drinking water, removal of slavery, allowing people to consensually bang whoever they want) is the case the world over.

Saying “well we can’t complain cos we’ve got it cushty” is the absolute worst way to handle a life of privilege which living somewhere like the UK undoubtedly is.
I hope you're not suggesting that is my stance?
 

IhabX7

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It wasn't made by you, but it was the basis of this line of discussion.
Don't reply to me if you're gonna talk generalities. There's quite obviously virtue signalling and racism going on in the west toward this World Cup. If you yourself have a moral compass and critique both sides, why the feck do you care?
 

IhabX7

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Seriously, what are basing this accusation on? I'm really tired of these really serious but apparently baseless accusations.
You know damn well what he's referring to. Why are you playing dumb here? first replying to me with irrelevant nonsense then this.
 

maniak

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I thought it would be hard not to watch this a few months ago. I thought I'd have to force myself not to watch it, but as we got closer and closer and I read more and more about the situation, I thinks it's actually going to be easy. I don't feel any excitement about this at all.
 

lefty_jakobz

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I literally told you where mate. Clear as day. But again you choose to ignore it because it inconveniently spotlights your bs.

That's fine. You've been called out, pretended it didn't happen and then went ad hominem. Well played.
Where? Instead of talking nonsense quote the post.
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
Don't reply to me if you're gonna talk generalities. There's quite obviously virtue signalling and racism going on in the west toward this World Cup. If you yourself have a moral compass and critique both sides, why the feck do you care?
Sorry, you got into a conversation I was having with somebody else and I'll reply to who I like.

Where is the obvious racism? Because we don't tolerate that.
 

Pintu

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I don't remember that being part of Tony Blair's re-election manifesto so I'd say sure.

Thankfully, the MP I've voted for in every election since I was 18 has lost (and I picked the losing side in the Brexit referendum) so I aint taking any blame for anything any UK government has done.
And those who might have voted for Cameroon right before he, together with -also brilliantly elected in his country- French president Sarkozy, decided to f***k up Libya and the Sahel for the foreseeable future?
 
No more vague accusations.

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
Anymore vague accusations of racism, Islamophobia or now antisemitism is getting a thread ban if it's not backed up. The onus of proof is on the accuser. These scattergun accusations are despicable.
 

Andrade

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Quit trying to be smart, it was you who said:

To which I responded giving an example of football that is entirely free of objectionable actions. I didn't compare or claim any similarities (if anything I suggested the opposite). I was simple showing your statement up for the nonsense it is.
My goodness. I obviously meant professional football.
Why on earth would I suggest that people shouldn't watch their family members playing in the park FFS?! :lol:
 

Superunknown

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I thought it would be hard not to watch this a few months ago. I thought I'd have to force myself not to watch it, but as we got closer and closer and I read more and more about the situation, I thinks it's actually going to be easy. I don't feel any excitement about this at all.
I'm in the same situation right now. Honestly, haven't even got the faintest twinge of excitement. I had a brief look at the times when most of these games are taking place (out of curiosity), and they are mostly when I'm at work anyway, so that's made it even easier to avoid.
 

duffer

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And those who might have voted for Cameroon right before he, together with -also brilliantly elected in his country- French president Sarkozy, decided to f***k up Libya and the Sahel for the foreseeable future?
To save you going through every election ever, I don't personally think someone who voted for an MP of a particular party is responsible for the everything that party does.
 

Drizzle

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Where? Instead of talking nonsense quote the post.
Sigh. If you must. In relation to my rather uncontroversial opinion that Israel, crap as it is, was not the 'world's worst country' in relation to human rights, you said:
Slightly dissapointed neither of you used the anti semitism angle yet.
Given the fact that antisemitism hadn't been mentioned or alluded to by anyone until you, I replied:
What? Only one person has done that, and that's you, chief.
You feign innocence:
And I point to your original post. As I do again. As I'm a newbie (as you point out) and limited in my posts, I'll leave it here. Also I have a life to lead and a corrupt world cup to watch. But don't go swinging into threads dropping snarky digs about things like antisemitism and expect not to be called out on it. Bye.
 

Norman Brownbutter

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Seriously, what are basing this accusation on? I'm really tired of these really serious but apparently baseless accusations.
It's the knock on from the "arm pit" point, mate. I mean, you could always take it back and then they'd have no ammo to use against you... :D
 

Shai-Hulud

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Anymore vague accusations of racism, Islamophobia or now antisemitism is getting a thread ban if it's not backed up. The onus of proof is on the accuser. These scattergun accusations are despicable.
Thank you. Glad we have some staff with sense.