Bolsonaro has covid19
Brazilian Elections
- Thread starter Arruda
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If he recovers in a couple of days then Brazil is fecked.
Count yourself lucky we don't have any right leaning Brazilian mods.Bolsonaro has covid19
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Oh great he also took Chloroquine, so now when he recovers (which is likely) it will be because of the miracle drug that Trump said we should take all along. Because that's definitely how medical research works.
Now for Trump.
Huh? Me no moderator.... anyways, I'm also #ForçaCovid.
My missus is Brazilian. Would appear a lot of Brazilians think this is exactly what he's positioning to do (some even doubting if he has it and is pretending he does just to push Chloroquine!).
That's what people like him do, lie and manipulate, I highly doubt trump took the drug either.
And yet they're the ones the majority of people wanted to lead us. What the feck happened!
People fell for the lies and manipulation, obviously.
the story goes deeper than that in both brazil and india, but this is a big part of it
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Elextions have consequences.
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Is he still liked by Brazilian footballers?
By the rapey ones like Robinho I expect. It's very hard to admit you were wrong these days though, see the Conservatives having a 45% voting intention in Britain.
Biden administration would intervene against Lula even if it means more Bolsonaro.
Like something out of a movie.
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If we had a thread here about cops in brazil I think it'd be longer than the one about american cops.
Policing in favelas is warzone
Rubbish. Policing in Afghanistan and Somalia is warzone. Policing problems in favelas are brought entirely upon themselves.
Despite my hyperbolic description, I am not gonna enter in a lengthy discussion of something that there is plenty of information a about. If you believe that MILLIONS of people that live in favelas brought into themselves when they get caught up in between the crime, poverty and the police going all out, then there is not much to discuss
??? My comment meant that police bring it [the 'war'] entirely upon themselves. Apologies if unclear. Hence I have huge sympathy for police in virtual warzones, but near none in a government directed and run by a right wing thug in charge of a relatively stable country.
Sorry. I misinterpreted your comment. Yes, is not actual warzone but they act as if it is where law doesn't mean anything for them
Latin American populists of both the right and the left, have failed their populations miserably. If you look at Mexico's death rate, they might even have had more dead than Brazil per capita. Only difference is that perhaps López Obrador is a bit less vocal about being an asshole about it.
For all his faults, Lula left office with record approval ratings and lifted many millions out of poverty.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/31/brazil-lula-era-ends
Again, he has his faults, but I would argue he didn't fail brazilians in general.
Yea it's a super lazy narrative. Plenty of left wingish 'populist' governments in South America have done pretty well.
Here's hoping he runs in 2022 and beats the feck out of Bolsonaro.
According to the latest polls he leads by just 1%, going to 4% in a second round. The last election was brutal in terms of misinformation from right wing media, it's going to be nasty if Lula runs, and if he wins there will be violence, because millions of brazilians have been convinced he's some sort of reincarnation of Stalin.
In portuguese, but basically the poll info above:
https://www.noticiasaominuto.com/mu...ela-primeira-vez-corrida-presidencial-de-2022
How can he finish his term with a 90% approval rating and now be seen as a pariah by so many? I know he got mixed up in the skulduggery of Car Wash, but as you said - he's now practically the devil to lots of people despite being released with charges dropped. The right-wing media appears to have completely eviscerated him. It's such a polarised political landscape.
EDIT. Thanks for the link. My Portugues isn't as good as it should be, given I lived there for a bit and my partner being Brazilian. I'm determined to get better by the time I next visit.
From what I hear from brazilian friends, more than the media, it was the evangelical churches getting more into politics. They were ok with Lula at first when the sole focus was on economic issues, helping the poor and very poor, the churches got a lot of help from the state. After a few years, this help was reduced as poverty decreased and the party began supporting more social causes, like lgbt communities and more liberal segments of society. This made the churches shift right and the rich evangelical pastors allied with the far-right and began building the current conspiracy theory infested social media. Brazilians are in general very religious and uninformed, as a friend of mine says, many vote on who the pastor tells them. Recently Lula has been trying to make amends after criticizing some pastors in the past, he knows he needs the churches and if he runs, I'm sure he'll make some promises of financial programs which will benefit them.
That's fascinating. Thanks for that. I'd imagine Bolsonaro is more ideologically aligned with the church in terms of being anti LGBT friendly, while Lula is far more socially minded with programmes that seek to help the poorest and most vulnerable, which the church support. It's quite a mad country.
Yeah for sure, Bolsonaro is basically an old school military dictatorship style of politician, very common in south america. These types have always been aligned with conservative churches and if they couldturn the clock back a few decades they'd do it in a heartbeat. Recently some new churches and pastors have popped up, especially in Rio and São Paulo, which are more progressive and distance themselves from traditional churches, hopefully they continue to grow.
I'm not sure google will give you a readable translation of this, but here's a good article about it: https://www.cartacapital.com.br/sociedade/os-pastores-progressistas-dispostos-a-discutir-tabus/
Some of these churches want to include lgbt in the gospel, saying it's ok, some are even ok with abortion because they're based in poor neighborhoods where women die in great numbers trying to do it in hiding. It's a new trend, hopefully the youth who are drawn to religion will chose these over the ones which are more similar to american evangelical mega churches.
Regarding Lula, the impression I got from talking to members of his party I know here in Portugal is that he and some of his older allies are kinda old school marxist trained politicians, who focus more on economic equality and have this materialistic view that if they deal with that, other problems like discrimination will fix themselves naturally to a certain extent. Older PT members don't focus much on that (maybe strategically to appeal to religious people), they leave that to the younger generation who are very active socially (and on social media) in the big cities like Rio, São Paulo, Salvador, Belo Horizonte and so on. These younger guys try to mobilize the middle class who are doing ok economically to other issues like minority rights (lgbt, indigenous people,etc.), education and the environment.
Anyway, it is fascinating, a lot of moving parts and lots to consider by both voters and politicians.
Lula's downfall ultimately was classic populism. He wanted to perpetuate his party in power and leave no real space for the opposition. To that effect his party set up the largest corruption mechanism in the history of the country to get kickbacks funneled to their campaigns.
The workers' party being old school marxist in origin also always had a bit of a toxic message. It's not like the democratic socialists in the US that blame the 1% or the billionaires. Latin American left wing parties often hold the entire urban middle class in some kind of contempt, and you can tell that undercurrent is there when they speak. The urban middle class was what they'd won enough of to push them into the presidency in 2000, after defeats since Brazil's 1st direct presidential election in 1989, and held them in power through the election in 2014. But it was also the segment of voters that drove the calls for impeachment in 2016 and that swung for Bolsonaro in 2018. This despite having presided over the largest income expansion for that same population in a lifetime.
So I think they'd have to question where they generated this rejection instead of just blaming "the elites", the media, etc. The media was never in their camp for 4 successive election wins anyway. If they'd left more breathing room for the center right opposition they faced through all the elections before 2018 I think the country would've been in a healthier space. I'm not saying a party should look to lose an election on purpose, but when you're funneling millions in kickback money to your campaign and flooding television with ads your opposition can't match, then I'm gonna say you're not showing any kind of respect for democracy.
The workers' party being old school marxist in origin also always had a bit of a toxic message. It's not like the democratic socialists in the US that blame the 1% or the billionaires. Latin American left wing parties often hold the entire urban middle class in some kind of contempt, and you can tell that undercurrent is there when they speak. The urban middle class was what they'd won enough of to push them into the presidency in 2000, after defeats since Brazil's 1st direct presidential election in 1989, and held them in power through the election in 2014. But it was also the segment of voters that drove the calls for impeachment in 2016 and that swung for Bolsonaro in 2018. This despite having presided over the largest income expansion for that same population in a lifetime.
So I think they'd have to question where they generated this rejection instead of just blaming "the elites", the media, etc. The media was never in their camp for 4 successive election wins anyway. If they'd left more breathing room for the center right opposition they faced through all the elections before 2018 I think the country would've been in a healthier space. I'm not saying a party should look to lose an election on purpose, but when you're funneling millions in kickback money to your campaign and flooding television with ads your opposition can't match, then I'm gonna say you're not showing any kind of respect for democracy.
You are talking about a guy who was stopped from participating in an election he would have comfortably won by a judge who then went to work for his opponent. And the case was so strong that the sentencing was annulled, just a few days ago confirmed by the supreme court.
It's clear who is the real danger to brazilian democracy, and it's not Lula.
How does something that happened after the events I am describing serve as a counter-argument?
You mentioned crimes. Lula was punished, apparently unfairly, to the direct benefit of the current president. I'm sure you see a connection.
Yes, but I am referring to what I think is the underlying issue. Lula left office in 2010 with record approval as was mentioned here before, having "anointed" his successor. Yet 8 years later his party faced very high levels of rejection, so much so that the candidate that won the election (Bolsonaro) was no longer the center-right PSDB that had gone to the run-off vs the workers party in every single election since 1994, and instead was the candidate that had the narrowest platform and was simply the one that was most emphatically against the workers party. How did that happen?
My view, having lived through it, is that hegemony of one party is not healthy for a democracy. It breeds too much discontent regardless of any good effects that might be going on. It is not against the law for one party to win 4 elections in a row, but if I could have my way I would wish for one party to win only 2-3 elections in a row, lose to opposition that is ideally moderate, and then come back competing the next election. I think it keeps the overall mood in the country less tense, the opposition and its supporting groups at each time can keep the belief that there is a chance they will be back in power in a few years to enact some of the policies they'd like.
Just lastly, remember that Lula's case was in the latter stages of the Lava Jato investigations and trial, which had been ongoing since 2013 iirc. The evidence linking Lula to the corruption activity is some of the most tenuous in the whole thing which is why it has been under such a spotlight. But the revelations that came to light all through 2013-2015 had already revealed to the public that the workers' party had been getting kickbacks from construction companies to the tune of billions, and had mainly funded campaigns for national and state elections, but several of the party's leaders had also enriched themselves by several million.
The discussion about Lula's conviction or acquittal is relevant because he remains the largest political figure in the country despite all this, but the worker' party focusing so much on it also serves as a distraction from the fact that they did engage in the largest corruption scheme in the history of the country, and that is part of the reason why they are so rejected. I don't think that in most European countries a party could engage in this level of corruption and still hope to win national elections just 3-4 years after it was all revealed.
It is the same in many countries. Support the LGBT community and the Church jumps on you. Too may Churches get involved in politics. In the Philippines, the Church is in bed with the Communists now.