Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Ramshock]

You talk like the UK isn't one of the world's richest nation's, one of the top 4 trading partners of all major EU members, or the financial capital of Europe and the world.

If trade provides benefits even enemies will trade with each other. An the UK and EU would be far from enemies.

And you are giving all that up to be like Serbia and N Korea.

 

[Ramshock]

Boris' argument that he needs the threat of no deal to negotiate a better deal makes perfect sense to me. Can someone explain to me why it's such a bad idea?

If I wanted to buy a house and the owners knew I had no choice but to buy it, I'm hardly going to be able to negotiate myself a good deal.

Genuine question. I don't get a vote so I don't claim to be the best informed.

You arent the best informed if you think Boris has a plan other than hard Brexit

 

[Wibble]

The only lack of understanding comes from those who seem to ignore that the WA was rejected 3 times by the UK parliament and nobody has offered a single alternative option.

If there is no WA, then there is only exiting without a deal.

The EU has agreed to the WA.

If the WA comes back and is voted through on the 4th occasion, then Parliament will not be worthy of praise but questions should be asked about why they felt it necessary to play these games and waste all this time. This applies to leave and remain MPs.

The actual meat of the trade deal comes after, when the previous treaties cease to be and the temporary deals, or WTO rules come into play.

There is delaying while you negotiate, there is another referendum with real and clear alternatives and there is even revocation of A50. Lurching out like a petulant teenager is far from the only possibility. You just don't like them.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

So it seems they really are moving against Bercow. Leadsom is gleefully briefing and genuinely trying to claim Bercow not kowtowing to her cabal's will suggests impartiality. The Tories are standing against their own speaker at an election: let that sink in.

 

[Brwned]

Boris' argument that he needs the threat of no deal to negotiate a better deal makes perfect sense to me. Can someone explain to me why it's such a bad idea?

If I wanted to buy a house and the owners knew I had no choice but to buy it, I'm hardly going to be able to negotiate myself a good deal.

Genuine question. I don't get a vote so I don't claim to be the best informed.

If you switch the analogy to it being you selling the house, the threat is something like this:

• You: If you don't buy the house for this price, I'll set the house on fire
• Potential buyer to you: Eh, I suggest you don't. In any case, we've given you our final offer, and we think it's very fair.
• Potential buyer to his friends: He wouldn't actually set his house on fire, would he? I do quite like the house. His negotiating position is just silly. I suppose if he does set the house on fire, he'll probably call the firefighters and maintain the damage. Maybe we can get a cut price deal along with a refurbed house? He wouldn't just watch it burn to the ground...would he?! If not, hey ho, my house is pretty good for now anyway. He seems a bit nuts.
• You (to the entire world): Psssst, it's just a threat, these fools can't handle my negotiating skillz. They don't know where to turn!
• Potential buyer to you: Just to clarify, we're still not interested in negotiating further. Can we sign the deal on the table, or do you want to go ahead and set the house on fire?
• You: My plan is working perfectly

 

[WensleyMU]

Ok. Seems to me the hostility is primarily originating with you but it's your choice. You've dropped into a long standing thread which, clearly, is primarily pro remain and are making arguments that have been discussed extensively in a tone that, and it mat be that you can't perceive this, is aggressively condescending.
If you want to have a debate in those circumstances I'd imagine it'd be wise to take a different tack otherwise the flame war that you're at the heart of will escalate with no progress made. You will be seen as a troll, perhaps with justification.

There were well over 1300 pages when I first posted so obviously I wasn't about to read all that. Anyway, I could surmise the just of it rather quickly. Heavily bias for remain as you state.

The reality is that outside of forums like this, the vast majority of people have just been getting on with their lives. These frankly pointless debates between voters, after the fact achieve nothing. Those who take to the streets achieve a little more, but ultimately it's nothing.

We are all part of an extreme minority obsessing over Brexit. Outside of these forums and protests the 64million plus people who barely mention it and instead focus on what matters to them.

 

[WensleyMU]

There is delaying while you negotiate, there is another referendum with real and clear alternatives and there is even revocation of A50. Lurching out like a petulant teenager is far from the only possibility. You just don't like them.

Article 50 has a time limit. Subject to EI approval and UK acceptance of any extension, there comes a point where it simply becomes a case of us no longer being in the EU.

Word this morning was that France are to veto the extension.

The other options you mention have not been put forward nor do they have anything close to the support required. Revoking A50 has the support of about 100 MPs, it's a fringe option at best. The same with a second referendum.

 

[WensleyMU]

So it seems they really are moving against Bercow. Leadsom is gleefully briefing and genuinely trying to claim Bercow not kowtowing to her cabal's will suggests impartiality. The Tories are standing against their own speaker at an election: let that sink in.

Technically he's independent as he has to give up the Tory whip. He was also shifting away from the Tories before becoming speaker, even to the point of rumours circulating that he was about to jump ship to Labour.

 

[Tarrou]

There were well over 1300 pages when I first posted so obviously I wasn't about to read all that. Anyway, I could surmise the just of it rather quickly. Heavily bias for remain as you state.

The reality is that outside of forums like this, the vast majority of people have just been getting on with their lives. These frankly pointless debates between voters, after the fact achieve nothing. Those who take to the streets achieve a little more, but ultimately it's nothing.

We are all part of an extreme minority obsessing over Brexit. Outside of these forums and protests the 64million plus people who barely mention it and instead focus on what matters to them.

6 million people signed that petition to revoke article 50

I think most people are worried about it

 

[Wumminator]

Technically he's independent as he has to give up the Tory whip. He was also shifting away from the Tories before becoming speaker, even to the point of rumours circulating that he was about to jump ship to Labour.

Any evidence of those rumours?

 

[golden_blunder]

Whats this we kimosabe? You are a dub now

I reserve the right to change my mind

 

[Fingeredmouse]

There were well over 1300 pages when I first posted so obviously I wasn't about to read all that. Anyway, I could surmise the just of it rather quickly. Heavily bias for remain as you state.

The reality is that outside of forums like this, the vast majority of people have just been getting on with their lives. These frankly pointless debates between voters, after the fact achieve nothing. Those who take to the streets achieve a little more, but ultimately it's nothing.

We are all part of an extreme minority obsessing over Brexit. Outside of these forums and protests the 64million plus people who barely mention it and instead focus on what matters to them.

It's not a bias. It is an opinion. Impartiality is not required. I also don't think people think discussing the matter on a football sub forum is likely to influence the political direction of the country. The discussion, which you consider pointless (all things which don't directly influence legislation therefore are I assume), is rendered yet more pointless by your inflammatory rhetoric.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Technically he's independent as he has to give up the Tory whip. He was also shifting away from the Tories before becoming speaker, even to the point of rumours circulating that he was about to jump ship to Labour.

Utter pedantry. All speakers surrender the whip obviously. He is however an elected Tory MP and an actual member of the Tory party.
The Conservative party, the party of tradition and procedure, are standing against their own man in an election as an act of revenge by the fringe that now controls them. That is extraordinary.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Utter pedantry. All speakers surrender the whip obviously. He is however an elected Tory MP and an actual member of the Tory party.
The Conservative party, the party of tradition and procedure, are standing against their own man in an election as an act of revenge by the fringe that now controls them. That is extraordinary.

The Tory party exists in name only now. Boris is Farage’s puppet. It’s utterly pathetic.

Weird thing is that I don’t think the Boris ever envisioned any of this or dreamt of becoming a tinpot dictator like Trump would have but he’s boxed himself into this corner with his ambition and lies about Brexit.

 

[Eire Red United]

Boris' argument that he needs the threat of no deal to negotiate a better deal makes perfect sense to me. Can someone explain to me why it's such a bad idea?

If I wanted to buy a house and the owners knew I had no choice but to buy it, I'm hardly going to be able to negotiate myself a good deal.

Genuine question. I don't get a vote so I don't claim to be the best informed.

He can’t really expect Europe to believe that no deal is such a frightening prospect that they need to cave to his demands and give him this wonderful deal that he wants, while at the same time trying to convince the British people that no deal would be fine and the economy could prosper. Makes no sense.

 

[WensleyMU]

Utter pedantry. All speakers surrender the whip obviously. He is however an elected Tory MP and an actual member of the Tory party.
The Conservative party, the party of tradition and procedure, are standing against their own man in an election as an act of revenge by the fringe that now controls them. That is extraordinary.

Party membership is rescinded upon becoming speaker.

 

[sincher]

The extreme Brexit dickheads are so rabid now that any deal is likely to be rejected by Farage and crew as caving in. Boris's alignment with them puts his ability to sell any deal in question to such an extent that I think he is not bothering to try to get one, even though he knows it makes sense for the country. The only deal that really makes any sense is a very soft Brexit that keeps us in the EEA and Customs Union, but he can't sell that to his followers now. His hope is that we officially leave 'with no deal' but both sides admit their plans are not really in place and agree to some last ditch transition agreement on trade of goods at least. It should not be allowed to happen. The impact will be huge.

The best hope for any deal is that all the moderates just shrug their shoulders and accept it as better than kicking the can down the road. Most remainers, in the end, don't really care about the political union, they just see the benefits of the economic one. They should probably have voted for the May deal.

 

[Smores]

I despair whenever i see people think the no deal threat makes sense. It's like the household budget and austerity all over again. Reduce complexity down to a simplistic argument that makes sense in a simple scenario.

A lose lose threat only makes sense where the thing you're seeking is a tolerable loss to the other side. If you're asking for something they can't give you're just locking in the lose lose.
Imagine the EU demanding we stay in the single market permanently or it's no deal? It's a threat they could make but they know it's not a winnable position.

The EU do not want this to go on forever, they don't need some outlandish threat to make a reasonable adjustment. Unfortunately we're not coming up with any reasonable requests.

 

[P-Nut]

I'm more interested in the reasons that make you believe such arrogant aggression is justified. Your appalling grammar is tolerable but your unjustified sixth form smugness is unbearable. You have some points to make (your democratic point is shite but makes sense and your point about trade deals is partially correct). Why not try doing so in an articulate manner free from ridiculous resorts to dictionary definitions of words used by the tawdry campaigns of your Etonian elitists and underserved exclamations of superiority?
What you lack in subtlety you more than make up for in zealatory.

Top post and well put.

 

[devilish]

Boris' argument that he needs the threat of no deal to negotiate a better deal makes perfect sense to me. Can someone explain to me why it's such a bad idea?

If I wanted to buy a house and the owners knew I had no choice but to buy it, I'm hardly going to be able to negotiate myself a good deal.

Genuine question. I don't get a vote so I don't claim to be the best informed.

Threats can work if they are realistic. If the choice is between buying that house or sleeping on the streets were 99% you'll end up killed then that is not threat at all.

 

[roseguy64]

Sanders is on a level with Jesus and didn't Jesus tell us to consume his body?

Bernie Sanders? His followers would seem to agree.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Of course we need a WA. I have never claimed otherwise. No deal is a moronic concept.

Sadly our parliament, for whatever reasons they have, disagreed 3 times with that, the EU are unwilling to accept any changes to something they have all agreed to and nobody on the UK side is offering an alternative.

Which leave us with only the nuclear option.

And yes, trade deals will take time. Our only advantage over other third party trading partners is that we have previously had trade with the EU, and have the foundations in place. Which should reduce the time somewhat. It will still take years to conclude.

Why would this benefit the UK?

 

[horsechoker]

Bernie Sanders? His followers would seem to agree.

I wouldn't want to consume Bernie's body

 

[Mr Pigeon]

The 'plan' is to blame the EU for...well, the crisis to come. The EU themselves have realised this.

A banker, a builder and a benefit beneficiary all stand around a table with 12 biscuits on it. The banker takes 11 of the biscuits and turns to the builder and says "jet fuel can't melt steel beams". Then the builder votes Tory and ends up eating boiled rat stew for the rest of his life, furiously wanking into a sock and muttering "fecking EU bastards" under his breath.

 

[Sweet Square]

A banker, a builder and a benefit beneficiary all stand around a table with 12 biscuits on it. The banker takes 11 of the biscuits and turns to the builder and says "jet fuel can't melt steel beams". Then the builder votes Tory and ends up eating boiled rat stew for the rest of his life, furiously wanking into a sock and muttering "fecking EU bastards" under his breath.

 

[Sweet Square]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...hy-for-rebel-mp-antoinette-sandbach-eddisbury

Although not all the small towns and villages that make up the traditional Conservative constituency of Eddisbury in south Cheshire are strangers to economic hardship, Tarporley, at its heart, looks like a model of sturdy rural affluence.

In normal times the Conservative Association, situated in a quaint church lane, would busy itself with events such as golf-club lunches with Edwina Currie – as happened earlier in the year. But these are not normal times. The local MP, Antoinette Sandbach, is one of the 21 “rebels” who have been expelled from the parliamentary party for voting against the government. On Friday the association’s doors are locked, its blinds closed and its phone goes unanswered.

If a kind of internecine warfare has broken out within the Conservative party, then Eddisbury Conservatives appear, in mafia parlance, to have gone to the mattresses.

The only official who’ll speak is a councillor and former deputy chairman of the association, John Leather.

“I don’t feel it’s an appropriate thing for a modern Conservative party to do,” he says, referring to the withdrawal of the whip from Sandbach and the other 20 Tory MPs.

Does he think it has damaged Boris Johnson, a man who had few qualms about voting against his predecessor Theresa May’s government?

“I can’t really give you a view on that,” he says, diplomatically. “Clearly he’s trying to resolve an impasse. I just happen to disagree with this aspect of it.” Leather says he’s in favour of a broad church party, but that others in the locality may think differently.

They certainly do.

“They’re all traitors,” says 80-year-old Brian Gale, outside Ginger and Pickles tea rooms on the high street. “I’m pleased all of them were kicked out. Some of them were good MPs but they let the side down.”

Those good MPs include the former chancellor Philip Hammond, father of the house and also a former chancellor Ken Clarke, and several other household names. Yet there seems to be precious little sympathy for these accomplished Tories, let alone the local MP, in this genteel English village.

A married couple, who ask for their names to be withheld because “it’s a small community and a contentious issue”, say that Sandbach has paid the price for going against her constituents – in the referendum Eddisbury was marginally in favour of Leave. Her more serious sin was more likely going against Johnson.

“She wanted a deal for leaving, which I understand,” says the husband. “But it didn’t say anything about that on the ballot paper.”

He’s a little troubled by the ejection of Clarke, because of his wealth of experience, but he ascribes the decision to a drift towards extremes.

“I think what the country needs is some middle ground that everybody can agree on,” he says. What, then, had they thought about May’s withdrawal agreement, which, after all, was an attempt to find a middle way?

“The way she negotiated was a shambles,” he says, no longer sounding in the mood for compromise.

Another couple, Diana and Peter Ouseley are, if anything, more strident. Diana describes the rebels as “despicable” and is happy that Sandbach, Clarke et al have been purged.

“These are the people I call grey people,” says Peter. “I don’t like them. I don’t think they should be allowed back in.”

Most Conservative voters I speak to in Tarporley express the belief that Johnson is doing a good job in difficult circumstances. The fact that he has forced out MPs for doing the same as he did, by voting against the government, is seen not as a sign of hypocrisy but rather as a mark of strength.

“Whether or not one agrees with the methodology,” says one, “maybe it’s the way forward.”

Just two Tories veer from whole-hearted endorsement of Johnson. Mandy Nickson, a jewellery shop owner, says it’s “all a mess”. She is keen for the country to get out of the EU but she’s ambivalent about the prime minister’s strategy.

Retired businesswoman Elizabeth Lindop is the sole voice of outright dissent. “It’s disgraceful that the MPs were expelled,” she says. She thinks the Conservatives, as she puts it, have stabbed themselves in the foot. “They don’t have enough MPs for a majority but they’re getting rid of some.”

As a consequence, she says she will no longer vote Conservative.

But the unavoidable fact remains that in places such as Tarporley there is an increasingly desperate desire among many voters to leave the EU as soon as possible. Although few can articulate the nature of their animus towards the European project, they are all eloquent in venting their frustration that the referendum has not been honoured.

Among them there is a common belief that, once the UK is out of the EU, politics will return to a measure of sanity. But at the moment the rift both within the Tory party and the country at large feels too wide, and almost any resolution too divisive, for that to happen. As Lindop says: “These are strange times.”

And if the past week is anything to go by, they’re bound to get stranger.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Party membership is rescinded upon becoming speaker.

Your pedantry is extraordinary. The point, as you are very aware, is that the sitting speaker of the Commons is about to have a candidate set against the speaker seeking re-election by the parliamentary party which he was elected from. This is extraordinary.
If you don't get the implications of why, the Government are attempting to force the speaker from the chair by standing against them, when they are very party from which he came, as he is refusing to concede to their demands.

 

[T00lsh3d]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...hy-for-rebel-mp-antoinette-sandbach-eddisbury

aaaaaaaaaaaand this is why we’re fecked

 

[esmufc07]

aaaaaaaaaaaand this is why we’re fecked

Honestly it riles me so much reading that sort of stuff.

 

[WensleyMU]

Your pedantry is extraordinary. The point, as you are very aware, is that the sitting speaker of the Commons is about to have a candidate set against the speaker seeking re-election by the parliamentary party which he was elected from. This is extraordinary.
If you don't get the implications of why, the Government are attempting to force the speaker from the chair by standing against them, when they are very party from which he came, as he is refusing to concede to their demands.

Good grief man!

I politely informed you that you were mistaken.

That is neither pedantic or worthy of your numerous replies.

What is pedantic was questioning my grammar in your initial post.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

aaaaaaaaaaaand this is why we’re fecked

Traitors! Cowards! "Didn't say that on the ballot paper!"! Will of the people! Fuzzy Wuzzies on the village green! Commies in the Post Office!
Why can't decent people commit tax evasion or, if at the cap doffing end of the spectrum, have the right to erode working conditions, lose their jobs and call a spade a spade without these elected bastards expressing the sovereign will of our parliament and stopping the realisation of whatever I happen to believe Brexit is?

 

[T00lsh3d]

Honestly it riles me so much reading that sort of stuff.

Yeah you and me both. I’ve got to be so careful at work as I’m manager of a department where you typically hear that kind of horseshit on a regular basis, along with “we should just leave ASAP so we can get on with things after brexit”, and “Boris is just trying to do what the public votes for”. I did tell one of my clerks that Boris couldn’t give the slightest feck about her and would shit on her in a second to feather his own nest. Left it at that though

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

If someone could just stand up and tell the truth, not a ‘version’ of it, that would be great.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Good grief man!

I politely informed you that you were mistaken.

That is neither pedantic or worthy of your numerous replies.

What is pedantic was questioning my grammar in your initial post.

Yes because your posting style pissed me off far more than your views. Cry coward and insult posters and I will respond with pedantry.
You politely read a post, politely ignored its actual point and then politely selected a single aspect of it to reply to. That is
pedantry. I am, however, glad that you will be here to correct me in future and trust you will display the same level of exactitude in your Richard Littlejohn tribute opinion pieces in future.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Traitors! Cowards! "Didn't say that on the ballot paper!"! Will of the people! Fuzzy Wuzzies on the village green! Commies in the Post Office!
Why can't decent people commit tax evasion or, if at the cap doffing end of the spectrum, have the right to erode working conditions, lose their jobs and call a spade a spade without these elected bastards expressing the sovereign will of our parliament and stopping the realisation of whatever I happen to believe Brexit is?

You forgot the benders!

 

[Maticmaker]

If someone could just stand up and tell the truth, not a ‘version’ of it, that would be great.

"The truth, what is that"? ( Pontus Pilot -Governor of Judea, 33AD)

 

[SteveJ]

A reminder of the Brexiteers who appeared in the Paradise Papers as EU tax avoidance law looms

By 2020 the EU will bring in a law instructing anyone with off shore accounts and investments to disclose them to enable full scrutiny so they can no longer get away with tax avoidance and evasion:

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...-as-eu-tax-avoidance-legislation-looms/03/09/

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

A banker, a builder and a benefit beneficiary all stand around a table with 12 biscuits on it. The banker takes 11 of the biscuits and turns to the builder and says "jet fuel can't melt steel beams". Then the builder votes Tory and ends up eating boiled rat stew for the rest of his life, furiously wanking into a sock and muttering "fecking EU bastards" under his breath.

Am I the only one curious to know what the benefit beneficiary did next?

 

[Mogget]

I think my current favourite leaver response is "it only said 'leave' on the ballot paper". Ignoring all the shite that was promised by the leave campaign that can't be fulfilled now.

Because of course when you're voting at any other time the ballot paper sets out the full manifesto and campaign pledges of each side.