Apart from voting demographics, what I am curious about: what would those Scotland and NI Brexit voters think if the current trade agreement negotiations lead to a no-deal Brexit after all (which is what's currently being threatened, I think), that leaves NI in unclear territory? That question is irrelevant for England and Wales, since no-one is considering their departure from the UK. But if a good part of that 35% in Scotland and 44% in NI is against this type of Brexit, then the secession issue is seriously on if the Tories continue on their current path.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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For that to be the case each Celtic vote would need to be counted nine times for each English one or the quadruple lock proposed by Salmond. At that point there would be no Union to worry about endangering with Brexit.
I'm not denying any of those stats, as you stated I cited them.
There is a threat to the Union of going through any form of Brexit and not going through with Brexit also.
Do you know what are the actual arguments behind any of that? I mean: the EU is much larger than the UK; there is no clear separation between what the EU wants and what its members want; and why would Barnier be sidelined as long as he is following the direction outlined by the EU leadership? I just don't get why the Tories would think any of this is true. (Or maybe they don't, and this is all just bluster as part of the negotiations?)
I live in a 60% leave area in England so the Brexiteer views I hear might not be shared in other parts but I haven't met anyone who would change their vote because of no deal yet.At least they have never said so.
I am minded of Orwell's views on Mein Kampf. "that human beings don’t only want comfort, safety, short working-hours, hygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle and self-sacrifice, not to mention drums, flags and loyalty-parades".
Well, quite. Hence it is the votes of England that resulted in Brexit. Not Scotland, for example, which voted overwhelmingly to the contrary. Hence why people say the English voted for Brexit and not Scotland and NI and the risks to the Union by pursuing the current path are very real. It's not a mythology. England voted for Brexit and it's occurring for that reason.
Probably because nobody gave a toss about trade deals when they were voting for Brexit. It is, was, and always has been, about immigration.
Leave won by 1,269,501 votes. Scotland and Northern Ireland between them submitted 1,367,764 leave votes. If you want to be myopic and reductive about it, it was those Celts who pushed Brexit over the line.
Manchester voted 60.4% remain and London voted 59.9% remain. Those two major English cities were let down by the rest of the UK.
Manchester voted 60.4% remain and London voted 59.9% remain. Those two major English cities were let down by the rest of the UK.
You’re not wrong, a lot of Welsh people voted for leave. Areas like the valleys voted leave despite having benefitted a great deal from the EU. That study that portrayed the leave vote as due to elderly English expat communities could be wrong or right, but in the 2019 elections the Welsh vote consisted of 70% remain parties. I wouldn’t be confident at all saying Wales wants to leave.
IMO Brexit is an English nationalist project that attracted non Nat out riders here and there, but that's its core I reckon, that's the underlying flame that's being fanned. I don't think the Tories are a unionist party anymore, not in their hearts. And if there's one thing nationalists love to do, is define themselves against their bigger neighbour, ie the EU. I think the Union is toast because theres too many people who can see an advantage in it ending.
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Any sensible person with a modicum of intelligence knows that none of this is correct.
Worryingly for the UK there are millions of British citizens who will believe that this is true.
Unfortunately it is clear that only cold hard reality will make them realise that they've been the victims of an enormous con trick. Of course they won't admit that even in the depths of despair.
Yes, but all I said was that not only English people voted for Brexit. That is the nationalist narrative and its designed to washes away 35% of Scottish votes for leave to make this a false solely English versus Scottish dichotomy because it suits. While pretending injustice on the imposition on its UK based minority view it hopes to do just the same come IndyRef2 to remainer Scots with far greater consequences than the UK leaving the EU.
What a legacy that would be for the Tories. Isolated the country from Europe and then oversaw its disintegration.
It's not terribly far-fetched.
There's a type of revolutionary Brexit ultra who is prepared to burn everything down in pursuit of the purest form of Brexit and tragically this is the gallery the "conservatives" have been playing to all through this wretched affair.
Strip out the ni mp's and the Scottish though and the conservatives probably walk most uk elections
Hard to know when the pendulum is going to swing. At the moment, the brexiters have the advantage of being able to say what they like without any real consequences but that's going to end soon. At the end of the day it'll be retail politics which sinks this ship.
Amazingly, some on the left supported Brexit for a similar reason: get out of the neoliberal EU so the UK can plot a more leftist course. They must be playing the longest long-game in history, cause I really don't see the UK (especially without Scotland) move to the real left (forget about centre-left, that wasn't the point) any time soon...
Reality is getting closer and until it happens the Brexiters won't believe it will be a disaster. Until now it's all bluster as although the UK have left the EU they are still having the benefits of the single market and the customs union plus all the thousands of other benefits.
Next year that all stops or most of it will even with a trade deal of whatever magnitude. The effects will of course start sooner if the talks die in the next few weeks or Johnson actually breaks the WA and/or the GFA.
And Scotland voted 62% to remain so what the feck are you on about? Manchester, London, Northern Ireland, Scotland, all of them were let down by the regions that voted for Brexit.
Hell, even the people who voted FOR Brexit have been let down because they were sold a pack of lies. We should create a new country. It'll have worse borders than Palestine but screw it, we can use HS2 as a private shuttle.
We will see the return of the "plucky British loser" before too long - what Irish people used to call a certain type of Brit amateur who keeps fecking it up but wants points for trying. Thats our politics at the moment and it'll be our economics too before too long.
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He voted for it.
Honestly I have no idea. It was not only the sheer arrogance of him, but the smug look on his stupid face. Like we have all the cards and the EU will have to capitulate to our demands.
I totally agree with you. It smacked of colonial Britain of the long and distant past. But the Tories are trying and in far too many cases convincing people that the EU and the rest of the world will grovel at our feet and bow to our wishes.
It is just madness. We are being governed by megalomaniacs and halfwits with little or no comprehension of the real world.
So. Boris Johnson Brexit Withdrawal Agreement which he repeatedly told us that it was a great deal, never made sense in the first place. You can say that again Boris.
This is a government characterised by incompetence, incoherence and bare faced lies.
This is a government characterised by incompetence, incoherence and bare faced lies.
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This is fine.
@Frosty - how the hell are you? Seems a long time between drinks
Wait until they realise America are the guarantors of the GFA and they take that seriously.
They may have got away with it if nothing was signed but actually going back on an agreement kills them. Theyll be told what to do soon enough.
I am sure I remember very early on in the Brexit talks Theresa May declaring that from the UK standpoint "Nothing is agreed ,until everything is agreed" "So, the first part the WA is agreed, but until the second part the Trading situation is agreed... actually nothing is agreed, nothing is concluded!
Hence if the second part is not agreed, then the first part falls and everything goes 'tits up'
Hence if the second part is not agreed, then the first part falls and everything goes 'tits up'
Ah thanks, I was really struggling to understand what "nothing is agreed until everything is agreed" meant until you added the 2nd bit there.
Yeah but that's not how the real world works. The WA and a potential trade deal are two separate things, the WA is signed and has been concluded a long time ago, no amount of buzzwords from Theresa will change that.
Over 500,000 English people live in Wales. Wales has a total population of just over 3 million.
To the EU maybe, but not to the UK Government!
The EU kept saying we cannot negotiate a TD with you whilst you are a member of the EU, leave pay us what you owe and then we negotiate with you as a separate country. That does not seem to be happening as according to 'leakage' from No.10 the EU still want to dictate specific issues, on matters that they do not do with any other country.
Hence Theresa Mays words still hold "Nothings agreed, until everything is agreed" as the overall UK position.
This kind of nonsense is to be expected though, since both sides have been talking to the back of each others heads since day one.
What planet do you live on? Everything you've posted in this thread is complete and utter nonsense.
To everyone that signed the Withdrawal Agreement. And you do realize that the UK left the EU, the UK are a separate country.
I need to ask, do you think that the UK are still a member?
I begin to wonder sometimes!
I agree its all been nonsense (as I said in my last line) from the start, there is no way the EU could give us a deal that wasn't worse than we had as a member and there is no way we would accept any EU jurisdiction over how we run our country once we had left. Because both sides would have had to concede/compromise on their ultimate 'red line', and this is political unacceptable in Brussels and in London.
It was never going to happen, as all politicians (on both sides) led us to believe it would, both parties should have spent the two years transition time working out how we could continue to trade in some form or other, with each other, but under WO conditions.
It didn't happen then, it will happen now and be even more 'fecked-up' because of Covid.
(Alice in) Wonderland is the place we all reside now!
At this point the government simply needs to be called out as corrupt liars.
Once that fact is established and understood by all, we can move forward as a nation.
The government has gone off the deep end here with deciding to override key parts of the Withdrawal Agreement. I can't see it incentivising the EU to compromise in the negotiations.
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To be honest as much as a mess as its going to be if we end up with no deal (though I still think there will be fudge / extension) I do think a no deal would actually make rejoining within a decade a possibility as I think that a lot of people when they voted to leave expected a deal would be done and if enough of thise turn on the government along with demographic changes then rejoin becomes possible (at least in a UK referendum - if the EU would actually want us back might be a different thing entirely)