Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


  • Total voters
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NinjaFletch

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I did answer it.

Let's break it down for you , and maybe you'll be able to see past James O'Brien for a minute.

Example
The UK wants an independent free trade deal with Australia. The EU says No. That is bad, or is it?
The UK signed up to all EU laws, and receives the benefits of membership.
There is a debate as to whether the positives of EU membership outweigh the negatives.
52% of voters chose to end EU membership, believing there were more positives in not being members.
The UK negotiates a free trade deal with Australia.

So here is a positive outcome of brexit made possibly as a result of freedom from EU law. Yes?
The counter argument is whether the cost of this out weighs the benefit of full EU membership.

We broke free 29 days ago, and the situation is nothing compared to what you have predicted for the last four years, and there's still a lot of wrinkles to iron out.
There'll be many more benefits to come, watch this space.

However, it is in the EU's interest, and our interest to make it work, and who knows, if the EU focuses again on a simple trading community between European countries, there's no reason why we couldn't rejoin.
Laughable, it really is. The Brexit 'benefit' of a trade deal with a country the EU is at any rate negotiating a deal with to offset the damage you and your bunch of wreckers have done by throwing up barriers between the EU and the UK. It's funny how FTAs are great when they suit the flimsy narrative that there's any perks from Brexit, but absolutely awful when they're between the UK and its biggest trading partner.

You can spit in our faces and tell us it's raining all you want, but deep down you know we're all worse off and these supposed 'benefits' (which in every case are things we were largely able to do either unilaterally or through working with the EU anyway ) don't even begin to cover the damage you have caused this country.
 

Plymouth Red

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You literally contradict yourself.
I don't think you have read the earlier posts. Regulus responded to this comment from Vidic blood and sand

'You know that brexit enabled the government to order the vaccines early, get it approved, and start vaccinating.'

The vaccines we are buying cannot be negotiated individually by the other 27 states. They can go elsewhere such as Russia or China, but the EU centrally are approving and buying the ones the UK is using. We chose to go it alone and it has paid off in terms of the approval process, quantities and delivery dates for our vaccine supply.

These are facts, not opinions.
 

Massive Spanner

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I don't think you have read the earlier posts. Regulus responded to this comment from Vidic blood and sand

'You know that brexit enabled the government to order the vaccines early, get it approved, and start vaccinating.'

The vaccines we are buying cannot be negotiated individually by the other 27 states. They can go elsewhere such as Russia or China, but the EU centrally are approving and buying the ones the UK is using. We chose to go it alone and it has paid off in terms of the approval process, quantities and delivery dates for our vaccine supply.

These are facts, not opinions.
They aren't facts at all. I'm not sure how many more times it has to be pointed out that the UK was still in the EU when they decided to go it alone. Member states were not forced to sign up to the EU vaccination rollout, they chose it.
 

Paul the Wolf

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I did answer it.

Let's break it down for you , and maybe you'll be able to see past James O'Brien for a minute.

Example
The UK wants an independent free trade deal with Australia. The EU says No. That is bad, or is it?
The UK signed up to all EU laws, and receives the benefits of membership.
There is a debate as to whether the positives of EU membership outweigh the negatives.
52% of voters chose to end EU membership, believing there were more positives in not being members.
The UK negotiates a free trade deal with Australia.

So here is a positive outcome of brexit made possibly as a result of freedom from EU law. Yes?
The counter argument is whether the cost of this out weighs the benefit of full EU membership.

We broke free 29 days ago, and the situation is nothing compared to what you have predicted for the last four years, and there's still a lot of wrinkles to iron out.
There'll be many more benefits to come, watch this space.

However, it is in the EU's interest, and our interest to make it work, and who knows, if the EU focuses again on a simple trading community between European countries, there's no reason why we couldn't rejoin.
It's never been just a trading community (the 5 millionth time this has been said ) but let's go along with it - you want a trade deal with Australia, if the UK rejoins the EU it can't negotiate a trade deal independently - you're contradicting yourself.
You still haven't listed a single real benefit.

If you want to go with the tampon tax, just checked the same product in Tesco's is 50p more expensive than Sainsbury's - but you save 13p for the tampon tax - moral is , don't leave the EU, shop at Sainsbury's. :smirk:
 

JPRouve

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It's never been just a trading community (the 5 millionth time this has been said ) but let's go along with it - you want a trade deal with Australia, if the UK rejoins the EU it can't negotiate a trade deal independently - you're contradicting yourself.
You still haven't listed a single real benefit.

If you want to go with the tampon tax, just checked the same product in Tesco's is 50p more expensive than Sainsbury's - but you save 13p for the tampon tax - moral is , don't leave the EU, shop at Sainsbury's. :smirk:
Once again I will just put the goals stated by the Treaty of Rome in 1957:

Specific goals

The signatories agreed to:

  • lay the foundations of an ‘ever closer union’ among the peoples of Europe
  • ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by joint action to eliminate trade and other barriers between them;
  • improve their citizens’ living and working conditions;
  • ensure balanced trade and fair competition;
  • reduce the economic and social differences between the EEC’s various regions;
  • gradually abolish restrictions on international trade through a common trade policy;
  • abide by the principles of the UN charter;
  • pool their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and liberty and call on other peoples of Europe who share this ideal to join them in these efforts.
 

tombombadil

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Not quite, in fairness. He's right that for the likes of Pfizer and Astro-Zenica, individual countries can only sign contracts to get more doses after the EU has received it's full amount. Germany actually did do that with Pfizer.

However the countries weren't forced to sign up to the collective agreement in the first place. Any EU country could have gone on its own just like the UK did when it was still in the EU, but they decided not to. Sadly it looks like the EU did make a total balls up of the whole thing so it's not looking like a great idea right now for more powerful economies like Germany.
To be fair to the guy , he does make a very valid point about the vaccinations . It is an example of how an independant country can act more quickly than a huge bloc needing universal approval prior to moving on a plan .
I don't think you have read the earlier posts. Regulus responded to this comment from Vidic blood and sand

'You know that brexit enabled the government to order the vaccines early, get it approved, and start vaccinating.'

The vaccines we are buying cannot be negotiated individually by the other 27 states. They can go elsewhere such as Russia or China, but the EU centrally are approving and buying the ones the UK is using. We chose to go it alone and it has paid off in terms of the approval process, quantities and delivery dates for our vaccine supply.

These are facts, not opinions.
No. Literally. No.

You are literally missing the point. You already have the freedom to go your own way even before Brexit. Plymouth literally quoted Hungary doing exactly that in his original post. The fact countries chose to go with EMA has nothing to do with what we are talking about right now. Whether they are faster or slower, also has nothing to do with what we are talking about right now. We are talking about having the choice to go your own way. UK showed they had that choice before Brexit. So you literally gained nothing from Brexit. You literally could have done the same thing and still remain a member of the EU. So it is not a Brexit benefit.
 

Plymouth Red

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I think trying to quote Bild to lend yourself authority kind of says it all.
I'm truly puzzled by your reaction.

I'm using a quote from a respected German newspaper to illustrate that within EU countries, there is a growing feeling that the Commission has let its citizens down by the tardy manner in which they have gone about the procurement of vaccines. The author chooses to highlight non-EU countries including the UK as examples of governments which have been ahead of the game in comparison to the EU.

I used Bild because I happened to read the about the article today on the Guido Fawkes website, which is part of my daily reading.

However, there are other examples of unease in Europe such as this article from the Project Syndicate website, written on Jan 18, 2021 by HANS-WERNER SINN in Munich

"With under-supplied vaccination facilities and overcrowded COVID-19 wards, the European Union is reaping what it sowed last summer when it decided to put the European Commission in charge of preordering vaccines. There was neither a legal basis nor any economic justification for central planning.

A storm is raging over the European Union’s failure to have ordered more of the approved COVID-19 vaccines ahead of time. Stéphane Bancel, the CEO of the US pharmaceutical company Moderna, which gained approval for its vaccine shortly after Pfizer/BioNTech, claims that the EU has relied too much on “vaccines from its own laboratories.”

Did the European Commission prioritize supporting its own pharmaceutical industry over protecting human lives? In fact, matters are not as simple as that. Contrary to what Bancel wants us to believe, the EU has actually ordered too little of its own vaccine. After all, the vaccine that is being administered most widely across the West was developed by a German company, BioNTech, and thus comes from the EU (though it was tested and partly produced in partnership with Pfizer in the United States and with Fosun Pharma in China).

Far from having ordered too little of the “American” vaccine, the EU sat back while the US and other countries stocked up on doses of a vaccine that was created and produced in a German lab. The EU is guilty not of protectionism, but of institutional inflexibility. The slow vaccine rollout in many European countries is the result of the EU’s failure to coordinate the interests of the various member states. Whereas some countries balked at the price of BioNTech’s mRNA vaccine, others were skeptical about its new gene-based technological underpinnings, and still others simply did not recognize the urgency of the situation, having assumed that the worst of the pandemic had already passed.

To be sure, an inter-European rivalry between national vaccine producers may have contributed to the EU’s unwillingness to preorder more of the German vaccine last summer, as America and other countries did. As a small start-up from Mainz, BioNTech had little chance of being heard above the din of lobbying at the European Commission by established European pharmaceutical giants.

Whatever the reason, the severe delay in the supply of vaccines in Europe is now a fact. While the US, the United Kingdom, Japan, and Canada jostled last July and August to secure huge batches of the BioNTech vaccine, the EU initially placed its orders only with Sanofi and AstraZeneca, both of which subsequently admitted difficulties in clinical trials. Not until November – when journalists started asking pointed questions – did the EU strike its first deal for a batch of the BioNTech vaccine. This was followed in December and early January by further purchases, including from Moderna.

Due to the delay in ordering, the deliveries are coming late. After all, producers are operating on a first-come, first-served basis and need time to build up new production sites. As a result, European news media are filled with forlorn images of empty vaccination centers that have run out of supply, alongside footage of overstretched intensive care units. A sense of imminent horror has seized a frightened European public. At this rate, the EU will have no chance of catching up with the US, the UK, Israel, and other leading vaccinators until this summer.

The EU contends that it diversified its orders early on because it couldn’t know which vaccine candidates would succeed. But that is a cheap excuse, considering that it still didn’t order nearly enough from any producer to be able to vaccinate its people in the event that only one vaccine candidate reached the approval stage – a distinct possibility at the time.

If the EU had taken the risk of purchasing enough doses to cover two-thirds of its population from each of the six producers it dealt with, it would have needed to spend just €29 billion ($35 billion). For comparison, that is how much income the EU economy has been losing over the course of just ten days of the COVID-19 crisis. And given that not one but two vaccines have now turned out to be highly effective, the EU would have ended up with a surplus of high-quality doses, which it could have donated to some 300 million people across the developing world.

No single decision-maker bears the blame for Europe’s vaccination debacle. But this episode should make clear that EU member states were wrong to entrust the European Commission with the purchase of vaccines last summer. Article 5 of the Treaty on European Union subjects the EU to the Subsidiarity Principle, which leaves political actions up to member states, except in cases where supranational action can be proven to be more efficient. When it came to securing an ample supply of vaccines, this principle was willfully ignored. There is neither the legal necessity nor a convincing economic justification for central planning in the procurement of vaccines. Had member-state governments been able to buy vaccines independently and in direct competition with other countries worldwide, they might have had to pay a slightly higher price, but they would have placed their orders much earlier to avoid missing the boat. And if orders had been placed earlier, vaccine producers would have been able to invest more in expanding their production capacities."



Furthermore, the EU Ombudsman has now commenced an inquiry into the opaque way in which the Commission has contracted with vaccine suppliers, as detailed below in a press release from the Corporate Europe Observatory.

The European Ombudsman has today started investigating the European Commission's secrecy around its Covid-19 vaccine contracts with pharmaceutical companies and the negotiations that shaped these contracts [1]. This inquiry was sparked by complaints filed by Corporate Europe Observatory (CEO) earlier this month against the Commission's handling of two September 2020 Freedom of Information (FOI) requests. The Ombudsman has already contacted the Commission and asked for a response before 11 February.
The Ombudsman's inquiry covers two CEO complaints [2]:
1. A complaint against the Commission denying access to its Covid-19 vaccine contract with AstraZeneca, the first contract which the Commission signed last year. The Commission rejected our FOI request for disclosure of the contract, with reference to protecting the commercial interests of AstraZeneca and claiming there was no overriding public interest in transparency. Corporate Europe Observatory appealed this decision, but the Commission has failed to respond within the deadlines defined in the EU FOI legislation.
2. The Commission's refusal to disclose documents related to the vaccine negotiations, including notes of meetings and correspondence as well as the names of the members of the Joint Negotiation Team, which consists of seven experts designated by member states.
After months of growing pressure from MEPs [3] and civil society [4], the Commission has recently taken some first steps to improve transparency, but these have been shown to be haphazard and insufficient.
Earlier this month, the Commission invited MEPs to read a redacted version of the CureVac contract under strict conditions in a reading room. Surprisingly the Commission posted the redacted CureVac contract on its website earlier this week [5]. The five other contracts remain confidential, with neither MEPs nor the general public having any access to the texts. The CureVac contract shows that confidentiality was written into the contracts, giving the pharma companies a veto right (see article 11.6.1 onward). The contract also confirms fears that the lucrative advance purchase agreement (APAs) deals being negotiated in the dark would use public money to remove financial risk and liability from pharma companies developing Covid-19 vaccines.
All of this is without corresponding public interest conditions related to prices and availability, and despite the €2.8 billion public money already spent by the Commission on the development and advance purchase agreements for these vaccines.
The contract shows that the EU has gone very far in 'de-risking' Curevac's investments, but still failed to secure any rights in Curevac inventions or know-how funded under the contract [6]. Moreover, the contract indicates that EU governments, in specific scenarios, could end up paying indemnity for possible side-effects of the vaccine, but key parts of the text regarding this indemnity have been redacted.
Regarding the alarming message by World Health Organisation Director General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus on Monday on the "catastrophic moral failure" over vaccine distribution [7], it is shocking to learn that the doses bought by the EU cannot be passed on to low- and middle income countries without permission from CureVac.
The opaqueness of the vaccines negotiations risk expanding the corporate capture by Big Pharma of EU medicines policies. In September 2020 research by Corporate Europe Observatory [8] revealed how pharma industry lobbying was putting profit before an effective pandemic response. The research showed how Big Pharma, despite lofty PR statements about their commitment to tackling the coronavirus pandemic, is lobbying intensively to protect its problematic, profit-maximising business-model, partly based on public money with no strings attached and excessive monopoly patent rules.
Olivier Hoedeman, researcher at Corporate Europe Observatory, said: "Four months ago we submitted FOI requests to throw light on the EU's Covid-19 vaccine deal negotiations with Big Pharma, but instead of transparency, the European Commission chose delay tactics and secrecy. Transparency is crucial for informed public debate, democratic accountability, and public trust. The Ombudsman's investigation is great news and will hopefully result in a much-needed breakthrough."
Viviana Galli, Coordinator at European Alliance for Responsible R&D and Affordable Medicines, said: "The lack of transparency undermines trust in the institutions and science, which is fundamental in current times. Secrecy and the need to ask private companies for disclosure authorisation are unjustified where considerable amounts of public funds have been invested in research and development and used to conclude these deals. Exchanges with companies and the contracts should be disclosed in their entirety for public scrutiny and to ensure that the public interest has been protected."
Yannis Natsis, Policy Manager for Universal Access & Affordable Medicines, European Public Health Alliance (EPHA) said: "European governments and the Commission must stop beating around the bush and publish all contracts and exchanges with companies as soon as possible. The success story of the EU Covid-19 vaccines procurement strategy is seriously undermined by the secrecy imposed by pharma companies and condoned by the EU and its members. The Ombudsman's inquiry proves that the demand for public accountability is only getting louder and stronger."


As for lending myself any authority, that comment probably says more about you than about me.

I try to use hard facts or evidence to substantiate my views or rebut arguments and statements which I believe are inaccurate, which isn't always the case here or on any similar forum, in fairness.

But enough of that, you look after yourself in the months ahead. Stay safe and keep smiling.
 
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They couldn't, though.
27 member states (all bar the UK) signed up to EU collective bargaining for vaccine supply and a common approval process.
In those 2 sentences you’ve literally just made a contradiction. Ha ha ha

fecking hell Plymouth have a think, the UK were in the EU at the time of that collective bargaining, the UK chose not to be part of it, a choice that was open to every member state.

So yes they could, obviously.
 

Plymouth Red

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In those 2 sentences you’ve literally just made a contradiction. Ha ha ha

fecking hell Plymouth have a think, the UK were in the EU at the time of that collective bargaining, the UK chose not to be part of it, a choice that was open to every member state.

So yes they could, obviously.
Some other words seem to have appeared in your response, which is a mystery to me. Anyway, moving on, you've probably seen I also posted this.

"Regulus responded to this comment from Vidic blood and sand

'You know that brexit enabled the government to order the vaccines early, get it approved, and start vaccinating.'

The vaccines we are buying cannot be negotiated individually by the other 27 states. They can go elsewhere such as Russia or China, but the EU centrally are approving and buying the ones the UK is using. We chose to go it alone and it has paid off in terms of the approval process, quantities and delivery dates for our vaccine supply.

These are facts, not opinions."

You don't support my view, I don't agree with yours. That's fine and dandy. If nothing else, I have given you a moment to have a laugh.

Keep up the good work.
 
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Some other words seem to have appeared in your response, which is a mystery to me. Anyway, moving on, you've probably seen I also posted this.

"Regulus responded to this comment from Vidic blood and sand

'You know that brexit enabled the government to order the vaccines early, get it approved, and start vaccinating.'

The vaccines we are buying cannot be negotiated individually by the other 27 states. They can go elsewhere such as Russia or China, but the EU centrally are approving and buying the ones the UK is using. We chose to go it alone and it has paid off in terms of the approval process, quantities and delivery dates for our vaccine supply.

These are facts, not opinions."

You don't support my view, I don't agree with yours. That's fine and dandy. If nothing else, I have given you a moment to have a laugh.

Keep up the good work.
Are you being purposely stupid here? The UK was part of the EU but chose not to be a part of the EU collective bargaining. The choice was open to every member state, no EU law forced any member state to sign up to that collective-bargaining.

Get it yet? They all had a choice to do what the UK did.

What you appear to mean is that no EU country can now decide to do what the UK is because they have already signed an agreement. No shit.

Make no mistake though, all EU countries did have the choice to do what the UK did, but chose not to. it has feck all to do with Brexit or no Brexit.
 
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do.ob

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I'm truly puzzled by your reaction.

I'm using a quote from a respected German newspaper to illustrate that within EU countries, there is a growing feeling that the Commission has let its citizens down by the tardy manner in which they have gone about the procurement of vaccines. The author chooses to highlight non-EU countries including the UK as examples of governments which have been ahead of the game in comparison to the EU.

I used Bild because I happened to read the about the article today on the Guido Fawkes website, which is part of my daily reading.
Except Bild isn't a respected news paper, it's gutter press that hasn't (intentionally) published an intellectually honest article in their entire history. Much like the sun they prey on the uneducated by dumbing things down to a level where they can sell everything as a scandal and the same is quite visible in the translation you are using. Though I guess looking at where you got that from it's no accident that this is deemed "respectable".

However, there are other examples of unease in Europe such as this article from the Project Syndicate website, written on Jan 18, 2021 by HANS-WERNER SINN in Munich


As for lending myself any authority, that comment probably says more about you than about me.

I try to use hard facts or evidence to substantiate my views or rebut arguments and statements which I believe are inaccurate, which isn't always the case here or on any similar forum, in fairness.

But enough of that, you look after yourself in the months ahead. Stay safe and keep smiling.
I have no problem with honest criticism like that piece from HW Sinn, but trying to make points via Bild is quite the opposite of hard facts and evidence. It's being a sucker, who gets herded like cattle for clicks and influence by these publications.
 
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I have no problem with honest criticism like that piece from HW Sinn, but trying to make points via Bild is quite the opposite of hard facts and evidence. It's being a sucker, who gets herded like cattle for clicks and influence by these publications.
There is no question that there are arguments to be made and criticisms of the EU collective bargaining approach.

The stupidity comes into it when people try to claim that the EU states couldn’t have done whatever the hell they wanted, they could, but they chose to do it together.

The fact that some people are trying to use this as some kind of Brexit win is beyond stupid.
The UK government has been beyond horrific during this Corona crisis so I’m happy that they seem to have gotten this correct, and I sincerely hope the AZ vaccine is better than some fear in older people and that the 12 week wait is a great gamble.
Speed of vaccine approach will matter very little in the end anyway I’m sure, the UK will still have probably the worst numbers in Europe for a large population, so it’s especially important that they get this right.
 

JPRouve

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There is no question that there are arguments to be made and criticisms of the EU collective bargaining approach.

The stupidity comes into it when people try to claim that the EU states couldn’t have done whatever the hell they wanted, they could, but they chose to do it together.

The fact that some people are trying to use this as some kind of Brexit win is beyond stupid.
The UK government has been beyond horrific during this Corona crisis so I’m happy that they seem to have gotten this correct, and I sincerely hope the AZ vaccine is better than some fear in older people and that the 12 we wait is a great gamble.
Speed of vaccine approach will matter very little in the end anyway I’m sure, the UK still have probably the worst in Europe for a large population.
The obvious criticism being that they shouldn't have touched the initial agreement made by Germany, France, Italy and Netherlands who initially did their own thing. Any subsequent EU level deal should have been additional.
 
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The obvious criticism being that they shouldn't have touched the initial agreement made by Germany, France, Italy and Netherlands who initially did their own thing. Any subsequent EU level deal should have been additional.
Yup.

But what Plymouth needs to realise is that Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands chose to go with the EU collective, they could’ve continued on the route they were on and go it alone just as the UK did.
It may well have been better for them and looking right now it’s hard to argue against that, but it was a choice, not an opportunity due to Brexit.
 

NinjaFletch

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The obvious criticism being that they shouldn't have touched the initial agreement made by Germany, France, Italy and Netherlands who initially did their own thing. Any subsequent EU level deal should have been additional.
I guess the point of the collective agreement is there's no point France Germany and Italy fighting with each other for supply when their economies and borders are so intermingled. If you don't make that the basis then you end up i the potential scenario where, for example, Germany is vaccinating teenagers and France hasn't got enough for the most vulnerable.

From an intellectual, even ethical, standpoint there's not much wrong with that approach. If anything, I think the world would have been better off with a global coordinated response rather than what we are doing. Unfortunately, the EU's approach also shows the drawbacks of the more collaborative approach.
 

JPRouve

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I guess the point of the collective agreement is there's no point France Germany and Italy fighting with each other for supply when their economies and borders are so intermingled. If you don't make that the basis then you end up i the potential scenario where, for example, Germany is vaccinating teenagers and France hasn't got enough for the most vulnerable.

From an intellectual, even ethical, standpoint there's not much wrong with that approach. If anything, I think the world would have been better off with a global coordinated response rather than what we are doing. Unfortunately, the EU's approach also shows the drawbacks of the more collaborative approach.
You may have misunderstood my point. France, Germany, Italy and Netherlands went together without the rest of the EU. My understanding is that their goal was to purchase vaccines quickly and resell them to the rest.
 

Plymouth Red

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Except Bild isn't a respected news paper, it's gutter press that hasn't (intentionally) published an intellectually honest article in their entire history. Much like the sun they prey on the uneducated by dumbing things down to a level where they can sell everything as a scandal and the same is quite visible in the translation you are using. Though I guess looking at where you got that from it's no accident that this is deemed "respectable".



I have no problem with honest criticism like that piece from HW Sinn, but trying to make points via Bild is quite the opposite of hard facts and evidence. It's being a sucker, who gets herded like cattle for clicks and influence by these publications.
I'm not German, don't speak German and have no opinion about Bild's tone. I could have equally pointed to this article from Der Spiegel. Is that a publication to be respected and trusted? The ar5icle's a good read but you may think it's untrustworthy too.

I also feel compelled to speak up for the Sun. A cracking newspaper that carries some of the most insightful socio-economic commentary you can find today. And the crossword is very good too.
 

NinjaFletch

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You may have misunderstood my point. France, Germany, Italy and Netherlands went together without the rest of the EU. My understanding is that their goal was to purchase vaccines quickly and resale them to the rest.
Ah, fair enough. I thought you were saying they'd made their own purchase agreements for themselves which had subsequently been cancelled.

At any rate, take the second half as support for the general point about the sense of a collective approach for the EU. An approach which, sadly, has been bungled.
 

vidic blood & sand

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The UK was following all EU regulations until the end of last year and chose to act independently, not that they could do so because of Brexit - any of the other countries in the EU could have done the same. Brexit had zero to do with it.
Once again this is complete nonsense. The EU had a vaccine strategy that they unleased on EU member states. They waited for the European commission to approve the vaccines before they could be used.
Each European country had the option to order their own supply, but of course, like obedient children they disastrously relied on the EU manage the situation.
If Cameron or Blair were primeminister, and we were still shackled to the EU, we'd be way behind in the vaccination process like the rest of Europe.
 
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If Cameron or Blair were primeminister, and we were still shackled to the EU, we'd be way behind in the vaccination process like the rest of Europe.
Instead the UK have the worst death rate in Europe for a decent size population, despite a year of constant measures being changed on a daily basis and three lockdowns. It doesn’t matter how fast vaccines are done in Europe, the UK will likely have that at the end of all this too.

Thank God Cameron or Blair aren’t in control, this current Tory government is just the best at Covid.
 

vidic blood & sand

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Instead the UK have the worst death rate in Europe for a decent size population, and it doesn’t matter how fast vaccines are done in Europe, the UK will likely have that at the end of all this too.

Thank God Cameron or Blair aren’t in control, this current Tory government is just the best at Covid.

Boris is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. I was critical of the government last year for not stopping flights from northern Italy and china. That was totally crazy.
Since then I've sympathized with the dilemma the government faces with saving as many lives as possible, while also dealing with the impact on businesses and education.
The government got things wrong, but they've also acted well in other ways.
 

Paul the Wolf

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Once again this is complete nonsense. The EU had a vaccine strategy that they unleased on EU member states. They waited for the European commission to approve the vaccines before they could be used.
Each European country had the option to order their own supply, but of course, like obedient children they disastrously relied on the EU manage the situation.
If Cameron or Blair were primeminister, and we were still shackled to the EU, we'd be way behind in the vaccination process like the rest of Europe.
The UK was following EU regulations so were they the naughty children, or the obedient children and as so many people have pointed out any EU state (including the UK even though they had left the EU in name only but not in reality) could have chosen to do the same as the UK. They didn't have to wait EU approval either, they chose to.

The argument is not who had the right strategy, the argument is that Brexit had nothing to do with the choice the UK made.

Why do Brexiters have to lie about everything?
Is it because they have to find something to justify a catastrophic mistake they will soon regret.
 

The Firestarter

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I also feel compelled to speak up for the Sun. A cracking newspaper that carries some of the most insightful socio-economic commentary you can find today. And the crossword is very good too.
Surely this is some form of a joke that misses the white text, right?
 

JPRouve

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Ah, fair enough. I thought you were saying they'd made their own purchase agreements for themselves which had subsequently been cancelled.

At any rate, take the second half as support for the general point about the sense of a collective approach for the EU. An approach which, sadly, has been bungled.
The collective approach isn't a EU thing though which is sometimes misunderstood from a british POV. The reality of for example Germany, France, Italy and Netherland is that we need each others, France is a hub for western Europe, Germany in the industrial heart, Netherland is our main entry and exit to the world and Italy is important from an agricultural standpoint. Ignoring each others would be akin to shoot in our own feet and that's regardless of the EU, even if the EU didn't exist we would still do it because we have to, that's why the Treaty of Rome was created in the first place.

And since we are in the Brexit thread, that's an important distinction with the UK. On the continent we know that we need each others despite the bickerings that sometimes happen, the reality is that we can't do without each others. Our borders are too long to be closed and our economies are too interdependent to be separated.
 
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Boris is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. I was critical of the government last year for not stopping flights from northern Italy and china. That was totally crazy.
Since then I've sympathized with the dilemma the government faces with saving as many lives as possible, while also dealing with the impact on businesses and education.
The government got things wrong, but they've also acted well in other ways.
Honestly mate except for this vaccine strategy, the UK has had probably the worst coronavirus response in Europe. Utterly horrific, it’s been an absolute cluster feck; has been almost impossible to people to follow with new rules getting added every single day, the “travel corridors” when unmitigated disaster that didn’t work, and despite all of this, still utterly terrible numbers compared to the rest of the continent.

But if you’re happy, good on you man.
 

Buster15

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I think it’s still important to debate though, especially when the campaign and the current government have told a lot of lies to people and sold ideas with half truths and falsehoods.
otherwise when the next GE rolls around people still dont question what they are being told in campaigns and the Tory lie machine rolls on. The public need to kill this culture of political lies
Now that I completely agree with.
And the lies are not just the odd one or two. The government ethos has become a compulsive lying machine. And Boris is the ring leader.
His grasp of the important issues is very poor indeed. And in order to try to hide this deficiency, he speaks quicker and says the first thing that comes to mind.
This behaviour is totally reprehensible. But I fear will not be held to account because of the highly gullible or disinterested majority.
 

Virgil

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Yup.

But what Plymouth needs to realise is that Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands chose to go with the EU collective, they could’ve continued on the route they were on and go it alone just as the UK did.
It may well have been better for them and looking right now it’s hard to argue against that, but it was a choice, not an opportunity due to Brexit.
Personally I think its a wee bit disingenuous to claim that Brexit had nothing to do with the U.K. going it alone in securing its vaccine supplies. Strictly speaking you are right in that any of the 27 could have gone their own way but without doubt that would have been against the spirit of the EU and put the 27 in direct competition with each other in attempting to secure supplies which would hardly have be seen as promoting unity or a good advert for the project. That the U.K. went alone I suspect had much to do with the reality that we were leaving the EU and at the time of placing our orders there was no guarantee that any vaccine would be either successful or in production before we had officially left.
 
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Virgil

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Honestly mate except for this vaccine strategy, the UK has had probably the worst coronavirus response in Europe. Utterly horrific, it’s been an absolute cluster feck; has been almost impossible to people to follow with new rules getting added every single day, the “travel corridors” when unmitigated disaster that didn’t work, and despite all of this, still utterly terrible numbers compared to the rest of the continent.

But if you’re happy, good on you man.
And whilst I am at it if I were you at this stage I would be a tad more considered iin deciding who comes out of this the worst in the long run. If I am honest I am playing devils advocate here for I do believe our figures are likely to be the direst in Europe but I will posit the following scenario which is not beyond the realm of possibility. Let’s assume the U.K. has got the vaccine roll out right and let’s then further assume that the target to get groups 1 to 4 vaccinated is achieved by mid February. That could mean that by mid March the U.K. might have the pandemic under control whereas the rest of Europe could still be struggling to vaccinate the most vulnerable if the rumours regarding lack of vaccine are to be believed. If those ‘ifs’ did materialise what price then as to who will fare the worst.
 

vidic blood & sand

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The UK was following EU regulations so were they the naughty children, or the obedient children and as so many people have pointed out any EU state (including the UK even though they had left the EU in name only but not in reality) could have chosen to do the same as the UK. They didn't have to wait EU approval either, they chose to.

The argument is not who had the right strategy, the argument is that Brexit had nothing to do with the choice the UK made.

Why do Brexiters have to lie about everything?
Is it because they have to find something to justify a catastrophic mistake they will soon regret.

What would you expect Europe to do? Ignore the EU as an authority in this situation?
Why not just ignore the EU completely in every situation?

Thank God the UK did!
 
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Personally I think its a wee bit disingenuous to claim that Brexit had nothing to do with the U.K. going it alone in securing its vaccine supplies. Strictly speaking you are right in that any of the 27 could have gone their own way but without doubt that would have been against the spirit of the EU and put the 27 in direct competition with each other in attempting to secure supplies which would hardly have be seen as promoting unity or a good advert for the project. That the U.K. went alone I suspect had much to do with the reality that we were leaving the EU and at the time of placing our orders there was no guarantee that any vaccine would be either successful or in production before we had officially left.
Yeah erm, absolutely none of that has anything to do with my argument. Cheers though.

I’ll say this to you, when the likes of Ireland, Finland Denmark and other countries were closing their borders and locking down their societies was that not also against the spirit of the EU?

I think you’re giving the “spirit of the EU” too much credence here, the corona responses from all different countries in the block have been so different, none of them have given a shit about what the EU says or what it’s neighbour wants.

More likely is that they believed it was the right thing to do at the time, especially as it would stop them from competing against themselves and outbidding the poorer countries in the block.
 
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What would you expect Europe to do? Ignore the EU as an authority in this situation?
Why not just ignore the EU completely in every situation?

Thank God the UK did!
When the UK government was dithering around in March and most other EU governments were taking strict action and closing their borders, against the will of the EU, whilst the UK kept theirs open, yes they absolutely can and have ignored the EU during this pandemic when they believe it is for the best.
 

vidic blood & sand

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When the UK government was dithering around in March and most other EU governments were taking strict action and closing their borders, against the will of the EU, whilst the UK kept theirs open, yes they absolutely can and have ignored the EU during this pandemic when they believe it is for the best.
That's a fair point, which I also acknowledged a few posts up.
 

Paul the Wolf

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France - can't win anything with Swedish turnips
What would you expect Europe to do? Ignore the EU as an authority in this situation?
Why not just ignore the EU completely in every situation?

Thank God the UK did!
How could the UK ignore it if it was an EU authority , they were still following EU regulations.
What about Covid lockdown strategies, France don't have the same rules as Germany or the UK or Spain, they all have different strategies not something imposed on them by some invisible superbeing. I know some people have been brainwashed in the UK into thinking that the EU decides every single law.
 
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That's a fair point, which I also acknowledged a few posts up.
The whole point is the EU have asked for several things during this pandemic and most countries have just done whatever the feck they want. Sometimes it has been successful in countries and kept numbers low, sometimes it has been a cluster feck.

All countries had the opportunity to do just as they were doing throughout the whole pandemic, whatever the feck they felt like.

I’m more amazed that after this last year you actually think the EU has any real sway on what countries do during this pandemic. If anything the pandemic has shown how little control the EU has over its member states in reality in crisis situations. Control has basically been at zero.
 
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It’s also worth adding that a collaborated EU response to the entire band pandemic would’ve been the best thing for all of Europe.
I’m sure all of us can agree on that?

I know for example that lots of neighbouring countries were angry with how their neighbours acted at the beginning of the pandemic, not least Ireland with the UK response.
If the EU and UK had come together in February and decided to take strict action in collaboration, we would almost certainly have better figures than we do today.
That collaboration was never possible because the EU had feck all control, it completely showed up and undermined the idea that the EU is some kind of controlling authority. It absolutely is not, certainly not in a crisis anyway.

Almost funny that the collaborated vaccine response has then ended up being the one that looks the most clumsy, complete vice versa.