Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[vidic blood & sand]

How could the UK ignore it if it was an EU authority , they were still following EU regulations.
What about Covid lockdown strategies, France don't have the same rules as Germany or the UK or Spain, they all have different strategies not something imposed on them by some invisible superbeing. I know some people have been brainwashed in the UK into thinking that the EU decides every single law.

The EU left it to each individual nations to decide their own counter measures, as each nation was being affected in different varying degrees. Regarding the vaccines, however, that's another story.
EU states relied on the EU commission, who themselves were waiting on the ok from the EMA as the approval authority. The UK gave it's own approval, and was criticized for it by the EU, who said that the UK's approval process was not as thorough.
So the simple question is, why did the other nations rely on the EU? Because they were pulling together and showing solidarity in a crisis.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

So the simple question is, why did the other nations rely on the EU? Because they were pulling together and showing solidarity in a crisis.

Probably because it’s best for all of us if the entire continent gets vaccinated rather than the rich first and the poor to the back of the queue.
The other option is holidays in Bognor for the foreseeable.
Why is this a controversial thing? It seems like the moral thing to do, so surely you understand why they chose to do so? Even if it ends up being a clumsier alternative to get up and running.

It just feels a bit odd to slag off say Germany for not just shitting on the poorer countries and going alone with it’s financial muscle.
I’m not really comfortable with the idea of “look how rich we are and how we don’t give zero fecks about the rest” attitude that this seems to promote.

In a similar way I’m not comfortable with Israel and UAE using an incredible amount of vaccines already on the non risk groups that could be used in poorer countries.

It’s a weird moral debate to find a “win” in.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

Those who are demanding to

The whole point is the EU have asked for several things during this pandemic and most countries have just done whatever the feck they want. Sometimes it has been successful in countries and kept numbers low, sometimes it has been a cluster feck.

All countries had the opportunity to do just as they were doing throughout the whole pandemic, whatever the feck they felt like.

I’m more amazed that after this last year you actually think the EU has any real sway on what countries do during this pandemic. If anything the pandemic has shown how little control the EU has over its member states in reality in crisis situations. Control has basically been at zero.

As far as trying to hold back the spread of the pandemic, the EU has not asserted itself as an authority, this is true. I would not be surprised, though, if there were regulations being drawn up in the event of future outbreaks. We'll see.

 

[Plymouth Red]

Surely this is some form of a joke that misses the white text, right?

What white text? Why would someone use a colour that you can't see? How's that meant to work?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

As far as trying to hold back the spread of the pandemic, the EU has not asserted itself as an authority, this is true. I would not be surprised, though, if there were regulations being drawn up in the event of future outbreaks. We'll see.

You’d bloody well hope so.

It didn’t just “not assert” itself, it was proven to have absolutely sod all power in a crisis. Borders and everything within them are controlled by the countries government in a crisis, not question about that at all.

 

[NinjaFletch]

The collective approach isn't a EU thing though which is sometimes misunderstood from a british POV. The reality of for example Germany, France, Italy and Netherland is that we need each others, France is a hub for western Europe, Germany in the industrial heart, Netherland is our main entry and exit to the world and Italy is important from an agricultural standpoint. Ignoring each others would be akin to shoot in our own feet and that's regardless of the EU, even if the EU didn't exist we would still do it because we have to, that's why the Treaty of Rome was created in the first place.

And since we are in the Brexit thread, that's an important distinction with the UK. On the continent we know that we need each others despite the bickerings that sometimes happen, the reality is that we can't do without each others. Our borders are too long to be closed and our economies are too interdependent to be separated.

Well I'm not sure I share your optimism that the national bickering would have been avoided without the EU! You're right though it's a pointless hypothetical because the EU was a creation of the conditions and understanding that collaboration was needed. Which, at any rate, is the point. There's no point France having 100% of people vaccinated and Germany having 5%; to a lesser extent, but still to an extent, that's true for the UK, too. It's all well and good Brexiteers rubbing their hands together and pointing towards the EU's vaccination issues as a Brexit win, but continued pain in the Eurozone is bad for the UK too.

 

[Kentonio]

What white text? Why would someone use a colour that you can't see? How's that meant to work?

You joined in 2004 and don't know white text?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The EU left it to each individual nations to decide their own counter measures, as each nation was being affected in different varying degrees. Regarding the vaccines, however, that's another story.
EU states relied on the EU commission, who themselves were waiting on the ok from the EMA as the approval authority. The UK gave it's own approval, and was criticized for it by the EU, who said that the UK's approval process was not as thorough.
So the simple question is, why did the other nations rely on the EU? Because they were pulling together and showing solidarity in a crisis.

Yes but it was their choice, that's the point, they were not forced into it.
As I said it was not because of the EU that the UK did or did not order or approve vaccines - they could have stayed in the EU and done exactly the same thing.

Who was right or wrong in their strategy regarding lockdowns or vaccines is not what I'm talking about, it's whether countries had a choice, which they did.
You would hope the whole world helps each other in such a crisis.

 

[JPRouve]

Well I'm not sure I share your optimism that the national bickering would have been avoided without the EU! You're right though it's a pointless hypothetical because the EU was a creation of the conditions and understanding that collaboration was needed. Which, at any rate, is the point. There's no point France having 100% of people vaccinated and Germany having 5%; to a lesser extent, but still to an extent, that's true for the UK, too. It's all well and good Brexiteers rubbing their hands together and pointing towards the EU's vaccination issues as a Brexit win, but continued pain in the Eurozone is bad for the UK too.

Hey! I didn't say that. We are still bickering at every opportunity with the EU.

 

[calodo2003]

Why do people bother with this guy? Look what he said all the way back in 2016

This was aggressive, willful, purposeful ignorance. How could someone be this daft?

 

[Plymouth Red]

You joined in 2004 and don't know white text?

Correct. Unless, of course, someone sent me instructions on how to use it, but typed in white. Is it a sort of Top Reds ninja trick that only a few posters like Reggie can use?

 

[Virgil]

Probably because it’s best for all of us if the entire continent gets vaccinated rather than the rich first and the poor to the back of the queue.
The other option is holidays in Bognor for the foreseeable.
Why is this a controversial thing? It seems like the moral thing to do, so surely you understand why they chose to do so? Even if it ends up being a clumsier alternative to get up and running.

It just feels a bit odd to slag off say Germany for not just shitting on the poorer countries and going alone with it’s financial muscle.
I’m not really comfortable with the idea of “look how rich we are and how we don’t give zero fecks about the rest” attitude that this seems to promote.

In a similar way I’m not comfortable with Israel and UAE using an incredible amount of vaccines already on the non risk groups that could be used in poorer countries.

It’s a weird moral debate to find a “win” in.

And just how does that square with the EU saying that vaccines manufactured in the EU not being able to leave the bloc without authorisation. Talk about not shitting on poorer countries when the EU seem as if they are prepared to spread excrement across the world unless their own are protected first.

 

[Plymouth Red]

Germany repeated that it will receive more doses of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine outside the EU's joint vaccination program — but the Commission refuses to acknowledge that this contradicts the bloc's deal.

Hanno Kautz, the spokesperson for the German health ministry, confirmed at a press conference that Germany "will receive around 60 million vaccine doses from BioNTech from EU contracts, and 30 million from bilateral contracts or agreements ... in total, 90 million this year. This is something we have done independently of the EU treaties."

Germany secured 30 million doses of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine in September, violating the EU's vaccination strategy banning countries from conducting parallel negotiations.

Less than two hours before Kautz's statement, Commission President Ursula von der Leyen confirmed that countries cannot sign separate deals.

“It’s legally binding,” she said. “We have all agreed, legally binding, that there will be no parallel negotiations, no parallel contracts … We’re all working together.”

Meanwhile, Stephen Donnelly, Irish Minister for Health was rebuffed publicly when he suggested that Ireland should bring in some supplies of the AstraZeneca/Oxford COVID vaccine in anticipation of its approval by the European Medicines Agency.

The Irish Government was sharply told by the Commission that this would not be permitted.

As (I think) they say in Berlin, with a slightly sardonic smile, 'Die Ironie des Ganzen'.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

And just how does that square with the EU saying that vaccines manufactured in the EU not being able to leave the bloc without authorisation. Talk about not shitting on poorer countries when the EU seem as if they are prepared to spread excrement across the world unless their own are protected first.

I’d say it shows a massive distrust in pharmaceutical companies not to prioritise the highest bidder, a consequence of the AZ/Pfizer cuts, the lack of transparency and the quite frankly absurd numbers vaccinated in places like Israel.

A penny for @Pogue Mahone’s thought on it?

 

[F-Red]

I’d say it shows a massive distrust in pharmaceutical companies not to prioritise the highest bidder, a consequence of the AZ/Pfizer cuts, the lack of transparency and the quite frankly absurd numbers vaccinated in places like Israel.

A penny for @Pogue Mahone’s thought on it?

Israel made a deal with Pfizer to give them data access on the vaccination programme in return for uninterrupted supply. It's a small country, so the speed of the delivery doesn't seem absurd.

https://www.ft.com/content/3aae4345-46cc-4636-a3f9-a93a6762f87f

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Israel made a deal with Pfizer to give them data access on the vaccination programme in return for uninterrupted supply. It's a small country, so the speed of the delivery doesn't seem absurd.

https://www.ft.com/content/3aae4345-46cc-4636-a3f9-a93a6762f87f

It’s not the speed, it’s that many people taking vaccines from much more vulnerable people is what’s absurd.

From a moral standpoint it’s deplorable.

Inevitable it would end up a race rather than the World working together to get it to those most in need first, but you know, humans.

 

[africanspur]

It’s not the speed, it’s that many people taking vaccines from much more vulnerable people is what’s absurd.

From a moral standpoint it’s deplorable.

Inevitable it would end up a race rather than the World working together to get it to those most in need first, but you know, humans.

It's already deplorable. Let's not pretend the EU is a moral shining beacon in this case. They, just like, Israel, the UK, USA, Canada etc will vaccinate huge swathes of their populations, potentially all of them before they start giving away vaccines to the global South. If it wasn't for Covax, they'd be even more fecked.

Everyone is acting with self interest here.

 

[The Firestarter]

It's already deplorable. Let's not pretend the EU is a moral shining beacon in this case. They, just like, Israel, the UK, USA, Canada etc will vaccinate huge swathes of their populations, potentially all of them before they start giving away vaccines to the global South. If it wasn't for Covax, they'd be even more fecked.

Everyone is acting with self interest here.

If you think a country or a union of countries is not going to protect their citizens first , then you are placing far too much hope on the human natute. It is the reason why countries exist. Would be great if society was stateless , but we are a good several centuries away from that.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It's already deplorable. Let's not pretend the EU is a moral shining beacon in this case.

I’m not, absolutely not.

 

[Cheimoon]

It's already deplorable. Let's not pretend the EU is a moral shining beacon in this case. They, just like, Israel, the UK, USA, Canada etc will vaccinate huge swathes of their populations, potentially all of them before they start giving away vaccines to the global South. If it wasn't for Covax, they'd be even more fecked.

Everyone is acting with self interest here.

Completely agree. COVAX sounded good when it was first introduced, but there is now a good chance a lot of countries supposedly covered under COVAX will receive zero or very few doses in 2021. Those are also places that tend to have smaller percentages of workers that can work from home, have weaker health systems, and so on - and hence need the vaccines more than the EU, UK, US, and Canada to prevent their economies from plummeting or health systems from breaking down.

Not that humanity has ever been very good at global solidarity of course, but it's always sad to see.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

If you think a country or a union of countries is not going to protect their citizens first , then you are placing far too much hope on the human natute. It is the reason why countries exist. Would be great if society was stateless , but we are a good several centuries away from that.

Yup.

 

[do.ob]

Germany repeated that it will receive more doses of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine outside the EU's joint vaccination program — but the Commission refuses to acknowledge that this contradicts the bloc's deal.

Hanno Kautz, the spokesperson for the German health ministry, confirmed at a press conference that Germany "will receive around 60 million vaccine doses from BioNTech from EU contracts, and 30 million from bilateral contracts or agreements ... in total, 90 million this year. This is something we have done independently of the EU treaties."

Germany secured 30 million doses of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine in September, violating the EU's vaccination strategy banning countries from conducting parallel negotiations.

Less than two hours before Kautz's statement, Commission President Ursula von der Leyen confirmed that countries cannot sign separate deals.

“It’s legally binding,” she said. “We have all agreed, legally binding, that there will be no parallel negotiations, no parallel contracts … We’re all working together.”

Meanwhile, Stephen Donnelly, Irish Minister for Health was rebuffed publicly when he suggested that Ireland should bring in some supplies of the AstraZeneca/Oxford COVID vaccine in anticipation of its approval by the European Medicines Agency.

The Irish Government was sharply told by the Commission that this would not be permitted.

As (I think) they say in Berlin, with a slightly sardonic smile, 'Die Ironie des Ganzen'.

If you're quoting three week old articles, maybe don't stop halfway through?

A Commission official said on Thursday that Germany's deal with BioNTech/Pfizer did not violate the terms of the strategy "in spirit" as the country's doses would come after orders from the Commission had been filled.


Kautz echoed this sentiment Friday in Berlin, even saying the deal is "compatible with the EU agreements."


"No other EU member will receive vaccines from BioNTech, for example, at a later date ... just because Germany has a guarantee for additional vaccines," he said.

And here's the link you forgot to include:
https://www.politico.eu/article/ger...de-deal-at-odds-with-legally-binding-eu-pact/

 

[The Firestarter]

If you're quoting three week old articles, maybe don't stop halfway through?

A Commission official said on Thursday that Germany's deal with BioNTech/Pfizer did not violate the terms of the strategy "in spirit" as the country's doses would come after orders from the Commission had been filled.


Kautz echoed this sentiment Friday in Berlin, even saying the deal is "compatible with the EU agreements."


"No other EU member will receive vaccines from BioNTech, for example, at a later date ... just because Germany has a guarantee for additional vaccines," he said.

And here's the link you forgot to include:
https://www.politico.eu/article/ger...de-deal-at-odds-with-legally-binding-eu-pact/

Maybe he tried to quote the rest as white text, but failed?

 

[africanspur]

If you think a country or a union of countries is not going to protect their citizens first , then you are placing far too much hope on the human natute. It is the reason why countries exist. Would be great if society was stateless , but we are a good several centuries away from that.

I don't think that society is like that at all.

I think its weird that people will criticise certain places for hoarding vaccine doses and not others. You best believe the EU will be getting jabs into every single arm that wants it before they'll start donating to other countries. Same as the UK, same as USA, same as Australia, Israel and SK and Japan when they start too.

The optics of fit and healthy 30 year old Germans, Italians and Brits getting their jab before a 60 year old Rwandan is just as despicable as it is for an Israeli or Emirati.

There's no morality here, its fecking shite and especially burns for someone who's entire extended family is from the global South.

@Regulus Arcturus Black fair enough.

 

[The Firestarter]

I don't think that society is like that at all.

I think its weird that people will criticise certain places for hoarding vaccine doses and not others. You best believe the EU will be getting jabs into every single arm that wants it before they'll start donating to other countries. Same as the UK, same as USA, same as Australia, Israel and SK and Japan when they start too.

The optics of fit and healthy 30 year old Germans, Italians and Brits getting their jab before a 60 year old Rwandan is just as despicable as it is for an Israeli or Emirati.

There's no morality here, its fecking shite and especially burns for someone who's entire extended family is from the global South.

@Regulus Arcturus Black fair enough.

What would be despicable if certain countries begin sitting on vaccines even if they have enough to vaccinate everyone (or >= 70%).

Btw, I dont agree with the Israeli aproach. Palestine is not a country, and as an occupying force on that territory the Israelis should be vaccinating them as well - it would be beneficial for both parties.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The optics of fit and healthy 30 year old Germans, Italians and Brits getting their jab before a 60 year old Rwandan is just as despicable as it is for an Israeli or Emirati.

There's no morality here, its fecking shite and especially burns for someone who's entire extended family is from the global South.

@Regulus Arcturus Black fair enough.

It’s horrific, my only point was that the European situation would be more horrific if Germany or France were flexing their financial power over Greece, Poland etc. So I find it difficult to “blame” them for not going alone or big up the UK for vaccinating like crazy.
It’s all a bit minging in it?

 

[africanspur]

It’s horrific, my only point was that the European situation would be more horrific if Germany or France were flexing their financial power over Greece, Poland etc. So I find it difficult to “blame” them for not going alone or big up the UK for vaccinating like crazy.
It’s all a bit minging in it?

Yeah fair enough mate, I agree. Like I said, I don't blame the EU approach or indeed any of the approaches, it is sadly human nature.

But like you said, I can find it pretty shite overall.

What would be despicable if certain countries begin sitting on vaccines even if they have enough to vaccinate everyone (or >= 70%).

Btw, I dont agree with the Israeli aproach. Palestine is not a country, and as an occupying force on that territory the Israelis should be vaccinating them as well - it would be beneficial for both parties.

Struggling to see what this has to do with my post or how this means what the EU and UK and USA are doing isn't also despicable?

 

[africanspur]

Completely agree. COVAX sounded good when it was first introduced, but there is now a good chance a lot of countries supposedly covered under COVAX will receive zero or very few doses in 2021. Those are also places that tend to have smaller percentages of workers that can work from home, have weaker health systems, and so on - and hence need the vaccines more than the EU, UK, US, and Canada to prevent their economies from plummeting or health systems from breaking down.

Not that humanity has ever been very good at global solidarity of course, but it's always sad to see.

Yep really sad to see and you're totally right. I said in another thread that we're lucky in a way the pandemic happened now with the vaccine tech we have, as well as the ability to work from home for so many.

The reality of course is that's an incredibly western centric thing for me to say. Most people in middle and lower income countries are not able to work from home in any reasonable way and they either work or they end up starving.

Anyway, apologies, I don't think this has much to do with Brexit anymore.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Oof. EU unilaterally triggers Article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol to try and prevent vaccines being exported across the Irish border into NI.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55864442

That's a pretty major provocation from the EU, and I'm very surprised they wanted to set that precedent so early on.

 

[golden_blunder]

Christ it’s shaping up like Star Wars with the trade wars

 

[JPRouve]

Yep really sad to see and you're totally right. I said in another thread that we're lucky in a way the pandemic happened now with the vaccine tech we have, as well as the ability to work from home for so many.

The reality of course is that's an incredibly western centric thing for me to say. Most people in middle and lower income countries are not able to work from home in any reasonable way and they either work or they end up starving.

Anyway, apologies, I don't think this has much to do with Brexit anymore.

It became a brexit topic when people started using this topic as a way to score brexit points. Unfortunately they don't see how toolish they sound, which also applies to people who gloats about british covid deaths.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Oof. EU unilaterally triggers Article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol to try and prevent vaccines being exported across the Irish border into NI.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55864442

That's a pretty major provocation from the EU, and I'm very surprised they wanted to set that precedent so early on.

Do you think we’re edging towards military action against the EU? This is British lives they’re playing with here.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Do you think we’re edging towards military action against the EU? This is British lives they’re playing with here.

No.

 

[vidic blood & sand]

Oof. EU unilaterally triggers Article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol to try and prevent vaccines being exported across the Irish border into NI.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55864442

That's a pretty major provocation from the EU, and I'm very surprised they wanted to set that precedent so early on.

What do you expect from the pathetic EU?
They are desperate to appear as though they have the upper hand.
It's all falling apart, and nations are heading for the exit door.
Italy, Holland, Poland. All pissed off.

 

[F-Red]

Oof. EU unilaterally triggers Article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol to try and prevent vaccines being exported across the Irish border into NI.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55864442

That's a pretty major provocation from the EU, and I'm very surprised they wanted to set that precedent so early on.

Just when you thought it couldn't get any more crazier this week...

 

[MikeUpNorth]

BBC:

UK 'carefully considering' next steps over EU vaccine controls
The UK is "carefully considering" its next steps after the EU introduced export controls on vaccines made in the bloc, amid a row about delivery shortfalls.
Under Northern Ireland's Brexit deal, all products should be exported from the EU to NI without checks or controls.
But the EU believed this could be used to circumvent export controls, with NI becoming a backdoor to the wider UK.
Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove has spoken with European Commission Vice President Maroš Šefčovič to express the UK’s concern over a lack of notification from the EU about its actions in relation to the NI protocol.
"Gove told him the UK would now be carefully considering next steps," Downing Street said in a statement.

Is it me or is the EU way over playing its hand here? Blowing up the NI protocol over the vaccines... wtf?

 

[africanspur]

It became a brexit topic when people started using this topic as a way to score brexit points. Unfortunately they don't see how toolish they sound, which also applies to people who gloats about british covid deaths.

Yep and its pretty tiring all round to be honest.

Oof. EU unilaterally triggers Article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol to try and prevent vaccines being exported across the Irish border into NI.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55864442

That's a pretty major provocation from the EU, and I'm very surprised they wanted to set that precedent so early on.

Oof. Just trying to picture the reaction on here if this was happening the other way round....

 

[Tibs]

Shit just got real.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Oof. Just trying to picture the reaction on here if this was happening the other way round....

Quite.

 

[do.ob]

BBC:


Is it me or is the EU way over playing its hand here? Blowing up the NI protocol over the vaccines... wtf?

Is there a good more valuable than vaccines are currently? I can't judge who is right to what degree in this case, but if EU politicians feel righteous indignation about this, then this isn't really a surprising step.