[JPRouve]

I tried to take a step back when it comes to Bruno because both extremes are correct to some extent. Bruno is a brilliant creator, one of the best in the world but he is exclusively a passer, defensively he is busy but he can't cut a passing lane to save his life. He also isn't a game manager.

Bruno is a lot like Pogba, he can't lead your team on or off the ball, in both of these areas he has to be a "helper" to a main game manager and a main destroyer. Which brings us to something else Casemiro isn't operating as a destroyer and Eriksen(Mount) isn't operating as a game manager which exposes Bruno's flaws. The way ETH has tried to setup the team earlier this season requires versatile midfielders while we have specialists and niche players.

Currently at full strength only Mount has shown the ability to carry the ball(with Chelsea), only Casemiro is a good defender but his current all action style put him consistently out of position and then we have good to very good creators in Eriksen and Bruno. These players can't operate in a fluid midfield, they only make sense in a rigid all school tactical setup with clear instructions, clear spaces and no one having multiple roles.


All that to say that I think I did to Bruno what I criticized others about Pogba. I expect from him more than he can deliver which doesn't mean that he is close to be poor but that his profile requires a certain type of roles around him and the same is true for his main teammates. We do not have all rounded midfielder but expect them to play as if they were and then judge them individually.

 

[Jeppers7]

Go on then, if you insist.

"Out of all of our players, there are only a few of them that have any business being part of an elite team. Bruno is not one of them."
Everybody in this forum will have a different opinion for who our best 3 players are. For me (agnostic to coach, playstyles) it'd be Bruno, Rashford and Casemiro. Yours will undoubtedly be different, which is fine.

"Look, mate. I don't understand how it's so hard for you to grasp, but he is 30 next year and has won feck all."
He lifted a trophy as deputy captain 6 months ago, has reached 2 other cup finals and finished 2nd in the league since joining United, but putting all that to one side... neither have Heung Min-Son or Harry Kane. They're both also 2 years older.

"He is a decent player who is excellent at creating chances, but not much else. He runs around a lot and is never injured which is fantastic, but building a team with him as a focal point of possession is ridiculous."
You've just mentioned 3 extremely valuable attributes in the same context as saying he has one use. And let's ignore being able to cover 10+KM 50 games per season over a 10 year period when half our players are crocked. And then let's ignore all his other attributes (goal scoring, defensive work, high intensity presses per game, crossing, pass completion, key passes per game tactical and positional flexibility, leadership, You may disagree with some/all of these attributes, which again is fine... despite the statistics saying otherwise, but let's ignore all this again.

You love using Odegaard as a stick to beat Bruno with so let's weave him into a couple of hypotheticals:

1. If we switched Rashford and Antony with Martinelli and Saka, do you believe that United's metrics would improve, decrease or stay the same?
2. If we switched Odegaard with Bruno, do you believe that Arsenal's metrics would worsen and United's improve?

What's my point? Changing Bruno for another top AM wouldn't make much of a difference because our main problem isn't Bruno. They're both top-class advanced midfielders who can adapt to different playstyles and demands. Odegaard has shown this by adapting to Arteta's tactics, and Bruno has shown this by performing numerous roles under Ole, Rangnick and ETH, as well as for the NT.

And this leads to something you always tend to dismiss when convenient regarding Bruno. If he plays #6 for a game, you turn to his G/A stats and say "he should be doing more" and when he plays as a #10/SS you say 'all he does is score and assist'. The truth is that he impacts the game no matter where he plays, and doesn't kick up a fuss when he's used out of position for the greater good of the team. In the past 6 months we've seen him perform (to varying degrees of success) at LM, SS, AM, RM, CM, DM.

Tell me, if Bruno is such an amazing player, why does he consistently perform mediocre, and awful in almost every big game?
Consistently and almost every seem contradictory to me. Anyway, classic Redcafe mindlessness. When United play good, it's the team. When United play OK, it's the team. When United play bad, it's whichever player you dislike the most.

If you reframe your question to 'Why did United play bad in most big games since the 22/23 season?', which would be more representative and factual, there'd be a whole host of reasons and even you would SURELY agree that "Because Bruno Fernandes plays" would not top your list. And even if it did, it's probably time to quell the myth with some data...

I've just taken the liberty of reviewing our games vs Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Newcastle & Spurs (big games) last season, using Whoscored ratings as a measure for performance.

• Bruno Fernandes:
  • Top 3 performer - 5 games (42%)
  • Top 5 performer - 9 games (75%)
• Lisandro Martinez:
  • Top 3 performer - 3 games (30%)
  • Top 5 performer - 3 games (30%)
• Casemiro:
  • Top 3 performer - 5 games (56%)
  • Top 5 performer - 5 games (56%)
• Christian Eriksen
  • Top 3 performer - 0 games (0%)
  • Top 5 performer - 1 games (11%)
• Fred
  • Top 3 performer - 2 games (17%)
  • Top 5 performer - 4 games (33%)
• Marcus Rashford:
  • Top 3 performer - 6 games (50%)
  • Top 5 performer - 7 games (58%)

Only Rashford had more top 3 performances (by 1) in the big PL games last season, and nobody had close to as many top 5 performances as Bruno.

FYI, our top performing players for the 22/23 PL season as a whole were:

Fernandes - 7.44
Casemiro - 7.17
Rashford - 7.08

But what about Europe? I've done the same for our knockout stage games.

• Bruno Fernandes:
  • Top 3 performer - 2 games (40%)
  • Top 5 performer - 4 games (80%)

*5 games total as Bruno missed the game against Sevilla (we lost 3-0.)

​

Given the above, it's unfair to make the statement that "Bruno is bad in almost all big games" when his performance ratings show that he is more often than not one of our top 5 performers in big games, and c. 40% of the time he's in the top 3. Ratings for an individual game don't tell a full story, but when you're using 38 games and Bruno still the consistently highest rated player in the team, you start to wonder why a small group of fans on a United forum hold such an agenda.

For completeness, here are the PL season ratings for the other top 4 teams.

City
KDB - 7.58
Haaland - 7.54
Grealish - 7.33
Rodri - 7.26
Foden - 7.13

Arsenal
Jesus - 7.42
Saka - 7.40
Odegaard - 7.29
Martinelli - 7.25
Partey - 7.06

Newcastle
Trippier - 7.41
Joelinton - 7.24
Bruno G - 7.21
Isak - 7.06
Schar - 7.05

West Ham
Rice - 7.01
Paqueta - 6.97
Bowen - 6.81
Soucek - 6.80
Benrahma - 6.70

What does this show?

1. That the ratings work as a base assessment of performance: If you asked who the best players were for each of those teams last season, at least 3 of those names would appear in anyone's top 5 for that team.
2. Not enough of our midfielders and forwards performed to a high level last season. I haven't included above, but the 4th-7th spots on our team were occupied by 3 full backs and a CB.

I'll use this moment to say that @Jeppers7 tagged me and asked whether I thought Bruno Fernandes had good or bad performances this season. My response was going to be that I thought Bruno played especially good against Forest and in parts against Spurs/Arsenal, just like the rest of the time, and that I didn't think he played particularly poorly in any of our opening games. According to Whoscored, Bruno Fernandes has been a top 5 performer in all our of games so far this season. This doesn't mean that Bruno has been outstanding, but it does suggest that as a group we do not have enough individuals pulling their weight to execute the team's instructions. And finally regarding the Brighton game at the weekend, which generated 40+ comments in this thread from @zaafi, I felt that only Casemiro and McTominay performed at a level below the rest of the team.

Moving on...

The majority in this thread wants to get rid of him.
Nope, 5-10 guys that shout louder and more often than everybody else want to get rid of him. There are 50K+ United fans I sit beside every single week that recognise him as one of our most important players.

Did anyone want Keane, Scholes, Giggs or Cantona to feck off?
Hahahaha, yes they did. All 4 of them actually, at varying points of their careers. You can probably get a sense of this by reading through some old Carrick threads.



So yeah... I've used data to support the above, focusing mainly on last season because that's what the majority of arguments have been based on (Bruno undisputed GOAT in 19/20, 20/21, 21/22), and it's clear that most of the shite that's thrown around here is baseless.

Finally, for completeness, Bruno has rated either 1st or 2nd in performance for United every season since joining in January 2020... across BOTH PL and European competitions. 8/8.

So you take your opinion off whoscored. Nice one. He’s been poor in four games and good in one.

 

[Jeppers7]

It's so mad. I mean there are flaws to Bruno's game. Like all but a tiny handful of footballers in the Premier League. But at the end of the day, all the stats (and the eye test) confirm that he is one of the most consistently effective creative attacking players in the league. His pass completion stats have always been comparable to the likes of De Bruyne and Odegaard (which makes all the whining about him "constantly giving the ball away" redundant) and his workrate and defensive effort for the position he plays are clearly outstanding. So these muppets bleat on about intangible or unimportant criticisms ("he doesn't dribble enough", "creating chances means nothing if they're not assists" or the classic "doesn't score/assist often against the strongest opposition" - as though that doesn't apply to absolutely fecking everyone who isn't Jamie Vardy) and go on and on and on and fecking on until anyone who takes them on loses the will to live. The fact that this is close to the worst thread on the caf in a season where we have all the horrendous Greenwood hot takes to deal with is quite something. Hats off to the lot of them.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/paul-pogba-2018-19-performances.440059/post-24242621


Also…Wouldnt it be nice if Bruno could get back to this at least.

‘A run of matches where he would score or assist in every game, followed by several weeks of utter hopelessness’

 

[NZT-One]

Nothing smug about saying my experience of watching United games at Old Trafford, or watching away games in the pub, is a lot less toxic than reading through some of the posts in this thread. Reading through some of the comments in here, you'd have thought Bruno stood out as the worst performing player on the pitch week-in week-out.

Ah come on, lets not act as if there wasn't any sort of condescendence in your post. Telling others that you do not like certain post behaviour and comparing it with weird behaviour from stadium going fans. Whatever you consider as toxic is of course your subjective thing but still. Just read the posts of Rozay in here, you can't tell me you did and still come to the conclusion that some of the things you noted are the things people are angry about.

When did I say Casemiro is the problem? He's currently getting exposed because of a lack of defensive cover. I'm confident that a midfield of Casemiro-Amrabat-Bruno will have the right balance, and if the 3 of them are available for most of the season, then we'll get top 4 and win a trophy or two.

In your post:

that our current midfield problems boil down to Casemiro being too exposed, Eriksen offering very little off the ball and Mctominay being Mctominay

Even if all your assumptions might be right, would still not mean, Bruno isn't an open issue for us. You know you don't have to agree to others seeing things differently to you. But it for sure doesn't feel like you would be interested to understand their point. You do you Sir. Just think it is a bit discouraging acting like this and then calling other peoples posts as toxic.

 

[NZT-One]

When debating a player's ability, I've heard far more civil conversations between drunk fans around me in the stadium when compared with some of the belittling shite you've been posting on here recently in response to anyone who thinks Bruno is good enough for us:




I get that you want to stand your ground against people who disagree with you but I find it mad that the recent performances of Bruno, someone who has undoubtedly been one of our best post-Fergie signings, angers you (and other posters on this thread) so much that you resort to the kind of toxic comments that I would usually reserve for arguments with Liverpool, City and Leeds fans.

To be fair - I am sure you have seen other peoples behaviour towards him.

 

[NZT-One]

Go on then, if you insist.
"Out of all of our players, there are only a few of them that have any business being part of an elite team. Bruno is not one of them."
Everybody in this forum will have a different opinion for who our best 3 players are. For me (agnostic to coach, playstyles) it'd be Bruno, Rashford and Casemiro. Yours will undoubtedly be different, which is fine.

For the millionth time - nobody is denying that he has been the one of the best performers in the last few years. But he was one of the best of a bad bunch. Look at what we achieved. We aren't the worst in the world but our rivals are better. Which is what matters isn't it?

Also do yourself a favor and compare whoscored-Ratings with your own ratings. It is really weird and shouldn't be used as some sort of "look at the definitive facts". They are to a degree subjective because they apply a weighting on some stats which not necessarily makes sense all the time.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Ah come on, lets not act as if there wasn't any sort of condescendence in your post. Telling others that you do not like certain post behaviour and comparing it with weird behaviour from stadium going fans.

Again - I'm not sure why any mild level of condescendence is something you take issue with considering your posting history of talking down to individuals on here.

You know you don't have to agree to others seeing things differently to you. But it for sure doesn't feel like you would be interested to understand their point. You do you Sir. Just think it is a bit discouraging acting like this and then calling other peoples posts as toxic.

The levels of fume from some posters towards arguably our best post-Fergie signing (undoubtedly top 3) is something that I'll never understand. Even when Fellaini (who I really wasn't a fan of) was constantly getting picked by our former managers, I never expressed such intense dislike towards him, even though I knew his style of play was holding us back.

 

[NZT-One]

Again - I'm not sure why any mild level of condescendence is something you take issue with considering your posting history of talking down to individuals on here.

I'm like Dexter, trying only to act out to people who acted out themselves...

The levels of fume from some posters towards arguably our best post-Fergie signing (undoubtedly top 3) is something that I'll never understand. Even when Fellaini (who I really wasn't a fan of) was constantly getting picked by our former managers, I never expressed such intense dislike towards him, even though I knew his style of play was holding us back.

And you expect others to do things just like you? Based on what?

BTW: I think, you are reading too much into some of those lines. Some people are frustrated, but the most vile appears when conflicts get personal in here. Only natural, that this will lead to opinions becoming more extreme over time. Not good, but natural. Lets hope, our delinquent has a good match today!

 

[Rightnr]

Shame the thread about never winning the league with him is locked.

Today's game is a perfect example. Absolute headless chicken.

 

[Idxomer]

Proved his doubters wrong, a captain performance and finished it off with a great pass.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Was our best defensive midfielder today.

 

[PoTMS]

He's not good enough to be the main man.

 

[AngliaRed]

Absolute garbage!

 

[Abhinav]

Good player, not great captain material. Drops his head when the it gets tough.
Casemiro is the kind of captain we should have, shame he joined when he is at the fag end of his career.

 

[Jordan_mufc]

Honestly, he's an absolute liability in games against high quality opposition. He causes so many transitions that we gives us no chance against proper teams. At fault for the 3rd goal and offered us sweet FA going forward

 

[Based Adnan]

Standard Bruno performance vs a good side, this guy is not it

 

[Greck]

The last 5 minutes was the most Bruno thing ever. Gets an assist but after selling the result. We lost but his personal stats will look nice. Given e couple days that assist within the gash performance will be enough to have his fans dub him the best performer in this game.

 

[Giant Midget]

A number 10 who can’t carry the ball is a road to nowhere.

 

[R'hllor]

Our version of James Harden

 

[Ballache]

If he is our best player then we are in big trouble.
Never shows up when it matters, shouts at people after giving them a bad pass, makes insanely stupid decisions over and over again.

 

[Cutch]

Honestly, he's an absolute liability in games against high quality opposition. He causes so many transitions that we gives us no chance against proper teams. At fault for the 3rd goal and offered us sweet FA going forward

Pretty sure he gave the ball away for the 4th aswell. He makes every game against a big team even harder giving the ball away so sloppily, so devoid of composure

 

[PSV]

Bailed out the defense like 5 times today. Something that doesn't get talked about.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Zero control as usual.
Losing possession anyhow as usual. A free kick assist. Nothing much.
It remains, it's unsustainable to win anything playing like this.

 

[slored1]

Has not had a single good important away game under EtH. Starting to get worried about him being in the team now.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Bailed out the defense like 5 times today. Something that doesn't get talked about.

Yep.

 

[NinjaZombie]

The last 5 minutes was the most Bruno thing ever. Gets an assist but after selling the result. We lost but his personal stats will look nice. Given e couple days that assist within the gash performancewill be enough to have his fans dub him the best player on the pitch.

Yeap. What's infuriating is, we had the chance to attack and go for an equaliser and he gave away the ball that led to bayern's winner. It's the most Bruno thing ever.

He's our Steven Gerrard.

 

[Mcking]

His idea of playmaking is giving the ball away.

 

[berbatrick]

There are 2 players with a 0/10 bottom level - him and Rashford - can't carry both.

 

[Jordan_mufc]

Pretty sure he gave the ball away for the 4th aswell. He makes every game against a big team even harder giving the ball away so sloppily, so devoid of composure

Sorry that's the goal I meant. Had the chance to play an easy pass to the wing and he caused a transition with a sloppy pass. Really winds me up

 

[Poborsky's hair]

Zero control as usual.
Losing possession anyhow as usual. A free kick assist. Nothing much.
It remains, it's unsustainable to win anything playing like this.

Hollywood ball player, would be great off the bench but never a player to move a world class team forward. Very anti system. Can't do with a palyer with such a horrible dribbling and retention skills, unfortunately.

 

[NZT-One]

Didn't think he was too bad today but hardly inspiring. Difficult place to go and have a match, wouldn't really give him many negative points today but no positive ones as well.

 

[Redstain]

Disgusting performance consistently lost possession, get away with it for the average premier league team, punished for it on the highest levels.

 

[GMoore23]

Another mistake from ten Hag making him captain. Whinging cnuts aren't leaders.

 

[Yagami]

His flaws are always on show, but they become highlighted in the big games because we're on the back foot more. He's terrible under pressure and careless with possession, and those flaws always cost us against teams that actually come at us.

 

[Marwood]

Yeap. What's infuriating is, we had the chance to attack and go for an equaliser and he gave away the ball that led to bayern's winner. It's the most Bruno thing ever.

He's our Steven Gerrard.

Probably his one bad pass all game.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Pretty sure he gave the ball away for the 4th aswell. He makes every game against a big team even harder giving the ball away so sloppily, so devoid of composure

Yeah we were already going to struggle tonight with the number of ball winners in the Bayern team and he only made it worse with unforced giveaways

 

[MackRobinson]

Our version of James Harden

As a Rockets fan this made me chuckle

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I'm done with him honestly. He was abhorrent today and it was basically the typical Bruno performance you get. Terrible dribbler, weak, slow, and haphazard with his passing until he creates a goal. He constantly looks out of place when we play top teams midfields.

Brilliant creative passer, but so limited in everything else that he becomes a liability against the best teams. And to top it all off he's a whiny cnut that probably shouldn't have the armband as he's far too tempermental and hot/cold to be a captain.

 

[BarstoolProphet]

Typical Bruno against a top team. Was to be expected, so not even angry.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Our version of James Harden

Oh wow this is actually spot on to anyone that knows basketball