[RedStarUnited]

It feels kind of bizarre to be that invested in the Bruno vs De Bruyne thing given the cavernous gulf in quality throughout the rest of the teams. We haven't had a functional striker below the age of 35 in years, we've spent more on failed right wing options than the value of Brighton & Hove Albion, and for some reason decided many years ago that central midfielders that can pass are a nouveau-riche vulgarity. Yeah no-one should be undroppable etc, let's focus on getting more players that are actually startable first.

You realise its the pro Bruno people that bring up this debate right?

 

[Ubik]

You realise its the pro Bruno people that bring up this debate right?

I do not follow the Bruno wars that closely, I try to remain relatively sane.

 

[FriedClams]

I feel confident that Bruno will have an awful game tomorrow. He hasn't played well against a big team in his entire time at the club, and in my opinion, is nowhere near the personality required of a captain.

 

[NZT-One]

Both can’t happen because for the latter to happen, we need to keep and move the ball around better, and for Bruno to top our creativity stats - he needs to look for a striker almost everytime he gets the ball.

You watched the game on Saturday. Do you honestly think Bruno could play for the team in blue? Why is it so hard for people to grasp that above any individual, the idea should be to create a cohesive unit that creates chances by making the right decisions and movement over and over? Surely, as a team, we want to get to a level where we can pass and move around teams at an elite level? Brighton scored TWO goals against us on Saturday that involved them moving the ball from back to front with more than 20 passes. The final ‘assist’ could have been made by anyone, they were not highlight reel curved/lobbed passes in behind from 30 yards. They were situations where the whole team worked together to engineer numerical advantages and work the goalscorer into a clear shooting opportunity in our penalty box.

Do you think that happens CONSISTENTLY in a team with Bruno in it based on the decisions he makes on the ball? And if not, do you see it as so long as Bruno gets his x.A numbers up, it is somehow of greater value to the team?

People love to compare Bruno to Kevin based on numbers. Then there’s ‘we played without him one time 4 years ago, look how that went’. City’s system is the bigger creator than Kevin, and now he’s out injured, they are not falling apart. If Haaland got injured, they would still score the most goals. They are not reliant upon someone literally trying to create all the goals for their team via brilliant passes. That’s not how top football works, it’s a team game.

I’ve been having this argument on here for many years and while it’s been met with so much resistance, surely, at some point the proof is in the actual pudding? For all the chances Bruno’s style creates for him, it has and never will be enough for us. We are also outplayed by good teams frequently. Then we come onto Redcafe straight after and engage in arguments that insist that what we’re saying is wrong, if only strikers took every chance then we’d win titles. Cool, let’s keep Bruno around until we find a striker, or three, that takes every chance. Perhaps that is a better, more sensible plan than what others have been suggesting which is to take the more measured approach and increase out control and also quality of chances in games.

Perhaps it needs to also be said, nobody needs to be presented with any chance creation stats for Bruno. Ever again. Je can have them, they are not the topic of debate, and nobody denies that he creates a large amount of chances personally. Once we agree on that, we can now look at his role in the context of us having never been quite good enough as a team, and why we can’t control games. Ultimately, we haven’t won anything of note, and don’t look likely to either. So the question is, do we just need a 50 goal striker or is the solution more than that?

Very good post and sums up the issue at hand pretty well. Wouldn't go along with selling him the sooner the better, main focus should obviously be how to improve our team game and who to bring in to do it. As you said, we need to improve as a team and I think, how much of our deficiencies are down just to Bruno is debatable. What shouldn't be debatable is that he has to be on the list.

So how did we create loads of chances in that good run under Ole with Bruno in the team? First team to score four goals in four consecutive away games weren't we?

Easy answer: we created more chances because other teams weren't aware of us becoming deadly on the counter. Which meant we made use of fast attackers like Rashford and Martial with space to run into and very good passers in Bruno and Pogba. As soon as teams realized we make use of space in behind, this "good run" more or less came to a halt.

So as a poster who's mainly concerned with possession football, after the Brighton game, you didn't discuss at all the midfielder who barely touched or passed the ball.

You instead went to the midfielder who got on the ball and made more passes than any other.

Bruno 84 attempted passes
McTominay 17 attempted passes

And its Bruno you look to for an explanation of why we don't keep the ball.

Mate, this is the Bruno thread. Trying to pull in McTom is a bit iffy, doubling down on it, even more. 99% of the caf is fine with selling McTominay. There is no point to discuss what he is good at and what not. And this debate since Saturday isn't just about Brunos performance on Saturday anymore. Because many posters (you included) tend to discuss the bigger picture (which is perfectly fine of course, but theres no point to bring in specific performances of another player only to try to undermine another posters argument by noticing his post behaviour).

I don’t think it must always be either this or that. Bruno has his strength and weakness, it’s up to manager to decide how he would utilize his strength on the pitch, or bench him if he thinks he would be detrimental to the overall team play.

Creativity/final balls - world class
Productivity - world class
Pressing - top class

Keeping possession - weak
Build up play - weak
Dribbling - average

Not sure what makes Bruno top class in pressing... Any idea? I mean, he knows how to look busy. But it isn't like he is succeeding on a regular basis (which not necessarily needs to be his fault, but listing it seems a bit strange). Don't get me wrong, at least he seems like he is giving a feck most of the time, his workrate is definitely good but I don't think he should be labeled top class in pressing, reeks of a consolation prize.

We need to let Bruno do his thing (which he does very well btw) but compensate with the other players in the midfield setup. You need the other two midfielders to be good at possession and strong defensively. Casemiro and Eriksen aren’t the ideal fit. All 3 midfielders can’t lose possession at all times. This is what infuriates me the most about our team. It’s mind boggling that the manager (who was a former midfielder by trade) doesn’t see this.

Thats the way to go then. Tell ETH to finally buy a player or two who are good at possession then switch them with the ones who cannot do possession well. All issues fixed, Easy game.

Can't say I'm surprised by the usual suspects spamming the thread with the same old shite whenever we lose, even after a game where he was instructed to play CB for most of the second half. I'm just grateful I don't sit near any of them at Old Trafford. The guy two rows behind me who shouts at the ref the entire game is far more preferable than listening to some of these lot in the caf who would be constantly whinging at Bruno for giving the ball away too often.

What a productive post. So we found out that the poster not only is a regular matchgoing fan (those are definitely the best and most knowledgable fans in the world) but he is also supporting Bruno and not able to grasp the actual point of criticism even though it has been pointed out in numerous ways by now.

I do not follow the Bruno wars that closely, I try to remain relatively sane.

Definitely a hallmark of the sane to enter a thread, notice there is some heated debate ongoing, chipping in with a slight remark that doesn't really make sense only to remind others that you are the sane one. ^^

 

[Silas]

You're all the ones making personal attacks and dodging our points. And then failing badly to make new ones, which seem to be nebulously "SELL FERNANDES, BUY (?????), AND WE GET MAGICALLY BETTER" which is asinine. But I'm done with this conversation too so fair winds and a following sea to the brave souls who dare enter it again and godspeed to them navigating this nonsense.

This is literally what @Rozay emphasised that he wasn’t saying. There’s no way you could have read any of his response and still came up with that, so I’ll quote it again for you (hint: the bolded text):

Firstly, I haven’t lost anything, and secondly, your ‘strawman’ argument is completely wrong. The idea is not to drop Bruno and put one of the subs on. The argument has always been to rebuild the team on different foundations and principles than relying on a gun-slinger at the heart of it - training and buying players to play in a way that is not suited to Bruno’s strengths.

Of the other players you mentioned, half of them don’t even play anyway, and I find it ridiculous that a Bruno defender would be listing Rashford as a problem anyway. After all, ‘he scored 30 goals’.

I don’t even think I’m going to give people the benefit of the doubt of ‘misunderstanding’. The point has been made a million times in a million ways, and I suspect yourself and others have chosen, wilfully, to decide that what is being proposed is to simply drop Bruno and play Fred or whoever instead. I’ll say it again for clarity - Bruno doesn’t need to be dropped, he needs to be sold. And it’s not about ‘Bruno out, player x in’, so that we can both analyse how Bruno compares to player x, it is ‘stop playing reactive, percentage football and move towards playing controlled and structured football.’ That in itself equals ‘Bruno out’ by default. The day we decide we are ready to try and build a top team again and play like one, Bruno will be gone, and until then, we will at best continue to fall a little bit short and at worst, woefully short, regardless of who we sign to replace Scott McTominay. We can keep arguing this for years and years, while football moves on, the better teams start looking even more superior to us and the teams behind us continue to get their acts together and get closer to us. Meanwhile, you guys cling on to your one player/Messiah and continue to cherish our every assist. The best/only response we can possibly have to being embarrassed is to ‘try harder’ next game. Add a bit more ‘fight’. ‘Passion’. That’s the extent of what we are. We saw that on Saturday. We started with a ‘reaction’ from our last defeat, which basically consisted of ‘energy’. But then the superior football team just took a step back and passed the ball around us.

People can keep listing Martial, Rashford, McTominay, or whoever and convince themselves that if they were just a little bit better, we’d be able to beat Welbeck, Lallana, Gilmour and Groß - because of course - the problem is nothing to do with how we play, it’s that our players just aren’t good enough, except Bruno, because he can prove it with chance creation numbers.

What needs to change is our football, and nobody encapsulates the disorganised chaos of our play more than our captain. We’ll continue to argue - we’ll continue to spend 100s of millions on replacing the others as you suggest, and we’ll continue to fall short. And by the looks of things, you will continue to wonder why.

 

[Rozay]

This is literally what @Rozay emphasised that he wasn’t saying. There’s no way you could have read any of his response and still came up with that, so I’ll quote it again for you (hint: the bolded text):

Hence my response:

At this point it’s clear that you just can’t read, so I’ll leave it there.

Which was taken personally, however, it was either that or a deliberate ignoring of what was written explicitly in order to argue something else.

 

[Rozay]

What else happened after Coutinho left that might have contributed to their success?

They built the hardworking, high-pressing midfield that Klopp felt they needed for his style which could not have been built with Coutinho part of it? This is in spite of him being a better footballer and scoring more goals than each of their midfielders.

 

[ForeverRed1]

This whole chances created thing is overblown anyway, it's assists that really matter.
Chances created, Bruno passes the ball to Rashford on the wing, who takes a shot. Chance created.
How many assists does he have? The same as Eriksen.

Naturally his numbers have dropped off as he has been deployed differently. When he was assisting and scoring for fun it’s because he was further up and through the middle. His best position.

 

[Marwood]

Mate, this is the Bruno thread. Trying to pull in McTom is a bit iffy, doubling down on it, even more. 99% of the caf is fine with selling McTominay. There is no point to discuss what he is good at and what not. And this debate since Saturday isn't just about Brunos performance on Saturday anymore. Because many posters (you included) tend to discuss the bigger picture (which is perfectly fine of course, but theres no point to bring in specific performances of another player only to try to undermine another posters argument by noticing his post behaviour).

If Bruno is just being criticised I wouldn't be bringing in other players.

But what's being said here is that Bruno is the chief problem, so I think it's completely fair to say hang on, what about these other players first.

If I didn't bring up McTominay I could have brought up five others and made the same point.

it's plain silly to single out one player, especially when it's the one player who at least has one or two big positives.

They built the hardworking, high-pressing midfield that Klopp felt they needed for his style which could not have been built with Coutinho part of it? This is in spite of him being a better footballer and scoring more goals than each of their midfielders.

They also signed Van Dijk snd Alisson with the money. They didn't just sell Coutinho and stick a grafter in midfield. Odd to pretend otherwise.

If we were to add two world class players to this team, say a right winger and striker, you don't think we'd massively improve, even with Bruno still here?

If you want to copy Liverpool we'd also need to find two fullbacks like they have who provide the assists lacking in midfield.

 

[Jeppers7]

Naturally his numbers have dropped off as he has been deployed differently. When he was assisting and scoring for fun it’s because he was further up and through the middle. His best position.

Actually his numbers from the right wing are better than his numbers anywhere else albeit a smaller sample size.

Numbers wise the drop off came when Klopp opened his mouth but Bruno’s non penalty goals and assists in the league (because europa and fa cup are mainly second rated) are pretty consistent. For the amount of chances he creates His assist stats are unremarkable. The reasons for this won’t mainly be team mates.

 

[zaafi]

I'm going to pose the question, as I'm not in either camp as I find Bruno frustrating as hell sometimes, especially in our own half or under pressure, but he can also produce moments/passes with world class vision and his passion to press for me alleviates some of my frustrations as EtH wants us to be a high transitions team.

But I digress, who or how do we replace Bruno in your opinion? In my opinion we need a full rehaul in midfield but I'm refusing to comment on this until I see Case/Amrabaat/Bruno or Mount play together, while also hoping EtH reins in Rashford to look for better options in the final 3rd that could & should see our chance creation turn into goals.

Ideally, we replace Bruno with a) a technical AM who is press-resistant and able to operate in tight space with dribbling ability (Wirtz, Musiala, Cherki) or b) a third CM that will bring us physicality and stability in the midfield that is good on the ball, which will make it much easier for us to control the midfield.

The whole idea behind this is to have control (especially in midfield) and build a sustainable way of playing elite football. There are almost no games where we're actually in control of the game. Even if we're playing Nottingham Forest, Wolverhampton or Brighton's weakened team, we're easily bypassed in midfield, and you never get the feeling that we're comfortably going to win a game. I'm not saying this is Bruno's fault only, but he is a part of it, and his rash and chaotic playstyle makes our team pressing almost pointless, as he will often give it away by either being dispossessed in a challenge, or with a hollywood ball that is unlikely to succeed. I have no problems with him when he makes a pass like that if there is a decent chance it's going to succeed, or if Rashford is one on one. He is not Toni Kroos, though. He doesn't need to make these passes 10-15 times a match just because he wants to create as many chances as possible. As a team, we should look to build our play, and we're never going to be a possession team with him here, because he isn't that player. He would not get his chance creation statistics if he were to play like that.

Casemiro needs to be replaced as a starter next summer, and I think we'll just have to wait and see how Amrabat adapts. If he adapts like we hope - and even improve - then we're set with a deep lying playmaker for a few years, and we'd look to replace Casemiro and Bruno only. It's a big if, though.

 

[Fortitude]

Time for another round of Schrödinger's Bruno tonight.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This is literally what @Rozay emphasised that he wasn’t saying. There’s no way you could have read any of his response and still came up with that, so I’ll quote it again for you (hint: the bolded text):

The post you quote is mainly verbal diarrhoea but it does specifically say we need to sell Bruno to be successful (hint: the bolded text)

 

[Escobar]

When was the last time he was in peak form for a longer period of time?

 

[Jeppers7]

When was the last time he was in peak form for a longer period of time?

First half of his first full season. 2020. Shocking

 

[Marwood]

When was the last time he was in peak form for a longer period of time?

I think you could extend that question to any United player over the last decade. Who else sustains their best season after season for us?

It sounds like an excuse but its extremely difficult to sustain your best form for a long period of time in a team that's consistently struggling.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

What a productive post. So we found out that the poster not only is a regular matchgoing fan (those are definitely the best and most knowledgable fans in the world) but he is also supporting Bruno and not able to grasp the actual point of criticism even though it has been pointed out in numerous ways by now.

Oh, the irony this you?

Passive aggressive masterclass. Picture boy for maturity.

Definitely the right thing to bring your lousy mood to strangers on the internet.

 

[GazTheLegend]

The post you quote is mainly verbal diarrhoea but it does specifically say we need to sell Bruno to be successful (hint: the bolded text)

Yeah that's exactly right. Their entire argument seems to boil down to "sell Bruno, then rebuild the entire team with players who we can't or won't name, who will magically take us from being the third best team in the league to being the best in the league". Or become Man City. Forgetting that it took BILLIONS + mroe in kickbacks to GET City playing that way. And ignoring the 10-20 other players in our squad -right now- who need to go long before we remove Bruno. They are pathetically made and easily deconstructed points.

I mean to play devils advocate MAYBE we could play more controlled football than we do without him in the team, but I firmly believe - particularly given Ten Hags own words - that Bruno is under instructions to play the way he does for a reason. Selling Bruno makes us worse. Lets start with the players who are objectively and INARGUABLY UNLESS YOU'RE BATSHIT INSANE worse than Bruno fecking Fernandes, both by using tools such as your eyesight and any statistical metric you can imagine.

 

[Rozay]

They also signed Van Dijk snd Alisson with the money. They didn't just sell Coutinho and stick a grafter in midfield. Odd to pretend otherwise.

If we were to add two world class players to this team, say a right winger and striker, you don't think we'd massively improve, even with Bruno still here?

If you want to copy Liverpool we'd also need to find two fullbacks like they have who provide the assists lacking in midfield.

Marwood, why are you being like this? Do you just enjoy arguing? I’m not willing to accept that with the best of intentions, you are just missing the point. Surely it’s wilful.

If you wanted an entire breakdown of what Liverpool did after selling Coutinho, I could have of course given you more. But why do you continue to act, despite being told otherwise on so many occasions, as if anyone is saying we simply only need to swap Bruno to become a top team? Is it because deep down, you don’t want to engage with what people are ACTUALLY saying?

It’s like @Pogue Mahone - who to be fair seems to enjoy being the neighbourhood prick, but I know he is not an illiterate. He’s a doctor by all accounts. Yet his post above in reference to my previous post feigns poor comprehension, it is just rudeness to try and deflect, claiming that he is quoting me ‘literally’ by saying ‘I’ve said we need to sell Bruno’ - pretending (which is all I can call it) to have not seen WHY, I said we should, or that I specifically said that it is NOT about getting one in and one out and comparing those players. When we both know, given his likely advanced reading skills, that he understands perfectly. In fact, I believe that such is high level of intelligence, he plays dumb personally because he knows most posters will simply lack the eloquence to effectively argue and prove a point against him anyway.

Now, back to our conversation about Liverpool. We saw the full butterfly of Liverpool’s team that won trophies. We ALL have the common sense to see that Coutinho was their BEST player. Not their WORST player. Please follow me. They had players like Shaqiri at RW and Lovren at centre half. All of these players needed to go. Shaqiri and Lovren because they were not good enough, Coutinho because he wasn’t the right fit. For further context, he was expected to be a far better fit at Barcelona, who identified him to replace the departing Iniesta, due to the WAY he plays football.

If Liverpool had simply swapped out Shaqiri and gotten a better right winger, or swapped out Lovren and gotten a better centre half - they would STILL be faced with the issue of not being able to play the way Klopp likes to play so long as Coutinho is in the team. They would have been a BETTER team due to having some better players, but with Coutinho there, they couldn’t have been the best version of Klopp’s plan. He is a player who had to go in order for the team to change its style because the two could not co-exist. If you disagree with this assessment please stop me here. But I don’t see Coutinho as a player who could have been a part of Liverpool’s midfield trio in their all conquering team.

Players like Lovren and Shaqiri were not the wrong fit. They were the wrong quality. Players like Martial is not the wrong fit. He’s the wrong quality. Coutinho was not the wrong quality, he was the wrong fit. Liverpool could get closer to how they want to play with Shaqiri than they could with Coutinho, although they couldn’t get to the level. Shaqiri could be swapped out with the same type of piece, but better. Coutinho couldn’t. It would need a different piece. Liverpool getting a better Coutinho (there wasn’t really any at the time, he was probably the best) would have still limited them from playing how they went on to play.

So you can say that Bruno is also not the wrong quality, but the wrong fit, in the opinion of myself and other posters, for a type of football we need to play to go up a level. People seem to have far less trouble understanding this concept when it was being said about De Gea for years, despite all of his saves. They had far less trouble understanding this concept when said about Wan-Bissaka, despite his world-class tackling stats. They have been able to quickly differentiate between quality in certain areas and style of play in the context of the team’s football. Yet there is this huge sensitivity around Bruno. People choose to bury their heads or out their hands over their ears like a 5 year old and wilfully respond with chances numbers and refuse to even engage with the points being made.

I think in and around lockdown, we saw an XI where everyone was probably playing to their best, individually. De Gea, Bissaka, Maguire, Lindelöf, Shaw, Matic, Pogba, Bruno, Greenwood, Martial, Rashford. There were no straw man McTominay’s to reference. They were ALL playing at the top of their games. It was a good team, as evidenced by us becoming better than almost everyone. Except City. We had to change the football to go up a level. Either that or we needed Mbappé, Davies, Rodri, Haaland and De Jong. Then who knows.

Now after this, by all means, agree or not, but please don’t pretend to not understand what the point is. Please don’t continue to arbitrarily list random squad players who are worse than Bruno and act as if people are saying that Bruno is a worse player than them. Please do not think that we do not understand that Bruno creates a lot of chances. Please at least try to engage with the actual points being made.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Yeah that's exactly right. Their entire argument seems to boil down to "sell Bruno, then rebuild the entire team with players who we can't or won't name, who will magically take us from being the third best team in the league to being the best in the league". Or become Man City. Forgetting that it took BILLIONS + mroe in kickbacks to GET City playing that way. And ignoring the 10-20 other players in our squad -right now- who need to go long before we remove Bruno. They are pathetically made and easily deconstructed points.

I mean to play devils advocate MAYBE we could play more controlled football than we do without him in the team, but I firmly believe - particularly given Ten Hags own words - that Bruno is under instructions to play the way he does for a reason. Selling Bruno makes us worse. Lets start with the players who are objectively and INARGUABLY UNLESS YOU'RE BATSHIT INSANE worse than Bruno fecking Fernandes, both by using tools such as your eyesight and any statistical metric you can imagine.

People love to act like they're the smartest guy in the room. It's no fun for them to state that our current midfield problems boil down to Casemiro being too exposed, Eriksen offering very little off the ball and Mctominay being Mctominay - because 99% of the caf will agree with them. Instead, adopting the stance that we'll never be a top team with Bruno, allows them smugly say 'look what I've noticed that a lot of you haven't'. As @Pogue Mahone has alluded to - they are the most tedious posters to get in an argument with.

 

[Marwood]

Marwood, why are you being like this? Do you just enjoy arguing? I’m not willing to accept that with the best of intentions, you are just missing the point. Surely it’s wilful.

If you wanted an entire breakdown of what Liverpool did after selling Coutinho, I could have of course given you more. But why do you continue to act, despite being told otherwise on so many occasions, as if anyone is saying we simply only need to swap Bruno to become a top team? Is it because deep down, you don’t want to engage with what people are ACTUALLY saying?

It’s like @Pogue Mahone - who to be fair seems to enjoy being the neighbourhood prick, but I know he is not an illiterate. He’s a doctor by all accounts. Yet his post above in reference to my previous post feigns poor comprehension, it is just rudeness to try and deflect, claiming that he is quoting me ‘literally’ by saying ‘I’ve said we need to sell Bruno’ - pretending (which is all I can call it) to have not seen WHY, I said we should, or that I specifically said that it is NOT about getting one in and one out and comparing those players. When we both know, given his likely advanced reading skills, that he understands perfectly. In fact, I believe that such is high level of intelligence, he plays dumb personally because he knows most posters will simply lack the eloquence to effectively argue and prove a point against him anyway.

Now, back to our conversation about Liverpool. We saw the full butterfly of Liverpool’s team that won trophies. We ALL have the common sense to see that Coutinho was their BEST player. Not their WORST player. Please follow me. They had players like Shaqiri at RW and Lovren at centre half. All of these players needed to go. Shaqiri and Lovren because they were not good enough, Coutinho because he wasn’t the right fit. For further context, he was expected to be a far better fit at Barcelona, who identified him to replace the departing Iniesta, due to the WAY he plays football.

If Liverpool had simply swapped out Shaqiri and gotten a better right winger, or swapped out Lovren and gotten a better centre half - they would STILL be faced with the issue of not being able to play the way Klopp likes to play so long as Coutinho is in the team. They would have been a BETTER team due to having some better players, but with Coutinho there, they couldn’t have been the best version of Klopp’s plan. He is a player who had to go in order for the team to change its style because the two could not co-exist. If you disagree with this assessment please stop me here. But I don’t see Coutinho as a player who could have been a part of Liverpool’s midfield trio in their all conquering team.

Players like Lovren and Shaqiri were not the wrong fit. They were the wrong quality. Players like Martial is not the wrong fit. He’s the wrong quality. Coutinho was not the wrong quality, he was the wrong fit. Liverpool could get closer to how they want to play with Shaqiri than they could with Coutinho, although they couldn’t get to the level. Shaqiri could be swapped out with the same type of piece, but better. Coutinho couldn’t. It would need a different piece. Liverpool getting a better Coutinho (there wasn’t really any at the time, he was probably the best) would have still limited them from playing how they went on to play.

So you can say that Bruno is also not the wrong quality, but the wrong fit, in the opinion of myself and other posters, for a type of football we need to play to go up a level. People seem to have far less trouble understanding this concept when it was being said about De Gea for years, despite all of his saves. They had far less trouble understanding this concept when said about Wan-Bissaka, despite his world-class tackling stats. They have been able to quickly differentiate between quality in certain areas and style of play in the context of the team’s football. Yet there is this huge sensitivity around Bruno. People choose to bury their heads or out their hands over their ears like a 5 year old and wilfully respond with chances numbers and refuse to even engage with the points being made.

I think in and around lockdown, we saw an XI where everyone was probably playing to their best, individually. De Gea, Bissaka, Maguire, Lindelöf, Shaw, Matic, Pogba, Bruno, Greenwood, Martial, Rashford. There were no straw man McTominay’s to reference. They were ALL playing at the top of their games. It was a good team, as evidenced by us becoming better than almost everyone. Except City. We had to change the football to go up a level. Either that or we needed Mbappé, Davies, Rodri, Haaland and De Jong. Then who knows.

Now after this, by all means, agree or not, but please don’t pretend to not understand what the point is. Please don’t continue to arbitrarily list random squad players who are worse than Bruno and act as if people are saying that Bruno is a worse player than them. Please do not think that we do not understand that Bruno creates a lot of chances. Please at least try to engage with the actual points being made.

Not rating Bruno isn't my issue.

It's the silly reasoning behind it.

You started an entire thread saying this team can't win titles or play a certain style with Bruno so to start saying I'm misrepresenting your argument now is a bit much. As is your random name calling.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

What else happened after Coutinho left that might have contributed to their success?

The structure of Liverpool midfield changed to a Flat 3 midfielders. Countinho really liked to play like '10'. Liverpool ditched that, went to a midfield of Henderson, Fabinho, Gigi. It become extremely successful. Yet Gigi or Fabinho don't 'look' better than Countinho on paper.

We really need to find a good midfield balance for us to achieve anything great. Bruno is main culprit of being the most imbalance players.

Bruno is not as good as people think, he is a Europa league quality. It's sad he's our captain, main man but that's where his average career pointer points to.

The guy is 29 years old, going to 30 years but has never won any major title in his career. No league title or CL.
The guy has never played in any Champion League QF, SF game in his LIFE. Not even a single one.

He's never been involved in any league title race in his LIFE

But miraculously he will deliver EPL or CL to United as the main man. The guy doesn't know how to win, he has never won anything big.

Same way we said Ole never won any trophy, should be used against Bruno. Bruno has never won anything in his CAREER. Nothing.

But how people expect him to turn into a prime Bernardo Silva or KDB and deliver on big occasion is usually very naive.

Let's wait for today's game, we see what he will deliver.

 

[Escobar]

First half of his first full season. 2020. Shocking

Thats what I thought too. He has been far off and not consistent

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah that's exactly right. Their entire argument seems to boil down to "sell Bruno, then rebuild the entire team with players who we can't or won't name, who will magically take us from being the third best team in the league to being the best in the league". Or become Man City. Forgetting that it took BILLIONS + mroe in kickbacks to GET City playing that way. And ignoring the 10-20 other players in our squad -right now- who need to go long before we remove Bruno. They are pathetically made and easily deconstructed points.

I mean to play devils advocate MAYBE we could play more controlled football than we do without him in the team, but I firmly believe - particularly given Ten Hags own words - that Bruno is under instructions to play the way he does for a reason. Selling Bruno makes us worse. Lets start with the players who are objectively and INARGUABLY UNLESS YOU'RE BATSHIT INSANE worse than Bruno fecking Fernandes, both by using tools such as your eyesight and any statistical metric you can imagine.

It's so mad. I mean there are flaws to Bruno's game. Like all but a tiny handful of footballers in the Premier League. But at the end of the day, all the stats (and the eye test) confirm that he is one of the most consistently effective creative attacking players in the league. His pass completion stats have always been comparable to the likes of De Bruyne and Odegaard (which makes all the whining about him "constantly giving the ball away" redundant) and his workrate and defensive effort for the position he plays are clearly outstanding. So these muppets bleat on about intangible or unimportant criticisms ("he doesn't dribble enough", "creating chances means nothing if they're not assists" or the classic "doesn't score/assist often against the strongest opposition" - as though that doesn't apply to absolutely fecking everyone who isn't Jamie Vardy) and go on and on and on and fecking on until anyone who takes them on loses the will to live. The fact that this is close to the worst thread on the caf in a season where we have all the horrendous Greenwood hot takes to deal with is quite something. Hats off to the lot of them.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

How do people have so much time to invest on this forum? This thread is a shit show.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

If Bruno is just being criticised I wouldn't be bringing in other players.

But what's being said here is that Bruno is the chief problem, so I think it's completely fair to say hang on, what about these other players first.

If I didn't bring up McTominay I could have brought up five others and made the same point.

it's plain silly to single out one player, especially when it's the one player who at least has one or two big positives.



They also signed Van Dijk snd Alisson with the money. They didn't just sell Coutinho and stick a grafter in midfield. Odd to pretend otherwise.

If we were to add two world class players to this team, say a right winger and striker, you don't think we'd massively improve, even with Bruno still here?

If you want to copy Liverpool we'd also need to find two fullbacks like they have who provide the assists lacking in midfield.

About signing VVD and Alison let me counter that..

Since Ole became the manager we have conceded over 4+ in like 10 games. I already did a list here. Search it, you will see it if you don't believe.

During Mourinho time we conceded only Once 4 goals. Against Chelsea.

The last 10 years since 2013. We have the LAST 4 worst record of goals conceded in Manchester United History SINCE 2019.

In short, we have conceded the most goals as Man United Football Club since the premier league started during the period of 2019 - 2023.

Meaning since 2020 we have a very systematic problem with how our club is structured. It's supported by numbers, goals we leak, how we ship 4+ goals in games, how we get overrun in games. It's perfectly visible.

So all this is facts and we agree on that.

In the same period, to try and solve this issue we have tried to change players, coaches etc. But problems remain the same.

We have shipped De Gea. Onana is in. Already we have shipped in 10 goals in 5 games.

We have brought Varane and Martinez for Lindelof & Maguire. Last season we conceded 43 goals same as what Moyes+ Giggs conceded in 2013. (joint 4th worst numbers in EPL United history)

We have moved from a midfield of McFred, Pogba Matic to Casemiro + Eriksen. Yet last season we leaked the 4th worst goals in our EPL history.

As you can see nothing big has happened after changing players in almost all positions. ( read VVD and Alison signings ')
Even change of managers have not changed alot. We still get hammered, overrun and ship in goals.

And to cap it off...

Now it's universally accept here is...
Our game plan has not changed much from how it was during Ole period. Zero control, Zero balance, Zero pin back possession, still ball over the top to Rashford, uncoordinated press, still get overrun, leaking goals.

Why all this??

Because we try to play as a transition team.

Ole made us a transition team, why? To play on Brunos strength. It failed massively after spending 330m with no pattern of play to show.

ETH has made the same same MISTAKES. it clear as day now. It's visible.
After 400m invest, same as Ole, we still have no patterns of play to show.
ETH himself said he wants us to be 'best transition team'. It's starting to look like it will fail again. Numbers + eye ball test show it.

All we say is, after spending over 700M since 2020, we have played to Bruno's strength and have nothing to show. We are still trying to play transition football which has failed to get us nowhere.

Bruno was Ole's main man.
He's is ETH main man and Captain.
The symptoms of the team remains the same after 700m investments since 2020, change of players, change of managers etc.
Our playing style since 2020 is Bruno's playing style.

So that's why we say... Untill we change the structure of the team, structure of the midfield, get new main man, get new playing style we will win nothing.

So the conclusion...

If we want as Manchester United to positively change our play, we need to move away from being a transition team.It's simple.

Moving away from being a transition team is moving away from being a Bruno's team.

There is no shortcuts. I can bet with my balls, we will never win a major trophy being a transition team.

 

[Marwood]

About signing VVD and Alison let me counter that..

Since Ole became the manager we have conceded over 4+ in like 10 games. I already did a list here. Search it, you will see it if you don't believe.

During Mourinho time we conceded only Once 4 goals. Against Chelsea.

The last 10 years since 2013. We have the LAST 4 worst record of goals conceded in Manchester United History SINCE 2019.

In short, we have conceded the most goals as Man United Football Club since the premier league started during the period of 2019 - 2023.

Meaning since 2020 we have a very systematic problem with how our club is structured. It's supported by numbers, goals we leak, how we ship 4+ goals in games, how we get overrun in games. It's perfectly visible.

So all this is facts and we agree on that.

In the same period, to try and solve this issue we have tried to change players, coaches etc. But problems remain the same.

We have shipped De Gea. Onana is in. Already we have shipped in 10 goals in 5 games.

We have brought Varane and Martinez for Lindelof & Maguire. Last season we conceded 43 goals same as what Moyes+ Giggs conceded in 2013. (joint 4th worst numbers in EPL United history)

We have moved from a midfield of McFred, Pogba Matic to Casemiro + Eriksen. Yet last season we leaked the 4th worst goals in our EPL history.

As you can see nothing big has happened after changing players in almost all positions. ( read VVD and Alison signings ')
Even change of managers have not changed alot. We still get hammered, overrun and ship in goals.

And to cap it off...

Now it's universally accept here is...
Our game plan has not changed much from how it was during Ole period. Zero control, Zero balance, Zero pin back possession, still ball over the top to Rashford, uncoordinated press, still get overrun, leaking goals.

Why all this??

Because we try to play as a transition team.

Ole made us a transition team, why? To play on Brunos strength. It failed massively after spending 330m with no pattern of play to show.

ETH has made the same same MISTAKES. it clear as day now. It's visible.
After 400m invest, same as Ole, we still have no patterns of play to show.
ETH himself said he wants us to be 'best transition team'. It's starting to look like it will fail again. Numbers + eye ball test show it.

All we say is, after spending over 700M since 2020, we have played to Bruno's strength and have nothing to show. We are still trying to play transition football which has failed to get us nowhere.

Bruno was Ole's main man.
He's is ETH main man and Captain.
The symptoms of the team remains the same after 700m investments since 2020, change of players, change of managers etc.
Our playing style since 2020 is Bruno's playing style.

So that's why we say... Untill we change the structure of the team, structure of the midfield, get new main man, get new playing style we will win nothing.

So the conclusion...

If we want as Manchester United to positively change our play, we need to move away from being a transition team.It's simple.

Moving away from being a transition team is moving away from being a Bruno's team.

There is no shortcuts. I can bet with my balls, we will never win a major trophy being a transition team.

Why could the conclusion not be that we keep buying the wrong players?

Also why the need to counter VVD and Alisson signings as important to Liverpools success? Why even go there? They obviously were very important. As was Salah exploding onto the scene the season Coutinho left. As was TAA coming into the team as Coutinho left.

But no. We have to pretend Coutinho leaving was the tactical tweak that created their success so you can then apply this same logic to Bruno years later.

It's such a strange desire to frame everything that happens, at United or at other clubs, to say Bruno is the problem. It's so strange.

Anyeay I'll have a break for a bit from the thread. Give others a chance.

 

[zaafi]

Pogue Mahone thinks we should stick with a player with many flaws because "every player in PL also has flaws". Greatest argument used on this forum.

How do you expect us to win anything if you're not willing to upgrade on players who aren't good enough? I know love is blind, but surely there is a limit for how blind you can be. The most effective attacking midfielder in PL, he says, when statistics literally prove he isn't.

 

[NZT-One]

But what's being said here is that Bruno is the chief problem, so I think it's completely fair to say hang on, what about these other players first.

That is not the majority stance. The majority in here says that Brunos playstyle causes some of the issues we have, while his contributions keep us functional to a degree but we probably would be better off evaluating the balance between pros and cons. If the Coutinho example is good for anything, it shows, that teams can lose big players, re-define themselves and become even better. It is possible.

Oh, the irony this you?

You were the one trying to act smug last night and I called you out. And your quote is from a specific dialogue between me and another poster. Pretty sure I didn't adress everybody on here.

People love to act like they're the smartest guy in the room. It's no fun for them to state that our current midfield problems boil down to Casemiro being too exposed, Eriksen offering very little off the ball and Mctominay being Mctominay - because 99% of the caf will agree with them. Instead, adopting the stance that we'll never be a top team with Bruno, allows them smugly say 'look what I've noticed that a lot of you haven't'. As @Pogue Mahone has alluded to - they are the most tedious posters to get in an argument with.

They sure do. The issue is that you can find this sort of behaviour on every side of the argument. I mean, if the three of you are so sick of this thread, you could just ignore it or put some posters on ignore. The debate is as heated also due to behaviour like the one of the poster from above. Or you acting as if now Casemiro is the problem when some of the problems were apparent last season as well.

The structure of Liverpool midfield changed to a Flat 3 midfielders. Countinho really liked to play like '10'. Liverpool ditched that, went to a midfield of Henderson, Fabinho, Gigi. It become extremely successful. Yet Gigi or Fabinho don't 'look' better than Countinho on paper.

We really need to find a good midfield balance for us to achieve anything great. Bruno is main culprit of being the most imbalance players.

Bruno is not as good as people think, he is a Europa league quality. It's sad he's our captain, main man but that's where his average career pointer points to.

The guy is 29 years old, going to 30 years but has never won any major title in his career. No league title or CL.
The guy has never played in any Champion League QF, SF game in his LIFE. Not even a single one.

He's never been involved in any league title race in his LIFE

But miraculously he will deliver EPL or CL to United as the main man. The guy doesn't know how to win, he has never won anything big.

Same way we said Ole never won any trophy, should be used against Bruno. Bruno has never won anything in his CAREER. Nothing.

But how people expect him to turn into a prime Bernardo Silva or KDB and deliver on big occasion is usually very naive.

Let's wait for today's game, we see what he will deliver.

See your point but one game and what he delivers won't really change the overall issue. We know that he can deliver. We know that he is capable of having great games. The debate we are having in here, wether he is the center of our issues and how to deal with it, is independent from one CL game versus Bayern. He can have a stormer tonight and the debate will be even worse in here because even more creatures will apppear from under their rocks saying "I told you " or he can have stinker and probably the same will happen, just with different creatures.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

You were the one trying to act smug last night and I called you out. And your quote is from a specific dialogue between me and another poster. Pretty sure I didn't adress everybody on here.

Nothing smug about saying my experience of watching United games at Old Trafford, or watching away games in the pub, is a lot less toxic than reading through some of the posts in this thread. Reading through some of the comments in here, you'd have thought Bruno stood out as the worst performing player on the pitch week-in week-out.

They sure do. The issue is that you can find this sort of behaviour on every side of the argument. I mean, if the three of you are so sick of this thread, you could just ignore it or put some posters on ignore. The debate is as heated also due to behaviour like the one of the poster from above. Or you acting as if now Casemiro is the problem when some of the problems were apparent last season as well.

When did I say Casemiro is the problem? He's currently getting exposed because of a lack of defensive cover. I'm confident that a midfield of Casemiro-Amrabat-Bruno will have the right balance, and if the 3 of them are available for most of the season, then we'll get top 4 and win a trophy or two.

 

[zaafi]

Nothing smug about saying my experience of watching United games at Old Trafford, or watching away games in the pub, is a lot less toxic than reading through some of the posts in this thread. Reading through some of the comments in here, you'd have thought Bruno stood out as the worst performing player on the pitch week-in week-out.

Yeah, reading a post on a forum explaining why they don't think Bruno is good enough for us as a team is far more toxic than listening to some red-faced fat prick screaming insults with bucket loads of saliva flying out of his gob throughout the entire game.

 

[Greyfog]

What a player. Too bad his best years are being wasted by mediocre coaches an managers.

 

[tomaldinho1]

How do people have so much time to invest on this forum? This thread is a shit show.

@zaafi is unstoppable. Look at the who replied tab.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Yeah, reading a post on a forum explaining why they don't think Bruno is good enough for us as a team is far more toxic than listening to some red-faced fat prick screaming insults with bucket loads of saliva flying out of his gob throughout the entire game.

When debating a player's ability, I've heard far more civil conversations between drunk fans around me in the stadium when compared with some of the belittling shite you've been posting on here recently in response to anyone who thinks Bruno is good enough for us:

You deserve to watch us play like this. In fact, it's hard to believe you're even a United fan. At some point you have to wonder, if Bruno Fernandes was so good for the team, why are there so many people that want him out of the club?

I know you like Bruno, but you're genuinely clueless when it comes to this. I just don't know how you can be so blind.

Do you seriously not see the way you respond to other posters, including myself? The irony in you talking about passive aggressive, as well. I can imagine what a dislikeable person you are in real life.

I get that you want to stand your ground against people who disagree with you but I find it mad that the recent performances of Bruno, someone who has undoubtedly been one of our best post-Fergie signings, angers you (and other posters on this thread) so much that you resort to the kind of toxic comments that I would usually reserve for arguments with Liverpool, City and Leeds fans.

 

[zaafi]

@zaafi is unstoppable. Look at the who replied tab.

Coming from someone with nearly 15k messages on this forum

 

[tomaldinho1]

Coming from someone with nearly 15k messages on this forum

You’ve lost me?

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Coming from someone with nearly 15k messages on this forum

Take a break from this thread! You've deserved it.

 

[zaafi]

I get that you want to stand your ground against people who disagree with you but I find it mad that the recent performances of Bruno, someone who has undoubtedly been one of our best post-Fergie signings, angers you (and other posters on this thread) so much that you resort to the kind of toxic comments that I would usually reserve for arguments with Liverpool, City and Leeds fans.

Look at the posts I quoted and maybe you'll understand why I replied the way I did. Pogue and roonster are acting like absolute pricks, and roonster in particular is perhaps the poster that is passive aggressive to an extreme level. He replies like that to many posters. There is no need to act like a prick because I have a strong opinion on a player that they really like.

Maybe quote them and talk to them about their anger, but I guess that doesn't make sense because they share your opinion on him.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Hojlund hatrick with Bruno hatrick of assists. Lets gooo........

 

[VivaObertan]

My focus is here because some of you argue against me. So I reply back. Out of all of our players, there are only a few of them that have any business being part of an elite team. Bruno is not one of them. Look, mate. I don't understand how it's so hard for you to grasp, but he is 30 next year and has won feck all. He is a decent player who is excellent at creating chances, but not much else. He runs around a lot and is never injured which is fantastic, but building a team with him as a focal point of possession is ridiculous. Look at the other teams that play with number 10s, and look at their particular skillset. They're not chaotic, mindless players who instantly give the ball away. He has created a ton of chances, but he sure as hell have denied a ton too by giving it away or being dispossessed.

Tell me, if Bruno is such an amazing player, why does he consistently perform mediocre, and awful in almost every big game?

The majority in this thread wants to get rid of him. Why would we want to get rid of a player that is supposedly world class? Did anyone want Keane, Scholes, Giggs or Cantona to feck off?

Go on then, if you insist.

"Out of all of our players, there are only a few of them that have any business being part of an elite team. Bruno is not one of them."
Everybody in this forum will have a different opinion for who our best 3 players are. For me (agnostic to coach, playstyles) it'd be Bruno, Rashford and Casemiro. Yours will undoubtedly be different, which is fine.

"Look, mate. I don't understand how it's so hard for you to grasp, but he is 30 next year and has won feck all."
He lifted a trophy as deputy captain 6 months ago, has reached 2 other cup finals and finished 2nd in the league since joining United, but putting all that to one side... neither have Heung Min-Son or Harry Kane. They're both also 2 years older.

"He is a decent player who is excellent at creating chances, but not much else. He runs around a lot and is never injured which is fantastic, but building a team with him as a focal point of possession is ridiculous."
You've just mentioned 3 extremely valuable attributes in the same context as saying he has one use. And let's ignore being able to cover 10+KM 50 games per season over a 10 year period when half our players are crocked. And then let's ignore all his other attributes (goal scoring, defensive work, high intensity presses per game, crossing, pass completion, key passes per game tactical and positional flexibility, leadership, You may disagree with some/all of these attributes, which again is fine... despite the statistics saying otherwise, but let's ignore all this again.

You love using Odegaard as a stick to beat Bruno with so let's weave him into a couple of hypotheticals:

1. If we switched Rashford and Antony with Martinelli and Saka, do you believe that United's metrics would improve, decrease or stay the same?
2. If we switched Odegaard with Bruno, do you believe that Arsenal's metrics would worsen and United's improve?

What's my point? Changing Bruno for another top AM wouldn't make much of a difference because our main problem isn't Bruno. They're both top-class advanced midfielders who can adapt to different playstyles and demands. Odegaard has shown this by adapting to Arteta's tactics, and Bruno has shown this by performing numerous roles under Ole, Rangnick and ETH, as well as for the NT.

And this leads to something you always tend to dismiss when convenient regarding Bruno. If he plays #6 for a game, you turn to his G/A stats and say "he should be doing more" and when he plays as a #10/SS you say 'all he does is score and assist'. The truth is that he impacts the game no matter where he plays, and doesn't kick up a fuss when he's used out of position for the greater good of the team. In the past 6 months we've seen him perform (to varying degrees of success) at LM, SS, AM, RM, CM, DM.

Tell me, if Bruno is such an amazing player, why does he consistently perform mediocre, and awful in almost every big game?
Consistently and almost every seem contradictory to me. Anyway, classic Redcafe mindlessness. When United play good, it's the team. When United play OK, it's the team. When United play bad, it's whichever player you dislike the most.

If you reframe your question to 'Why did United play bad in most big games since the 22/23 season?', which would be more representative and factual, there'd be a whole host of reasons and even you would SURELY agree that "Because Bruno Fernandes plays" would not top your list. And even if it did, it's probably time to quell the myth with some data...

I've just taken the liberty of reviewing our games vs Arsenal, Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Newcastle & Spurs (big games) last season, using Whoscored ratings as a measure for performance.

• Bruno Fernandes:
  • Top 3 performer - 5 games (42%)
  • Top 5 performer - 9 games (75%)
• Lisandro Martinez:
  • Top 3 performer - 3 games (30%)
  • Top 5 performer - 3 games (30%)
• Casemiro:
  • Top 3 performer - 5 games (56%)
  • Top 5 performer - 5 games (56%)
• Christian Eriksen
  • Top 3 performer - 0 games (0%)
  • Top 5 performer - 1 games (11%)
• Fred
  • Top 3 performer - 2 games (17%)
  • Top 5 performer - 4 games (33%)
• Marcus Rashford:
  • Top 3 performer - 6 games (50%)
  • Top 5 performer - 7 games (58%)

Only Rashford had more top 3 performances (by 1) in the big PL games last season, and nobody had close to as many top 5 performances as Bruno.

FYI, our top performing players for the 22/23 PL season as a whole were:

Fernandes - 7.44
Casemiro - 7.17
Rashford - 7.08

But what about Europe? I've done the same for our knockout stage games.

• Bruno Fernandes:
  • Top 3 performer - 2 games (40%)
  • Top 5 performer - 4 games (80%)

*5 games total as Bruno missed the game against Sevilla (we lost 3-0.)

​

Given the above, it's unfair to make the statement that "Bruno is bad in almost all big games" when his performance ratings show that he is more often than not one of our top 5 performers in big games, and c. 40% of the time he's in the top 3. Ratings for an individual game don't tell a full story, but when you're using 38 games and Bruno still the consistently highest rated player in the team, you start to wonder why a small group of fans on a United forum hold such an agenda.

For completeness, here are the PL season ratings for the other top 4 teams.

City
KDB - 7.58
Haaland - 7.54
Grealish - 7.33
Rodri - 7.26
Foden - 7.13

Arsenal
Jesus - 7.42
Saka - 7.40
Odegaard - 7.29
Martinelli - 7.25
Partey - 7.06

Newcastle
Trippier - 7.41
Joelinton - 7.24
Bruno G - 7.21
Isak - 7.06
Schar - 7.05

West Ham
Rice - 7.01
Paqueta - 6.97
Bowen - 6.81
Soucek - 6.80
Benrahma - 6.70

What does this show?

1. That the ratings work as a base assessment of performance: If you asked who the best players were for each of those teams last season, at least 3 of those names would appear in anyone's top 5 for that team.
2. Not enough of our midfielders and forwards performed to a high level last season. I haven't included above, but the 4th-7th spots on our team were occupied by 3 full backs and a CB.

I'll use this moment to say that @Jeppers7 tagged me and asked whether I thought Bruno Fernandes had good or bad performances this season. My response was going to be that I thought Bruno played especially good against Forest and in parts against Spurs/Arsenal, just like the rest of the time, and that I didn't think he played particularly poorly in any of our opening games. According to Whoscored, Bruno Fernandes has been a top 5 performer in all our of games so far this season. This doesn't mean that Bruno has been outstanding, but it does suggest that as a group we do not have enough individuals pulling their weight to execute the team's instructions. And finally regarding the Brighton game at the weekend, which generated 40+ comments in this thread from @zaafi, I felt that only Casemiro and McTominay performed at a level below the rest of the team.

Moving on...

The majority in this thread wants to get rid of him.
Nope, 5-10 guys that shout louder and more often than everybody else want to get rid of him. There are 50K+ United fans I sit beside every single week that recognise him as one of our most important players.

Did anyone want Keane, Scholes, Giggs or Cantona to feck off?
Hahahaha, yes they did. All 4 of them actually, at varying points of their careers. You can probably get a sense of this by reading through some old Carrick threads.



So yeah... I've used data to support the above, focusing mainly on last season because that's what the majority of arguments have been based on (Bruno undisputed GOAT in 19/20, 20/21, 21/22), and it's clear that most of the shite that's thrown around here is baseless.

Finally, for completeness, Bruno has rated either 1st or 2nd in performance for United every season since joining in January 2020... across BOTH PL and European competitions. 8/8.