perhaps. Maybe we are all thinking of mount as being played with bruno, when in reality he has been brought in to phase out bruno. Amrabat/casemiro/mount midfield 3 could work saturday if that is what we decide on.
8
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 48
- Goals
- 15
- Assists
- 13
- Yellow cards
- 12
- Status
I think its time we ought to try a few things without Bruno and Rashford.
We have players arguably better than them at their positions.
We would probably be way more coherent and stable.
We have players arguably better than them at their positions.
We would probably be way more coherent and stable.
I have no time to rewrite what I have written here severally.
Pre 2020. We didn't lose more twice with more than 4 goals. ( Mourinho 4-0 to Chelsea 2017, Ole Everton 4-0).
Post 2020 to date. We have lost over 10 games with more than 4 goals or more. Why because we have have control in matches, we become chaotic team.
Even between 2018 Dec (Ole start as caretaker) - Jan 2020 (Bruno introduction to the team) I believe we lost only 1 game with over 4 goals. Everton away.
Even going to Anfield in 2020, when Liverpool were at the peak of their powers with such a team below, was only beaten 2-0. With a Salah 94th minute 2nd goal.
De Gea
Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof , Maguire , Shaw ,
Matic, Fred,
Williams , Pereira, James
Martial.
We changed everything to become a Hollywood football team, chaotic football team. Results have been devastating.
Since the 2-0 defeat at Anfield in 2020. We have played Liverpool 7 times in all competitions.
We have shipped in 23 goals.
We have scored 6 goals only.
In PL only.
we have scored only 3 goals against Liverpool in 6 games. ( 2 were last season at OT)
While we have shipped 21 goals in those 6 games.
Anfield is the ultimate test for a United team.
And interestingly, we are been becoming worse and worse.
I think you know who made us Hollywood football, chaotic team, zero control team.
Wait for this season trip to Anfield, it will be a massacre but we will act surprised when we ship 4 goals again.
I will say it again, until we move away from Bruno we will never have a resemblance of being a top team. We need controlled football and he's the biggest hindrance to that.
We will change managers, defenders, midfielders, GK, Strikers etc but until we become a controlling football team we will never win anything big.
I thought he was going to do that at the beginning of last year with Eriksen.
Yeah, like Jim Carrey in Number 23. Completely mental and obsessive.
Unlike Pogba, posters are not blaming others for not unlocking his true potential.
I think It was fairly obvious he was there to replace the McFredfield.
I don't disagree, Brunos misplaced passes and sulking is (amongst other things) killing us.
I don't think he can change, so he needs to be benched - his energy could be useful as a sub, an expensive one sub.
That argument had some problems, but it wasn't entirely daft. Pogba has no idea how to play as a defensive midfielder yet he was played as a DM for a very long time. He was surrounded by midfielders who were unworthy of the shirt.
That said, I am of the old school that holds that if you really are a world class footballer you can perform at a world class level no matter who your teammates are.
What stat site are you using? Progressive passing doesn’t signify anything about risk or length. Progressive passing distance is a pointless stat until it’s developed more because at the moment it’s literally just measuring any pass that goes towards the opponents goal hence why the top players are all GKs.
That is exactly what I'm arguing, mate
Pogue is the one you should be quoting, as he is the one making that claim. Progressive distance passing has no connection with the difficulty of a pass.You could have saved yourself the time to write this drivel. You list a summary of results that nobody asked for, then you say that results at Anfield are the ultimate test and then you somehow conclude all that to one specific player. That isn't logic, that is nothing. To say that one player changed how a team plays is dumb at best. Agenda-driven at worst. I was in here criticizing Bruno before it was cool to jump on his back so I am sure as hell not acting as if he isn't to be criticized but to act as if he is somehow the one factor who lead to all the things you listed, is just wrong. He might be the poster boy for those developments but thats it. If you think, one player coming into a team is changing the complete tactical outlook, then congratulations, you have no clue at all. FYI - the last time we had something like control in games, was under LVG. And that control was meaningless possession without any goalthreat. Everything other was not really noteworthy. When Bruno was brought in, he embodied Oles ideas of super fast transitional football perfectly, this is when he shined. Him and Rashfords form together kept this club afloat - for better or worse. But at the end of the day, it isn't his fault alone that this club was incapable by now to move towards a more controlled type of football.
By now I get what some posters here mean about hysterics. Your post is exactly that - it is a doom mongering collection of random fact snippets and questionable causalities and connections. Using big words like "never" and "hes the biggest hindrance" but at the end of the day, you are just scapegoating one individual for everything that is wrong right now. That isn't criticising him - thats just BS. Same goes for the "we will act suprised again" line, which does nothing than to show your superiority complex. Get it together, just think logically - ETH could just bench him and from one day to the other, the biggest issue in your view would be gone. In your simplified reality, this is already making us more controlled. You sure about that? How?Control isn't increased by taking one player away. It takes quite a bit more. And if you'd be half as smart as you act, you'd know that yourself. We have many issues and in the final objective, we are even aligned - but your imagination of how to get there is as simplified as it gets.
If you think, that is an "analysis", then you are just as broken as the original author.
Bruno is still a quality player IMO but his doubters are starting to win me over.
A small thing, but when took that hopeless long distance shot late in the match v Gala that went way above the bar and then he whinged at his teammates he disgraced himself. It’s one thing to go for it on a low percentage chance, but he had decent options and he uncaptainlike of him to blame others for his mistake. We all get that he’s emotional, but blaming others for his own mistake is not a reputable display of emotion. It was at that point the world could see that Bruno gave up.
A small thing, but when took that hopeless long distance shot late in the match v Gala that went way above the bar and then he whinged at his teammates he disgraced himself. It’s one thing to go for it on a low percentage chance, but he had decent options and he uncaptainlike of him to blame others for his mistake. We all get that he’s emotional, but blaming others for his own mistake is not a reputable display of emotion. It was at that point the world could see that Bruno gave up.
Omg that enraged me.
I think the reason his critics make more sense now is cuz we have Mount who plays the same position and just seems as a more steady more complete player.
Not capable of same highs, not as individually skilled but way more within himself. When you have Bruno you kinda gotta play through him and defer everything to him.
Funny enough, this now allows us to look back on the whole Cristiano situation.
One of the main reason many wanted to get rid of Cristiano was because him and Bruno couldnt really play well together and Ronaldo was blamed.
Well now in hindsight especially given we have Mount, is anyones opinion changed?
No
I'm not sure that's necessarily true, it's very easy to just lump the ball forward or clip it into the channel or loop one over the top. Is there a way of seeing how many of these progressive passes result in chances being created either directly or by the next action?
A different role, but for example I am going off memory of watching Roy Keane play, he passed it forward a lot and even if you look at his passing videos you can see it. The next pass or the one after regularly ended up with a chance being created or a goal being scored. Different roles I know, but I'm fairly sure the same could be said for players like Carrick, Viera, Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard etc.
According to fbref Bruno is in the 97th percentile for passes attempted, the 99th percentile for progressive passes and shot creating actions. But he's only in the 38th percentile for passes completed 73%, and 28th for progressive passes recieved. I know the ball has to travel a certain amount before they classify it as a progressive pass. But that seems weird as he's the one you want showing for the ball in the opposition half.
I'm just curious if there's a way of saying, yeah he creates a lot of chances directly, but he does he create indirectly by playing the pass for the assist?
| Statistic | Per 90 | Percentile |
|---|---|---|
| Non-Penalty Goals | 0.15 | 34 |
| Non-Penalty xG | 0.23 | 63 |
| Shots Total | 2.66 | 81 |
| Assists | 0.26 | 81 |
| xAG | 0.52 | 99 |
| npxG + xAG | 0.75 | 98 |
| Shot-Creating Actions | 6.22 | 99 |
| Passes Attempted | 57.81 | 97 |
| Pass Completion % | 73.4% | 38 |
| Progressive Passes | 7.39 | 99 |
| Progressive Carries | 2.15 | 17 |
| Successful Take-Ons | 0.98 | 16 |
| Touches (Att Pen) | 4.11 | 54 |
| Progressive Passes Rec | 6.65 | 28 |
| Tackles | 1.94 | 84 |
| Interceptions | 0.64 | 79 |
| Blocks | 1.09 | 57 |
| Clearances | 1.15 | 97 |
| Aerials won | 0.43 | 41 |
To those struggling to see what all of have been saying for years.
Imagine a scenario right now in which Bruno moves to Arsenal and Odegard to United. There you have your answer on how just changing one player can give you so much of an advantage in terms of control, ball retention, even creativity and affect the team so much.
We need a calm presence with the ball. Having players who thrive in chaos affects the team all the way to the last line of defence. We can never win anything meaningful with Bruno Fernandez playing as chaotically as he is.
Imagine a scenario right now in which Bruno moves to Arsenal and Odegard to United. There you have your answer on how just changing one player can give you so much of an advantage in terms of control, ball retention, even creativity and affect the team so much.
We need a calm presence with the ball. Having players who thrive in chaos affects the team all the way to the last line of defence. We can never win anything meaningful with Bruno Fernandez playing as chaotically as he is.
Obviously Keane and Carrick existed in the era before all this death by stats but I’d imagine their progressive passing stats would also be good.
I do think it’s harder to make progressive passes for midfielders who are higher up the pitch (hence Bruno’s “progressive distance” is over twice as high as Odegaard’s) as you just have fewer options for vertical passes in the final third. Although we all know Bruno tends to cover every inch of grass, so has plenty of opportunities to make those vertical passes from deep areas as well. A good example being in the final seconds against Galatasaray when he pinged an absolute peach to Dalot, who cocked up a step over right before the final whistle. That pass must have travelled at least 40 metres.
I don’t really know what a high vs low progressive passes received tells us about a player? Maybe if it’s low it means he’s not good at finding the pockets of space needed to collect these progressive passes? Or it’s a reflection of the other players making those passes? You can’t receive progressive passes that your team mates aren’t attempting, after all.
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That is a good post. Ya Arsenal with Bruno would most likely become way more chaotic and inconsistent.
Its very easy to see.
Every give away to any premier league team is giving them an opportunity to score, even the worst of the worst.
he doesn’t work in a ten Hag team, he’s more of a luxury or as a false 9 with two extemely effective goal scoring wingers then yeah, he’d be great
that is shocking!
Hopefully he turns up tomorrow. He’s been absolutely gash this season and was mediocre all of last season.
Mount should be picked ahead of him for a game or two.
So you've taken a bunch of results and decided that's it down to one player.
Just for comparison, to check the logic here.
From Bruno's arrival to the end of that particular season here's what happened:
1. Won more points than any other team
2. Conceded less than any other team
3. Only behind City in goals scored
All that got us third spot.
So by your own logic that was down to Bruno right? No other factors could have contributed.
Making an attacking midfielder individually responsible for goals conceded is also beyond stupid but here we are…
He was played as a CM, AM, on the left of a three (as the caf had demanded), no10, no8, right and left side of the front 3, etc. He served up the exact same garbage in all of those roles. Very good when he both wanted to be and could be bothered to focus, which wasn't all that often. Not that the "it's everyone else's fault" argument ever did make sense but it got put to bed about 15 times over.
I don't think it's a good comparison with Fernandes who is generally focused and hard working most games. I think Bruno's problem is his lack of physicality more than anything else. I don't think it's a huge problem losing the ball a bit more because you try to create, but he loses it quite a bit because he just gets brushed off it or tries a ridiculous dive, and when we don't have it and are pressing opposition players often just mow through or sprint past him.
And I keep relentlessly banging on about this but this is made a much bigger problem by putting Mount in midfield because exactly the same thing happens to him. We looked OK for a lot of last season because we had Eriksen and Casemiro working as a pair behind Bruno. This season we seem to be trying to incorporate him amd Mount into some kind of high sitting midfield and it's just back to Ole's last season where every team runs straight through it. I don't think you can be a direct team AND a high pressing team unless you're extremely physical and extremely well organised positionally. We are neither.
I agree with you analysis re Bruno and Mount, but on Pogba although I do agree he switched off far too often there really can be no doubt that under Jose and Ole he was playing under dumpster fire conditions most of the time. Pogba was a headcase, no question, but what he didn’t seem to appreciate was that under the Glazers that the club had lost its soul and that it had become nothing more than a cash generating machine and a joke on the pitch. We brought in shit players and paid them obscene wages and the manager’s tactics, both under Jose and Ole, were Neanderthal. Pogba acted like a child and deserves criticism, but when he could be bothered he had no one around him who was anywhere close to his talent and athleticism he could play the ball to.
When are you ever right Pogue? You being completely opposite on this as well reassures all of us “beyond stupid” people that we’re right.
Anyone who has played football at any level knows what happens when you give the ball away time after time.
Heck, imagine our defenders continuously running to defend and the moment your team wins the ball back and you have time to take a breather, Bruno loses it again to a hollywood flick.
The biggest issue with Bruno is that he never knows when to slow down the game and keep the ball.
There is a reason we concede so many goals and our defenders are always injured. It’s because we have no control of the football.
Oh dear not that spell again. Its bad enough he’s starting based on his performances years ago - you don’t have to use it as an argument to prove a stupid point.
I'm afraid you've completely missed the point.
What would it say about Ten Hag's judgement if this was the case? He worked with him for a year, made him Captain, and then a month into the new season, he's phasing him out... hardly joined-up decision-making.
Man Utd 2:1 Brentford
Bench him and let him discover his form in training.
Really poor player
He's too scared to drop him
He should thank Rashford for taking the spotlight. Otherwise he would regulary be the worst player on the pitch.
He is supposed to be one of the leaders but instead he just doesn't take control at all. Should be benched for Eriksen or Hannibal.
Utter shite. Drop him for Mount and Antony asap.
1 good performance in 10 appearances this season.
Not spectacular, but back to solid again today.
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