Can we stop blaming managers and start looking at the real problem?

[redshaw]

It's daunting how far we're behind.

Feels like two steps forward with AWB and Maguire but four back, a transfer window half done. We seem weaker than last season.

All we can hope and pray for is some of the young players do well and some of our dross can put a bit of form together. We're just blatantly winging it now so to speak.

I feel sorry for Maguire, he joined the clown version of United, no-one to put a dead ball on his head and severely lacking in quality players and relying on misfits. If I was him I'd want some assurances before joining and probably would've refused. Long term it could be a good move if we can somehow get the club working again, I just don't see it happening. The Glazers if they're not going to sell need to get some people in who can see the utter shambles of a squad we have while spunking up 80 and 90 million on Pogba and Maguire.

Ole might not be a good manager but he needed a midfielder and striker at least.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Ok so let me balance the argument a bit:

• between December and April Ole won 10 out of 13 Premier League games (achieving 32 out of a possible 36 points) with a side that was not even as good (certainly defensively) as the one he has now
• During the above-mentioned run Ole narrowed an 11 point gap to fourth spot put United in an unlikely Champions League qualification spot
• During the above-mentioned period there was no, I repeat no injection of cash, no new players were brought in during the January transfer window. In fact one player (Marouane Fellaini was let go)
  
• It was because of that incredible run of form that Ole was offered the United job on a permanent basis
• In the 2019/20 summer window United brought in probably the best defensive right back in the country in Aaron Wan-Bissaka and England's number one centre back in Harry Maguire. A promising Welsh winger Dan James was also brought in (four games into the new season Dan James is now United's top scorer)
• At the beginning of the season Ole himself stated that he is happy with his squad
• Ole has sanctioned the departure of Romelu Lukaku, Alexis Sanchez and Chris Smalling

Now is anyone on this thread seriously suggesting that the lack of investment is players caused United to lose to likely relegation candidates Crystal Palace at Old Trafford and draw against Southampton (who played with 10 men for 20 minutes) at St Mary's?

No-one is suggesting that United should not strengthen. No-one is implying that the Board are not culpable and should not be held responsible, but are we serious, seriously suggesting that Ole (the coach, in-game strategist, tactician, first team selector, squad rotator, motivator and team mentor) should not be held accountable for United's 5 out of 12 point haul?

I am not suggesting that Ole should be sacked. Elsewhere on this forum I have advocated that he be given a target of top four with a final judgement being made at the end of the season. I stand by that view because we need to see incremental improvement. But to suggest that Ole is some poor unfortunate victim of events far outside his control is utter nonsense and largely symptomatic of the managerial fanboy worship that now masquerades as club loyalty.

This has to stop for the good of the fans, for the good of the club and for the good of Ole.

Like most things, the reality is somewhere in between but Caf fans always go to the extremes (not you poster but some of the recent threads started are embarrassing).

..... Lukaku was great/we should have kept him ... or ... Lukaku is shite/glad we sold him

Now we have .. Ole is fine/he's changing things but he needs time .... or .... Ole is shite and out of his depth.

Ole is partly to blame (some of his team selections/subs have been poor)

the board/Ed are partly to blame because our managerial appointments/transfers have been poor/odd

But the players are too.... Ole doesn't tell Lindelof to lose players and be so weak at headers, he doesn't tell De Gea to let shots in at the near post, he doesnt let tell Lingard and Matic to try stupid shots instead of passing to well placed teammates, he doesn't make ref decisions like the Palace match, he doesn't force professional players to miss penalties.

He's making mistakes, he may or may not learn (NONE of us know) but it's definitely not all him. But he's also doing some things right and I really can't see the point in sacking another manager even if the results over the last 10-20 games have been poor. Not because he scored the winner in 99 but because I'm not sure it's his fault (or enough of his fault).

 

[Green_Red]

The one consistent all through these dire 7 years, the people who single handedly destroy any momentum we might get.

They fecked over Moyes in the window with a display of incompetence never seen at this club. They then went and signed players the next manager didn't want. They then looked to have hot it right for once and then fecked over that manager by giving him nothing to build on our best period post Fergie.

We are constantly in a state of transition because managers are not being allowed to build a squad. They are getting a window or two at best and then the rug is swiftly pulled from beneath them.

Now Ole has been heavily restricted in the market and our squad looks laughably thin.

I am not defending each manager outright, but as a group. Moyes, van Gaal, Mourinho and now Ole have all been hamstrung by the owners and their lapdog. No manager, of any ability would succeed here, not any better than Jose did anyway because it's a case of one step forward, 3 steps back.

Sacking Ole just starts the process again. Nothing changes while they run the show.

Ole wont be sacked. He is being given the same backing Ferguson was given in the late 80s. People need to get used to the idea he is here and isnt leaving anytime soon.

 

[izzydiggler]

These threads popping up everywhere can basically be put into:

The owners, the CEO, the manager and the players all share some of the blame and changing one area won't solve anything.

The question is, how to make things better but there's so many issues, it's difficult to even know where to start. The club is mis-managed from top to bottom.

 

[hobbers]

We know we have an incompetent chief exec who went and hired Ole for no other reason than fan/media appeasement and propaganda reasons, owing to Ole being both a club legend and an easy scapegoat for when the inevitable shit hits the inevitable fan.

But just because Woodward is a useless twat with all football matters doesn't mean we persist with Ole, who's just as out of his depth in this role. They both need to go before we'll make any real progress.

We need to hire a sporting director to keep Woodward away from the football decisions, and also asap hire a manager with proper tactical nous and some legitimacy who will actually have a vision and be a draw to players.

From a coaching and a tactical standpoint, Ole offers nothing. That's plain as day and anyone who can't see that by now is in serious denial.

 

[NoLogo]

OP is right. Those who are now saying Ole isn't experienced enough. We had Mourinho the last three seasons, one of the most experienced managers out there and before that van Gaal for who goes the same, both proven winners, and they still both failed miserably due to our the Woody's incompetence.

 

[kr1s74]

The OP is spot on with this. Ok Ole is inexperienced at this level, but he knows United and will do the best for the club, rather than himself
(His 3 signings have pretty much been the best perfomers on the pitch ....give him some time to get others in, and see if it works)

 

[Robbie Boy]

Can we stop looking for one answer when obviously there are several things that are so wrong at the club

Exactly.

 

[fastwalker]

Like most things, the reality is somewhere in between but Caf fans always go to the extremes (not you poster but some of the recent threads started are embarrassing).

..... Lukaku was great/we should have kept him ... or ... Lukaku is shite/glad we sold him

Now we have .. Ole is fine/he's changing things but he needs time .... or .... Ole is shite and out of his depth.

Ole is partly to blame (some of his team selections/subs have been poor)

the board/Ed are partly to blame because our managerial appointments/transfers have been poor/odd

But the players are too.... Ole doesn't tell Lindelof to lose players and be so weak at headers, he doesn't tell De Gea to let shots in at the near post, he doesnt let tell Lingard and Matic to try stupid shots instead of passing to well placed teammates, he doesn't make ref decisions like the Palace match, he doesn't force professional players to miss penalties.

He's making mistakes, he may or may not learn (NONE of us know) but it's definitely not all him. But he's also doing some things right and I really can't see the point in sacking another manager even if the results over the last 10-20 games have been poor. Not because he scored the winner in 99 but because I'm not sure it's his fault (or enough of his fault).

Really good points made here. Thanks for responding.

The way I see it is fairly simplistic, in football the buck generally stops with the manager. Of course you are right, the manager doesn't tell or cause players to miss penalties or to miss glaring opportunities or to fail to get into goal scoring positions or to fail to cover their near post. You are absolutely correct about that, but the failure of players to do all of the above things rests with the manager. Otherwise we risk setting up some new standard to judge Ole than we did not apply to Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho. If players do not perform on the pitch Ole can sub them, bench them, drop them or rotate them. But once they have been selected he is 100% responsible for their on field performances. Let's just be clear about that.

Let's be reasonable and rationale here, if that were not the case, on what basis did the club offer Ole the job in the first place? We want to have it both ways, we want to be able to make spurious arguments exonerating Ole from accountability on one hand and on the other shower him with praise when things on the pitch are going well. Again, for the avoidance of doubt, Ole coaches the players, plans pre-game tactics, manages in-game strategy, selects the first team, rotates the squad, motivates, disciplines and mentors the players. That role is his and not the Board's. Ole has at his disposal the resources to get United to the top four. How do we know? He managed to do it (albeit briefly) last season with a first 11 that wasn't even as good as the one he has now, which even Ole say he is happy with.

Again, I am not advocating sacking Ole. He should be given, in my view until the end of season and set a target of top four. I love Ole, but not more than I love the club. No-one is bigger than the club, not Sir Alex, not Sir Matt, not Mourinho and not Ole. Ole will always be a legend at United come what may, but I will not lower my expectations of him as manager just because I am desperate for him to succeed.

 

[haram]

How about Woodward is clueless and Ole is also clueless.

 

[Womp]

Glazers ain't going anywhere so our only hope is to sign a manager good enough to overcome those hindrances. Ole isn't even close to that level, unfortunately.

 

[2E_MUFC]

Who made the decision to actually think it was ok to go into the season with only Rashford and Martial to play up to. It’s unfair to put so much on Greenwood yet. Rashford is the most overrated player we have ever had imo. We bought 3 good players, but the decisions this summer have been a shambles.

 

[Stacks]

LVG had Di Maria thrust upon him by the board. LVG didn't want him and wanted others instead. Looked what happened there. We knew LVG was sacked before the club had the decency to tell him

Mourinho wanted Maguire and was told he wasn't better than what we had (yet 1 season later suddenly he is better than what we have).

The board have an historic legacy of not backing managers and acting without any clear plan, the above are just a few clear instances. And look where it's got us.

Despite Louis stating in an interview that Di Maria was just one of many players on his transfer wish list.....

 

[OLLY ORANGE]

Who made the decision to actually think it was ok to go into the season with only Rashford and Martial to play up to. It’s unfair to put so much on Greenwood yet. Rashford is the most overrated player we have ever had imo. We bought 3 good players, but the decisions this summer have been a shambles.

Totally agree

 

[Rista]

Ole wont be sacked. He is being given the same backing Ferguson was given in the late 80s. People need to get used to the idea he is here and isnt leaving anytime soon.

So we've decided to give this huge backing to the least qualified manager we've had since SAF? I don't think even our board is that dumb. If he misses 4th, he's gone.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Who made the decision to actually think it was ok to go into the season with only Rashford and Martial to play up to. It’s unfair to put so much on Greenwood yet. Rashford is the most overrated player we have ever had imo. We bought 3 good players, but the decisions this summer have been a shambles.

There is bigger issue than just our forwards. No point getting new forwards if we can’t even create good chances & can’t dominate the midfield.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Ole wont be sacked. He is being given the same backing Ferguson was given in the late 80s. People need to get used to the idea he is here and isnt leaving anytime soon.

Then income of the club was 20mil( i think). Now it is 500 mil. And it is owned by Americans who are here only and only because of the money. Finishing outside top4 again will cost a lot of money. They will not accept that. He will get next 5 or 6 games and if he doesn't get results, he is out.

And to answer on thread question. Manager needs to get results. Winning against teams like Palace or Southampton is a must for every United manager. Sure, you can and you will drop points against smaller clubs but when you do it regulary like we do now then it is on him. Especially after 9 months in club

 

[Dennis_Law]

Nothing changes while they run the show.

While who runs the show? Come on, out with it, you mean 'The Glazers'. This is yet another thread bashing the Glazer family whilst turning a blind eye to whom is mainly responsible for how come they 'run the show'. Open your eyes Man Utd. fans and say it like it is.... google Rock of Gibraltar (the horse, not the place).

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

I somewhat agree, but at the same time, most of the players the previous managers bought turned out to be poor signings.

 

[Someone]

It's diffidently Woody.

The club has no vision, and this wastes a lot of money. LVG was nothing like moyes, Mourinho was nothing like LVG, Ole is nothing like Mourinho. Basically every time we have to start over again, new players, new philosophy, and new tactics.

It's not just about spending money, it's about having a specific clear direction. We don't.

 

[minoo-utd]

Millions of things we are saying but now it becomes very tiresome someone has to do something we need riots or something for what we feel. Club is not respecting us, everyone needs to go. We are only 4 games into the season and it felt like worst season already. Why all that! Ole had his fecking pre season and what he did? The man don't realize it is not 99 anymore. He needs to go and everyone need to go from these cnuts at the head to Ole. Sorry but it feels so sick, and shit weekend after another and we still in August ffs.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Old hat. Another manager will be gone by season's end and people will still be telling us how surportive and investment friendly Woodward supposedly is, and how he can get the 'next appointment right' and how we lack 'a modern attacking manager'

 

[Steerpike]

The OP is spot on with this. Ok Ole is inexperienced at this level, but he knows United and will do the best for the club, rather than himself
(His 3 signings have pretty much been the best perfomers on the pitch ....give him some time to get others in, and see if it works)

A sensible and objective observation.

There is a lot of work to be done to turn the squad into one that could conceivably challenge for the major prizes. It will involve getting new players in and offloading players who the manager believes will not be able to make the grade. He has been quite busy on both fronts and, by and large, his decisions have been sound.

Of course it would have been good if there had been some more arrivals, but finding and getting the right players was never going to be straightforward (we're competing for the same players as lots of other clubs and are not able to offer CL football). I'm also not sure that letting Chris Smalling go was a good move, but Ole may have felt it wasn't right to stand in the way of a move which offered him more first team football.

Our prior experience of hiring proven managers should be enough to show that it's no guarantee of success, and I'm very happy to let Ole continue with the rebuild.

 

[bond19821982]

There are managers who yields or has yielded better results with less money than what Manchester United managers had in the last 6 years. So stop putting everything on Glazers or Ed. Ole is clueless and if you haven't known this by now, you will realize this by October.

 

[R'hllor]

Lets stop with bullshit, % of this fanbase have similar ambition to owners and self proclaimed DoF. Whats the point of giving managers X amount to spend when you hop from one to another with zero plan and vision. Moyes to LvG to JM to Ole, i mean really, one buys Blind, another one sells him, one extends contract to Fellaini, another one sells him few months after, Lukaku etc. plenty of examples. 80% plus of this place wanted JM in, his bad and good sides werent unknown, what you thought it gonna happen at the end!?

So dont pretend that you were against every decision that EW has made. Also his mentality is similar to fan base when it comes to buying world class player, there is almost none focus on team perspective. wanting such player to win us a games week in week out with moment or two of brilliance, doesnt matter if we have piss poor performance as a team. No wonder people expect so much from Pogba. Well now we dont have some God to carry other clowns while performance is on such a low level, comparing with other teams, makes you wonder are we even playing the same sport.

People today complained about selling some players, like they werent part of the squads finishing 5th, 6th, etc, saying how they would be solution for our problems if they were here, yea right, give me a break. Speaking of which, seems more and more people see the solution in us buying quality and quality, and then what? We are not able to keep their quality up on the same level as before they joined, after few months, there is downhill for most. Since SAF we didnt improve a single soul that we bought, dont think i ever seen anything like it.

Besides not being able to improve players, we also look clueless in most situation when it comes to playing football. There is nothing to show for when it comes to play in final third, nothing. No patterns of attacking play, no idea, nada, today someone mentioned cut backs and City scoring from them almost every week, do people really believe that we would solve that just by buying quality players and thats it. Sometimes i really wonder what we are doing on the training ground and lets be real, we were wondering about it for last 5 years.

All in all its a proper shitshow.

 

[minoo-utd]

Lets stop with bullshit, % of this fanbase have similar ambition to owners and self proclaimed DoF. Whats the point of giving managers X amount to spend when you hop from one to another with zero plan and vision. Moyes to LvG to JM to Ole, i mean really, one buys Blind, another one sells him, one extends contract to Fellaini, another one sells him few months after, Lukaku etc. plenty of examples. 80% plus of this place wanted JM in, his bad and good sides werent unknown, what you thought it gonna happen at the end!?

So dont pretend that you were against every decision that EW has made. Also his mentality is similar to fan base when it comes to buying world class player, there is almost none focus on team perspective. wanting such player to win us a games week in week out with moment or two of brilliance, doesnt matter if we have piss poor performance as a team. No wonder people expect so much from Pogba. Well now we dont have some God to carry other clowns while performance is on such a low level, comparing with other teams, makes you wonder are we even playing the same sport.

People today complained about selling some players, like they werent part of the squads finishing 5th, 6th, etc, saying how they would be solution for our problems if they were here, yea right, give me a break. Speaking of which, seems more and more people see the solution in us buying quality and quality, and then what? We are not able to keep their quality up on the same level as before they joined, after few months, there is downhill for most. Since SAF we didnt improve a single soul that we bought, dont think i ever seen anything like it.

Besides not being able to improve players, we also look clueless in most situation when it comes to playing football. There is nothing to show for when it comes to play in final third, nothing. No patterns of attacking play, no idea, nada, today someone mentioned cut backs and City scoring from them almost every week, do people really believe that we would solve that just by buying quality players and thats it. Sometimes i really wonder what we are doing on the training ground and lets be real, we were wondering about it for last 5 years.

All in all its a proper shitshow.

Good point(s). But what do you think the problem is?

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

There are managers who yields or has yielded better results with less money than what Manchester United managers had in the last 6 years. So stop putting everything on Glazers or Ed. Ole is clueless and if you haven't known this by now, you will realize this by October.

Less money yes, but the squads are generally better constructed.

You can highlight extremes such as Leicester, their squad made so much more sense than ours. Spurs have spent less but have done so with a purpose/plan.

The money argument is the one I hear a lot of supporters from other clubs spout & its redundant. You can spend all the money you like, if it is invested badly it doesn’t matter.

OgS being out of his depth is looking increasingly like the case but the underinvestment in relation to club turnover is huge, & this isn’t simply about the product on the pitch; the ground is in need of serious updating for example. . .

Everyone shares some blame.

 

[Andersonson]

Sacking Mourinho was a big mistake. He even called out the club in public for their incompetence, and we hated him for it.

Atleast he had some balls

 

[Cheesy]

The fact we've been run incompetently doesn't excuse for the fact that each of our managers since Fergie have been uniquely rubbish in their own way. Moyes just obviously wasn't capable from the start, LVG refused to change his awful brand of football when it wasn't working, Mourinho's decline was already becoming evident before he arrived and his third season collapses have become increasingly common, while Solskjaer hadn't given us anything to suggest he was even remotely capable before being given the job full-time.

Our appointments have either been managers you wouldn't really expect to succeed, or good managers who didn't fit the post. This isn't uncommon: look at most clubs and you'll find failed managers are often as common as, if not more common than, successful ones. And initially successful/passable choices (Mourinho/LVG) will often regress to being rubbish once whatever they were doing at first stops working.

 

[Cheesy]

Sacking Mourinho was a big mistake. He even called out the club in public for their incompetence, and we hated him for it.

Atleast he had some balls

We literally allowed Mourinho to make a world record signing when he first arrived and then to make one of the most expensive transfers of all-time in Lukaku as well. I like Maguire but the idea he alone would've had us mounting a title challenge (which should have been the expectation last season) is fairly silly.

 

[predator]

I agree mostly but surely Ole could've signed a striker who is relatively experienced / decent. We are desperately lacking presence in the box because the likes of Rashford, Greenwood simply aren't seasoned strikers. We need a centre forward. Mandzukic springs to mind. He wouldn't have cost a fortune so what's the excuse?

 

[RooneyLegend]

There's more than enough blame to go around, even match going fans arent exempt of blame.

 

[Foxbatt]

Seriously does anyone think that this squad cannot play better than this?
I wonder what is the role of Phelan and Carrick in this club?
The way we are set up is not the way Phelan would have set up and neither it was the way Carrick played. A two man midfield is not going to work and has never worked with Pogba. Neither is it going to work against a 4 man midfield. Nor do we have a world class striker who can hold the ball.
So why on Earth are we playing like this still?
Most moves are practiced in training. It looks like we are strangers on the pitch. Look at our set pieces. It is always way beyond the far post or hits the first defender. Our free kicks are wacked no matter where it is being taken place.
As for defending set pieces no one seems to know what and who is doing what.
It's not down to the Glazers or Woodward we are so horrible. It's down to The coaching or rather lack of it and it's down to The Manager.

 

[R'hllor]

Good point(s). But what do you think the problem is?

We aint a football club.

 

[Sky1981]

Maybe... when we as fans stop applausing non stop to the shit show that is rashford lingard pogba everytime they show shit games not on a rare occasion but many occasions the club will feel the urgency.

If clapping and supporting teams 90 minutes dont work perhaps we should try giving them a bigger stick.

Players like lingard has the tenacity to show 0.02 percent bullshit while playing like championship players and we applaud that on the pitch. Good lad, academy lad, british, united value et al.

No wonder the whole club and manager becomes complacent. The last manager that dares to stick em up and throw them under the bus got hounded out of the club, yet here we are scratching our head why they perform badly week after week.

You can coach stupid but you cant coach arrogance. Our player is infected with arrogance since moyes era, we fecked up big time when we side with them. Too bad moyes was just so bad we cant even afford to back him. Now every players know they can outlast the manager, especially if they're british and united academy.

Where are the hungers? Pogba can afford to not give a feck because they know at the end of the day we'll bend our knees for his signature. Young playing like dross and got a contract extension, being made captain, mata got a contract extension just for writing a nice blog and puppy blue eyes...

 

[amolbhatia50k]

No, have the ability to blame more than one person.

Woodward needs to go. But sadly, Ole also doesn't appear to be good enough.

 

[RedRonaldo]

The problem is transition between each of manager with completely different approach:

From legendary respectful Fergie (great man management, play fully to players strength, understand the club in and out, with flexible, adaptive approach)
to clueless Moyes (totally clueless and out of depth, with mid-table football mentality)
to out-dated possession football LVG (slow, boring possession, zero creativity approach)
to park the bus specialist Mourinho heading to dawn (defensive hoof ball approach with poor player management, toxic in dressing room, living on past success)
to unproven Ole (pressing style, more adventurous, fans favourite, but seriously lacking tactical knowledge, and running out of steam/ideas)

There's no sign of coherency in between the transition of each of manager, so we start every from scratch each time, and the players look confused too. Plus most of the appointment are bad choice (Moyes and Ole are simply not up to it, LVG is too old school and clearly past it, Mourinho doesn't suit club philosophy and has a reputation of being toxic in his 3rd year)

 

[CR7000]

Man City were able to sign Silva and Aguero when they were not in Champion league. That shows how well people there work. Quality players come anyway. For Man utd, only average player come and for the money.

 

[tjb]

I think the problem we have had during the woodward era is that the leadership model that we have used since Sir Alex has not fit the type of managers we have employed. They all proved to just be good coaches (except moyes), but lacked the long term vision that the role and leadership model required. Mourinho and LVG were both looking for quick rebuilds, recklessly signing players that proved to be ill suited to the club. An example of this was LVG. He came in preseason and bought players for a 352 formation. He signed 6 average players and sold a number of quality players who he either didn't like due to personal grievances or just did not fit the 352 he wanted to play in. Players like Nani and Kagawa were sold because they did not fit this system. a month into the season, he completely changed strategy after gutting the club and signing average sub standard players, having no regard for the financial strain it put on the club.

 

[Jim Beam]

Yes, the blame is shared. All managers have done a pretty shit job at actual coaching and developing the team/individuals within.

But, a fish rots from the head down and the team is a pretty good reflection of how the club has been run during last 6 years. I must admit one thing, they seem to be doing an exceptional job at finishing managers careers at the highest level once they come to United.