Can we talk about the elephant in the room when it comes to purging this squad?

[cyril C]

About 20 odd years ago Chelsea signed Winston Bogarde on a free transfer.

After a season or so he found himself sitting on the bench most of the time. He was asked whether he wanted to move as he was in his twilight years and not getting game time. He replied by saying “ Why would I want to move? I’m being paid £50k a week and no other club in the world will pay me that!”

I get the impression that a lot of our squad have a similar stance to him.

I also recall another Chelsea player - Parker. Who decided to take a pay cut in order to have game time. Not so much for World Cup ambition, simply to be able to play while he can. There are players like Sanchez, willing to take a pay cut.

There will be cases like our Henderson, who would like to move out, but most clubs would not be able to afford his wages. As much as we like to retain his service, you have to accept his wish, but we are not going to let him go on the cheap simply because other clubs don't want to pay his 100K wage.

At the end of the day, the new manager will have to decide who he wants to retain, and who (or equivalent) he wants to recruit. Surplus players, and those likely to warm the bench, will have to make the own decision.

Regarding Henderson, I favour inserting a buy-back clause, that we can always take him back at a reasonable price, although we have to let him go below market value.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

A purge won't be too hard.

Mata, Pogba, Cavani and Lingard are out this summer.

Jones, Matic, Shaw, Matic, Fred, Dalot and Rashford could go next summer if we don't renew.

Martial and Donny both likely want out anyway and Ronaldo must be eager to leave too.

I'm not saying we don't let them all leave on frees, but if we want a big clear out - just buy not renewing we could have most of the squad gone in 3 summers.

A lot of these players will naturally leave or want to leave and we will have a skeleton squad of senior players and people will still be shouting from the rooftops that we need rid of Maguire, McTominay, Wan Bissaka as well immediately and even the likes of De Gea on top.

 

[Someone]

I don't think it's players power, but rather the culture within the team. Most of them have a weak mentality, and overall a casual attitude while playing. It's something that took time to reach this level. And when you combine that with managerial failures and the overall lack of a sporting project at the club, you can see why we are at rock bottom right now.

The new manager along with the club will need to set higher standards, and push out the bad apples.

 

[Greck]

I think you guys set up like this by backing the players more than your manager when you had Mourinho in charge. It doesn't have to be Mourinho specifcally but when you have a bunch of overpaid and underperforming players the team as an institution should prioritize team performances and results in order to have the right culture.

When he was at Real Madrid it was the perfect time as we were getting embarrassed in Champions League every single year, the team needed some discipline and catch up to Barcelona instead of pandering to our overpaid players. There were conflicts with him and the players but the team got rid of him and the toxic players; and I can't really comprehend why have you kept players like Pogba around for so long when the've done so little at the club. So it seems Manchester United has relied only on offering massive wages to lure players in but this also hinders them when trying to move them on and they stick to their players for way too long to the point they lose a lot of their market value.

There's a bit of a myth we backed the players over Jose when we would have had reason to sack Jose even if the likes of Pogba never stepped foot at this club. He created difficult situations with every stakeholder.

The fans were fed up with his football. Our rivals were trending upwards with beautiful football but we were being told we needed to play negative to win. Like we would need to spend a billion on the ultimate anti-footballing unit. Take a look at our midfield right now, all tall lads who can't move. That was Jose. He wanted a team full of athletes and large players to play dinosaur football.

He created a toxic situation within the dressing room overvaluing players like Lukaku and openly berating others to make them look good. Players like he, sanchez and Matic were excluded from having to earn their place. It was so hypocritical because they too weren't performing that much better than anyone else.

The actual fallout with the board came because we didn't get him the likes of Maguire. Listen, Woodward is an idiot and was an even bigger failure for buying him for Ole but Maguire wasn't worth what Leicester were asking. This harks back to my first statement that tossing Jose had little to do with backing whomever he was at war with. We don't like Woodward but that didn't make Jose any less full of shite. We sent Jose packing and can now look to send packing the rest. Woodward is gone and Pogba might also be on his way out.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

@Fortitude Footballers willingly spending years of their prime/career in the reserves or stands are few and far in between. As much as we vilify them, these players want to have the best careers they can and enjoy their football.

Given that, if you can't find a buyer to pay the necessary fee/wages, sell your on the cheap and bear a portion of their wages. It's not ideal but you have to take the hit if you want to clear the squad out. But let's face it, we aren't brave enough to sell many who are on contracts.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

There's a bit of a myth we backed the players over Jose when we would have had reason to sack Jose even if the likes of Pogba never stepped foot at this club. He created difficult situations with every stakeholder.

The fans were fed up with his football. Our rivals were trending upwards with beautiful football but we were being told we needed to play negative to win. Like we would need to spend a billion on the ultimate anti-footballing unit. Take a look at our midfield right now, all tall lads who can't move. That was Jose. He wanted a team full of athletes and large players to play dinosaur football.

He created a toxic situation within the dressing room overvaluing players like Lukaku and openly berating others to make them look good. Players like he, sanchez and Matic were excluded from having to earn their place. It was so hypocritical because they too weren't performing that much better than anyone else.

The actual fallout with the board came because we didn't get him the likes of Maguire. Listen, Woodward is an idiot and was an even bigger failure for buying him for Ole but Maguire wasn't worth what Leicester were asking. This harks back to my first statement that tossing Jose had little to do with backing whomever he was at war with. We don't like Woodward but that didn't make Jose any less full of shite. We sent Jose packing and can now look to send packing the rest. Woodward is gone and Pogba might also be on his way out.

Agree.

In fact Jose was allowed to sign a wide forward of his choice even though we had Martial and Rashford who fans liked. How did that turn out? He only signed our worst ever signing in Alexis Sanchez who was absolutely woeful. If he adds someone who had the impact of let's say Mane at Liverpool he would have earned not trust rather than a loss of it.

 

[Stig]

Mentioned on other post. Sell or terminate contract of players showing bad attitude. No fecking excuse!! Don't reward lazy ass players or players showing no hunger with bigger contract or even extending them.

We need to set precedent for incoming players (either from academy or transfer in). Playing for Manchester United is all about winning and maintain high-standard!! Otherwise, young player like Elanga would be contaminated. Play hard, get good wage and long term contract, then he look around and then see what he can get away with.

Massively expensive and Manchester United is a business.

The rest I agree with.

 

[Isotope]

"Terminate contract" sounds great, but how do you do that?

what do you mean? terminate is terminate. We compensate. Or subsidized like Arsenal and Aubameyang.

 

[Isotope]

Massively expensive and Manchester United is a business.

The rest I agree with.

agreed. But in time like this, we need to look on the big picture. Major shake up is needed.

Or maybe just tell the player that either he finds a new club (we can even subsidized the wage) or stay rotting in reserve.

 

[smi11ie]

Utd need a stingy Moneyball approach to contracts. It would deter greedy wastrells from wanting to sign for the club. Utd might miss out on the top players but they would change the mentality of the team, if a player wanted to move for more money he would have to impress on the pitch.

Liverpool seem to have a good balance. They offer football success rather than huge money. This attracts the "right" sort of player.

Also I would like to see a management structure tree for the backroom staff. I feel confused about it. It seems everyone has a fancy title without having authority to execute their role.

There is not alot Utd can do about unearned fat contracts currently in place but they can stop giving out more.

 

[tenpoless]

No, we cannot talk about Luke Shaw.

 

[Bebestation]

Is Martial a physical player for Mourinho?
Is Lukaku a counterattacking player for Ole?
Is Fellaini a possesion based player for Van gaal?
Is Wan Bissaka a Gegenpressing player for Rangnick?


For me our problem is that we have no management of the management. We have no plan of how we should be run for the next 10 years so we have players that may fit one manager but doesn't fit the next one. The manager for 2 years is Gegenpressing and the next manager is trying to play Possesion football.

The players will act like crap if they are viewed as crap by the manager.

It's just not a good flow or plan from plan A to plan B. Its Plan A to Plan Z and then back to Plan A or Plan B.

Whilst I'm not sure - I hope the new murtogh guy and Fletcher are trying to turn this around vs what we have seen under the Glazers and Woodward.

 

[VP89]

You just drop them. Its not rocket science. ETH will have his own players this summer.

 

[RedBanker]

You haven't "gone through managers so quickly". No other top club with a modicum of self-respect would have given three seasons to Solksjaer.

If anything, your players have become depressed and worn out by the poor quality of management above them.

This.

 

[stepic]

We need to pay more attention to the mentals of players we recruit.

 

[dpansheth]

We need to pay more attention to the mentals of players we recruit.

And/or players coming thru the academy

 

[AndySmith1990]

We need to pay more attention to the mentals of players we recruit.

We also need to significantly reduce the wages we offer to players. They walk through the door and before kicking a ball for us they're amongst the highest paid players in the league.

 

[Mylock]

United have failed to do proper due diligence when they buy players, which has led to the mess we're in at the moment.
Example
Sanchez - injured on and off for the last six months at Arsenal, troublesome in the dressing room.
De Maria - never wanted to leave Madrid; not suited manager style of football.
Pogba - left the club before, wanted to go to Spain, agent issues etc.
Wan Bisska - limited football skills, poor defender etc.
Harry - too slow, 50 m overpriced, better options available.
Rojo - criminal charges are pending for assault, injury-prone, not good enough.

James - only suitable for the left side.
Bailly - reckless, injury-prone.
Varane - injury prone.
Fred - is way overpriced.
Van De beek - is not suited to the English game.
Cavani - injury prone.
Ronaldo - passed it, not suited to the English game.

I could go on and on. Proper due diligence needs to be done.

 

[yamo123x]

Playing Squad is rotten, just a group of overpaid overrated players who hold way too much power at this club.

Leaking crap to the media, growing their own brands and putting in lifeless drab performances.

I know we can't cull as many as we would all want but these few will help

Pogba- go and take your circus with you
Lingard- dab off
Henderson- go and stop leaking negativity
Cavani- too injury prone
Martial- sulk off
Mata- retire gracefully
Ronaldo- GOAT but better for all he goes
AWB- just hasn't worked out

Shaw and Bailly come across really negative influences too and potential leakers but both should be starting if fit...

 

[steffyr2]

what do you mean? terminate is terminate. We compensate. Or subsidized like Arsenal and Aubameyang.

Contract is contract. Consider that word.
How do you TERMINATE a CONTRACT?

 

[Velvet Revolver]

Moyes was outed because he'd taken a team who'd cruised the league down to 7th. Just in case you'd forgotten.

Oh i know he was overawed on the job but the constant leaks didn't help did it? and also talks about Giggs letting him down was also running the rounds.

 

[Gandalf]

Contract is contract. Consider that word.
How do you TERMINATE a CONTRACT?

Literally the only way to do this is pay up the full value of the contract. If we have 10M left on someones contract for the next 2 seasons we can give them 10M to leave and they will be free to instantly go sign as a Free Agent somewhere else for a big bag of cash. I imagine if we terminate 1 players contract today we will have the entire squad asking to be terminated tomorrow.

 

[r1z3mu]

Contract is contract. Consider that word.
How do you TERMINATE a CONTRACT?

Yes, you can. Let's take Ronaldo who is making ~20M a year. ETH will tell Ronaldo that he is not going to be playing more that 1 game a month. So he will sit on the bench most of the games. If Ronaldo accepts that - yes, MU will have to keep paying full salary for one more year. Or Ronaldo agrees to take half (10M) and rip contract. Everybody wins - Ronaldo is free to go and MU lost only 10M instead of 20M.

 

[redIndianDevil]

If a manger wants rid of any from:

De Gea, Shaw, Maguire, AWB, Martial, Rashford (high earners) and they don’t entertain leaving, what happens? There are a lot of other players who can go, but I don’t think they are paid an exorbitant wage so the issue isn’t the same with them.



The question you should ask is: what if they can’t be coached and the manager decides he wants rid? and then we loop back to the crux of the matter.


I don’t know what relevance this has unless you believe high earners who a manger doesn’t want should be ushered into the background eating up budget whilst not contributing in accordance with their wage.


These facts have no relevance to the discussion, do they? In fact, you’ve done everything but address what I asked you. How will we sell high earners that don’t want to leave? If you have said high earners wages to deal with, how much can you devote to players coming in? If you don’t see the conundrum, you don’t wish to see it.

Well, that depends on how you answer what I’m asking you in this reply. If you come up with logical reasoning and explanation for how it’s not an issue, the conversation can end on your word.

I get that we all support Manchester United, but it's silly to expect players to leave their lucrative contracts just because they are not of the standard you expected. Whether you like it or not we have accumulated this squad because of our ineptitude and we can't expect any manager to replace the entire squad or "get" the players to leave on their own. We have to own up our mistakes and hope we dont do the same again.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Yes, you can. Let's take Ronaldo who is making ~20M a year. ETH will tell Ronaldo that he is not going to be playing more that 1 game a month. So he will sit on the bench most of the games. If Ronaldo accepts that - yes, MU will have to keep paying full salary for one more year. Or Ronaldo agrees to take half (10M) and rip contract. Everybody wins - Ronaldo is free to go and MU lost only 10M instead of 20M.

Excellent football manager logic here. If you piss off one of the agents this way, then you don't get to sign any good talent.

 

[r1z3mu]

Excellent football manager logic here. If you piss off one of the agents this way, then you don't get to sign any good talent.

So according to your logic we should be playing Ronaldo every game so he and his "powerful agent" don't get upset? And if we bench Ronaldo no talent will come to us? SAF would kick out any player who would think that they are larger than club. And now we are packed with aging superstars, their powerful agents.
My logic is actually right and your logic is exactly what's wrong with this club. We cave in and bend over too much and afraid people (players/agents) get upset.

Sorry to be combative but it really hurts to see my club in such a shumbles. It really does!

 

[lefty_jakobz]

I wrote something about this the other day and decided to delete it in the end, but the post below brought the thoughts to the fore again:



It’s a very real problem for us going forward no matter who the manager is.

It’s all well and good talking about clear outs and such, but what can actually be done with this squad and the plethora of players on wages few others will even consider if they refuse to leave?

Anyone who has been told they wont be playing and who then turns down transfers to other teams, let them play in the reserves.

Just keep them away from the first team squad, no training with the big boys, no hope of getting a first team game again. We have to be hard on them.

Treat them like shit instead of rewarding them for their mediocre effort and performances.

 

[Fortitude]

Anyone who has been told they wont be playing and who then turns down transfers to other teams, let them play in the reserves.

Just keep them away from the first team squad, no training with the big boys, no hope of getting a first team game again. We have to be hard on them.

Treat them like shit instead of rewarding them for their mediocre effort and performances.

I get the sentiment in the thread, but we're talking about our prime assets here for the most part. With that said, do you believe the scenario is realistic? The club that we are, one that has extended contracts on liabilities who don't even see the pitch frequently enough for it to be a predictable trend, will now turn around and cast genuinely big money players into any kind of nether realm?

I think this is a bigger problem than we care to admit and unique in that it's not one or two players on seriously over-egged contracts, but half of a starting xi. Buying them out is not realistic and would cost a fortune that we wouldn't sanction; partial subsidisation of their wage elsewhere, is the most likely, but even then, how far do you believe the club would go with that?

I'm just using De Gea as an example here, not stating with any certainty the next manager wants him out, but if he did, which club is going to take on the wages of one of the most well paid keepers on the planet? Easy answer is always an oil/state club, but is it likely? Is De Gea better than what any of them have? How would the club feel in paying, let's say £100k per week of his wage at another club... I just don't see it happening. You can exchange De Gea for any of our high earners and repeat the question.

Lots of clubs have had clearouts, but I don't know of any giant who has been in this predicament and it seems unprecedented to me. Barcelona recently went through the ringer with their disastrous financial management, but I'm not sure this is equivocal to that.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

I get the sentiment in the thread, but we're talking about our prime assets here for the most part. With that said, do you believe the scenario is realistic? The club that we are, one that has extended contracts on liabilities who don't even see the pitch frequently enough for it to be a predictable trend, will now turn around and cast genuinely big money players into any kind of nether realm?

I think this is a bigger problem than we care to admit and unique in that it's not one or two players on seriously over-egged contracts, but half of a starting xi. Buying them out is not realistic and would cost a fortune that we wouldn't sanction; partial subsidisation of their wage elsewhere, is the most likely, but even then, how far do you believe the club would go with that?

I'm just using De Gea as an example here, not stating with any certainty the next manager wants him out, but if he did, which club is going to take on the wages of one of the most well paid keepers on the planet? Easy answer is always an oil/state club, but is it likely? Is De Gea better than what any of them have? How would the club feel in paying, let's say £100k per week of his wage at another club... I just don't see it happening. You can exchange De Gea for any of our high earners and repeat the question.

Lots of clubs have had clearouts, but I don't know of any giant who has been in this predicament and it seems unprecedented to me. Barcelona recently went through the ringer with their disastrous financial management, but I'm not sure this is equivocal to that.

The problem we may have is those players not wanting to leave without getting the same sort of wage. We either pay them off which would most likely mean we have diminished funds for future transfers or we simply let them rot until they hand in transfer requests.

We are such a bad selling club we probably wouldnt be able to shift players for their true worth anyway.

 

[croadyman]

The problem we may have is those players not wanting to leave without getting the same sort of wage. We either pay them off which would most likely mean we have diminished funds for future transfers or we simply let them rot until they hand in transfer requests.

We are such a bad selling club we probably wouldnt be able to shift players for their true worth anyway.

Yeah the combination of overpaid players on ridiculous contracts (on Judge's head) has put us in this dire situation

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Yeah the combination of overpaid players on ridiculous contracts (on Judge's head) has put us in this dire situation

We hoard mediocrity. Be that players or staff.

The only thing we do well is sign merchandise deals.

 

[Abraxas]

The problem we may have is those players not wanting to leave without getting the same sort of wage. We either pay them off which would most likely mean we have diminished funds for future transfers or we simply let them rot until they hand in transfer requests.

We are such a bad selling club we probably wouldnt be able to shift players for their true worth anyway.

Not convinced we are a "bad selling club" in terms of gaining fair value, we have already crippled ourselves before that. Can't think of many assets we have shifted that have gone on to be great success stories in recent years that would suggest they were undersold.

Getting good prices relies on having assets that are appealing to buyers. That means selling people that are unexposed which relies on decisive decision making at the club which comes down to the footballing structure at the club. We make late decisions and cling onto players and their race is already ran in terms of what we can expect to receive. Or we try to flog people on exorbitant wages, when the only profile of club likely to be interested based on performance of the player and club is likely to be reduced.

We have to start at the root cause IMO, which is a long term process of addressing wage structure. It's not going to be easy as we have so many dead weights in situ and it will be hard to convince some new players. But over a number of years its possible.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

I’m no fan of Luke Shaw but labelling him the Elephant in the room is a tad too far.

 

[croadyman]

Not convinced we are a "bad selling club" in terms of gaining fair value, we have already crippled ourselves before that. Can't think of many assets we have shifted that have gone on to be great success stories in recent years that would suggest they were undersold.

Getting good prices relies on having assets that are appealing to buyers. That means selling people that are unexposed which relies on decisive decision making at the club which comes down to the footballing structure at the club. We make late decisions and cling onto players and their race is already ran in terms of what we can expect to receive. Or we try to flog people on exorbitant wages, when the only profile of club likely to be interested based on performance of the player and club is likely to be reduced.

We have to start at the root cause IMO, which is a long term process of addressing wage structure. It's not going to be easy as we have so many dead weights in situ and it will be hard to convince some new players. But over a number of years its possible.

Yeah the wage structure has been a major problem for years and means people pick us just for the money

 

[steffyr2]

Yes, you can. Let's take Ronaldo who is making ~20M a year. ETH will tell Ronaldo that he is not going to be playing more that 1 game a month. So he will sit on the bench most of the games. If Ronaldo accepts that - yes, MU will have to keep paying full salary for one more year. Or Ronaldo agrees to take half (10M) and rip contract. Everybody wins - Ronaldo is free to go and MU lost only 10M instead of 20M.

And then who else will sign for Utd?

 

[steffyr2]

Literally the only way to do this is pay up the full value of the contract. If we have 10M left on someones contract for the next 2 seasons we can give them 10M to leave and they will be free to instantly go sign as a Free Agent somewhere else for a big bag of cash. I imagine if we terminate 1 players contract today we will have the entire squad asking to be terminated tomorrow.

That's what I thought. Yes, we can pay off a players contract for the full value and then they can go find another job -- basically making double the money. Or we can pay them the same amount of money and use them as a player.
Use them as players. Find out how to get players to play as a team.
Every other team figures that out. We can too.

 

[Rightnr]

And then who else will sign for Utd?

Young ambitious players who want to make 5m/year?

 

[Loon]

There’s not one I would miss now if they were binned, but I have to accept that the new manager, whoever it may be, could be capable of getting good performances out of seemingly unsalvageable players, and I guess that’s the kind of ability we want to see from our incoming manager, whoever it may be.

 

[r1z3mu]

And then who else will sign for Utd?

Who else? How about people who dream about playing for MU? How about people who will leave 100% on the pitch. Am I the only one who sees this huge problem at MU?
Bruno came here not because we offered him 500K a week when we signed him.

 

[Glorio]

AWB is a weird one. I think the issue is his brain - he's not lazy or anything, he just doesn't concentrate or have an awareness of the goings on around him most of the time.

His footballing is called into question as well, but some does pull off some really eye catching moves to beat players when he's in the mood. His passing and crossing though are average at best.