Trying his very hardest to stay relevant
18
Season Average Rating
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Umm... 5 champions league titles, obviously?
He was b2b to be precise but he was very complete and could run the show at the back at times so thats why I put him there.
He could easily snatch up the ball in his own half and release it in the oppositions box, wonderful player.
I'm not privy to all general football discussions, but at least we know that football legends rate Scholes as one of the best midfielders of his generation, a generation that included giants like Zidane, Xavi, Viera, and others, Messi said once that Scholes' name was mentioned during his formative years with La Masia.
and one more thing, my perception of general football fans and casual watchers of football is that they will recognize FWs and AMs far more than other players like CMs or DMs, I'm not comparing here, but Zidane is far more recognizable globally to most football fans than someone like Keane or Xavi, my friends who watch football/PL casually, think Giggs is the best player ever to play for United in the 90s/early 00s, the younger ones associate United's success in late 00s with CR7, I spoke to a Dutch colleague at work who is in his mid 40s, he is PSV fan, but watches PL casually, he recognizes RVN as the best player at United during the 00s, and when I mentioned to him Keane or Scholes he would tell me Davids or Coco were better players, so for me I would take what other top footballers/coaches say about Scholes more seriously than what non United supporters or casual football fans say about Scholes.
A knockout competition at the end of the day. I'd take Keanes 7 Premier leagues over them, most of them as the team's captain and best player. Also teams win competitions, not players.
Roy Keane is rightly regarded as one of the best players to play in England over the past 3 decades. Casemiro is a fantastic midfielder but he'll be going some to be considered a better player than Keane.
Give your head a swivel.
How many deep midfielders can you name that we’ve had in the last 50 years? Being on a Short list doesn’t make everyone on it great. I mean two of the players on the list take up 50% of the last 50 years (Robson 81-94, Keane 93-05) then neither were actually DM until they adapted their games. Both these players were levels above Carrick, but apparently that makes him great because he’s on a list that contains them and few others?
Name them
Keane was magnificent and played in a fantastic team, Robson played in reasonably poor united teams, although some talented players the mentality of the club wasn’t right. Both of those two players were one of the major reasons and at times the major reason for any trophies won during their time at the club.
That Carricks best years came after the club stopped winning is purely an indicator that he played a bit part in success. He was never a key component or of the calibre of Keane and Robson.
Casemiro is for me in the ball park with regards to discussions with Keane and Robson, in terms of ability however at 30 he won’t have longevity. Hopefully we get enough peak years out of him for him to be part of success. If we were to get four good years out of him then they could be four great years.
Plenty rate Casemiro above Keane. It's not some crazy opinion. Waving off 5 CL's because it's a knockout competition is hilarious though, that's like waving off Pele's WC's because it's a knockout competition.
The only people who would take 7 PL's above 5 CL's are people who haven't won 5 CL's and are strongly defending their guy against logic
If you're expecting logic then the CAF is not for you!The only people who would take 7 PL's above 5 CL's are people who haven't won 5 CL's and are strongly defending their guy against logic
That sounds like a fun game. If you could start by posting a list of all our midfielders over that period and indicate which of them you don’t think are “deep” enough to qualify that would save me some time.
Sorry you’re the one who keeps going on about the last 50 years to quantify how good Carrick was. You brought up that he’s fourth on the list, so who is on your list then? Or have you just plucked that out of your ass!
Has anyone seen what cundy on talk sport said about him? Trying to insinuate that rice is better than Casemiro. Makes me question how these people are employed to give opinions on football.
Okay
Matic
Herrera
Schweinsteiger
Schneiderlin
Fletcher
Fortune
Johnsen
Butt
Ince
Blackmore
Webb
Phelan
Moses
Daly
McCreery
Crerand
PS As others who’ve played in that general position, I could have included McFred, Djemba-Djemba and OShea, no doubt others I’ve forgotten. I would say Wilkins but he was a favourite of mine and arguably better than Carrick.
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Scored a lot of goals as well....for club and country.
Muhren was decent.
None of them are what I would call a defensive minded midfielder, you need to all realize that until a few years ago most teams played 4-4-2 and there's not really a true defensive midfielder in that formation, Keane and Robson were box to box type players who could defend, Carrick wasn't box to box so more akin to a DM role in today's world
He was indeed!
Kleberson wasn't!
What do you mean by a few years ago? And box to box midfielders have only really been a standard thing in England.
We're talking about United players and an English team and the merits of DM or B2B, anywhere else has nothing to do with the discussion, until recently 4-4-2 was the standard formation of virtually all top level English sides, in such a formation a true DM was a rarity, TBH there aren't many true B2B guys anymore, 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 formations don't really need them
a 433 requires at least 1 to perform the function of a B2B, if not 2 , but I agree that a 4231 doesn't require a true B2B
But even in English Football and United box to box haven't been the standard. You basically have to go back to the 90s and even then you will have to take some liberties with the definition of box to box. If you take Keane as a point of reference during his prime while he was sometimes a box to box, he also played a similar role to Carricks when paired with Scholes and more attacking role when paired with Neville or Butt.
In fact one of the thing that fascinated me as a kid was that United were a very continental team compared to the rest of the 90s english teams and then in the 2000s, the difference wasn't that remarkable between continental and english teams outside of bottom PL and lower english leagues.
Sorry I must have been watching a different game to you in the 90's, United played most of the 90's (and the 80's for that matter) with a very English 4-4-2 usually with 2 wingers
Nobody is saying the Keane never played as a DM or a different role on ocasion but that wasn't his normal role, just like when Giggs played up front now and then
But it wasn't a rare occasion, it's not similar to Giggs player up front. For example would you suggest that the roles weren't clearly defined and changing depending on which pairing was in midfield? Scholes has never been a box tox box, Butt was a DM, as was Neville. Keane alterned frequently between roles and while he was complete and could everything, he wasn't doing everything all the time, his role was defined and based on his teammates own abilities. So it makes perfect sense for people to judge Keane's level as a DM since he played it a lot.
I didn't wave it off but a 38 game league campaign is a far better evaluation of a team than a 13 game knockout competition where 6 of the games are usually a formality.
And neither go anyway to comparing Roy Keane and Casemiro. Like I said Roy Keane is one of the best players in England of all time. Casemiro is a fantastic player but nobody talks about him in that way in Spain or anywhere else.
The plenty who rate Casemiro ahead of one of the best players to ever play in England need to give their heads a swivel.
It's a team sport and yes I would rather a Premier league over a 7 game knockout competition any year.The only people who would take 7 PL's above 5 CL's are people who haven't won 5 CL's and are strongly defending their guy against logic
You obviously don't have a clue how good a player Keane was and have resorted to a Chamions League over Premier league debate to win your argument. Pathetic
Casemiro has done it plenty a time for Madrid in a 38 league campaign.
The bolded is also irrelevant. If Roy Keane played in Spain and had the exact same career as he had at United he wouldn't be mentioned as one of the best players of all time in Spain either. In fact there's an argument that any of the top 10 midfielders in prem history wouldn't be in the top 10 midfielders in la liga history, let's be honest. Yaya Toure is widely regarded as a top 10 midfielder in prem history so is Fabregas, they won't get those shouts in Spain for their time at Barca.... Top 5 midfielders of my time all played in La Liga: Xavi, Iniesta, Zidane, Modric, Figo....
I’m inclined to agree.
Trophy counting is a bit of a red herring at the best of times but RM weren’t brilliant in La Liga during those years anyway so I wouldn’t be clinging to the “look what he’s won” argument.
It is no slight on Casemiro to suggest he is not quite as good as Keane. I think pretty much all of us are bloody delighted to have Casemiro and he probably has two more years before his body drags him down. They could be two incredible years for him, and few of us would be surprised if they were, based on what we’ve seen.
Above all, it feels positively bizarre to have a world class DM at last. So many of us have been saying for years that the whole team is unable to function properly without one and we are seeing what a huge difference it makes. I’m deliriously happy about it. We don’t have to exaggerate his level to enjoy him. He’s world class and we can leave it at that.
I think the Spanish would appreciate Keane as much as we do here.
Regarding Toure, he was exceptional at City for a decent spell and I have no doubt he would have been recognised as one of the top players of his era in Spain (had he spent those years there); and would have ranked above Casemiro (which is no slight on him).
Would not be considered one of the best players in La Liga history as he is the prem though...
Which is no slight on Keane btw or Casmeiro, it's just the competition they're up against are of a completely different level.
I think he would. If he played in Spain, it would have been at Barca or Madrid. Put Keane in either of those teams and they likely win multiple titles with him at the heart of the play as he was here. If you don’t think he was good enough to do that, then, sure, we’ll have to disagree; no problem.
PS Another way to look at it is to wonder if Casemiro can do enough in the next 3-4 years to convince that he could have been revered here in the way Keane was/is. Let’s hope so.
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It's actually a 13 game competition... And it's the most prestigious club competition. By a distance. United has 20 PL titles... And just 3 CL titles. It's obviously the hardest to win, it's the one all players want over everything, and it's the one that means the most. Yes the PL is a great league, but when it comes to success, there is no bigg club success than the Champions League. It's not arguable in the slightest.
Keane was a fantastic player. You don't have to tell me. I think Casemiro and him are very comparable players at their peaks. But Casemiro has simply been a more successful player, due to the CL wins. No player out there wouldn't be jealous of someone who has 5 CL titles.
Are you a Real Madrid fan? Nobody outside of United fans know how United fans talk about Roy Keane. PL fans of course know he was a world class player, but United fans of course put him on a pedestal. Madrid fans also put Casemiro on a pedestal as a great DM and the best in the world over the past 7 years or so. Just because you as a United fan don't hear the praise for Casemiro from Madrid supporters or elsewhere around the world, doesn't mean it isn't there.
I think they're very similar in ability and peak level. But in terms of career achievements, there is simply very little contest. Keane had a great career, but Casemiros achievements (and every key Madrid player the past 8 years) blow away almost any footballer throughout football history. And they achieved these things as key players because they were all pretty much all time great in their positions.
That’s a mediocre list to say the least. Quite a few of those weren’t DM but in any case Ince was immense. In a team that was full of winners he was the driving force from 92-95. He was way better than Carrick ever was for us. Crerand also from what I’ve heard was a proper cover for Charlton Best etc. Mosses was an animal for us too. I’d have Carrick around Fletcher and Butt. A lot of the others were only ever cover players and perhaps shouldn’t have played for a club the size of united anyway.
You're comparing individual players by what their respective teams achieved. It doesn't make much sense.
Just look at the two players and compare from there.
need another strong performance today against this wolves midfield.
In my opinion Carrick is at the head of that list, mediocre or not. You don’t rate him as highly; it’s all good.
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