Jones probably has passed more to our goalkeepers than Smalling, Bailly and Rojo combined
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 36
- Clean sheets
- 18
- Goals
- 2
- Assists
- 2
- Yellow cards
- 0
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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Maybe. His passing is better than Smalling though. Not a crime but that probably puts Smalling below the other 3 in terms of value to the team
Passing is not everything when it comes to centerbacks but our thinking has changed in recent years. His passing alone shouldn't reduce his value to the team, thats just an absurd claim. What about his other defensive attributes and strengths? Do you consider them?
Big fan of his, have been since his very first season here. Been goi through a rough spell of late though. At his best, he's our best defender, and in the top very few in the league. He's no Zidane as has been discussed to death, but he is virtually unbeatable on the deck or in the air when on his game.
He hasn't been as good since separated from Blind. Don't know why that is. I don't know if Jose will have the patience with him thoug. If he's sold, I would prefer him to go abroad, as he will fix defensive problems at most rivals. That said, his lack of technical skill will make him unattractive for top foreign sides I'd imagine.
He hasn't been as good since separated from Blind. Don't know why that is. I don't know if Jose will have the patience with him thoug. If he's sold, I would prefer him to go abroad, as he will fix defensive problems at most rivals. That said, his lack of technical skill will make him unattractive for top foreign sides I'd imagine.
He is good defensively as I have already mentioned in multiple threads but other 3 are also equally good or better at defending. So being comfortable on the ball is a bonus for others.
Game has developed in years. 20 years back you preferred a left footer in the left wing whereas today many teams play with inverted wingers so that wingers are supposed to cut in and score more than they used to years back. Touchline hugging wingers like Beckham ljungberg are a thing of the past now.
Its a bonus but its not an absolute necessity. For one Mourinho is not obsessed with ball playing defenders, he looks at other qualities and attributes first, going off his typical signings throughout his managerial history. The game has developed indeed from a tactical approach but my point stands.
Of course mourinho likes a person who is comfortable on the ball. He doesn't need someone like Pique or Boateng but someone who can play his way out of trouble.
I think defensively all 4 CBs of ours are more or less equal in terms of ability. Maybe Bailly could be slightly better than all 4. When all things remain equal we tend to go for the player that has an extra ability
Jose does like ball players. Ramos at RM, carvalho at Chelsea and RM, Terry to an extent at Chelsea etc. He also started with Blind at CB here and tried to buy stones at Chelsea. Not a necessity like pep or LvG but he does prefer it if available. Obviously as you say, his first requirement would be defending but he does like passing ability from his defenders.
I think we can both agree that Mourinho likes tall, physical, fast, powerful and aerially adept defensive players. Smalling ticks all these boxes, more than the others. Smallings pace and athleticism is maybe only matched by Bailly. His only weakness is in his passing. No one is better than Smalling in the air, thats an ability Jose values very much. Rojo is average in the air and Jones is good but not as good as Smalling. Smalling also has the others beat when it comes to chipping in goals. He's the only CB who has scored for us this season and he's in double figures (12) for United overall. Jones is at 5 and Rojo has one. While we're discussing extra abilities Smalling can also drive the ball out of the back better than Rojo and Jones can, he just lays the ball off to the closest midfielder after his runs when you expect him to make a key pass or do more. Its a symptom of his less than average passing ability but at least he can move it out very quickly and effectively.
I remember a Smalling MOTM performance in a CL game against Wolfsburg last season where he scored the winning goal and drove the ball forward out of defense countless times when Wolfsburg launched a siege on our goal in the closing minutes.
It was a one man commando show from him at the back and his last act before the whistle blew was driving the ball up past several players into midfield before being fouled just as the final whistle blew. He single handedly got United past the line. When he gets back to top form he'll be a fixture in the starting 11, but I think his last two performances with clean sheets will be good enough to see him keep his place against Liverpool and beyond
Because Blind was the leader in that defence, and the organiser. If Smalling left us he'd end up at someone like Everton or West Ham, no top team would take him.
Wenger is a known long time admirer of Smalling. United beat Arsenal to his signature (Fergie confirmed this in his book and said it was sweet revenge for Arsenal hijacking the Ramsey deal) and he tried to sign him again when LVG wanted Thomas Varmaelen. Liverpool would also bite our hands off for Smalling their defense is shite. Don't delude yourself
Daley Blind, the leader.
Absolute nonsense. On both counts.
Arsenal, for starters, would gladly have him off us, and have reportedly tried to buy him more than once. He's better than most centre halves at all the other big teams too.
No-one outside of United fans think this
Most English non United supporting fans don't rate any of our CBs except Bailly. The fans don't sign players though, managers do.
This is from when Wenger missed out on Smalling to United
Wenger recently confirmed his interest in signing the defender, but was left disappointed when he completed a move to Manchester United on Thursday afternoon.
"I am sorry because we were very close to getting him," said the manager "We were on the case very early.
Read more at http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-ar...y-to-have-missed-smalling#m6G4YuGvfIyDiyaU.99
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The importance of passing for a centre back has been wildly exaggerated on the forum of late for no other reason that to suit an anti-Smalling agenda. If they can get the ball safely to a midfielder that's really all they need to do. All of our CBs are reasonably ok in this regard. Smalling doesn't look as refined as some other players but his passing is generally fine for what he needs to do. It hasnt cost us any points.
His defending however has earned us a lot of points. You know, that thing centre backs need to actually excel at? The stuff that regularly effects the result of games. Stopping the other tesm from scoring. He does that stuff very fecking well.
His defending however has earned us a lot of points. You know, that thing centre backs need to actually excel at? The stuff that regularly effects the result of games. Stopping the other tesm from scoring. He does that stuff very fecking well.
Spot on. Thankfully Mourinho values defenders that can defend instead of the Fancy Dan claptrap you often read on here.
That's cause he's busy taking them.
You don't @Loublaze?
You claimed "Mourinho doesn't care about ball playing CBs", "look at his history"... well I'd say his history shows clearly that he in fact, does care about ball playing CBs.
That was years ago. Maybe Wenger thought he'd make a player of him.
What top side would Smalling get a game for?
If Smalling left - what top side would he get a game for?
No it doesn't, nowhere, nowhere near as much as it does for the likes of Pep who allowed 42M Mangala to leave on loan because he doesn't fit that system. Mourinho would've played Mangala. He bought Kurt Zouma who's another example of the typical type of centerback he goes for in the premier league like ive mentioned. Big, powerful, fast, athletic and most important to Mourinho, good in the air.
"If you don't have a minimum of five tall players good in the air, you are dead in set-pieces." -Mourinho in 2015 explaining why he'd continue to pick 6'1 Ivanovic at RB over 5'10 Baba Rahman (a club signing, not a Mourinho one) who is currently on loan to Schalke from Chelsea
http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2015/10/5/9453603/mourinho-ivanovic-baba-rahman
He has always seen height and aerial ability as his most important attributes in his central defenders and fullbacks as well. Hence why as ive mentioned before as well, he made Chelsea the tallest team in the PL over his two periods there
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Do you even read? Arsenal tried to sign him again when LVG inquired about Thomas Varmaelen in 2014. LVG was not going to sell Smalling to Arsenal in a swap deal
@Bwuk from August 2014
Barcelona are believed to have agreed a £15 million fee with Arsenal for Thomas Vermaelen, with the BBC reporting the defender could complete a move to the Nou Camp this weekend.
The development followed claims that Manchester United ended their pursuit of Vermaelen because Arsenal wanted Chris Smalling to join in exchange.
Arsene Wenger was said to be unlikely to let Vermaelen go to Old Trafford unless a United defender came the other way and Smalling was thought to be his first choice.
Arsenal tracked Smalling as a youngster and tried to sign him from Fulham before he joined United in January 2010.
http://en.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/330795.html
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/28728256
Barcelona are believed to have agreed a £15 million fee with Arsenal for Thomas Vermaelen, with the BBC reporting the defender could complete a move to the Nou Camp this weekend.
The development followed claims that Manchester United ended their pursuit of Vermaelen because Arsenal wanted Chris Smalling to join in exchange.
Arsene Wenger was said to be unlikely to let Vermaelen go to Old Trafford unless a United defender came the other way and Smalling was thought to be his first choice.
Arsenal tracked Smalling as a youngster and tried to sign him from Fulham before he joined United in January 2010.
http://en.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/330795.html
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/28728256
every side, he could make a great pairing with Kosc, that's also a reason why wenger wanted Smalling twice..
he's better than Cahill so I am sure he could easily slot in Chelsea side, not talking about D. Luiz, he's liability..
He could be a great partner to Alderweireled too or Vertonghen
would be by far the first cb in Liverpool side
and could be easily making a great pair with Kompany at city
I understand ppl like you don't like him for some reason, that he looks a bit clumsy and isn't as good on the ball but he's a great defender foremost and didn't even get a run under Mourinho who will certainly make him a better player like he can do with every defender..
To be fair, Wenger "was close to signing" every player that ends up at United.
He did get a run with bailley but got injured.
yeah so he's still waiting to get a decent run without injuries, they looked good together, we weren't playing bnever as good as we play now as a team too..
Smalling is beginning to play more games now, especially with rojo out. I think he'll easily displace Marcos as he did Blind.
Both Jones and rojo are very adept aerially. I don't think many forwards can beat them in the air. We played against Rondon lukaku benteke and all, some of the taller strikers, and they barely got a sniff at our goal. So I don't agree that they aren't good aerially.
Smalling was good last season first half but rojo and Jones have been equally good this season first half.
Smalling goes forward but does little with it. I don't think that's particularly an ability as he does nothing with it. Jones and Rojo pass it to players in better positions and create a flow. For a team that is more important than taking the ball forward and then making a pass that you could very well have made from your initial position.
Right now if Rojo is fit, I would start him over Smalling.
Short of us bringing in a superstar CB I think Jose will lean towards Smalling & Bailly as his first choice pairing, alla the fantastic Rio - Vidic combo.
Rojo & Jones as back-ups brings a depth most teams can't match.
There's no doubting Mourino's affinity for height and defending first and that's what the "Sm - aiily" combo has over the "Ro-Jones" partnership.
Rojo & Jones as back-ups brings a depth most teams can't match.
There's no doubting Mourino's affinity for height and defending first and that's what the "Sm - aiily" combo has over the "Ro-Jones" partnership.
I'm losing you here. Who said he cares as much as Pep?
He always gets a ball playing defender in his teams, whether he has to buy them or if they are already there. You're a bit fixated on height, which is definitely another attribute he definitely sees as essential. But to say "he doesn't care about ball playing CBs" is pure drivel.
They really aren't though, are they. Smalling is our best out and out defender. Bailly may be even more athletic, but still lacks aerial ability compared to Smalling, and Rojo and Jones still have a lot to prove if they want to be ranked ahead of Smalling.
How was Blind the leader? Blind spent a lot of his time all over the place with Smalling doing most of the headers, the running and the tackling. If Blind was the one who told him to do all that, then he is one helluva leader.
Chelsea would take him - better than Cahill. Arsenal would take him - City would definitely take him, and Liverpool would beg for him. Tottenham are probably the only club who don't need him as a direct upgrade.
How you can dislike a player you are supposed to support to such an extent that you show here is quite astonishing.
Im not saying they are not good. Im saying Smalling is way more dominant in this respect. Jones is good but not even close to Smalling, and Rojo is average. Funny you mention Rondon because in our game against WBA he caused problems for Jones and Rojo on two occasions. They both kept him in check for the most part and actually had him rattled but on the two occasions im referring to Rondon got free headers in the box when WBA went route one and they were both powerless to stop him. One of those chances had De Gea rooted to the spot and it would've meant a nervy finish to the game if he hit the target. Looking at their aerial duel stats, Smalling is way more superior to the rest of our central defenders. I posted this a page back but look at these stats from this season:
Jones: 9 games played, 810 minutes, 19 aerial duels won, 67.86% aerial duels won
Rojo: 12 games played, 966 minutes, 25 aerial duels won, 56.82% aerial duels won
Bailly: 12 games played, 925 minutes, 14 aerial duels won, 60.87%
Smalling: 10 games played, 560 minutes, 19 aerial duels won, 78.08%
For more context, look at these stats from 2014/15 when all three of them (Smalling, Jones and Rojo) enjoyed similar game time
Smalling played 25 games and Rojo and Jones both played 22 and the minutes they played was Smalling 1882, Rojo 1766 and Jones 1876. Smalling won 67 duels at 65.69%, Rojo 57 at 52.78% and Jones 46 at 59.74%.
So who is markedly more adept at winning aerial duels?
Im using Pep as an example of a manager who puts more value on ball playing CBs and absolutely has to have them in his side. Kurt Zouma is not a ball playing CB but Mourinho played him alongside Cahill who isn't exactly one either. Im not fixated on height, im merely pointing out how Mourinho actually is, those quotes about him wanting 5 tall players good in the air is more than enough to vindicate my assertion about him placing a higher emphasis on height and aerial prowess over everything else in his defenders. It was wrong of me to say he doesn't care about ball playing CBs, but he values height and aerial ability more and its clear to see
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Not really. Rojo was fairly good as a CB in his first season and has been good so far in his stint as a CB. Aerial ability sure but they are also better technically than Smalling. They are better at decision making as in deciding where to position yourselves. Which is why I say he isn't any better overall.
Didn't see the stats but that doesn't change what I've said. Both Jones and Rojo are inferior to Smalling but they too are decent to good in the air. Though yes Rojo s is much less than I thought.
Overall Jones and Rojo are just as good in defending. Their decision making is better than Smalling (stuff like which player to go with while defending and where to position yourself are areas Smalling is inferior to both Jones and Rojo).
Vardy said Smalling was the toughest defender he faced last season as he was so close to him and impossible to get away from. Welbeck said Smalling was the worst to play against because of his strength and his speed. Yet, you think Rojo and Jones have proven over time that they are better at things like positioning? Just look at the number of times Jones is sprinting at full speed or resorts to a sliding tackle compared to Smalling and you will see that is just not true. Like Rio, Smalling has great physical attributes, but he doesn't rely on them as much. I think Jones relies a little too much on his, and he isn't as physically gifted as Smalling either.
I agree that both are technically better, but there aren't many times I've seen Smalling give the ball away due to poor technique. He looks more clumsy than he is. Nor do I see them better at decision making.
Well I'm guessing you're very disappointed, no?
I expected him to be selected but no, im not. Mourinho is going with a partnership that has done well during this run. Rojo had a much better game than Jones who looks vulnerable when pressed. He failed to handle a routine ball and it led to the corner that subsequently led to Pogba's handball. Its happened before with Jones. I still see Smalling as the better defender.
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