Club Sale | It’s done!

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The people he has put in place also don’t know football by all accounts
Yep. Definitely a concern. The resources, pull, and structure of United is a different stratosphere to OGC Nice so you'd imagine (hope) the approach would also be completely different. But there's obviously no guarantee. Just as there's no guarantee someone with zero track record in football will know what they are doing. It's extremely worrying to me that Nasser of PSG is involved with Jassim's bid. Resembling anything like PSG would be a new low for me, far beyond not properly competing for titles and consistently getting new recruits wrong.
 
The idea that someone who is concerned about well documented issues is basing it on some degree of racism is pretty insulting Sultan.

It's a really dangerous way of shutting discussion down.

Equally worrying is a dismissal of what goes on as "unscrupulous".

If you're OK with it then so be it. Don't try and pretend it's not happening or that anyone who isn't has ulterior motives based on zero evidence.

On your dismissal of the use of the word slavery. A quote from Anti-Slavery International.


“The evidence uncovered by the Guardian is clear proof of the use of systematic forced labour in Qatar,” said Aidan McQuade, director of Anti-Slavery International, which was founded in 1839. “In fact, these working conditions and the astonishing number of deaths of vulnerable workers go beyond forced labour to the slavery of old where human beings were treated as objects. There is no longer a risk that the World Cup might be built on forced labour. It is already happening.”

And in case you think is not widespread.


"Qatar has the highest ratio of migrant workers to domestic population in the world: more than 90% of the workforce are immigrants and the country is expected to recruit up to 1.5 million more labourers to build the stadiums, roads, ports and hotels needed for the tournament. Nepalese account for about 40% of migrant labourers in Qatar. More than 100,000 Nepalese left for the emirate last year.
The murky system of recruitment brokers in Asia and labour contractors in Qatar leaves them vulnerable to exploitation. The supreme committee has insisted that decent labour standards will be set for all World Cup contracts, but underneath it a complex web of project managers, construction firms and labour suppliers, employment contractors and recruitment agents operate."

And your defence is Qatar doesn't force inward migration?

The structure in Qatar means that a lot of wealth is tied to the autocratic regime, that's not tar and brush, it's the socio political structure of the country. As the articled posted by 2cents says, this socio political structure is almost indistinguishable from the economic structure.

Yes we have racists in the world but let's not resort to 'tar and brush' when people have legitimate concerns.

If it turns out our buyers are with us on these many concerns then great. That will be a huge relief for me personally.

Seems disingenuous to me to be posting quotes from 10 year old articles without links - you well know that lots has changed for the better since then as we discussed it to death during the World Cup

Things will continue to improve for workers in Qatar over time as they are still a developing country, but one thing is absolutely clear to me - who ends up owning Manchester United Football Club will have virtually no impact on the workers rights situation in Qatar either way so I personally don't understand what it even has to do with this thread.
In fact there is a good argument that a Qatari taking over United can only be good for shining a spotlight on such issues.
 
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Is it typical for owners to 'know' football? Aren't most fans just hoping they hire the right people in the right places and don't strip the club of it's assets? Also random to include allegations levied at the manager as if that has much to do with Ratcliffe.
It depends if Ratcliffe knew about the racism taking place. It's the same Ratcliffe who hired a racist/homophobe to oversee the summer transfer window of 2022 in the form of Iain Moody who was sacked from his previous job for being a racist.

 
Seems disingenuous to me to be posting quotes from 10 year old articles without links - you well know that's lots has changed for the better since then as we discussed it to death during the World Cup

Things will continue to improve for workers in Qatar over time as they are still a developing country, but one thing is absolutely clear to me - who ends up owning Manchester United Football Club will have virtually no impact on the workers rights situation in Qatar either way so I personally don't understand what it even has to do with this thread.
In fact there is a good argument that a Qatari taking over United can only be good for shining a spotlight on such issues.

It said in the quote it was from the Guardian, and I stated who made the statement. The age was to show it's not knee jerk and shilling for Ineos. It's disingenuous to imply it wasn't genuine.

Just to put your selectively scruitinous mind at rest.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars-world-cup-slaves

Have you got links to the lots that has changed?

Personally I fundamentally disagree that the expansion of influence of undemocratic states is a good thing. In my opinion it normslises authoritarianism much more than it helps the oppressed therein.
 
Discussing PSG, City, and human rights violations is most likely to throw mud at Jassim because he is a Qatari and being born in that country it is assumed he is guilty by association. Please don't think I am accusing anyone of bigotry or casual racism. I have no idea what people hold in their hearts. I would not stoop that low. I will stand on a platform and shout with you all if Jassim turns out to be a cheat or has any connections in policymaking in Qatar. Let us wait and see what happens and see how the next few years progress prior to sending an advance guilty verdict.

The spotlight on the club is going to be huge from many angles is the very reason why I am against a Qatari winning the bidding

You're never going to get the transparency from Qatar/Jassim that would offer up the evidence you need. Their political structure doesn't do accountability, it doesn't need to, that's the point of it.

So saying let's wait and see is a bit of kick the can down the road. You'll never get to see. Not in terms of real evidence anyway.
 
If SJR were a true United supporter he would witdraw his bid now (if he feels he can´t compete) cuz he is just fecking everything up right now. Draging it and destroying this summer transfer window.
 

You’ve got to respect Adam Crafton’s objectivity as a journalist. It would have been very easy for him to just be going at Qatar and give their rivals a free pass.
 
Is it typical for owners to 'know' football? Aren't most fans just hoping they hire the right people in the right places and don't strip the club of it's assets? Also random to include allegations levied at the manager as if that has much to do with Ratcliffe.

Well the club didn't get rid of him and covered it up, so it has everything to do with the leadership/ownership
 
There are some nice articles; I have several issues with making any conclusion that SJ's bid is formed within the frame of any of those quotes.

1) the definition of Al Thani family is vague, and so is royal family. If anything, HBJ was removed from positions by the current Emir, and SJ has a legacy benefits e.g. QIB Chair. Given the size of the Al Thani house, it's not a stretch to seek clarification since the implication in the quotes is that distance from the Emir is important, of which the HBJ branch seems out of favour/distant.

2) at no point did any of the academics say that "distinction between public and private spheres in the Qatari economy is extremely blurred to the point of being meaningless", they said it's problematic. Nor should that imply it's all businesses and all purchases of business, but it's framed within 1) which isn't clear.

3) this notion that the Emir has ultimate power and is top down, from my academic reading, is, in part, false. Who decides who is Emir, who decides when to remove the Emir? It is my understanding the Emir is voted in by the Al Thani house. Please note, I say the Al Thani house rather than Al Thani family. The Emir is voted out by the Al Thani house. That begs the question how does the Emir have top down power? Given that Qatar has a history of non-violent coups, eg voted Emirs out. It implies that real power is created by keeping a big enough proportion of the Al Thani house happy. In other words, what positions does HBJ hold/have since the new Emir gained power?

4) We're uncertain whether the HBJ branch of the Al Thani house is within the Emirs thinking, or whether that branch is framed with Al Thani family/royal family. So that begs a question; why would SJ want United? I have to question whether this is about power within the Al Thani house, it cannot be HBJ who is fronting the puchase because he seems out of favour/lost face. If that branch doesn't try to increase power would they move further from the centre of power within Qatar/ therefore making it more difficult for them in Qatar? And Why are they buying/investing outside of Qatar? Is it lack of recognition/power inside of Qatar?

I don't have the ultimate answer, i'm not making the leap that SJ's bid is a Qatar bid for those reasons and nor does the literature imply it is a Qatar backed bid.
With regard to the last point, SJ’s father has already done massive investments in UK, he is known as ‘the man who owns half of London’ owning among others the Harrods.

However, the United purchase seems to be too big for him too. Even if some unofficial estimates of his wealth are true, putting him at 20B net worth, spending one third of it in a club seems not very logical (bear in mind that most of the wealth is in assets, not cash). Especially with him saying before that he is not a fan of football (albeit he green lighted the purchase of PSG).

I think most likely is a Qatari consortium with some unofficial heavy backing from the state.
 
Plus publications like that don’t rush out to corroborate. They either have the source or they don’t.
When the FT broke the news about 6 siblings being offered to stay and the penny starting to drop I didn’t see Reuters etc rush out to corroborate or call the story out. That’s because they aren’t gossiping football journalists who want to be ahead of every story and that’s not how they operate. Plus those very same posters who argue for corroboration didn’t seem so keen to go down that road when that story broke.
I wonder why?
Pretending otherwise is disingenuous at best
Even I can sense a bit of disingenuity amongst some of the staunch anti Qatar posters where they are ready to Dismiss even Reuters as a credible source .

Though I am also bit confused with Reuters now they have put out a Video in which they are claiming Exclusivity has been granted to Qatari's at the very begining of the Video , but Headline states that they are still in the process of negotiations for it
 
You don't think Qatar and such are under more scrutiny due to the WC and their sport purchases?
I think alot more people have a greater insight as to what goes on there than before all the sportswashing started.

Yeah, Qatar's atrocious reputation is only because people are reporting on it more now.

They're being focused on more than Ineos because what they do is a million times worse.
 
No one spends 600m in a season because it's very risky, Chelsea has committed to 8-9 years contracts to amortised the cost of those transfers, so they are hamstrung as to what they can spend in future windows without generating funds from selling off the bloats.

There's nothing that stop other clubs with similar revenue from employing the same strategy Chelsea did, clubs just don't tend to bet their squad health and finances on a couple of windows, if they don't pan out the way you want then you are fecked for 4,5,6 years with little ability to turn over that squad, and that's eons in football.
Their sake agreement also has the commitment to spend something like 1bn right?
 
Reuters now have a video up.



They mention Qatar several times and only mention Jassim while showing video footage of the Emir of Qatar.

Reuters certainly don't seem to think this is a private bid.
 
They mention Qatar several times and only mention Jassim while showing video footage of the Emir of Qatar.

Reuters certainly don't seem to think this is a private bid.
RMC in France have corroborated the information from Reuters.



 
They mention Qatar several times and only mention Jassim while showing video footage of the Emir of Qatar.

Reuters certainly don't seem to think this is a private bid.

They've created enough doubt which was probably their plan.
 
The Athletic have a good piece on SJR and his Nice ownership, where the coach is accused of racism being investigated by police, the fans say he knows nothing about football.

It shows what kind of owner he is, when players also come out and say they have no direction..

Reminds me alof of.. the Glazers.

None of SJR sporting ventures have been successful.
 
Reuters now have a video up.



This is a lot more reliable than any of the football journos. Reuters is not in the business of clickbait or plain old making things up for attention. If they're reporting it they will have good sources telling them this, either from the commercial arm of the club or more likely the advisors.
 
the question is, if it is a state bid then why hide it?

I'm not 100% sure there is a conscious effort to "hide it", as I'm doubtful that the distinction between a "state bid" and a "private bid" is relevant or meaningful in the minds of those involved. But even if there is, the reasons could relate to basically unknowable factors relating to the internal dynamics of the al-Thanis - shifting alliances, the granting of favors, etc.
There are some nice articles; I have several issues with making any conclusion that SJ's bid is formed within the frame of any of those quotes.

1) the definition of Al Thani family is vague, and so is royal family. If anything, HBJ was removed from positions by the current Emir, and SJ has a legacy benefits e.g. QIB Chair. Given the size of the Al Thani house, it's not a stretch to seek clarification since the implication in the quotes is that distance from the Emir is important, of which the HBJ branch seems out of favour/distant.

2) at no point did any of the academics say that "distinction between public and private spheres in the Qatari economy is extremely blurred to the point of being meaningless", they said it's problematic. Nor should that imply it's all businesses and all purchases of business, but it's framed within 1) which isn't clear.

3) this notion that the Emir has ultimate power and is top down, from my academic reading, is, in part, false. Who decides who is Emir, who decides when to remove the Emir? It is my understanding the Emir is voted in by the Al Thani house. Please note, I say the Al Thani house rather than Al Thani family. The Emir is voted out by the Al Thani house. That begs the question how does the Emir have top down power? Given that Qatar has a history of non-violent coups, eg voted Emirs out. It implies that real power is created by keeping a big enough proportion of the Al Thani house happy. In other words, what positions does HBJ hold/have since the new Emir gained power?

4) We're uncertain whether the HBJ branch of the Al Thani house is within the Emirs thinking, or whether that branch is framed with Al Thani family/royal family. So that begs a question; why would SJ want United? I have to question whether this is about power within the Al Thani house, it cannot be HBJ who is fronting the puchase because he seems out of favour/lost face. If that branch doesn't try to increase power would they move further from the centre of power within Qatar/ therefore making it more difficult for them in Qatar? And Why are they buying/investing outside of Qatar? Is it lack of recognition/power inside of Qatar?

In regards to 2, the first article claims there is "no real separation" between state and private interests, and that "there is no meaningful distinction, either political or legal" between the Emir and the state. The second notes "the lack of clear boundaries" between the private and public sectors, describing the lines between the wealth of ruling families and the state as "murky". The third describes the public-private distinction as "problematic" and the distinction between public and private funds as "meaningless." The fourth notes how economic and political elites are often "indistinguishable". The fifth describes the distinction between rulers' wealth and state wealth as "artificial." A sixth article I posted here states that the "dichotomy between “state” and “business” is not strictly accurate" and argues that the private sector is basically subservient to the state."

Considering these collectively, I don't think my characterization is unfair or misleading, but if you absolutely insist on just "problematic" I won't quibble.

In regards to point 3, it is true that factionalism has traditionally been a marked feature of internal al-Thani dynamics, and that the previous lack of any clear legal means by which to select a successor has stoked this factionalism and led to coups and shifts at the very top in the past. However, the current Emir's father Hamad introduced a new constitution in 2005, article 9 of which states "The Emir shall, by an Emiri Order, appoint an Heir Apparent after consultation with the members of the Ruling Family and the people of wisdom (Ahal Alhal wal agd) in the State." This is how Tamim came into power.

According to this book, "The Emir can approve or disapprove of any project – the state coffers and the Qatar National Bank are in theory separate from the Emir, but in actuality he can direct Qatar’s enormous gas and oil revenue if he wishes...Institutionally, economically and legally, the Emir seems to have effective, absolute power....the Emir will only increase and centralize his authority, using the rhetoric of liberalization only to shore up his power. Much reform has been about centralizing the power of the Emir, not limiting it."

However, it seems correct to say that the Emir must rule more as a first among equals than a despot, and that there are non-institutionalized limits on his authority brought about by the need to develop and maintain factional alliances within the broader family and beyond. A major means of doing so, it seems, is by the distribution of state resources and institutions to favored factions among the al-Thanis and other leading tribal and merchant families. The book states "the power of the Emir is circumscribed in subtle ways, not by international threats but by internal political arrangements of a highly local, informal and tribal nature that is hard for Western political scientists trained in formal institutional politics and economics to understand or quantify."

As implied in your points 1 and 4, we don't appear to have any reliable information regarding the current status of Jassim and his father within this ruling system, so I'll refrain from further speculation on that topic until a clearer picture emerges one way or another.
 
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This is a lot more reliable than any of the football journos. Reuters is not in the business of clickbait or plain old making things up for attention. If they're reporting it they will have good sources telling them this, either from the commercial arm of the club or more likely the advisors.


Quite true. Although, you don't need to bring in the Reuters comparison to know you cannot take seriously the journos that tweet along the lines of "BREAKING: WE HAVE NO NEWS AS OF YET".
 
RMC in France have corroborated the information from Reuters.





According to RMCsport, the Glazers and Sheikh Jassim camp are now negotiating the parameter of the exclusivity and an announcement will come if/when they are set.
 
The UK based sports journalists have been desperate to 'either side' this story like they do with transfers they have no real inside information on but want to report on every few days because of column inches they need to fill or Twitter interactions they need to drive up

"Bid preferred but might not be"

"Considered favourites, but that may change"

"Glazers looking to stay.... or leave"

"Bid of around $6bn... but maybe less"

Essentially an American Reuters journalist has got some actual inside information about the Qatari's pressing the Glazers for a period of exclusivity - presumably because they feel negotiations are advanced enough for that to be granted - and the UK based football hacks are pissed because it shows them up.

"Well my sources haven't said that" when their 'sources' have fed them "These things may happen or may not" nonsense stories for months.

The difference we see here is what happens when a real reporter had information and when dozens of reporters are under pressure for months to appear like they do.
Reminds me of the Covid advice during lockdown!

Stay at home…don’t stay at home…only if you need to…stay at home
 
Rio was right :lol:
Fans just blindly shouting him down and getting their blood up was quite a show yesterday. Shooting down 2/3 other pieces of news that came along yesterday really just because they set their “everybody who believed that is a muppet” stance shone a light on some of the so called sensible posters on here.
I’m saying that as someone who wants Qatar to win but immediately sell to someone else right away.
Hopefully we all have level heads today
 
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