[Big Ben Foster]

I'm quite sure at this point it's not even choice of pass in case of de Gea. He's not really passing it long, he's just "clearing it out of trouble".

But then the opposition gets the ball back and it goes right back into trouble

 

[VivaObertan]

Proud of him for diving to his left

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Well that shows that DDG isn’t what we require if it has evolved. I watched Steele and he was woeful, the Sunderland documentary on Netflix also highlighted how bad he was. Now we look on in envy at the guy

If we have Steele and performed exactly the same last night, while Brighton have DDG performed exactly the same last night, we would have more possession which lead us to very likely not losing the game.

 

[Red in STL]

If we have Steele and performed exactly the same last night, while Brighton have DDG performed exactly the same last night, we would have more possession which lead us to very likely not losing the game.

Possession wins you nothing, it's what you do with it and that's the bit we're not so good at

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Possession wins you nothing, it's what you do with it and that's the bit we're not so good at

I never say winning possession would win us the game yesterday, I said very likely we wouldn’t lose the game.

 

[Red in STL]

I never say winning possession would win us the game yesterday, I said very likely we wouldn’t lose the game.

Ok fair enough, but IMO more possession didn't make it more likely we'd lose the game, we lost because Shaw fecked up, it's also worth noting that Brighton have the 2highest possession rate in the PL after City so the 6-40 split was actually about par for them

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Ok fair enough, but IMO more possession didn't make it more likely we'd lose the game, we lost because Shaw fecked up, it's also worth noting that Brighton have the 2highest possession rate in the PL after City so the 6-40 split was actually about par for them

If we can keep possession, it reduces the probability of conceded corner or conceded chances, which lead to less likely that corner or free kick in dangerous area that caused the handball to happen. By not able to keep possession we are inviting those chances to happen.

 

[RVN1991]

If we can keep possession, it reduces the probability of conceded corner or conceded chances, which lead to less likely that corner or free kick in dangerous area that caused the handball to happen. By not able to keep possession we are inviting those chances to happen.

De Gea did have some saves to keep the score leveled before the PK but I forgot literally every save he's ever made is routine and any pub league keeper could make them so it's a moot point.

 

[Sylar]

De Gea did have some saves to keep the score leveled before the PK but I forgot literally every save he's ever made is routine and any pub league keeper could make them so it's a moot point.

Ddg makes good stops.
But likewise, nobody has brought up "pub league keepers" except people being ridiculous in their attempts to defend him as they can't say anything else of note.

With that said, Which saves of his were saves other keepers can't make?

 

[Longshanks]

Possession wins you nothing, it's what you do with it and that's the bit we're not so good at

Yep and in particular it's what our current GK chooses to do with possession that is one of our biggest issues.

 

[dpansheth]

his weight on passes is highly questionable. I have not seen any improvements from him on this from few seasons now.
I am not comfortable him being a GK given how football has evolved in last few years.

 

[Leftback99]

He hoofed everything long 2nd half and we lost any control whatsoever. How are people still not seeing this.

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It's like he's actively trying to play it to opposition players, half of them are nowhere near a red shirt.

 

[Red in STL]

Yep and in particular it's what our current GK chooses to do with possession that is one of our biggest issues.

Ain't just our GK though is it, he may be part of the problem but he's not the only one, half the players in front of him gave it away even more

 

[NLunited]

In the last two games DeGea has been decent. If he had played like Martinez in the Villa game, the haters would have been all over it. Martinez misplaced the ball a lot and DeGea would have been blamed for letting in the goal the way Martinez did.

Against Brighton he had a lot of good saves. Apart from one or two shaky moments his distribution was good.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Possession wins you nothing, it's what you do with it and that's the bit we're not so good at

I'm sorry but that's absolutely nonsensical rubbish.

If you have the ball more often than your opponent without misplacing your passes, you will definitely win more games. What you said is a bit like "it doesn't matter if you have 50% of your passes misplaced" when of course it fecking does, because you'll never keep the ball long enough to have shots on goal and ergo score goals.

You have to imagine that if your goalkeeper misplaces a pass too it's likely to be incredibly dangerous given the part of the pitch he plays in, unless they regularly hoof the ball up the field which anyone that watches us knows we don't.

 

[NLunited]

I'm sorry but that's absolutely nonsensical rubbish.

If you have the ball more often than your opponent without misplacing your passes, you will definitely win more games. What you said is a bit like "it doesn't matter if you have 50% of your passes misplaced" when of course it fecking does, because you'll never keep the ball long enough to have shots on goal and ergo score goals.

You have to imagine that if your goalkeeper misplaces a pass too it's likely to be incredibly dangerous given the part of the pitch he plays in, unless they regularly hoof the ball up the field which anyone that watches us knows we don't.

No the amount of possession really doesn‘t matter. What you do when you have the ball does.

 

[JB7]

In the last two games DeGea has been decent. If he had played like Martinez in the Villa game, the haters would have been all over it. Martinez misplaced the ball a lot and DeGea would have been blamed for letting in the goal the way Martinez did.

Well nobody seems to rate Martinez either so weird comparison to make.

 

[Lay]

This guy is behind Barcelona B’s goalkeeper for Spain yet there’s still a few posters who think he isn’t a problem here.

 

[MadDogg]

No the amount of possession really doesn‘t matter. What you do when you have the ball does.

Of course it matters. Possession for it's own sake isn't particularly effective, but it's certainly important. Put equally dangerous attacks in two teams that get a 60/40 possession split, and which one do you think will score more often over the course of a season? Likewise, put defences of equal quality in those two teams and which do you think will concede less?

 

[Mindhunter]

I feel this is a pointless debate. Do we need an upgrade? Most definitely yes. Do we have the money for one? No.

Let’s just settle in and be ready for another season of hoofball.

 

[MackRobinson]

No the amount of possession really doesn‘t matter. What you do when you have the ball does.

This is really a tired old football cliche not based on any real evidence. In the most extreme example, albeit improbable, if a team has 100% possession, at worst, they earn a draw.

Even excluding that, studies have shown that the more possession a team has, the more likely they are to win.

In general, teams with more ball possession won more matches in the competition, and this was especially true when the range of ball possession percentage between two teams in a match was higher

https://www.researchgate.net/public...on_and_match_outcome_in_UEFA_Champions_League

Possession is not the end all be all, but it certainly matters.

 

[kouroux]

his weight on passes is highly questionable. I have not seen any improvements from him on this from few seasons now.
I am not comfortable him being a GK given how football has evolved in last few years.

I'd say I've seen an improvement but the starting point and the current level are so bad that it makes it pointless to note it

 

[RedIan]

Im still a fan of Degea and he deserves far more respect. Hes been with us since 2011 and made many hundreds of amazing shot stops. Hes saved us countless points every season including this. He has the most clean sheets in the PL this season with 23.
His passing out isnt the best and hes cost us a couple of goals but hes saved us far more.

 

[arnie_ni]

I feel this is a pointless debate. Do we need an upgrade? Most definitely yes. Do we have the money for one? No.

Let’s just settle in and be ready for another season of hoofball.

Winner winner

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

Im still a fan of Degea and he deserves far more respect. Hes been with us since 2011 and made many hundreds of amazing shot stops. Hes saved us countless points every season including this. He has the most clean sheets in the PL this season with 23.
His passing out isnt the best and hes cost us a couple of goals but hes saved us far more.

What top team would take 2019-2023 De Gea as their number 1?

PSG? No
Arsenal? No
Madrid? No
Barca? No
City? No
AC? No
Inter? No
Atletico? No
Liverpool? No
Napoli? Meret isn’t amazing but he’s better than De Gea, so no.

If De Gea left tomorrow he wouldn’t be a starting keeper for a top side. He shouldn’t be for us then.

 

[Abraxas]

Im still a fan of Degea and he deserves far more respect. Hes been with us since 2011 and made many hundreds of amazing shot stops. Hes saved us countless points every season including this. He has the most clean sheets in the PL this season with 23.
His passing out isnt the best and hes cost us a couple of goals but hes saved us far more.

The problem is this idea he saves us "far more than he costs us" with his poor passing and command of his box isn't borne out statistically over recent seasons. It's only something based on the gut feeling of fans that see some nice saves, the data is telling us it really isn't a justifiable trade off compared to his goalkeeping rivals, which is the key point.

Probably because the seemingly amazing shot stops are sometimes just a keeper doing his job, to use Roy Keane parlance. If everyone is doing that but then they're also more valuable commodities in terms of gaining points because they contribute in the build up and dominate set pieces, then it's easy to see why DDG might have fallen behind over the years.

 

[Longshanks]

Ain't just our GK though is it, he may be part of the problem but he's not the only one, half the players in front of him gave it away even more

The issue isn't giving the ball away, the issue is De Gea choosing to launch it far too often. We have to play out if we have any dreams or aspirations of winning leagues and champions leagues.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

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That’s equivalent to 20x turn-over by single player. He really did us dirty with that amount. The worst in our XI as he gave the ball away the most.

 

[Idxomer]

The issue isn't giving the ball away, the issue is De Gea choosing to launch it far too often. We have to play out if we have any dreams or aspirations of winning leagues and champions leagues.

Another problem is that even his completed passes aren't incisive and they're usually short. They also don't help the player who receives it progress the ball.

 

[Longshanks]

Another problem is that even his completed passes aren't incisive and they're usually short. They also don't help the player who receives it progress the ball.

Yes he is the master of unhitting a very simple pass, or somehow regularly sending behind the receiver forcing them to turn into danger or go backwards. I can't fathom how a pro footballer playing at the top can't make simple passes. GK or no GK.

It all comes back to the same flaw, his complete lack of Bravery. To play out you have it be brave you have to be willing to take risks and you have to be commited at it. He's not brave he is not willing to take risks, I can't help but feel he deliberately makes duff passes because he really isn't comfortable playing out and dosent want to commit to it.

By launching it he is basically absolving himself of blame in the eyes of many and himself. It because we lose the duels and the second balls rather than it being because De Gea hit it long. But if he plays a bad short pass out that gets put on him and he isn't willing to accept that responsibility. So he launches it.

 

[NLunited]

This is really a tired old football cliche not based on any real evidence. In the most extreme example, albeit improbable, if a team has 100% possession, at worst, they earn a draw.

Even excluding that, studies have shown that the more possession a team has, the more likely they are to win.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...on_and_match_outcome_in_UEFA_Champions_League

Possession is not the end all be all, but it certainly matters.

Not really. The reasons that possession doesn‘t really matter are as follows:

-Good teams are more likely to win and are more likely to control possession. That does not mean more possession wins you more games statistically.
-A team that focuses on one plan to win a game will be vulnerable to exploitation. A team that tries to control possession regardless of the opponent is not maximizing their potential.
-Using possession as a tool to achieve certain advantages is good. If no advantages are achieved, striving for possession is counter productive.
-Sometimes ceding possession is the best way to gain advantages over the course of a game.

To study the issue with statistics you would have to eliminate many factors which is nigh impossible.

Think about it this way: a team that is athletic but not so good technically would gain nothing by trying to control possession.

We have seen numerous times this season, that we achieved superiority over the opponent without having much possession. In the end, the amount of good chances created matters.

To get back to De Gea: at this point in our development, replacing him is not the biggest priority.

 

[NLunited]

Of course it matters. Possession for it's own sake isn't particularly effective, but it's certainly important. Put equally dangerous attacks in two teams that get a 60/40 possession split, and which one do you think will score more often over the course of a season? Likewise, put defences of equal quality in those two teams and which do you think will concede less?

That is not how it works. It depends on which tactics will get you the most opportunities against the opponent and tactics you are facing. In your example, you assume both teams are trying to control possession.

Possession alone means nothing. The faster you get the ball forward, the less time the opponent has to organize themselves. Looking at an opponent, you may decide you want to cede possession to them.

Not because you are scared of them, but because it will get you more dangerous attacks and a bigger chance to win the game.

I‘m a big proponent of possession based football, Ajax and used to like Barça, but your argument is nonsense.

 

[MackRobinson]

Not really. The reasons that possession doesn‘t really matter are as follows:

-Good teams are more likely to win and are more likely to control possession. That does not mean more possession wins you more games statistically.
-A team that focuses on one plan to win a game will be vulnerable to exploitation. A team that tries to control possession regardless of the opponent is not maximizing their potential.
-Using possession as a tool to achieve certain advantages is good. If no advantages are achieved, striving for possession is counter productive.
-Sometimes ceding possession is the best way to gain advantages over the course of a game.

To study the issue with statistics you would have to eliminate many factors which is nigh impossible.

Think about it this way: a team that is athletic but not so good technically would gain nothing by trying to control possession.

We have seen numerous times this season, that we achieved superiority over the opponent without having much possession. In the end, the amount of good chances created matters.

To get back to De Gea: at this point in our development, replacing him is not the biggest priority.

You are speaking in hypotheticals and outliers. Nobody said possession always matters or it always determines the winner and loser. Possession does matter on average, if not show me empirical evidence that it doesn’t. If you choose to stick your head in the sand that’s on you but you are dead wrong.

 

[NLunited]

You are speaking in hypotheticals and outliers. Nobody said possession always matters or it always determines the winner and loser. Possession does matter on average, if not show me empirical evidence that it doesn’t. If you choose to stick your head in the sand that’s on you but you are dead wrong.

Posters above are saying possession stats matter in evaluating which team played a better game, I say they don‘t. Whoever creates the best chances is playing the better game. We had tons of games like that this season.

Ten Hag is often not prioritizing possession right now, but chooses tactics that will most probably win us the game. Against Brighton in the first half we had the best opportunities, but less possession. That was deliberate.

Yet some are counting lower possession stats against us in evaluating our performances, even if we created better chances. That is bollocks.

Saying ‚possession does matter on average‘ makes no sense. It does not matter on its own. You could say ‚pressing matters on average‘. No it fecking doesn‘t make sense.

If you control possession but create less chances than the opponent, you aren‘t controlling the game.

Possession is a tool for a team, not a measure by which you determine which team is playing better.

 

[kundalini]

De Gea's save percentage is currently 69.8% in the PL. That ranks 10th compared to other teams. Newcastle top 77.3%, Fulham and Brentford also above 75%, Southampton and Leeds below 60%.

For Post Shot Expected Goals, De Gea is 11th compared to other teams, on -1.4 so he has conceded just over one goal more than you'd expect given the shots against that were on target. Southampton and Leeds have had terrible seasons in this respect, -16.9 and -12.4. Liverpool and Fulham top on + 9.3 and + 8.4.

Percentage of crosses stopped United (De Gea) are 20th. Sweeper keeper actions 16th.

We can buy a superior keeper that suits our current defence for under £25m.

 

[Adnan]

Proactive teams who look to exert zonal and positional control with the aim/emphasis of playing the game in a vertical axis, will by default have more possession. The aim isn't to control possession but rather to dominate zones and spaces with and without the ball. And the best teams in the EPL are those teams with a strong build up phase, which starts from their keepers and allows their midfielders and attackers to flourish, even against teams who are adept at pressing high. And those teams average a high percentage of possession by default due to their proactive approach to playing the game.

We could've won the game against Brighton, but it wouldn't solve the structural problems we see in the build up phase against any team that is technically strong in possession and presses high as a collective unit. And not solving the clear weaknesses in the build up phase won't ever allow us to catch the likes of City and Arsenal currently, who have implemented into their teams a clear identity over the span of several years.

We need a striker but without having a strong build up phase, we won't challenge the current bench mark in the EPL and neither will ten Hag implement his methods, which involves playing through the press. But if we do manage to add three technically strong players and those players are a upgrade on the GK, RB and CM positions, we will look a very different proposition. The rest of the league games won't be easy but I don't see a remaining fixture that will pose a high pressing or first phase build up threat to us like some of the teams we've already faced. We should have more space to bring the ball out of defence in the remaining league fixtures.

And the following quotes are from De Zerbi and Luis Enrique, which are absolutely spot on imo. And the quicker ten Hag brings that idea to fruition, the quicker we'll develop as a proactive attacking unit.




Luis Enrique: “I look to have three starting goalkeepers and I think that right now I have them. Honestly. I wouldn’t have an issue with any of the three of them starting," he said."


"Luis Enrique went on to stress the importance of having a keeper that commands his penalty area and has excellent distribution skills to kick start attacks - two areas in which it has been suggested De Gea can be found lacking.


Luis Enrique: “Unai has accumulated some interesting experience. A goalkeeper should start the play and generate the first superiority, they must dominate the aerial play," the 52-year-old added."


Brighton manager De Zerbi:

"In my opinion, kicking the ball long and trying to win the second ball is a bet. Since I don't like betting I would rather train my team to play out from the back because that is not betting, that is 'working'."

I think it's time we stopped betting/gambling on trying to win the second ball and bring in a keeper that suits the methods of ten Hag.

 

[NLunited]

Proactive teams who look to exert zonal and positional control with the aim/emphasis of playing the game in a vertical axis, will by default have more possession. The aim isn't to control possession but rather to dominate zones and spaces with and without the ball. And the best teams in the EPL are those teams with a strong build up phase, which starts from their keepers and allows their midfielders and attackers to flourish, even against teams who are adept at pressing high. And those teams average a high percentage of possession by default due to their proactive approach to playing the game.

We could've won the game against Brighton, but it wouldn't solve the structural problems we see in the build up phase against any team that is technically strong in possession and presses high as a collective unit. And not solving the clear weaknesses in the build up phase won't ever allow us to catch the likes of City and Arsenal currently, who have implemented into their teams a clear identity over the span of several years.

We need a striker but without having a strong build up phase, we won't challenge the current bench mark in the EPL and neither will ten Hag implement his methods, which involves playing through the press. But if we do manage to add three technically strong players and those players are a upgrade on the GK, RB and CM positions, we will look a very different proposition. The rest of the league games won't be easy but I don't see a remaining fixture that will pose a high pressing or first phase build up threat to us like some of the teams we've already faced. We should have more space to bring the ball out of defence in the remaining league fixtures.

And the following quotes are from De Zerbi and Luis Enrique, which are absolutely spot on imo. And the quicker ten Hag brings that idea to fruition, the quicker we'll develop as a proactive attacking unit.




Luis Enrique: “I look to have three starting goalkeepers and I think that right now I have them. Honestly. I wouldn’t have an issue with any of the three of them starting," he said."


"Luis Enrique went on to stress the importance of having a keeper that commands his penalty area and has excellent distribution skills to kick start attacks - two areas in which it has been suggested De Gea can be found lacking.


Luis Enrique: “Unai has accumulated some interesting experience. A goalkeeper should start the play and generate the first superiority, they must dominate the aerial play," the 52-year-old added."


Brighton manager De Zerbi:

"In my opinion, kicking the ball long and trying to win the second ball is a bet. Since I don't like betting I would rather train my team to play out from the back because that is not betting, that is 'working'."

I think it's time we stopped betting/gambling on trying to win the second ball and bring in a keeper that suits the methods of ten Hag.

You think an upgrade on De Gea, Dalot and Casemiro will fix our playing out from the back problems?

 

[Adnan]

You think an upgrade on De Gea, Dalot and Casemiro will fix our playing out from the back problems?

What are the 'back problems'?

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

You think an upgrade on De Gea, Dalot and Casemiro will fix our playing out from the back problems?

I think the aim should be playing good football on consistent basis. We can’t play good football on consistent basis if we don’t have ball playing keeper, press resistant midfielder, and defenders that have composure and capable to play from the back. If we spend the big money on striker instead, we will rely more on individual brilliance.

 

[Adnan]

I think the aim should be playing good football on consistent basis. We can’t play good football on consistent basis if we don’t have ball playing keeper, press resistant midfielder, and defenders that have composure and capable to play from the back. If we spend the big money on striker instead, we will rely more on individual brilliance.

Good post.

The aim should absolutely be to develop a playing style where we can build play from the back against teams who press high. And ten Hag's methods demand that, hence I believe a GK will arrive in the summer along with a midfielder who possesses the traits to be the first receiver from midfield and he will potentially connect defence with attack.

Because the way we're playing currently, especially against teams who are good at closing off the space high up the pitch, it doesn't suit Eriksen, because the long kicks forward mean we have to fight for the second ball by trying to win aerial and ground duels, which is not his game. This has to change going forward and the build up phase cannot be a weakness.

And for this season we're along with Forest and Bournemouth the worst team for playing in a high defensive line. With City, Arsenal and Liverpool the three best teams in that regard which likely reflects their stats when it comes to big chance creation and ball retention.

To raise the defensive line and play the game in the opponent's half we must have players in the build up phase who provide technical security in possession, aswell as the ability to progress the play through the thirds.

And even with all those issues, we've managed to put ourselves in a good position to make the top 4. And that's without mentioning all the injuries, volume of games and the Ronaldo distraction.

People say this is not a normal season for the likes of Chelsea and Liverpool but this is also not a normal season for ten Hag, who normally has his teams playing proactive attacking football with the goalkeeper providing the first superiority in the first phase due to him (GK) being the free man.

We have the potential to go up several levels next season and I think we'll bring in the necessary upgrades to transition into a team that has the ability to sacrifice defensive stability for goals. Hopefully the sale/ownership situation will be resolved soon, which will help.