Dead Drafters Society
- Thread starter Šjor Bepo
- Start date
Guys, too busy with family stuff at the moment, I'll pick it up again when that's through.
yeah, also forgot to watch edgars but like the first time, again people not participating. RIP thread
thought of opening a new thread but reckon its better to keep this baby alive <3
As all know im doing my Rijkaard/Carlos thing in order to properly asses their quality considering from casual watching before the reputation didnt match the performance levels. Whats even better is that you watch so many games over the time that you spot some other players that are also over or under rated so its an interesting process.
Just thought maybe someone else could be interested in doing this as well and maybe we all share opinions here? Reckon we all have time to watch 1 game per week? or just post whenever you finish your viewing....contrary to dead drafters we dont need to watch same games nor same players, anyone can watch what they want and share their opinions here afterwards. Idea is to pick a player and watch their games from a peak period against good opposition.
IMO would be brilliant if people get involved so we all learn a bit more about certain players!
As all know im doing my Rijkaard/Carlos thing in order to properly asses their quality considering from casual watching before the reputation didnt match the performance levels. Whats even better is that you watch so many games over the time that you spot some other players that are also over or under rated so its an interesting process.
Just thought maybe someone else could be interested in doing this as well and maybe we all share opinions here? Reckon we all have time to watch 1 game per week? or just post whenever you finish your viewing....contrary to dead drafters we dont need to watch same games nor same players, anyone can watch what they want and share their opinions here afterwards. Idea is to pick a player and watch their games from a peak period against good opposition.
IMO would be brilliant if people get involved so we all learn a bit more about certain players!
Maybe. I won't commit but I'll try to post a review from time to time.
I'll try and join
Aye, am interested.
In
Sure, this might push me to actually finish these projects when I start them
Happy to chip in a semi-regular review. Unlikely to be the same player but.
Any other sites than Footballia? They have put some behind a paywall now.
I'm thinking of two options:
1) picking up my long-time & unfinished Gerd Müller project again. Part of it was making a tactical summary + individual stats of every available full game. Already did this for most games years ago, but I think I'd need to do it again, as stats need to be more in line with Opta criteria to be of any use.
2) Facchetti - how did he really balance offense & defense, how was his actual role inside the Inter/Italy backlines - maybe some check of draft superman status is in order, whatever the outcome?
Any preferences from the drafters? Not that I have much spare time atm, but that's the next problem...
1) picking up my long-time & unfinished Gerd Müller project again. Part of it was making a tactical summary + individual stats of every available full game. Already did this for most games years ago, but I think I'd need to do it again, as stats need to be more in line with Opta criteria to be of any use.
2) Facchetti - how did he really balance offense & defense, how was his actual role inside the Inter/Italy backlines - maybe some check of draft superman status is in order, whatever the outcome?
Any preferences from the drafters? Not that I have much spare time atm, but that's the next problem...
what? when? watch it there all the time and never seen anything
ffs
The "master feature" shows you their position in the game. The game itself is still available to watch for free
ffs
My error. Harms is right. I just needed to update my account.
Yep, seems so.
Although "full access to catalogue" appears to be a "master feature" - not sure what this means. As far as I can tell, you can access all matches just as before (without signing up for the "master" thing).
I'm kinda tempted to try a "master" subscription just to check out what the features actually are. But it doesn't look all that impressive at first glance, I gotta say.
ETA I wouldn't mind paying 20 Euros for 12 months if it means access to exclusive (as in: not available to non-paying users) content: It's a good resource and I don't mind supporting it with a few bob. But what I'm after is the match footage, and if I can access all of that without paying...well, there you are: no real incentive to spend money if these "features" are just junk you don't really need: Dark mode, create your own playlists and: randomizer! Yeah, I really need that. It's not Spotify, ffs.
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I was a paid subscriber at some point but if I remember correctly it was out of the goodness of my heart, there weren't any additional features at that point. They've added formations to some games that you can only see if you're a member and the search function is slightly upgraded but nothing vital.
Can't even subscribe to them now with Russia being cut away from SWIFT
Ah, yes - that sucks.Can't even subscribe to them now with Russia being cut away from SWIFT
Was talking about this the other day with a Russian acquaintance of mine (in the context of record collecting) - he's pretty much fecked at the moment in terms of ordering stuff from abroad: Visa/Mastercard/PayPal etc.
I’m in. I will post review on a match that I think it’s interesting to watch and study.
I'll contribute, though i'm not watching a particular player/team for any length of time recently. Had a very near death experience in the family a few weeks ago (sister) and i've moved in to help them recover, so will be probably be a month or two before i get time to post about any new games/players watched.
If anyone's interested when i next get some time, I'll post some thoughts on Mikhail An ( Soviet playmaker prospect/overlooked talent who died in the '79 Dniprodzherzynsk mid-air collision and was considered of equal ability as teammate Vasilis Hatzipanagis) and other notable players from the Euro 76 under-23 Quarter-Final games between Soviet Union and France. Those are two I watched recently specifically for An, inspired by seeing his name appear in a recent draft. He ended up impressing me quite a lot and was probably the best mid/attacker over both games despite the usual '70s playmaker reservations he displayed in the first game (physicality, defensive commitment), with the second-leg being a great performance that went a good way to counter the flaws of the first while further confirming the strengths.
If anyone's interested when i next get some time, I'll post some thoughts on Mikhail An ( Soviet playmaker prospect/overlooked talent who died in the '79 Dniprodzherzynsk mid-air collision and was considered of equal ability as teammate Vasilis Hatzipanagis) and other notable players from the Euro 76 under-23 Quarter-Final games between Soviet Union and France. Those are two I watched recently specifically for An, inspired by seeing his name appear in a recent draft. He ended up impressing me quite a lot and was probably the best mid/attacker over both games despite the usual '70s playmaker reservations he displayed in the first game (physicality, defensive commitment), with the second-leg being a great performance that went a good way to counter the flaws of the first while further confirming the strengths.
Lets start with this
Wont focus on Bobby Carlos, will save that after i finish his whole peak but will just say this game was one of his better ones! Regarding this game there is not much to say, Valencia played some decent stuff but lacked the killer instinct and some quality up front. Midfield of Mendieta, Deschamps, Baraja and Kily Gonzalez was pretty good.
As i watched all big games(bar CL) of Real from 97 to now start of 01 reckon it would be nice to share my thoughts on some of the players.
Players i didnt rate before nor do i rate after rewatching:
- Davor Suker - just an atrocious footballer with couple of impressive tournaments for the national team. He was a good goalscorer but thats about it, reminds me a lot of Lukaku.
- Panucci - do people rate him just because he is italian? Decent going forward, average at the back....never understood the hype.
- Hierro - your typical Real Madrid defender, score tons of goals, capable of great games but overall he is just an average defender
- Raul - bit of a forgotten man for some reason but guy was class, played all over the final third and could do a bit of everything really - good link up play, great goalscorer and can assist as well.
- Mijatovic - similar to Raul, lesser goalscorer but a bit stronger on the ball and in creative department
- Redondo - while i rated him very highly eve before this, now i rate him even more because his defensive game was really, really good.
- Seedorf - just awful at this stage of his career, reminds me a lot of Pogba
- Salgado - from memory he was a damn good defender, after rewatching the footage he really wasnt....what makes him funny is that Beckham Netflix show where Salgado was full of himself yet in same time he was playing like a donkey.
- Jaime - a bit of a nobody really, didnt play much for Real nor was his career anything of note afterward but whenever he played he was pretty good!
Hierro played often in midfield, even as late as Euro 96. I don't think he was really a classic defender, but one of the many good multi-purpose technical players from the 70s-90s who realised dropping back to become a "ball playing libero/centre back" was easy street on the ball (and obviously very effective in the right setup), especially if you had lost a step or two physically. An ideal change of role if you had good vision and passing, a few traditional defensive partners, and weren't an outright liability defensively. Hierro and an aging Manolo Sanchis for the years they were a partnership was not the most balanced combo, though.
Okay, I'll try one.
Facchetti vs BVB 1964 (EC SF, 1st leg, away game)
Facchetti is only 21 here, but his trademark style already seems fully developed – as well as his international reputation for said style, going by the German commentator.
The match itself isn't an instant classic, especially Inter's offensive game becomes more and more sketchy and dire as the game progresses. Dortmund dominates the second half and, on balance, should have won the game. What's impressive though is Inter's collective work against the ball, including the forwards. Especially Corso is everywhere, as is Suarez (in a deeper role than the Italian).
(M) = marker
Positions fluctuate wildly, both those of markers and free players
I may put my takeaways in a seperate post later. But Facchetti first.
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Facchetti is one of (by my count) four man markers, guarding BVB right winger Wosab, but he has extra freedom to go forward and receive cover until he's back. His attacking moves are relatively frequent, but mostly pinpoint sprints from deep rather than the more consistent high & wide positioning of a modern fullback. In possession he can sometimes be seen in a semi-advanced lurking position that allows him to launch such a run behind. This also requires him to track back fast if a ball is played behind him on the break, which sometimes works out, sometimes not so much. But here Picchi's sweeps and Inter's flexible defense are instrumental.
Some observations and working hypotheses based on this one game - kept them rather definitive, not because that's warranted, but to have something to work with in the future.
[edit - changed formation graphic in spoiler]
Facchetti vs BVB 1964 (EC SF, 1st leg, away game)
Facchetti is only 21 here, but his trademark style already seems fully developed – as well as his international reputation for said style, going by the German commentator.
The match itself isn't an instant classic, especially Inter's offensive game becomes more and more sketchy and dire as the game progresses. Dortmund dominates the second half and, on balance, should have won the game. What's impressive though is Inter's collective work against the ball, including the forwards. Especially Corso is everywhere, as is Suarez (in a deeper role than the Italian).
(M) = marker
Positions fluctuate wildly, both those of markers and free players
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Facchetti is one of (by my count) four man markers, guarding BVB right winger Wosab, but he has extra freedom to go forward and receive cover until he's back. His attacking moves are relatively frequent, but mostly pinpoint sprints from deep rather than the more consistent high & wide positioning of a modern fullback. In possession he can sometimes be seen in a semi-advanced lurking position that allows him to launch such a run behind. This also requires him to track back fast if a ball is played behind him on the break, which sometimes works out, sometimes not so much. But here Picchi's sweeps and Inter's flexible defense are instrumental.
Some observations and working hypotheses based on this one game - kept them rather definitive, not because that's warranted, but to have something to work with in the future.
- Facchetti should be broadly seen as a rapid center back playing wide, although in some ways a peculiar one (which is important admittedly).
- His attacking moves are mostly box-to-box runs towards goal rather than wide overlaps. He mostly serves as an onrushing second striker rather than a winger. If going wide, he usually turns and crosses on his right foot.
- His attacking game is therefore more about scoring than assisting
- In defense, he can about equally be found wide and in a CB position in the box
- Suggested comparison players for further research: Bergomi/Maldini (old school FBs), Cabrini (Zona Mista attacking LB), Maicon (modern über-attacking FB), Gvardiol at City
- Like classic libero dashes, Facchetti's attacking style depends on facing a man-marking system, opening up sudden pockets of space to run into. Against a zonal defense, he'd mainly run into guarded pockets, producing mostly central overloads rather than his trademark breakthroughs
- Compared to the other three stoppers, Facchetti is a bit less aggressive/proactive and sometimes even a tad complacent. His defensive ability is clear as day, but sometimes he seems to trust his recovering skills a bit too much. Fully controlled & balanced, this can be a great defending style, though. And he has very good moments here too, tbc.
- Need to check more on how he fares against small, bustling wingers. Some defending against Wosab was comfortable, some a tad shaky.
- In a modern zonal environment he'd mostly play as a complete, progressive CB, or makeshift defensive FB à la Boateng/Pavard.
[edit - changed formation graphic in spoiler]
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As you can see, I went with challenging the consensus here. Fully aware it may be too much at some points, so please don't kill me 
lovely post synco
Here he is at the other end of his career making a massive game deciding blunder against David Kipiani and perhaps realising it's time to retire.
@Synco next against a great winger please, just not chislenko and jairzinho as we know they cooked him
Hmm, didn't think it'd be necessary to sing Facchetti's praises, as it should be clear how special he was. But the conversation leans a bit too much toward the critical side for me. So a little addendum to my post above.
a) it's clearly visible we're looking at a great player, even if his development is perhaps not finished there. The package of offensive, defensive, and physical/athletic abilities is outstanding.
b) in terms of offensive importance, Fachetti can keep up with Inter's star attackers, in his own way - while also being roughly on par with Inter's ace defenders
c) the aim is to get a realistic picture of the player, his individual & tactical characteristics, nothing more, nothing less. No particular interest in 'fraud-hunting' on my part.
a) it's clearly visible we're looking at a great player, even if his development is perhaps not finished there. The package of offensive, defensive, and physical/athletic abilities is outstanding.
b) in terms of offensive importance, Fachetti can keep up with Inter's star attackers, in his own way - while also being roughly on par with Inter's ace defenders
c) the aim is to get a realistic picture of the player, his individual & tactical characteristics, nothing more, nothing less. No particular interest in 'fraud-hunting' on my part.
Will go chronologically, so the 1964 final vs Real is up next.
btw, that goal i linked to was done in a light hearted way, not intended as a legitimate putdown of his ability, or mockery, just in case it seemed that way.
I know, that was clear - just tried to balance out the vibe of all posts combined (including mine). Wasn't even necessary, probably.
Same with Bobby, wont focus much on Rijkaard at this point but will just say this is one of his best performances i saw so far, maybe even the best! Dominated the game almost on all fronts. Positioning same as always, nowhere near the DM position.
Regarding Milan, im not as deep as with Real Madrid and Bobby but going strongly into the second season with them so can once again share my thoughts.
Players i didnt rate before nor do i rate after rewatching:
- Tassotti - looks like a bang average player playing in a great team, willing runner on the offensive end but very poor quality on the ball.
Players i rated before and i rate afterwards:
- Van Basten - pure class, prefer the Ajax version but quality is insane. Just a brilliant all-round player rather then a classic n9 that people often shoehorn him
- Costacurta - great sidekick and pretty much as good as most judge him
- Ancelotti - classy player, playing in position you would expect Rijkaard was playing based on reputation
Surprises:
- Maldini - obviously rated him insanely high but somehow, guy is even better! Absolute machine and head and shoulders(only head in MvB case) best player in those 2 seasons i watched! Underrated him on the ball previously and his defending is just insane, i mean when you have Costacurta and Baresi next to him and he looks class above in EVERY single game.
- Baresi - went into this having him as the best proper defender ever, boy was i wrong I mean he is still great and you can see where the reputation comes from but he just isnt that good. High line master is a myth, his defending is almost more stopper like rather then sweeper so often he creates gap at the back as he acts a too rash but overall a very, very good defender. On the ball he is class, a bit to direct for my taste but thats personal preference.
- Donadoni - absolutely love this guy, pretty much the perfect team player and the glue of the team. Often Rijkaard finds himself in "Bruno mode" where he is everywhere yet nowhere but Donadoni makes up for it and patches everything up. Great tactical nous, workrate and teamwork of highers order and a lovely player on the ball.
Wanted to watch more Nobby Stiles, so picked this. Some other cracking players to watch too.
1968 European Cup Finals: Man Utd 4 - 1 Benfica
Summary:
First half was a scrappy defensive affair with lots of fouls, man marking and overall negative affair. Coluna aside, no other midfielder turned up for Benfica. Eusebio & Torres did what they could, but after being man marked by Stiles & Foulkes, nothing much came from them. Sadler (I'm still unclear if he was a CB or CF. Thought he played CF in 1st half but switched to CB in 2nd) missed a couple of sitters. Bobby was all defensive and United's most influential midfielder was Crerand. Aston on LW was electric and probably the best player on the pitch.
Second half was more open and United finally started to play on the offence and it was a markedly more entertaining affair to watch. Charlton playing upfront more, Best more central with Sadler shuffled out to defence. Crerand and Kidd were both pushing it up into Benfica's defence which was barely holding up. A goal against the run of play (where art thou Dunne/Sadler?) evened the scores for Benfica and some lively to and fro till end of regulation time.
In ET, United started off well and after 2 goals within first 4 mins, Benfica folded like a wet towel.
Thoughts on players:
Foulkes - Nearly played as a midfielder. Marked Torres well out, but was not very influential otherwise.
Charlton - Was all defensive early and then proper B2B LCM for the rest. Scored twice
Crerand - I'd give him the title of midfield general over Bobby C. Was everywhere and far more influential in running the game.
Kidd. Was nowhere in 1st half, more influential at LW in 2nd and scored a good goal.
Aston - Would have been the MotM if not for Charlton scoring twice. Absolutely electric and nightmare for Jose Augusto
Best - Constantly hacked. Got one chance to score and put that away.
.
Eusebio - Gentleman. Got hacked couple of time by Stiles, but didn't get any support from his team. Hardworking player all over the attacking front. Not much tracking back (compared to Charlton), but looked very dangerous few time he was able to get free with the ball.
Coluna - Midfield General for Benfica. Was all over LM/LW and hard to contain. Pace, workrate, ability to move the ball...he's a top class LCM.
So, Nobby Stiles:
Most of the time, he was able to anticipate Eusebio and cut him off before he could get the ball. Couple of time he got caught behind, it was a hack job. The whole narrative Benfica losing because of Stiles hacking Eusebio was only part of the picture as most of Benfica defence did the same to Best and more often too.
But having said that, he pretty much ran United's defence all game, which I found very surprising. Wasn't easy to watch, wasn't beautiful, but brutally effective. He was everywhere, moving up to tackle the ball carrier or being the last man, covering wide on both flanks, he did it all. Surprisingly he was the leader organizing the defence and commentators noted that twice through the game too. I don't think United's defence would have held together this game, if not for Stiles. Uncanny ability to sniff out the ball and be there right place right time, most of the time. He was the only one who got even close to saving the Benfica goal and no others United players were even close by.
I think he is is a more complete player than he gets credit for. The highlight reel hack jobs do him a disservice. Foulkes, Dunne, Sadler, Charlton and Crerand played a expansive game all because of Stiles. I think his value is less on what he offers himself (physical defending) and more on what he frees up others for.
1968 European Cup Finals: Man Utd 4 - 1 Benfica
Summary:
First half was a scrappy defensive affair with lots of fouls, man marking and overall negative affair. Coluna aside, no other midfielder turned up for Benfica. Eusebio & Torres did what they could, but after being man marked by Stiles & Foulkes, nothing much came from them. Sadler (I'm still unclear if he was a CB or CF. Thought he played CF in 1st half but switched to CB in 2nd) missed a couple of sitters. Bobby was all defensive and United's most influential midfielder was Crerand. Aston on LW was electric and probably the best player on the pitch.
Second half was more open and United finally started to play on the offence and it was a markedly more entertaining affair to watch. Charlton playing upfront more, Best more central with Sadler shuffled out to defence. Crerand and Kidd were both pushing it up into Benfica's defence which was barely holding up. A goal against the run of play (where art thou Dunne/Sadler?) evened the scores for Benfica and some lively to and fro till end of regulation time.
In ET, United started off well and after 2 goals within first 4 mins, Benfica folded like a wet towel.
Thoughts on players:
Foulkes - Nearly played as a midfielder. Marked Torres well out, but was not very influential otherwise.
Charlton - Was all defensive early and then proper B2B LCM for the rest. Scored twice
Crerand - I'd give him the title of midfield general over Bobby C. Was everywhere and far more influential in running the game.
Kidd. Was nowhere in 1st half, more influential at LW in 2nd and scored a good goal.
Aston - Would have been the MotM if not for Charlton scoring twice. Absolutely electric and nightmare for Jose Augusto
Best - Constantly hacked. Got one chance to score and put that away.
.
Eusebio - Gentleman. Got hacked couple of time by Stiles, but didn't get any support from his team. Hardworking player all over the attacking front. Not much tracking back (compared to Charlton), but looked very dangerous few time he was able to get free with the ball.
Coluna - Midfield General for Benfica. Was all over LM/LW and hard to contain. Pace, workrate, ability to move the ball...he's a top class LCM.
So, Nobby Stiles:
Most of the time, he was able to anticipate Eusebio and cut him off before he could get the ball. Couple of time he got caught behind, it was a hack job. The whole narrative Benfica losing because of Stiles hacking Eusebio was only part of the picture as most of Benfica defence did the same to Best and more often too.
But having said that, he pretty much ran United's defence all game, which I found very surprising. Wasn't easy to watch, wasn't beautiful, but brutally effective. He was everywhere, moving up to tackle the ball carrier or being the last man, covering wide on both flanks, he did it all. Surprisingly he was the leader organizing the defence and commentators noted that twice through the game too. I don't think United's defence would have held together this game, if not for Stiles. Uncanny ability to sniff out the ball and be there right place right time, most of the time. He was the only one who got even close to saving the Benfica goal and no others United players were even close by.
I think he is is a more complete player than he gets credit for. The highlight reel hack jobs do him a disservice. Foulkes, Dunne, Sadler, Charlton and Crerand played a expansive game all because of Stiles. I think his value is less on what he offers himself (physical defending) and more on what he frees up others for.
Good stuff @Edgar Allan Pillow
Trying to make sense of your larger Rijkaard reevaluation effort (great work, btw): I guess it's fair to see the above as Sacchi's intentional design for the team? A DLP + BTB constellation, with lots of freedom for the latter and collective measures to allow for it.
Can only confirm your praise for Ancelotti, he stood out in his own way when I watched classic Milan.
My impression as well. Smart defensive brain, the build of a DM, not shy to get into physical duels.
[edit - just remembered I once did a post on the subject, including some visual material]
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Very interesting summary @Edgar Allan Pillow, especially on the team-internal stopper/attacking player dynamic.
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Good analysis guys.
Agree with you on Tassotti @Šjor Bepo, he's always been a technically limited trier.
Agree with you on Tassotti @Šjor Bepo, he's always been a technically limited trier.
On Baresi... i always saw him as a great organiser (verbally and on the ball) yet, while also a great "pure" defender overall, lacking some speed and agility to be a Maldini/Nesta/Stam/Vierchowod/Kohler sort of monster in duels and quick recovery if beaten/outmaneuvered. However that might be because it was the many '90s games that stayed sharper in my memory. other than some of the biggest '80s ones.