They aren’t playing the same position. Rice is playing where Partey played, Havertz is playing where Xhaka played. Surely those would be the 2 comparisons to make?
Not when you have an agenda to push.
Declan Rice | Arsenal £105m player
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
Not when you have an agenda to push.
And people need to stop mentioning Xhaka. He was determined to leave and was already out the door before Arteta convinced him to stay for a bit. The offer provided him was worse than Leverkusen's offer so he left despite Arteta's wishes.
I don’t think anyone gives a shit why he left (other than Arteta fans like yourself, determined to defend his every decision) The point is he did leave. And hasn’t been adequately replaced.
It's really odd how Rice was signed to accommodate Havertz, rather than the other way around. Everyone with eyes knows that Arsenal played much better last year with Party/Xhaka. That doesn't make Rice a bad player, just weirdly overrated.
The point is that it is asinine mentioning him in a Rice thread. The replacement for Xhaka was Havertz.
I'm also not sure how my post can be interpreted as a defense of Arteta, but if you are annoyed at Arteta supposedly being given a light ride by the media (compared to Ole/EtH) then I can see how you view any post not flagellating him as a defense of Arteta
What's this supposed to prove? You realise both squads have changed quite a bit aside from Rice?
who said it was meant to prove anything? yes i realise that
Its just a bit of a silly tweet that removes all context.
And provides some, too.
Sure, but those have been covered here already - such as the change of shape in Arsenal to shoehorn Havertz and the vast improvement in the West Ham squad overall filling much needed holes and Moyes type players. It's not the gotcha type tweet which the writer of it is trying to portray.
Nor is it without any merit in a thread about Rice, as you are trying to portray.
Well he could have ran his contract down
He's been somewhere between ok and good whenever I've watched them.
I think he is suffering from a similar thing to Casemiro at United this season. Being asked to play a role in a system by a manager who doesn't quite seem to understand what it asks of him.
He can't do his job AND cover for Havertz because the system Arsenal play already requires him to be the hardest working and most disciplined player on the pitch. They do a much better job than United of getting players around him and working as a unit, but it's still a big ask when probably the main player meant to be supporting him is a passenger.
I don't know why Pep's understudies have this obsession with copying a system that only even works properly for him when he has De Bruyne fit (having arguably the best player in the league does help, in the same way any midfield is instantly good if Paul Scholes is in it). He also makes sure his other advanced middle player is someone who is combative in midfield and will drop back. Havertz on the other hand would have a 100+ rating for invisibility on Fifa.
Also I don't think the West Ham point is irrelevant at all. If Rice was THAT good they would have struggled to replace him and the difference would be more noticeable. He just kind of ticked along in their team and theyve managed to improve by bringing in a few middle road players. If anything he's been a bit better at Arsenal but he's never going to be a Carrick, or a Kante or even a Rodri type who can run the team from that position. Not for me anyway. He could be in asucesful team if he had a better partner than Havertz though, I think.
I think he is suffering from a similar thing to Casemiro at United this season. Being asked to play a role in a system by a manager who doesn't quite seem to understand what it asks of him.
He can't do his job AND cover for Havertz because the system Arsenal play already requires him to be the hardest working and most disciplined player on the pitch. They do a much better job than United of getting players around him and working as a unit, but it's still a big ask when probably the main player meant to be supporting him is a passenger.
I don't know why Pep's understudies have this obsession with copying a system that only even works properly for him when he has De Bruyne fit (having arguably the best player in the league does help, in the same way any midfield is instantly good if Paul Scholes is in it). He also makes sure his other advanced middle player is someone who is combative in midfield and will drop back. Havertz on the other hand would have a 100+ rating for invisibility on Fifa.
Also I don't think the West Ham point is irrelevant at all. If Rice was THAT good they would have struggled to replace him and the difference would be more noticeable. He just kind of ticked along in their team and theyve managed to improve by bringing in a few middle road players. If anything he's been a bit better at Arsenal but he's never going to be a Carrick, or a Kante or even a Rodri type who can run the team from that position. Not for me anyway. He could be in asucesful team if he had a better partner than Havertz though, I think.
I think your two points are linked. West Ham were easily able to replace Rice with middle of the road players because less was demanded of him as he played on the left of a double pivot in a fairly defensive team. Alvarez could do most of what Moyes was asking Rice to do for only £35m, leaving £70m of the Rice fee for reinforcements. Mavropanos, Ward-Prowse and Kudus were all excellent signings for them. I expected them to be a better team, which is why I thought the West Ham fan hate was odd - the transfer was a rare win-win-win for all parties.
Teams that want to dominate play very rarely play a back four protected by a double pivot. The entire reason for paying all that money is that he (like Partey) enables us to play a true 4-3-3.
KDB isn’t the indispensable cog in City’s midfield - Rodri is. KDB has missed a ton of games in recent years and City have won every trophy going. As soon as Rodri is unavailable for a few games, they look half the team.
Casemiro’s problem at United isn’t that he’s playing as a lone pivot. It’s that he’s past his peak and no longer has Modric and Kroos playing alongside him.
He would have been a good addition for us..
We should have paid the 105M instead of mount for 50M
We should have paid the 105M instead of mount for 50M
I don't really agree. If you stuck Rodri or even Casemiro in West Ham's team for example,they would stick out a lot more than Rice did, because they will naturally start to dictate the team's play. Rice was just kind of there.
Rodri is also key to City, but they look vulnerable whenever KDB is missing because Rodri then struggles when the opposition break and they can't hurt teams enough to submit them into being boxed in. KDB comes back and they mysteriously go on a 15 game winning run where no one can get near them.
I've been making this point with Casemiro all season but whether he's past his best is irrelevant. There isn't a player on earth you can leave as isolated in midfield as United have done with him (and with Amrabat, Mainoo etc when they've played I'm his place). One player can't cover the entire middle third of the pitch on their own regardless of their age,fitness or ability.
This isn't true.
2018-19, KDB was missing for almost the entire season with injury yet City went on a crazy win streak to reel in Liverpool and win the title.
2019-20, KDB had an outstanding season for City, who finished 18 points behind Liverpool, due to Rodri getting used to the pace of the PL and City being unusually porous to counters.
KDB offers City an extra lethal edge, but their DMs (Fernandinho, Rodri) and 8s (Gundogan, B Silva) are way more important to City's dominance, both in solidity and progression of the ball to the final third.
You could argue he would've been a better addition than 72M Hojlund. Rice does have more premier league goals...
@adexkola mentioned most of the points I was going to make. The only thing I’d add is that replacing Rice with Rodri or Casemiro in West Ham’s starting line up from last year would change very little. However you want to define the term “dictate play”, there isn’t a great deal of difference between a Casemiro in his 30s and Rice. Rodri is clearly a step above, but even he wouldn’t change things all that much.
I think you’ve managed to somehow both underrate and overrate the influence of the single pivot player. You’re downplaying Rodri’s importance to City, but suggesting that he would significantly elevate West Ham. I believe it’s the exact opposite. Rodri can dictate play at City because he surrounded by players on his level. That wouldn’t be the case at West Ham, particularly prior to their most recent transfer window.
Imagine dropping a prime Busquets into United’s midfield. Onana fizzes the ball to him and he controls it and pirouettes away from him marker all in one motion. He then:
- Lays it off to McTominay who miscontrols it and loses possession
- Or sprays it out to Wan-Bissaka who takes a heavy touch and is forced to play it back to Onana
- Or plays it into Bruno who attempts a shot from 35 yards
- Or finds Anthony whose predictable desire to cut in on his stronger foot is easily read by the defender
- Or pings it to Rashford in space who tries to go it alone despite United having a man over
- Or plays a through ball to Hojland whose meek attempt betrays a player bereft of confidence
Rice enables us to play Odegaard, Havertz, Saka, Martinelli and Jesus all in the same lineup and still concede fewer goals than any team bar Liverpool. There’s always room for improvement, but there are literally 8 players in our starting lineup I’d want to speak to before approaching Rice to buck up his ideas.
Last edited:
So fecking overrated.
Good assist for the Fulham goal.
Most progressive pass he's made this season
Most progressive pass he's made this season
I genuinely cannot remember seeing him pass the ball forward more than 5 times in a game.
He’s basically a third centre back who lacks any sort of ambition in possession.
He’s basically a third centre back who lacks any sort of ambition in possession.
Any vid?
Would have been decent for us when Stones is out in that role. Probably for Arsenal as well when Arteta decides to copy Pep again
Of course it was bullshit. Look who you're conversing with.
I've consistently said he's a CB playing in midfield and think @Robbie Boy was one who was of the same opinion.
I think you basically have to set your team up for your full backs to be midfielders as well, as he'll give you the perfect cover for when they all attack.
Once again, when Arsenal don't win you see all the quality. West Ham are still laughing.
Worth. Every. Penny.
Aye, I remember us having this conversation years ago. He was a CB who was shoehorned into that role by Moyes. Imo, that's exactly what he's always looked like: a CB playing as a DM.
I always knew someone would be stupid enough to blow outrageous money on him, and I genuinely expected it to be us.
This is our "Can being broke be a win" moment 
Thought the same - but a CB in a back 3. Because he wouldn't be good enough to play CB in a back 2 anyway. A bit like Eric Dier.
Aye, he didn't look particularly impressive when he started out as a CB.
"Better than Rodri this season".
Not even on Rodri's worst day.
Not even on Rodri's worst day.
He's an old fashioned and out of date DM.
Did he assist Fulham’s goal scorer then?
We need Partey or Jorginho back next to him soon (at least as options). Havertz/Trossard/Odegaard is just too open and no surprises we have lost the midfield battle in our last two losses. No doubt he's going through the worst form he's had with us so far the last couple of games. Was beginning to think he was superhuman. Hopefully he'll turn it around soon.
Aside from the fitness issues he is a certain downgrade on Partey. Who by the way allowed you to play all the same players and didn’t shirk responsibility to be creative with the ball.
Partey is easily a better player.
I am very surprised how little he rates Jorginho.