Ah, a grammar nazi. An unreadable mess you then go on to dissect. . .
If the way I post is the issue why are you still here? Expecting me to read on & respond after that opener
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If the way I post is the issue why are you still here? Expecting me to read on & respond after that opener
No, I don't give an arse about your grammar.Ah, a grammar nazi. An unreadable mess you then go on to dissect. . .
If the way I post is the issue why are you still here? Expecting me to read on & respond after that opener
It's a very simple thing to not press enter twice whenever you want or to edit your posts and remove them, before clicking post.
It's not pleasant on the eyes and it's genuinely hard to read.
But let's not distract from the fact that you have no have real argument because you're resorting to petty nonsense and green smileys.
You keep lying about what you previously said, as noted by a different poster earlier.
Caught with your pants down, so I'll have the last laugh.
Have some more green smileys
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Genuinely confused here, what is the accusation? I’m editing posts?
You’ve mentioned it on more than one occasion, you don’t like how I post & I don’t care. We can move on.
You weren’t forced to interact with my initial post. If you don’t like how I format posts on a forum then that’s honestly a you problem.
I have no real argument? You interacted with my post to which I have clarified on multiple occasions, the fact you began to converse & take my response as an argument says lots about you.But let's not distract from the fact that you have no have real argument because you're resorting to petty nonsense and green smileys.
You keep lying about what you previously said, as noted by a different poster you earlier.
Caught with your pants down, so I'll have the last laugh.
Have some more green smileys
What did I lie about saying? Funny how I called you out on saying your 2nd post was your 1st & now you’re gaslighting. Is this still about Raiola?
I made my point, & you keep highlighting Liverpool in bold like an infant with comic sans as if Raiola being a ‘worse’ absolves VdBs agent entirely. If you can’t grasp the point, fine - move on but don’t gaslight cause you lied about your 1st post.
‘Trousers down’, ‘last laugh’ calm down lad it’s an internet forum. We’re so far from the VdB topic at this point, move on.
Do you have a link for that? I've gotten curious by now.
Ok so Ole blocked him moving and has repeatedly stated he has a part to play. Fully expect him to start alongside Fred then against Newcastle with McTom injured so Pogba can continue his good work from the left…
When pigs fly
I thought I was maybe having issues with English here, but from https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Mouth+off:
No Olympic grade dexterity required as far as I can tell.
The funny thing, btw, is of course that we actually seem to agree on Van de Beek (despite the things you've attributed to me), but somehow you're just going nuts about his agent making a small comment.
Are you just being dense for the sake of it? "Trap a ball and pass it a bit"?
Joint conditions:
a) Midfielder (not the same as, say, striker where the transferability of Eredivisie performance is notoriously suspect)
b) Ajax Academy product
c) Shines for them (again, as a key midfielder) domestically and in Europe
Very few players meet that and any one of them would strengthen our squad. See below.
I never said it was about being Dutch.
It's not the Academy in isolation I was talking about but how our coaches should get a lot more out of an Ajax midfield youth product that turns into a key player for them at domestic and European level. The latter helps filter out the reality that they can no longer attract the best young talent into their Academy to begin with.
A good European campaign is the easiest way to draw up the list. Take EC/CL and UEFA Cup/Europa since 1990, at least QF stage and check for Academy products their midfields revolved around in those campaigns:
1991-1998 (from Uefa Cup win to post CL win): Ronald de Boer, Davids, Seedorf
2002-2003 (CL QF): Van der Vaart, Sneijder, Nigel de Jong
2016-2017 (EL final): Frenkie de Jong, Donny van de Beek
2018-2019 (CL SF): Frenkie de Jong, Donny van de Beek
That's a pretty impressive roster. You can add cameos from older Ajax Academy graduates like Aron Winter, Richard Witschge or Davy Klaassen, bringing experience to the mix in those midfields.
The most limited of that lot is Nigel de Jong, and he could actually do a job for us, albeit not solving the problems I reckon VDB can help us solve. None of our other midfielders will.
Edit: in a nutshell, an Ajax side, playing the way Ajax play, don't make European knockout phases with a bunch of 20yo youth products running their midfield unless these are pretty feckin' special.
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I’m not ‘going nuts’ about his agent though, I just see his comments in a different light to you. Instead of accepting the disagreement it’s descended into a personal critique.
It really is something when expressing a difference of opinion gets you called a ‘cnut’ [you didn’t make the comment but one of your cronies did].
I don’t think his agent going public to put pressure on the club is a good thing for the club. This isn’t the first time he’s done so either. He’s disclosed the details of a private conversation, which is louder than he needed to be in the instance. I also don’t particularly rate Raiola but I’m being positioned as his defendant some how. Barely ‘going nuts’, if you’d dial down the hysterics we could move on.
Pretty stupid from the agent to pipe off about it.
If Ole plays him in the next game it gives the opportunity for a narrative to be created that's due to the pressure from him and the manager is weak and soft, rather than Fred has been wank. Which makes it less likely that Ole will make the change.
Keep these issues private.
If Ole plays him in the next game it gives the opportunity for a narrative to be created that's due to the pressure from him and the manager is weak and soft, rather than Fred has been wank. Which makes it less likely that Ole will make the change.
Keep these issues private.
When a player who is pretty well known never plays there's going to be stuff said in the media. I'm surprised it's taken this long for some noise to come out.
It's hardly as though keeping quiet is helping. If VDB isn't going to be played, pretty sure the fair thing to do would be to let him leave. Hopefully he proves himself but I think he's been crap when he's actually played so it's hardly a surprise that we don't have faith in him yet.
Being a benchwarmer at a top team for a couple of years is not the end of the world. I agree if he’s not good enough to be trusted in games he should be let go but also sometimes it takes time for a player to settle into a team environment and sometimes it takes midway into their second or even third seasons before we start to see them regularly. It’s just the start of his 2nd season, if the club’s blocking moves away I think it’s fair to let them work on him. And if he doesn’t find a spot he’ll be moved on next year much richer and with some PL experience. People are making him too much of a martyr.
you clearly never understood my initial post at all. Its also fairly obvious that DVB offers more than just safe passing and recycling possession. His goal on his debut was exhibit A. He offers excellent attacking threat off the ball
to be fair i kind of agree, especially the 2002-2003 team who also had Chivu, Zlatan, Van Damme and Van der Meyde, Stekelenberg, Pienaar.
except the 2019 team wasn't the young guns you thought it was. Huntelaar 34 Ziyech 25, Schone 32, Tadic 29, Tagliafico 25, Blind 28, Veltman 26 with many of these being regular 1st teamers. One of the more older Ajax teams I have seen. De Ligt, Donny, De Jong, Noussair, Neres, Dolberg where all under 21's. Think its about 7 under 21's versus 8 over 21's who played the most CL games.
hereDo you have a link for that? I've gotten curious by now.
I wrote an elaborate piece on Donny when he just came to United, see below.. This still holds true for me.. (apart from my last suggestion to perhaps switch to a 442 diamond is not something I would suggest today anymore now that Sancho came..)
I wasnt able to see the match yesterday, but I read a few comments about him connecting well with Mata and that doesnt surprise me at all. I also read some comments stating he was kinda invisible on the pitch for a central midfielder and to be frank.. That also doesnt suprise me at all, looking at Donny's strenghts and looking at the line up yesterday... As someone who watches every Ajax match, I think three of Donny's major strenghts are the following.
1) Donny is a very good in combinations in tight spaces. In this he is a typical Ajax youth product, who is comfortable receiving the ball with little room, finding a close open man with one touch and moving immediately away again to receive the ball somewhere else and making room for other players. I read a couple times above that he was looking for 1-2's a lot and this is recognizable for me. His technique is not spectacular on the eye, but very effective and solid. Thats why I get the link with other technical gifted players close to him in the pitch, like Mata, and thats why I think he could play really well together with Bruno.
2) Donny finds spaces behind the opponents defense. When is isnt directly involved in the combination where the attack is being built up, he is a very good ball receiving midfielder. Somehow he is always 'there' and always 'open' in the final phase of an attack, whether to finish it of himself or to give the final pass to a teammate. Thats why with Ajax he worked extremely well with Tadic as a false number 9 who involved himself in the play and left spaces for Donny to dive into.
3) Donny gives you goals. He is not only good at finding spaces on the pitch and behind defenders, but when he receives it there he is very clinical. The goal against Palace was a good example of that. I think he has a very high conversion rate for changes in the box.
Donny is NOT a player who finds the creative solutions himself, with a pass between the lines (at Ajax that were Ziyech, Tadic, Promes, Neres) or by picking up the ball from defense and bringing it forward (at Ajax that were Frenkie, Blind, Schone). He is just not going to be that player for you.. You need other on your midfield to do so... So therefore seeing he was paired with Matic and Fred yesterday, I can understand is was very hard on the eyes, because you have no one to create creativity from midfield for you.. Ole should know this and not expect Donny to play like this..
If you start expecting Donny to be the creative brain in your team, United have completely wasted their money. However when used in his strenghts, I think he can be a very very good player for a world class team.
With Ajax this fit perfectly, because you had other players around him who did the things he's not world class in - finding the open spaces in creative manners - but he was used in his strenghts by Ajax playing combination football with other players comfortable on the ball and therewith creating spaces with quick combination football, ánd diving into the deep spaces left by Ziyech, Tadic and Neres in the attacking line.
How would this translate into United?
I think a midield with Pogba Bruno and Donny would never work on the highest level, as there is no balance. I think you always need a midfielder who is behind the ball 95% of the times. At Ajax that were Schone, Frenkie and last year Martinez. At United that could be Matic. If you play Bruno, Pogba ánd Donny you wouldnt use all of them in their strenghts as one of them would have to play in the #6 role, otherwise you risk getting your midfield overrun. I do think United however needs all of Donny, Bruno and Pogba on the pitch because all of them contain crucial qualities which no other current United players have. Donny bringhts depth and scoring ability off the ball, while also have the technical capabilities to link up with Bruno and Pogba. Bruno is the creative brain upfront and Pogba can be worldclass as a midfielder who brings the ball from back to front.
So íf you want to play them all, you need to switch strategy in my opinion, by either playing with Bruno as a false #9 in a 433 like situation, ór in a 442 diamond situation... Both are quite similiar actually). I think both could work extremely well as you will also be able to rotate the two attacking positions with Rashford, Greenwood and Martial. Remaining problem however is that in both scenario's you need proper wingbacks who can also provide some wide threats.
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good piece. thanks I appreciate it. I am curious what the plan was with him.
I guess over time people have forgotten, but he was supposed to be Bruno's backup. Unfortunately he's looked clueless there, which leads Ole to believe he needs time to adjust. Even Varane said he was surprised by the pace of the league.
If this was the plan it was an insanely stupid as they are extremely different players..
He wasn't ole's first choice to be fair, think it was grealish. We saw a chance to move for him when Madrid were dallying.
But then, haven't we recently retained Lingard & Mata as back up #10s..? In which case, does Donny get any opportunity to play there now?
Then again, if Donny needs to adjust to the pace of PL football, wouldn't a loan deal to Everton have been a perfect solution?
This whole scenario with Donny just baffles me, we spent £40M on this lad, but it seems to me that we don't know why we signed him, had no idea how to use him last season, and still don't have much idea now.
So both club and player are stuck in limbo.
This, either play him and give him a (real) chance to show himself, or sell him!
Guido Albers is the anti-Raiola
Somebody tried saying he was the same as Raiola earlier - couldn’t be any different in their dialogue.
They're both gobshites that are running their mouth!!!
The most reasonable agent of all time
My guess is that if we get rid of him, we'd be weakening ourselves, and he's not a kid anymore so better to have him stay here and learn our playing style while getting used to the league. As I said before, he'll get chances, just not thrown into the deep end. Last season he was often played in an advanced position but since he wasn't linking up shit, many including myself wanted to see him play deeper, but he's just as ineffective. I don't think it's about us not knowing how to use him, that's what most outsiders see, but it should be him getting used to our style not the other way around. We probably aren't going to change our system just to accommodate a squad player.
I remember reading this back then, very interesting stuff. I also remember us trying him in what looked like a diamond one or two times, without much promise though.
Things change, as you say, so what was the plan with Donny might no longer be the plan. Then we had Rashford, Martial and Greenwood who all were more effective as wide forwards than as wingers or strikers. Now we have Cavani, Ronaldo and a more developed Greenwood, and both Sancho and Pogba can play wide. When we keep him from going out at this point, I suspect we have a new plan, or the offers where simply not worth it for losing a squad option.
Looking at where Donny has played in training matches, and how he’s trained (building strength), it would seem that the idea is to try him in a midfield two as a Herrera kind of player. This is not playing to his strengths, but it might be worth a shot, as he is not the player we change our game for. It will mean abit of re-schooling, though, which might be the explanation why he plays in training matches and not in counting matches at all so far, all the while being kept on the books. Particularily as his confidence is not Bruno-esque, and with what you said about players like Schöne and Blind being preferred in that role for Ajax, it makes sense to blood him slowly in such a role to see if he can do it.
At this point, this is the only theory that makes sense to me for why he is kept and not played etc.
Wow, that agent is really running his mouth with all that sensible, measured commentary.
Except Pogba in a midfield two could only really work with peak Matic, not this Lieutenant Dan. "Do it against smaller teams" people say, but next you know you've opened yourself to these giving you a game.
Is Pogba going to become disciplined? No.
Is Matic going to grow new legs? No
Does VDB offer both? Yes
Play Lieutenant Dan and Fred and suddenly Southampton are swamping you and making you give them the ball back in dangerous areas for fun. Transition is compromised.
Is VDB more press-resistant and precise in his passing than McFred and Matic? Yes
McFred is our more reliable pairing. Somewhat tumescent and nothing to write home about, mind.
Shouldn't we work on VDB-Fred with Scott injured? No brainer really.
Ultimately, you can have ten World Class forwards for all I care, but you aren't getting much out of them without the ball.
Sure, they have an issue which isn't down to their academy itself but the model and the well drying up. They will never get hold of enough local talent, let alone hold on to them long enough.
Back in the 80s, with the three foreigner rule, the Dutch sourced young foreign talent that others wouldn't as they had their slots taken up. That's how Romario and Ronaldo start their European careers at PSV. Then more money is pumped into the game and the rule is eventually gone, they scoured Africa for talent and anchored themselves as the go-to stepping stone in Scandinavia. Late 00s they went into second-tier South American countries. But it's basically running against the tide like a hamster on a wheel.
Nope, we aren't going to see exciting 100% whipper-snapper sides again, but my point there was if you ever see an Ajax side doing well in Europe with Academy young guns in their midfield, expect those midfielders to be pretty fecking good going forward because no matter who they have at the back or upfront, their entire approach falls flat on its arse without technically adept and tactically astute and disciplined midfield operators.
I figured I could exaggerate a little this time with 'going nuts', but I see that's supposed to work only one way.
I appreciate, though, that you see me as a person you can confidentially go to if you want to complain about other posters that I have nothing to do with. I think it makes a lot of sense for Albers to explain the situation a bit, and to make clear where Van de Beek stands in this. It's good for the player, too, as he doesn't have to make comments and get the response if his agent does it for him. And in the end, it was all extremely mild and nothing anyone couldn't figure out for themselves: Van de Beek would like to play more, is interested in leaving, thinks it's flattering that the club doesn't let him, but hope that does translate into playtime this time. In case that doesn't connect to previous quotes, it is what the agent says here:
Plus those new quotes a bit above my post also show that Albers really isn't being a bad guy here.
Except, of course, if you want to go hyperpartisan and anything anyone says about United that isn't positive is out of bounds.
Ole is not like that. He has no intention to play either Mata or Jones, yet doesn’t try to sell them. Same is with Lingard. For some mysterious reason Ole is happy to have surplus players in the squad just eating up wages.
So, there are no reasons to believe he would act differently in relation to VDB
Agreed, I simply can't understand why we don't try him alongside Fred or Mctominay in tough away matches where opposition will press high. He is more suited to those matches where he will keep possession and get us out of tight spots, whereas Pogba delays and invite press and loses it in dangerous situations.
I honestly feel this is out best front 6
Fred/Mctominay VDB
Sancho/Greenwood Bruno Pogba
Ronaldo/Cavani
Not only this formation would mean we will always have two to three players available to receive the ball, as Pogba does not make runs beyond the striker and will drop into the pockets (similar to a no.10), and it won't make us predictable with all of Ronaldo, Bruno, Greenwood and Sancho making forward runs with nobody to pass through the middle.
Mata has played a role in cup games, Jones has been injured as outlined by Ole.
Lingard didn't want to go to West Ham, that's not Ole's fault. He's happy to sit on the bench here and see out his contract seemingly.
That’s not true. Jones was the starter before he got injured during Ole’s tenure as the caretaker and Mata has started a lot of Europa and cup games and I expect he will again.
Donny is really Schrodinger's midfielder. That bloke said he was the worst player and the girl said he was the best.
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