Can anyone summarize what's happened to us this season and why its gone this bad ?
He wont last the season at this rate.
He wont last the season at this rate.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Fair enough about Madrid if that's true.
My biggest issue with him is that I don’t feel any player significantly improves under him. I understand that he’s caught in the Glazer spiral of mediocrity, but that he cannot make a single player better than he was is worrying in my view
Seems that we mostly agree then.
Cmon, Sancho was never being selected for this match.
He hit the winner against Burnley, for a start. I like Pellestri but he hasn't shown that he can contribute at the top level.
If all that is true then the blame lies on Arnold, Murtough, and the Glazers for allowing it to happen.
I'm sure that pretty much every manager in the world wants full control over transfers, there's a reason why very few are allowed that in the modern era.
Rightly or wrongly he will be gone by Christmas. I dont even think the players have downed tools yet but that is coming.
Injuries are a problem but he has to set them up to be more solid. Individual mistakes due to lack of confidence is another big problem. He should have them set up to play a certain way by now, an identity but it seems to be missing.
The writing is on the wall unfortunately. I like Erik but the buck will always stop with the manager.
Either he lost the players or he's over complicating things. Both Bruno and Casemiro seem like they don't know what they should be doing.
Doesn't help that the team on current form seems only capable of getting the ball to the opposition box in straight line, anything else seems too difficult.
Doesn't help that the team on current form seems only capable of getting the ball to the opposition box in straight line, anything else seems too difficult.
But but, the manager coaches the team so the problem is clearly the managers , and it will be every managers fault until we win stuff!!!!
It’s mad how city can win the league with Pelligrini or Mancini and Barca/Madrid can be successful with nobody’s in charge and yet our problem is supposedly finding the right manager.
That's our problem, playing players out of form, out of position, in the hope that they might, possibly, maybe, produce a "moment" once every 10 games.
Madness.
It feels like, to me, that ETH has a lot of things going for him, but he seems to lack one thing and that is to be inspirational. He got the tactical part, the educational one and the stiff one. But when things go wrong you need to be able to turn the head of the players. The likes of Klopp and Guardiola and even, hate to say it, Arteta, does seem to have a charisma and attitude that inflicts the players. Still looking for a moment when a player runs back to him after a goal and celebrate or seeing him do a rush to his players.
We had the most inspiring gaffer for thirty years who really acted as a mentor, a father and a judge.Erik need some of that energy.
We had the most inspiring gaffer for thirty years who really acted as a mentor, a father and a judge.Erik need some of that energy.
If he starts Bruno at the weekend, I'm done defending him or justifying his actions.
Good question! I think it's because Ten Hag decided that instead of buying an actual, quality 8 to control the game and reliably progress the ball, something we obviously needed, we have to go and buy Mason Mount - a player that is not that. Because apparently, a double 10 is all the rage, you see. Yeah, we may not be able to get the ball past the midfield and get effortlessly turned over, but don't sweat the details. Just shut up and listen to Statman Dave.
So, now we have to play 31-year-old Casemiro as both DM and playmaker, while Mount and Bruno are running around in the opposition half. A solid plan.
Reflecting on this again...it seems to me that ETH has tried to change too much too soon.
In fairness to ANY footballer, it must be incredibly difficult to completely change the way you have played for years overnight. Johnny Evans actually alluded to this in his post-match interview following the Burnley game.
Last season, we looked, by and large, to be a fair/good football team. We looked compact, we kept plenty of clean sheets, we carried a goal threat. Most of all, we looked organised.
This season, we look an absolute mess. We've got huge, gaping holes all over the pitch and players popping up in all sorts of unorthodox positions that don't seem to suit them. We don't appear to be a possession team, or a long ball team, or a transition team...its not clear what we are.
I am 100% of the belief that our problems are tactical. I'm sick of hearing about the Glazers and Arnold and Murtough. I have made the point elsewhere, if we were talking about winning major trophies i.e. competing with the Oil Cheats, then yeah, I'd understand the argument that that's going to be extremely difficult without a world class management team.
However, they're not the reason we can't beat Palace, Galatasary or Brighton at home. The squad we have should be more than good enough to win those games and achieve a respectable league position.
For me, the problem is that we've changed too much too soon. OK, so I see the advantages of squeezing up the pitch, of moving full backs into midfield, of having CBs run forward to receive passes, of having a single pivot, of having four AMs occupying the half-spaces to overload the opposition, of having a ball-playing goalkeeper and of having a target-man style forward...but is it a good idea to implement all of those things at once?
What chance do the players actually have of learning that system in what accounts to a pre-season of about 6-8 weeks and then whatever time they get in between the 60-odd matches we play each season?
Would it not have been far, far better to implement these changes slowly, gradually working on one or two things at a time? It's like we're haunted by this spectre of Sir Alex Ferguson, our History and the Oil Cheats dominance of the modern era. We're rushing to do everything, as if we can fix this all in one season.
A full rebuild, which this is, should be considered a 5YR project. Gradually implementing the system we want and slowly buying the players we want, as the budget allows.
The big problem we have is, no manager ever gets to stay for 5YRs because we blow-up, we have a bit of relative success, achieve a decent league finish...and then we immediately rip-off the stabilisers and end-up going straight over the handlebars at 40mph.
We've got to get used to the idea that there's no quick fix to this. Many people say that, but I don't think they really understand the extent of it. For example, we talk about Spurs improvement under Ange, as an argument for the idea that change can happen fast...but all he's done is organise them and improve the spirit, with a few minor tactical tweaks. The baseline expectation is so much lower.
They might have a half-decent season, but they won't win the league...and if eventually IF that becomes the expectation, they'll almost certainly fail and blow-up like we do regularly.
So to summarise - we need to stop rushing! We need to stop having one decent season and then completely changing the way we want to play in search of the 90+ points we need to win the league. Change should be slow, careful and deliberate. There needs to be an acceptance that a period of boring stability is needed before we can really start hunting major trophies. Three of four consecutive seasons of Champions League finishes and small, steady tweaks on the pitch would frustrate the fans - but we've got to stop this cycle.
In fairness to ANY footballer, it must be incredibly difficult to completely change the way you have played for years overnight. Johnny Evans actually alluded to this in his post-match interview following the Burnley game.
Last season, we looked, by and large, to be a fair/good football team. We looked compact, we kept plenty of clean sheets, we carried a goal threat. Most of all, we looked organised.
This season, we look an absolute mess. We've got huge, gaping holes all over the pitch and players popping up in all sorts of unorthodox positions that don't seem to suit them. We don't appear to be a possession team, or a long ball team, or a transition team...its not clear what we are.
I am 100% of the belief that our problems are tactical. I'm sick of hearing about the Glazers and Arnold and Murtough. I have made the point elsewhere, if we were talking about winning major trophies i.e. competing with the Oil Cheats, then yeah, I'd understand the argument that that's going to be extremely difficult without a world class management team.
However, they're not the reason we can't beat Palace, Galatasary or Brighton at home. The squad we have should be more than good enough to win those games and achieve a respectable league position.
For me, the problem is that we've changed too much too soon. OK, so I see the advantages of squeezing up the pitch, of moving full backs into midfield, of having CBs run forward to receive passes, of having a single pivot, of having four AMs occupying the half-spaces to overload the opposition, of having a ball-playing goalkeeper and of having a target-man style forward...but is it a good idea to implement all of those things at once?
What chance do the players actually have of learning that system in what accounts to a pre-season of about 6-8 weeks and then whatever time they get in between the 60-odd matches we play each season?
Would it not have been far, far better to implement these changes slowly, gradually working on one or two things at a time? It's like we're haunted by this spectre of Sir Alex Ferguson, our History and the Oil Cheats dominance of the modern era. We're rushing to do everything, as if we can fix this all in one season.
A full rebuild, which this is, should be considered a 5YR project. Gradually implementing the system we want and slowly buying the players we want, as the budget allows.
The big problem we have is, no manager ever gets to stay for 5YRs because we blow-up, we have a bit of relative success, achieve a decent league finish...and then we immediately rip-off the stabilisers and end-up going straight over the handlebars at 40mph.
We've got to get used to the idea that there's no quick fix to this. Many people say that, but I don't think they really understand the extent of it. For example, we talk about Spurs improvement under Ange, as an argument for the idea that change can happen fast...but all he's done is organise them and improve the spirit, with a few minor tactical tweaks. The baseline expectation is so much lower.
They might have a half-decent season, but they won't win the league...and if eventually IF that becomes the expectation, they'll almost certainly fail and blow-up like we do regularly.
So to summarise - we need to stop rushing! We need to stop having one decent season and then completely changing the way we want to play in search of the 90+ points we need to win the league. Change should be slow, careful and deliberate. There needs to be an acceptance that a period of boring stability is needed before we can really start hunting major trophies. Three of four consecutive seasons of Champions League finishes and small, steady tweaks on the pitch would frustrate the fans - but we've got to stop this cycle.
Yeah I tend to agree with you. Bruno could be dropped with no complaints. I'd love to see Mount given a few games as a 10.
I said in the match day thread, taking Hannibal off was a huge mistake. Bruno was supposed to be binned off at halftime.
True to that it seems supported by this, just seen it now.
Again I say, until our midfield becomes competitive again we will continue to ship goals, concede chances, get overrun etc.
True to that it seems supported by this, just seen it now.
Again I say, until our midfield becomes competitive again we will continue to ship goals, concede chances, get overrun etc.
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I mean that’s a common issue every single manager post Ferguson has faced. They maybe only ever have one player performing well and it’s never consistent and the rest are horrible.
He really needs to make the tough decision of dropping a number of underperforming players. Rashford, Bruno, Onana are genuinely effecting the team negatively right now, I get it that our options are limited but it’s better then just hoping they suddenly start performing again.
It's probably true (I can't be bothered to look at numbers), but RM won no CLs with Mourinho's ultra-counterattacking style, and won much more with Modric, Kroos, Isco as key midfield players (those guys could keep the ball).
It's a stupid point.
That Madrid side had one of the best squads ever and even then, they were competent in possession considering the fact they had Modric and Kroos in there.
They had arguably 11 world class players all over the field. If we replicate that, then possession isn't as important considering how many match-winners are in the side. But again, they were competent in possession too.
If we were to drop all under performing players, we would barely be able to field 11 starters.
Almost funny how people were saying that he is our best manager in post-SAF era. He is in course to be our worst manager in post-SAF era and this season is making Ole/Rangnick season look great in comparison.
I still back him, but I fully believe this is the season our lovely unbeaten in the league at OT when ahead at half time record finally dies. The reaction will be apocalyptic. We're seeing so many negative records under him, just feels right 
When this was said, it was based on fact at the time.
His win/loss ratio was particularly high around the league cup final last season.
Same as how you can now add in the losses ever since and change the script, funny how that works right?
Funny how I almost completely agree with your analysis but want to get rid of this rebuild thinking once and for all instead of reinforcing it.
Don't try to win the title in five years, try to be better than last season every season. Keep changing everything you have to when you see the need for it, including the manager, DoF and other staff as well as players. Which is almost the same as you said just that I do want to include more positions as potentially open for change.
But as you said the key in this is doing a gradual change every time. United tends to write off everything the last manager did and call every of his signings "deadwood" instead of actively looking for a way to take the existing squad and work with that when you change the manager.
We played dogshit for large parts of last season and we’re getting consistently humiliated in away matches. To say that, it was very premature. But then we have seen this happening forever. Every current manager is the best thing ever, and every transfer window is the best we ever had, and every group of players is the most likeable ever. Then the reality happens, and in order, the likeable players become bottlers and don’t play for the manager, then we realize that they are not that good, then we say that ok the manager apparently is not great but who is there to replace him (as in we are replacing Guardiola), and then finally we say that he was shit.
Rinse and repeat.
To be fair, I think fans do this more than the club itself.
The players we bought under him are a huge dissapointment. His football is chaotic and lacks a clear plan or path. The results are absolutely shocking. He fields the same underperforming twats like Rashford and Bruno week in week out. So what can we hope for with him exactly? I don't see much to hold on to. A meaningless cup win last year certainly doesn't do it for me.
Keep seeing posts like this and I don't really understand. You back him but you fully expect things to get worse. Is the backing him because you don't want to admit we need to change or is it just in hope that after it gets worse it gets better?I still back him, but I fully believe this is the season our lovely unbeaten in the league at OT when ahead at half time record finally dies. The reaction will be apocalyptic. We're seeing so many negative records under him, just feels right
I think he's gone in the next month, reflecting on the last wee while.
Not all on him by a long shot but this can't continue. Shocking performances mostly and while there are injuries the defence is unbelievable, midfield too. Records being made for crap-ness all over the shop.
Not all on him by a long shot but this can't continue. Shocking performances mostly and while there are injuries the defence is unbelievable, midfield too. Records being made for crap-ness all over the shop.
I went in 2 footed a few weeks back after a few beers and said he may be the worst manager we've had post SAF. I haven't deviated from that view in honesty.
I mean in theory we could win every other game and just lose one to end the record, so I'm not exactly saying I expect things to get worse. Obviously its bad right now though.
I don't feel at the point where sacking him is our only choice. I really don't, not yet. Last night worried me though. But the alternative option doesn't make sense to me yet.
I am sitting with man who can fix you. He would walk to OT if they call him.
Rashford and Bruno would be sold.
Rashford and Bruno would be sold.
A lot of what’s going on now is a direct consequence of mismanagement for a decade. Further, to have 4 full backs missing and your 2 right wingers is extreme, forcing the manager to play players out of position. Even setting us up differently to sow things up at the back is pretty much impossible with the players missing. This is the reality unfortunately. The last time we were in such a plight was when’s certain Alex Ferguson was manager at the end of the 80’s and we all know how that turned out.
I don't think so. The club signed several dogmatic managers who didn't really fit what was played before instead of more pragmatic managers.
Probably only Moyes and Ole fit the pragmatic moniker.
That's true I guess, but the records are tumbling fast, just like they did since Moyes but these ones are worse.
I can take the losses if we were off it slightly, the other team wanted it more, or we were just plain unlucky, but the way we're losing games is shocking and suggests everyone is out of ideas. It seems like we're just doing more of the same in hope that it's just going to click but teams have worked us out and we're easy to beat, painfully easy for a big team.
The EtH statement to the fans seems to indicate that the Glazers have spoken with him already. He specifically mentioned "the Directors".
What, when and where was this statement.