He is maybe the player I trust the most. He always kept his mouth shut when benched. Just a great professionel doping his job.
Might not be good enough for the starting 11 anymore, but good enough for the bench.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Might not be good enough for the starting 11 anymore, but good enough for the bench.
missed the white text?
The season they had a CB injury crisis they scraped the CL at the end of the season and were awful for much of it whilst still having the nucleus of a title winning team..
They went on 'a run of six consecutive losses at Anfield, following losses to Brighton & Hove Albion, Manchester City, Everton, Chelsea and Fulham, dropping to eighth place by early March'
What the hell is going on here? Big Elanga fan?
That's not Rashford's brother
Just a disgruntled fan that wants Ten Hag out
I don't get why he's filming himself watching the game though, and why he's bothered to put his United top on yet wants Forest to winThat's not Rashford's brother
Just a disgruntled fan that wants Ten Hag out
Seems like a bit of trolling really.You're not answering the question. You said good manager's build squads in readiness for an injury crisis and therefore cope.
As I asked, how did Liverpool build and prepare for theirs and given how prepared they were why did they struggle so much? With less players out than we've had, a better front 3 and a better manager.
You can bring up three injuries for City. It's still nowhere near us. You couldn't really pick a worse comparison. Look at the stats for injuries. They're near the bottom. We're top.
Tik Tok/YouTube kids do that - they call it “watch alongs”.I don't get why he's filming himself watching the game though, and why he's bothered to put his United top on yet wants Forest to win
I’ve seen an increase of United fans hoping results don’t go our way in hopes of it forcing the club to part ways with Ten Hag. I’ve even seen edits of Ten Hag is Al-Qaeda garments. Unfortunate and sad really, but this is the point where we’re at
You’re just contradicting yourself in tje last paragraph.
Good managers suffer greatly when they have 2-3 long term injuries in their squad, let alone 3/4 of the defence missing as well as a couple midfielders and 3 attackers sidelined for different reasons.
People have factually showed you that both City and Liveprool with injuries play like shite and have shite results.
It’s not excuses, it’s just facts that injuries to the senior squad do play a huge role in performance.
The truth is that the squad available since the beginning of the season is a midtable level squad. With a great coach, maybe we would be 5th instead of 9th, I grant you that.
They were top of the PL until new year 2021. They ended the season with a title challenging like run seeing them finished 3rd with 69 points only 5 point behind us. They ended the PL season with total of 9 defeats. In comparison we already had 9 defeats by New Year. Also remember that was a COVID season, and Liverpool coincidentally the team suffering losing out home ground advantage. it Allison also got different injuries during that season. Starting GK unfit and being out injured hit harder on top of injury crisis for the defender, than anything we suffered this season.
When you mentioned their 8th position after they played their 28th game of that season when they received their final defeat of the season, you conveniently evaded to include the point gap of between them and 4th place. It's only 7 points from Chelsea. Why this info is important? Because with this info, we know that teams around them were as inconsistent. They were not that much awful on either end of the season. In comparison, this season is going to shite in whole for us even with our supposed better players. There was hardly any high to hold onto. It took title challenging form, and a manager and team who are capable with proof to do so to save such season, to have belief to go forward.
Do you think we're not losing another PL for the rest of season? Where are we pulling that title challenging like run from, when even at our best under ETH we didn't show the capability to do so? Last season as good as it was not that good. Even ETH now admitted last season we was overperforming, which means our real mean is lower. Why
would it be a good excuse to continue with ETH, when his take on our true level is lower than what we achieved last season? And it takes time for him to progress to be back at last season level with no foundation, identity in our playing style?
Evidence didn't agree. They're not in our level this season, where we're possibly ended up worse than any seasons post SAF, and that's worse than Moyes and Ole/Rangnick season.
All you deluded yourself to think not being at their best but still very much in title race is the same as falling down the table anticipating defeats to almost 15 other teams in the league. Or Liverpool showing two title challenge run of form in 20-21 between the shite run of form and result.
Their injured largely players returned yes? Resulting in the improvement in form.
But while they were out, come on, their results were terrible. Let's not deny facts to pile on ETH further. Six consecutive defeats at home. A record for not scoring at Anfield im consecutive games.
And remember, we are a lesser team than Liverpool were. We're not as good. They still had a front three of Salah, Firminho and Mané. Klopp in charge.
Let's see what our lot do when they've all returned.
Not exactly. They had pretty same players available when they lost to Chelsea, and Fulham their last two draw. The issue was forms. Fabinho, Wjlnaldum, Thiago, TAA, Mane, Firmino... got dropped to the bench then started again every here and there. It's more similar to their last season than just injuries issue: lacking fresh blood when their aging key players can't always maintain top form season after season playing week in week out.
Their home form issue is the reason why I mentioned it was the COVID football behind closed door season. Something they fixed with fan coming back, even when they had a bad like last season.
The bolted part is the whole point of the discussion. A strong team like they had, with experience and ability to string a title challenging like form in both end of season can get leeway to write off that season as a freak odd one out. We're not not the same. We have no assurance of what level we would be at with all our players back with no identity, as well as ETH keeps falling out with other players. Even ETH recently said last season was overperforming in term of result, so after 1 and half season, being worse than last season level is still unacceptable. Last season achievement is not great enough to save a manager job with this kind of low (on the course to be worse than Moyes or Ole/Rangnick season).
Last but not least, ETH is not blameless when it comes to our injury crisis. Just look at how he pushed Shaw whom return from injury. Now Shaw is out injured. Rashford in our last two games looked like playing with injury and tried to continue. Perhaps, his training method is not efficient and physically contribute to our injury crisis?
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Man, it is really desperate to compare to that Liverpool season as there were a lot of peculiarities there :
- First and foremost, covid - empty stands + crazy schedule
- VVD's godlike form in the seasons before allowed them to play their risky game and everything fell apart once he got injured. Hard to name a player as influential as he was for them in the two seasons before that one
- Mental fatigue from winning CL and the league in back to back seasons
Has our season no been peculiar? I'd say there's been one or two off pitch issues you don't normally get as a manager.
I'm not saying injuries are an excuse for everything but we have current and past examples of injuries badly affecting better team than ourselves. Why the need to play that down I don't know.
I think needing to field 9 different center back pairings in a season is definitely peculiar.
I mind us sitting in midtable less than seeing us play bad football and seeing us giving away stupid goals, that is what gets me.
Could've played Varane more whenever he was available. He chose not to.
But he couldn't play on the left....oops!
This is my point. They built a squad to be able to respond to inevitable injuries. This is neither a new or complex matter. I'm not sure what season you are referring to, so please be more specific: last season's Liverpool? prior to that? Please clarify.
We have been rubbish, for a calendar year. Look at us. Inconsistent, unimpressive, lacking any cohesive playing style. And we still, still, still have people talking injuries.
Our squad, the recruitment, player-management and coaching of our squad, has been poor. You think that's down to injuries, then that's up to you.
Who is playing that down. But we were poor a lot of second half of last season. We started season with most players fit and were awful. its not like we became poor only after injuries. And word from OT was a lot of staff blamed ETH for injuries given complete lack of rotation last season and tough pre season. Its also not about results but worst football I have ever seen from us.
The injuries excuse might hold more weight if not for the fact we're consistently rubbish no matter what team is put out. Ever since that league cup final we've played awful football, and we had very few injuries back then. Also most of our attacking players have been fit for a large period of this season and we still can't score. Having a few defenders out doesn't explain that
Overall there is far too much wrong with the team and decision making from Ten Hag, and injuries can't justify just how badly he's got it wrong
Stop fudging. First you introduce the issue of whether an injury is short-term or long-term which is irrelevant because, as I stated, injuries are by their very nature, short-term and long-term, obviously. You ask how Liverpool build and prepare, and then you answer your own question: Better players, better manager. That's the 'build' we are talking about, and is the whole point I'm making. Look at ETH recruitment, player-management and coaching. We have been dreadful, from the end of last season, and throughout this one. Look at our play. Look at it. Inconsistent, without any real identity or resliance, regardless of who has been available. How much further evidence do you need? For example we have scored 20 goals in the league. All of our 'forwards' have been fit for most of this season. So what are you going to suggest, that Antony's off-field nonsense is the reason we're so abject upfront?
As you know, Citeh have had more than three injuries, so I'm not even sure the point your making there. Citeh have Grealish, and sign Doku. Haaland out, Alveraz in. Of course they miss players, but they don't fall apart like we have. They are nine points ahead, scored probably double the amount of goals and breezed their CL group. Rodri was out for a few games, and it affected them. But look where they are now? Not scrabbling for mid-table respectbility like we are.
And yet you still want to compare injuries.
What question have I not answered? Liverpool coped because they have built a better and more resilient squad over a period of time. I have clearly, previously stated this.
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You know people are grasping at straws when they're now referencing 1 season in which Liverpool fell apart without Van Dijk(a season after winning the league and 2 seasons removed from winning the UCL).
If we win the CL and then the league the following season(hypothetically), I think all of us would be disappointed with 1 poor season afterwards because of injuries. That said, the prior success makes it much easier to stomach and you also know with a fully fit squad, it's a title contending team. This is not the case with us again. Our form prior to this season was already poor after the league cup success. And if you're going to cite that as prior success, then standards are truly in the toilet here.
We won the carabao cup and our manager decided to pen an open letter to the fans as if we won the Premier League title or CL title. Seems like some fans on here are the same. It's apparently bought him all the goodwill to currently guide the club to the worst season in our modern day history and still have unwavering support from some of you. We win 1 minor cup and then proceed to crater as a team. Our form over the last 38 league games is horrific. We've got a negative GD in our last 38 league games. There is simply no defending that.
I mean honestly, how do you guys keep inventing new excuses? And before I get hit with the strawman of 'the glazers and the lack of a proper footballing board', the glazers are an issue and our board is an issue, but they're not going to turn ETH into a competent manager. And people on here are missing the point of a top tier board. It's not put in place to support ETH. It supports the club and ETH has to fit into that support and do his job well. @Revan summarizes it well
If we win the CL and then the league the following season(hypothetically), I think all of us would be disappointed with 1 poor season afterwards because of injuries. That said, the prior success makes it much easier to stomach and you also know with a fully fit squad, it's a title contending team. This is not the case with us again. Our form prior to this season was already poor after the league cup success. And if you're going to cite that as prior success, then standards are truly in the toilet here.
We won the carabao cup and our manager decided to pen an open letter to the fans as if we won the Premier League title or CL title. Seems like some fans on here are the same. It's apparently bought him all the goodwill to currently guide the club to the worst season in our modern day history and still have unwavering support from some of you. We win 1 minor cup and then proceed to crater as a team. Our form over the last 38 league games is horrific. We've got a negative GD in our last 38 league games. There is simply no defending that.
I mean honestly, how do you guys keep inventing new excuses? And before I get hit with the strawman of 'the glazers and the lack of a proper footballing board', the glazers are an issue and our board is an issue, but they're not going to turn ETH into a competent manager. And people on here are missing the point of a top tier board. It's not put in place to support ETH. It supports the club and ETH has to fit into that support and do his job well. @Revan summarizes it well
But Liverpool didn't cope. 68 games unbeaten at home, injuries hit, then lost six on the run at Anfield. Couldn't score a goal. Had to make dodgy short term signings. That's the point you keep missing for some reason.
Given you keep drawing a comparison with City's injuries I think you should take a look at the league table for injuries. Look where they are, look where we are.
No doubt even with everyone fit we're not the side we all want to be.
But I've had a number of discussions about injuries and it's amazing how people have convinced themselves it's no big deal.
Even if we did he'd miss a couple games again through injury. He was dropped during the most congested time of the season, so it's hardly likely he'd have survived a game every 3 games without falling into pieces for a few weeks again.
You are just adding irrelevant context to avoid the main point, though. A team in its prime, that was probably the best team in the world, with loads of success in the previous seasons and one of the best managers in the world, fell apart with the sort of injuries we've had.
We are a team in transition, with a new manager and plenty of deadwood and new signings not living up to their price tag, how could you expect us to cope anywhere close to how Liverpool did when the same thing happened to their team?
Liverpool still had one of the best forwards in PL history and a raft of other good players, hot off huge success when this happened to them, the majority of our existing players are either shite or have experienced the mental trauma of being a Utd player for the past 5/6 years
I'm not trying to say Ten Hag isn't to blame for anything, but people trying to brush aside this 'excuse' like it means nothing are living in a dream land.
Real Madrid had an injury crisis that same season too. There were articles about it and everything. But the club only finished 3 points behind the previous season's tally in the league. In the Champions League, they advanced further than in the previous two seasons, making it to the semi-finals. They played Liverpool in the QF and comfortably beat them. Injuries took their toll, no doubt (worse quality, comfortably beat in CL SFs by Chelsea, no titles won), but results were not catastrophic. You can chalk it up to "PL is more competitive" but the CL results are there too. That RM squad was also worse than Liverpool's.
It's not that injuries don't have an effect. They do. But the effect is not so strong and deterministic that "injuries equals collapse". A lot of things go into it. Klopp is not beyond criticism, it is entirely possible that he is a great manager who struggles with handling injury problems.
Injuries definitely impact a team, I think everybody knows this. But I think in the current situation there is more context.
Many have said that EtH can't use his preferred system because players are unavailable, and that's not acceptable. The whole squad should be able to play in it.
It's right to say "we can't play our best football due to injuries", but if you have to say "we can't play the style we want due to injuries", then something is wrong. Many people here don't like how EtH sets up the team and they are right to claim that injuries shouldn't be an excuse for this.
Liverpool's collapse that season was widely criticized and Klopp rightly got a lot of blame for that, including blame for player fatigue after running them into the ground the year before. Teams at this level should be better equipped to handle having 2-3 first team players out, and they usually are. We used to go half a season with Giggs and O'Shea in midfield and still win most our games playing decent football. Injury crises can and will lead to lowering the level of performance but it should not turn a decent team into one of the worst teams in the league by most metrics. ETH cannot be excused for every single failure of his just because someone else coped similarly.You are just adding irrelevant context to avoid the main point, though. A team in its prime, that was probably the best team in the world, with loads of success in the previous seasons and one of the best managers in the world, fell apart with the sort of injuries we've had.
We are a team in transition, with a new manager and plenty of deadwood and new signings not living up to their price tag, how could you expect us to cope anywhere close to how Liverpool did when the same thing happened to their team?
Liverpool still had one of the best forwards in PL history and a raft of other good players, hot off huge success when this happened to them, the majority of our existing players are either shite or have experienced the mental trauma of being a Utd player for the past 5/6 years
I'm not trying to say Ten Hag isn't to blame for anything, but people trying to brush aside this 'excuse' like it means nothing are living in a dream land.
Klopp had earned a lot of goodwill prior to that season though with CL and league wins. Though ETH's fanbase here seems to rate our League Cup win almost on par with these and perhaps even more of a hero story because of our relegation fodder quality across the pitch, so I guess that point is moot.
Your comment on Utd of old is not worth mentioning, the continuity of that setup and winners mindset existing in the club at that time in our history negates a lot of the issues with injuries.
There is a massive difference between having an injury crisis as a well defined, long standing team, and having one as a new team in the building stage, that has chunk of players with a lot of mental scarring from years of mediocrity.
Again, I'm not saying Ten Hag hasn't made bad choices and is performing as well as he should be, but the injury crisis is a massive part of what has gone wrong this season, in my opinion.
You are just adding irrelevant context to avoid the main point, though. A team in its prime, that was probably the best team in the world, with loads of success in the previous seasons and one of the best managers in the world, fell apart with the sort of injuries we've had.
We are a team in transition, with a new manager and plenty of deadwood and new signings not living up to their price tag, how could you expect us to cope anywhere close to how Liverpool did when the same thing happened to their team?
Liverpool still had one of the best forwards in PL history and a raft of other good players, hot off huge success when this happened to them, the majority of our existing players are either shite or have experienced the mental trauma of being a Utd player for the past 5/6 years
I'm not trying to say Ten Hag isn't to blame for anything, but people trying to brush aside this 'excuse' like it means nothing are living in a dream land.
Ah yes, because a team who wins a CL and then a Premier League 'falling apart' in one season due to injuries is equivalent to a team winning a league cup and then having their worst ever PL season due to 'injuries'. If Liverpool 'failed with a better team, then our 'failure' should be expected. No one here is saying we should be top of the table, but we're utterly woeful. 13th in xPTs. Negative GD in the league. Last in an easy CL group. Negative GD in the league over the last 38 or so games. Attacking metrics all in the bottom half of the table. 22 goals in 20 league games. Up there with relegation fodder for goals scored. Zero wins away from home vs a decent side. I mean how do you look at those facts, and still defend him?You guys are all living in dream land. This is the crux of the issue. You're all vehemently trying to defend the 'messiah' that you're ignoring all facts and tangible evidence.
It's not even that we're doing worse than last season. This is the worst season in our modern history and people are just bringing up every possible excuse. Every club has injuries. No top manager(which ETH is not) would manage the car crash that ETH has managed this season.
And the excuse should be brushed aside. We barely scored goals in the league last season and if Rashford didn't have a career best season, ETH is likely without a job at the moment.
He has simply failed at every facet of his job. Are we a better side now than when Ole got sacked? No, we're actually much worse despite the outlay on the squad since then and ETH having 18 months on the job.
Our fanbase is too desperate for another SAF-like manager and some on here probably thought ETH would manage us for 10+ years. Of all the fanbases, this should be the one to understand just how important and pivotal a manager is to a squad. Yet, we're probably the worst collectively in recognizing when a manager is good enough or not. And ironically, the manager that's been defended by the posters most in here is arguably our worst manager post-SAF.
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Even if people tried to brush aside this excuse, you seem to be ready with new ones.You are just adding irrelevant context to avoid the main point, though. A team in its prime, that was probably the best team in the world, with loads of success in the previous seasons and one of the best managers in the world, fell apart with the sort of injuries we've had.
We are a team in transition, with a new manager and plenty of deadwood and new signings not living up to their price tag, how could you expect us to cope anywhere close to how Liverpool did when the same thing happened to their team?
Liverpool still had one of the best forwards in PL history and a raft of other good players, hot off huge success when this happened to them, the majority of our existing players are either shite or have experienced the mental trauma of being a Utd player for the past 5/6 years
I'm not trying to say Ten Hag isn't to blame for anything, but people trying to brush aside this 'excuse' like it means nothing are living in a dream land.
Now it's the players being scarred from mental trauma. I guess only when ETH has a brand new starting XI can we hope to see what he's capable of.
Obviously Antony, Bruno, Onana, Cas etc are getting traumatized at this very moment, so will need to ship them out as well.
Makes me laugh how those of you who do nothing but defend Ten Hag always add some caveat like "he's not totally blameless", yet you blame him for nothing and only seek to think up more elaborate and far fetched excuses.You are just adding irrelevant context to avoid the main point, though. A team in its prime, that was probably the best team in the world, with loads of success in the previous seasons and one of the best managers in the world, fell apart with the sort of injuries we've had.
We are a team in transition, with a new manager and plenty of deadwood and new signings not living up to their price tag, how could you expect us to cope anywhere close to how Liverpool did when the same thing happened to their team?
Liverpool still had one of the best forwards in PL history and a raft of other good players, hot off huge success when this happened to them, the majority of our existing players are either shite or have experienced the mental trauma of being a Utd player for the past 5/6 years
I'm not trying to say Ten Hag isn't to blame for anything, but people trying to brush aside this 'excuse' like it means nothing are living in a dream land.
But surely you can acknowledge that injuries/absences have a knock on effect on performance, outside of a player actually being missing? Maybe our attackers don't perform so badly in front of goal if they had a stable position and some continuity in our attack, maybe the goal keeper doesn't struggle as much if he has a reliable back 4 in front of him to gel with etc.
You guys are all living in dream land. This is the crux of the issue. You're all vehemently trying to defend the 'messiah' that you're ignoring all facts and tangible evidence.
It's not even that we're doing worse than last season. This is the worst season in our modern history and people are just bringing up every possible excuse. Every club has injuries. No top manager(which ETH is not) would manage the car crash that ETH has managed this season.
And the excuse should be brushed aside. We barely scored goals in the league last season and if Rashford didn't have a career best season, ETH is likely without a job at the moment.
He has simply failed at every facet of his job. Are we a better side now than when Ole got sacked? No, we're actually much worse despite the outlay on the squad since then and ETH having 18 months on the job.
Our fanbase is too desperate for another SAF-like manager and some on here probably thought ETH would manage us for 10+ years. Of all the fanbases, this should be the one to understand just how important and pivotal a manager is to a squad. Yet, we're probably the worst collectively in recognizing when a manager is good enough or not. And ironically, the manager that's been defended by the posters most in here is arguably our worst manager post-SAF.
We are obviously pretty shite, but I'm not sure the best manager in the world would have us higher than 5th in the table with what has happened this year in terms of player availability.
Agree that injuries might impact on quality, but there should be some sort of system in place that replacements just slot into.
Maybe the defence will be more stable when they are protected by a midfield setup that sees more than one midfielder defending.
Maybe the inverted wingers will score more when they don't have to hold the width but are supported by overlapping FBs. Maybe the striker would than get better service as well.
These are tactical issues, injuries might make some of this even worse, but still it is something EtH could fix by giving different instructions to the players still available.
A ridiculous injury crisis is not some elaborate and far fetched excuse. I'm happy to blame him for a lot of things, but I also realise I'm a football fan that knows absolutely nothing about management in comparison to the manager.
You sit there watching from the couch and think you've spotted something that he can't see, with absolutely no knowledge of what is going on day to day at the club, what they are doing in training etc.
Do you genuinely think you have figured out things that Ten Hag can't see?
My opinion is that Ten Hag is a good manager, he might not be at the level we need, but he hasn't had anything close to a fair chance to show what he can do this season. The club is in a state of transition overall, and there is no point in sacking him until we are properly set up.
That would also give him a fair chance with a full squad, which would ultimately tell us if he's at the required level, or not.
One bad season does not make a bad manager, our fans just shit the bed every time anything goes wrong and want to move on to the next thing, which clearly hasn't worked for us in the past decade.
It's painful to watch our team at the moment, but there are sparks of the sort of football I want to watch, if we get our starting 11 back together for a number of games and we don't start to see more of it, I'm happy to admit that he isn't the manager we hoped he would be.
Birmingham have higher standards than us.