Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

Should ETH be kept on or fired by INEOS


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JPRouve

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No it’s not. Like transfers and transfer fees are not down to managers. The reason we are hiring all these different professionals is because the conventional idea of a manager has changed dramatically.

They don’t decide who is fit. They don’t decide who joins a club. They don’t personally work on a players fitness. They may have some involvement but they rely moreso on the quality of the people around them to help them be able to focus on managing the players and tactics.

So , no , managers aren’t to blame for players fitness.
Fitness is a component of training, the same way technical and tactical drills are a component of training and not done directly by the manager who delegates those activities after having established training plans with his staff. Physical trainers are subalterns of the head coach, they do things based on his requirements.

And yes managers do decide who is fit or not, based on tracking data and feedbacks from their staff and players, they decide whether a player should be rested or not. Some of you seem to think that managers do nothing, that they are responsible for nothing, they are in charge of no one and staff members are just doing their thing independently.

Now someone could mess up or a player could lie or something unpredictable can happen but a manager is responsible for the fitness of his team, the same way he is responsible for the tactical or technical development of his team including his goalkeepers even if he isn't a goalkeeper coach because it is the responsibility of the staff that he is leading and assembled.
 

Chumpsbechumps

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Fitness is a component of training, the same way technical and tactical drills are a component of training and not done directly by the manager who delegates those activities after having established training plans with his staff. Physical trainers are subalterns of the head coach, they do things based on his requirements.

And yes managers do decide who is fit or not, based on tracking data and feedbacks from their staff and players, they decide whether a player should be rested or not. Some of you seem to think that managers do nothing, that they are responsible for nothing, they are in charge of no one and staff members are just doing their thing independently.

Now someone could mess up or a player could lie or something unpredictable can happen but a manager is responsible for the fitness of his team, the same way he is responsible for the tactical or technical development of his team including his goalkeepers even if he isn't a goalkeeper coach because it is the responsibility of the staff that he is leading and assembled.
Managers are not physios, they make decisions based on information from more informed people. A lot of players at that level also have their own medical team and won’t play if there is doubt.

In the same way a manager doesn’t sign players. I think some of you can only apportion blame to managers for pretty much everything.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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So despite having the worst defensive injury crisis I think we’ve ever had, let’s now view this in the context of what the rest of the leagues like:

Spurs 1.47
Villa 1.40

Everyone else is worse apart from City, Liverpool and Arsenal?

So what exactly is your point here?
My point is that United are, in fact, conceding lots of goals. 1.4 goals per game, which translates to 52 goals in 38 games, which is a lot.

Relativizing these things is often unhelpful. United were 2nd in 20/21 with 74 points, Liverpool were 2nd in 18/10 with 97 points; one performance is clearly much better than the other, because 97 points is "a lot" and 74 points are not "a lot."

Defensive records do not exist in a vacuum. Villa and Spurs are ahead of United on the table and have a much better goal difference, they are conceding more goals they can 'afford' to concede. But they are also conceding "a lot."
 
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Doracle

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Yeah that game was fortunate. But what are we arguing if we count all these games? I accept we've had more than the top teams by way of losing control in games, however lots of teams above and around us have had matches they sucked in. Spurs have had last minute wins of their own, arsenal too.
The point is surely that we’ve looked badly coached all season, with a bizarre structure that allows teams to just run straight through us at will. It was present in that very first match of the season and, 7 months later, we’ve just seen Brentford exploit exactly the same issue. If anything, it’s getting more consistently exposed as shown by the 20+ shots we are getting peppered with each match in 2024.
 

JPRouve

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Managers are not physios, they make decisions based on information from more informed people. A lot of players at that level also have their own medical team and won’t play if there is doubt.

In the same way a manager doesn’t sign players. I think some of you can only apportion blame to managers for pretty much everything.
Physical trainers aren't members of the medical staff, they are members of the coaching staff. You are confusing two things the people that treat injured players which are members of the medical staff and people that develop and maintain players' fitness which are members of the coaching staff.

Players' fitness or physical condition is largely down to conditioning and rest which are key elements of training and are the responsibility of the coaching staff. They are also the ones in charge of monitoring players fitness via tracking data.
 

Sarni

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Fitness is a component of training, the same way technical and tactical drills are a component of training and not done directly by the manager who delegates those activities after having established training plans with his staff. Physical trainers are subalterns of the head coach, they do things based on his requirements.

And yes managers do decide who is fit or not, based on tracking data and feedbacks from their staff and players, they decide whether a player should be rested or not. Some of you seem to think that managers do nothing, that they are responsible for nothing, they are in charge of no one and staff members are just doing their thing independently.

Now someone could mess up or a player could lie or something unpredictable can happen but a manager is responsible for the fitness of his team, the same way he is responsible for the tactical or technical development of his team including his goalkeepers even if he isn't a goalkeeper coach because it is the responsibility of the staff that he is leading and assembled.
Good point. So far we've been told coach is not responsible for training, fitness, motivation, transfers/squad building and even tactics, which begs the question: what is he actually responsible for? If we have other people taking full accountability for all these aspects, it seems he's not really doing much.
 

VP89

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The point is surely that we’ve looked badly coached all season, with a bizarre structure that allows teams to just run straight through us at will. It was present in that very first match of the season and, 7 months later, we’ve just seen Brentford exploit exactly the same issue. If anything, it’s getting more consistently exposed as shown by the 20+ shots we are getting peppered with each match in 2024.
OK, I'm not going to argue against this given the frequency at which it happens is inexcusable.
 

JPRouve

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Good point. So far we've been told coach is not responsible for training, fitness, motivation, transfers and even tactics, which begs the question: what is he actually responsible for? If we have other people taking full accountability for all these aspects, it seems he's not really doing much.
To be clear, I'm not blaming ETH. It's a broader point about managers, in the end it's nearly impossible to pinpoint who is responsible for a bad decision without knowing what everyone said or did in order to take a decision. But the conclusion is the same, as a manager if you follow your staff suggestion and it always end poorly then you need to change things up and change your staff or the way you share or apply information, that's your responsibility.

If you are managing a fleet of trucks and your truck drivers are routinely late, then it's your responsibility to fix it. You don't turn around and state that you are not the one that is late or driving the trucks.

The alternative being that if you are responsible for nothing then you better not take any credit for the good things.
 

Sarni

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I don’t know about new season but I agree he wins a big trophy long before United will if he moves on.
If we count Dutch title then perhaps. He’s never winning a top league or CL.
 

JPRouve

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If we count Dutch title then perhaps. He’s never winning a top league or CL.
Yeah. While it's not impossible I would be surprised if he wins the CL and is the reason behind it, with Ajax since the semi final in 2019, he missed the knockout stages twice and was eliminated in the round of 16.
 

hobbers

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He’s not winning a major trophy in his career :lol:

Eredivisie again at best
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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If we count Dutch title then perhaps. He’s never winning a top league or CL.
He will never win a top 5 league or CL.

People have genuinely deluded themselves on how good ETH is.

It's the only explanation for some of the arguments people use to defend him.
 

Herschel Krustofsky

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I have pinged Erik a link to this thread.

No doubt some of the tactical and fitness related concepts explained in here will be a complete revelation to him. Once he reads, digests and implements the world should be our oyster.

Big things are coming!
 

Sarni

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He will never win a top 5 league or CL.

People have genuinely deluded themselves on how good ETH is.

It's the only explanation for some of the arguments people use to defend him.
There are people who actually fear that he will walk if we don't support him and will get a job at Barca/Bayern instantly.
 

Shark

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You're acting like this is something new for utd. Remember that amazing win at City followed by a loss to West Brom at home the following week under Jose?

Inconsistency is in the DNA of the club.
Inconsistency will be the DNA of any club when you hire around six managers either long past their best, or managers that simply should have never gotten the job. It's quite telling that not a single manager that's been sacked from this club went on to do anything of note.
 

hobbers

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There are people who actually fear that he will walk if we don't support him and will get a job at Barca/Bayern instantly.
Smacks of Rashford's deluded entourage thinking people would buy the links to Barcelona and Liverpool when he was wrangling for a new contract.
 

Maluco

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It’s been obvious for so long now that he can’t set up a team at this level, and now, after an absolute debacle of a CL group stage, we are going to miss out on a 5 team CL to fecking Spurs and Aston Villa.

INEOS have decided to wait on him and persist with week after week of trash football and we are going into a summer with Liverpool, Barcelona, Bayern, and probably Chelsea all needing coaches at the same time.

I really hope their cards are lined up behind the scenes and there are plans in action. It’s a completely unacceptable 18 months.
 

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He will never win a top 5 league or CL.

People have genuinely deluded themselves on how good ETH is.

It's the only explanation for some of the arguments people use to defend him.
This is an interesting thing. There clearly lies a pooling system in football that is not dissimilar to any other hierarchical structure. You start at the bottom somewhere and work your way up. At some points on the journey, you may well be the best of the best in the tier you’re currently at. With that being the case, you are promoted to the next level up; if you’re great, up to that point in time, you may well skip a few rungs entirely. All’s well and good, and eventually you’ll be thrown in the pool with other high achievers who have backstories just as impressive as yours, if not even more so. Now that you’ve edged towards the apex of the sport, a reckoning of what your true level is is upon you - if you’re top of the class or thereabouts in this company, the only level left is CL performance over a number of seasons. The whole time, your jostles for position are being determined; the entire world is scrutinising your every action and determining where they believe you belong. By now, many star turns have seen that as bright as they shine, or once shone, they are indistinguishable from the next star and are looking up at far brighter lights than themselves. Effectively, it’s the end of the road so far as upward trajectory - your race is run and now, the next batch of upcoming stars run the gauntlet you have in their iteration of the rat race.

There have been several ‘ten Hag’s’ before this one. Most come, give it their best and are then on their way where they play out the rest of their career at a level more suited. Most come to the PL with fanfare, but as a proving ground, few get to make it and stick around on their own terms beyond three years - the PL managerial turnover rate is insane. Few get to put their slippers on and cosy up in the big room for a prolonged period of time. Indeed, only 5 managers active have over 3 years under their belt:

1. Klopp
2. Guardiola
3. Frank
4. Arteta
5. Moyes

with Silva and Howe joining the club if they make it through the summer and year, respectively.

The PL tells us few employers are happy with their helmsmen over a prolonged period of time and it shows us failure is more likely than success for the vast majority of once highly promising, upcoming managers.
 

Leftback99

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He will never win a top 5 league or CL.

People have genuinely deluded themselves on how good ETH is.

It's the only explanation for some of the arguments people use to defend him.
The daft thing is it's all based on 3/4 games in the CL 5 years ago (before throwing away a 3 goal lead to an average Spurs side).

No idea why they think he's so good outside of that.
 

JPRouve

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This is an interesting thing. There clearly lies a pooling system in football that is not dissimilar to any other hierarchical structure. You start at the bottom somewhere and work your way up. At some points on the journey, you may well be the best of the best in the tier you’re currently at. With that being the case, you are promoted to the next level up; if you’re great, up to that point in time, you may well skip a few rungs entirely. All’s well and good, and eventually you’ll be thrown in the pool with other high achievers who have backstories just as impressive as yours, if not even more so. Now that you’ve edged towards the apex of the sport, a reckoning of what your true level is is upon you - if you’re top of the class or thereabouts in this company, the only level left is CL performance over a number of seasons. The whole time, your jostles for position are being determined; the entire world is scrutinising your every action and determining where they believe you belong. By now, many star turns have seen that as bright as they shine, or once shone, they are indistinguishable from the next star and are looking up at far brighter lights than themselves. Effectively, it’s the end of the road so far as upward trajectory - your race is run and now, the next batch of upcoming stars run the gauntlet you have in their iteration of the rat race.

There have been several ‘ten Hag’s’ before this one. Most come, give it their best and are then on their way where they play out the rest of their career at a level more suited. Most come to the PL with fanfare, but as a proving ground, few get to make it and stick around on their own terms beyond three years - the PL managerial turnover rate is insane. Few get to put their slippers on and cosy up in the big room for a prolonged period of time. Indeed, only 5 managers active have over 3 years under their belt:

1. Klopp
2. Guardiola
3. Frank
4. Arteta
5. Moyes

with Silva and Howe joining the club if they make it through the summer and year, respectively.

The PL tells us few employers are happy with their helmsmen over a prolonged period of time and it shows us failure is more likely than success for the vast majority of once highly promising, upcoming managers.
Exactly. And one of the issue for people at both extreme of the spectrum is that some think that because you were very good at a lower tier then you are very good at all level while others think that because you are not good enough at the highest tier, you are shit. In my opinion both views are wrong and in the case of ETH I'm 100% sure that he isn't shit, the same way I thought that Moyes wasn't shit, they are just not elite head coaches, they are average to above average ones.
 

Fortitude

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Exactly. And one of the issue for people at both extreme of the spectrum is that some think that because you were very good at a lower tier then you are very good at all level while others think that because you are not good enough at the highest tier, you are shit. In my opinion both views are wrong and in the case of ETH I'm 100% sure that he isn't shit, the same way I thought that Moyes wasn't shit, they are just not elite head coaches, they are average to above average ones.
Yeah. You get to where you get to and I don’t think there’s much wrong with that. What is unique about ten Hag, though, is being so stubborn and obstinate without adapting. What has ended up happening needn’t have for the most part it feels like, and that lends itself to the why’s and what might have been’s given how forced this process seems to have been.
 

OmarUnited4ever

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It pretty much says that in the next paragraph down. But yes, entire - you cannot be high octane on both sides of the ball for extended periods of time as it risks injury, exhaustion and mental fatigue. Without rest possession, players can't clear their heads and compose themselves, which is why it's gut-wrenching to see us have the ball after winning it back and then losing it again inside 6-10 forced, overly vertical passes, only to repeat the same stupid cycle again.

It doesn't take long to break a team playing like that; it doesn't take a team playing like that long before they break down.
100%.

And that's why I hate see us play, the lack of control makes us very vulnerable
 

JPRouve

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Yeah. You get to where you get to and I don’t think there’s much wrong with that. What is unique about ten Hag, though, is being so stubborn and obstinate without adapting. What has ended up happening needn’t have for the most part it feels like, and that lends itself to the why’s and what might have been’s given how forced this process seems to have been.
It's not actually unique, you could say the same thing about Villas Boas, Zeman, Gasperini, Marcelino, Rangnick, Sarri, Bielsa and many others. I would actually say that it is this character flaw that separate them from the top, look at the top managers they are not actually that stubborn, they quickly and easily adapt to new challenges, they may keep foundational principles but they also change things in ways that benefit their new context. The managers that I listed have all done wonders at a very good level but they all hit their heads against the ceiling when they were asked to go up a level and none of them actually adapted their principles in a meaningful way.

Now the thing about ETH is that he has shown pragmatism and adaptability when it was imposed by his hierarchy which tells me that if you twist his arm he can do it but an elite manager doesn't need to be coerced into improving his own approach, it's part of his mentality.
 

Sarni

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Exactly. And one of the issue for people at both extreme of the spectrum is that some think that because you were very good at a lower tier then you are very good at all level while others think that because you are not good enough at the highest tier, you are shit. In my opinion both views are wrong and in the case of ETH I'm 100% sure that he isn't shit, the same way I thought that Moyes wasn't shit, they are just not elite head coaches, they are average to above average ones.
Moyes is quite clearly an excellent mid-table coach capable of getting the best out of limited resources, however he's lacking fundamentals to be successful at the top level.

Ten Hag I think is a fine coach for a dominant team, he could thrive at Bayern back when they were miles above rest of Bundesliga or a Celtic but he won't be winning much in tight situations. Even back in Netherlands, aside from his two knockout rounds against Madrid and Juventus with Ajax, his pattern was mostly to dispose of underdogs and beat teams he should be beating but struggle against evenly matched competition.
 

Tiber

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Poor guy needs to be put of his misery. He will be much happier at Az Alkmaar or wherever he ends up next
 

Shinjch

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Still pretty apathetic on whether the manager stays or goes, but either way the playing staff and conditioning/medical team needs totally uprooted. It has been going on for too long.

They are ok with playing counter attack football, with less intense running in defensive transitions, was the same with Ole. But when they are asked to move to a more progressive, assertive way of playing that requires more physical and mental intensity they just aren't up to it. They can do it for 20 minute spells, but once the first thing goes wrong they pack it in.

We could go back to playing the more counter attack style, but it won't see us win a league title in the next number of years. We need to build a new foundation regardless of who the head coach is.
 

The Corinthian

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He deserves a third season for me. I'd be annoyed to see him go.
 

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It's not actually unique, you could say the same thing about Villas Boas, Zeman, Gasperini, Marcelino, Rangnick, Sarri, Bielsa and many others. I would actually say that it is this character flaw that separate them from the top, look at the top managers they are not actually that stubborn, they quickly and easily adapt to new challenges, they may keep foundational principles but they also change things in ways that benefit their new context. The managers that I listed have all done wonders at a very good level but they all hit their heads against the ceiling when they were asked to go up a level and none of them actually adapted their principles in a meaningful way.

Now the thing about ETH is that he has shown pragmatism and adaptability when it was imposed by his hierarchy which tells me that if you twist his arm he can do it but an elite manager doesn't need to be coerced into improving his own approach, it's part of his mentality.
That’s an excellent point in your first paragraph. I guess what perplexes about ten Hag is switching from something workable with the players at hand to a system that dooms them, and him whilst making us so exposed, it’s become a national talking point.

The second paragraph has one wonder why.