Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

[JPRouve]

That’s an excellent point in your first paragraph. I guess what perplexes about ten Hag is switching from something workable with the players at hand to a system that dooms them, and him whilst making us so exposed, it’s become a national talking point.

The second paragraph has one wonder why.

My guess is that it's based on the bad mix of United offering too much freedom to their managers and United having the means to purchase players from nearly any club. I could be wrong but to me it would be natural for anyone in that situation to consider the idea of executing thoughts that you wouldn't be able to do anywhere else, you have the means to be uncompromising until someone forces you to compromise.

Think about this LVG stated that he believed that United could purchase any player he wanted. That statement has somewhat been brushed under the carpet because people wanted to have a pop at the club but that's one of the daftest and stupidest mindset that you can have, not only because it's removed from reality but also because it tells you that the manager believed that he wasn't going to have make any backup plans or concessions. It's crazy to think it and it's even crazier to state it publicly.

Paradoxically, United needs to be even more stringent than most clubs in spite of having massive revenues and the ability to waste money and time because managers are clearly willing to waste money and time if you don't control them tightly. It's an other thing that SAF or Wenger were absolutely amazing about.

 

[The Corinthian]

Based on what? Pure hope? What if we're in exactly the same position come November?

A few reasons - mainly, fundamentally we could have Pep, Klopp and Ancelotti as our managers altogether, but the only time we'll see some improvement is if the Glazers are gone and we have proper footballing structure in place.

1) With a new structure in place, I think we will have an overarching strategy and more cohesive transfer strategy as well which should mean that EtH can focus on on the pitch play.
2) Some of the players he's playing is because we weren't able to sell or able to buy their replacement - which ties into the style of play.
3) We had a great debut season which shows what he can achieve (and a crap second season which he is responsible for as well), but it shows what can happen if things fall our way.

Edit: I forgot to add -

4) Injuries have derailed us in the first half of the season

 

[mu4c_20le]

He deserves a third season for me. I'd be annoyed to see him go.

Back to Ajax or a team that starts with "Al-".

Wonder how much we would have to pay them to Antony with him

-

They'll downplay last season just to suit their argument, but it's a bad faith argument as by an objective measure and when proper context is applied, last season was a success. They'll also give the Glazers a pass because they don't want to admit the environment they created makes it extremely difficult on managers to do their job to the best of their abilities.

Ah lighten up, its just a joke

 

[UDontMessWith24]

A few reasons - mainly, fundamentally we could have Pep, Klopp and Ancelotti as our managers altogether, but the only time we'll see some improvement is if the Glazers are gone and we have proper footballing structure in place.

1) With a new structure in place, I think we will have an overarching strategy and more cohesive transfer strategy as well which should mean that EtH can focus on on the pitch play.
2) Some of the players he's playing is because we weren't able to sell or able to buy their replacement - which ties into the style of play.
3) We had a great debut season which shows what he can achieve (and a crap second season which he is responsible for as well), but it shows what can happen if things fall our way.

They'll downplay last season just to suit their argument, but it's a bad faith argument as by an objective measure and when proper context is applied, last season was a success. They'll also give the Glazers a pass because they don't want to admit the environment they created makes it extremely difficult on managers to do their job to the best of their abilities. Bad faith arguments are a symptom of ignorance at the end of the day

 

[UDontMessWith24]

-

Ah lighten up, its just a joke

So are your serious posts.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

My guess is that it's based on the bad mix of United offering too much freedom to their managers and United having the means to purchase players from nearly any club. I could be wrong but to me it would be natural for anyone in that situation to consider the idea of executing thoughts that you wouldn't be able to do anywhere else, you have the means to be uncompromising until someone forces you to compromise.

Think about this LVG stated that he believed that United could purchase any player he wanted. That statement has somewhat been brushed under the carpet because people wanted to have a pop at the club but that's one of the daftest and stupidest mindset that you can have, not only because it's removed from reality but also because it tells you that the manager believed that he wasn't going to have make any backup plans or concessions. It's crazy to think it and it's even crazier to state it publicly.

Paradoxically, United needs to be even more stringent than most clubs in spite of having massive revenues and the ability to waste money and time because managers are clearly willing to waste money and time if you don't control them tightly. It's an other thing that SAF or Wenger were absolutely amazing about.

We had to offer that freedom at the time because let's be honest here some of the people in place making football decisions were grossly unqualified, and the owners themselves were known to have forced transfers on their managers. If you think of the shortlist of managers that we were looking at after Ole was sacked, none of them would have come near this club without the promise of being in charge of recruitment, and none of them would have asked for this promise if we had a Dan Ashworth in place already.

Berrada is coming from a club that unfortunately for us is the epitome of harmonious collaboration between manager and recruitment department, and I imagine the plan is build the same thing here.

 

[JPRouve]

We had to offer that freedom at the time because let's be honest here some of the people in place making football decisions were grossly unqualified, and the owners themselves were known to have forced transfers on their managers. If you think of the shortlist of managers that we were looking at after Ole was sacked, none of them would have come near this club without the promise of being in charge of recruitment, and none of them would have asked for this promise if we had a Dan Ashworth in place already.

Berrada is coming from a club that unfortunately for us is the epitome of harmonious collaboration between manager and recruitment department, and I imagine the plan is build the same thing here.

We never had to do it and the fact that they gave it is the proof of incompetence because none of the managers we hired had any track record as good managers, they were all head coaches.

And all of them would have come at United because frankly United isn't actually different to other clubs they joined with the only difference that United gives better wages.

 

[mu4c_20le]

So are your serious posts.

Then why do you still let them pop your blood vessels

 

[Sarni]

A few reasons - mainly, fundamentally we could have Pep, Klopp and Ancelotti as our managers altogether, but the only time we'll see some improvement is if the Glazers are gone and we have proper footballing structure in place.

1) With a new structure in place, I think we will have an overarching strategy and more cohesive transfer strategy as well which should mean that EtH can focus on on the pitch play.
2) Some of the players he's playing is because we weren't able to sell or able to buy their replacement - which ties into the style of play.
3) We had a great debut season which shows what he can achieve (and a crap second season which he is responsible for as well), but it shows what can happen if things fall our way.

Edit: I forgot to add -

4) Injuries have derailed us in the first half of the season

I find the whole ‘he’s bad at transfers but amazing at coaching’ thing a bit weird. He has shown time after time that he’s not that good at setting up the team. If anything he’s done better at transfers and reshaping of the squad than he’s done at actually coaching them.

All he has going for him is a good spell over 3-4 months of last season (largely thanks to Rashford’s purple patch), a League Cup win following an extremely easy run of games and that Liverpool game.

I do however expect him to be there next season and also have a free pass for anything that occurs during that season simply because our standards are possibly the lowest of all Premier League teams.

 

[Rista]

They'll downplay last season just to suit their argument, but it's a bad faith argument as by an objective measure and when proper context is applied, last season was a success. They'll also give the Glazers a pass because they don't want to admit the environment they created makes it extremely difficult on managers to do their job to the best of their abilities. Bad faith arguments are a symptom of ignorance at the end of the day

If last season was such a success then we should have kept Ole because he did it twice and on top of that he's a club legend.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

We never had to do it and the fact that they gave it is the proof of incompetence because none of the managers we hired had any track record as good managers, they were all head coaches.

And all of them would have come at United because frankly United isn't actually different to other clubs they joined with the only difference that United gives better wages.

Do you really think van Gaal and Mourinho agreed to defer to a banker? United was and hopefully is no longer very different to other clubs because it was ran like many American sports "franchises", or in other words a money front under the Glazers. There is no big club in world football that was ran like the Glazers ran United. Not even close.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

If last season was such a success then we should have kept Ole because he did it twice and on top of that he's a club legend.

Vague side by side comparison with no context.

 

[Sarni]

Vague side by side comparison with no context.

It really isn’t. They both took similar teams to virtually the same points tally, the only difference being a League Cup win on the back of an extremely easy run, which for me is of no great importance.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

I find the whole ‘he’s bad at transfers but amazing at coaching’ thing a bit weird. He has shown time after time that he’s not that good at setting up the team. If anything he’s done better at transfers and reshaping of the squad than he’s done at actually coaching them. All he has going for him is a good spell over 3-4 months of last season (largely thanks to Rashford’s purple patch), a League Cup win following an extremely easy run of games and that Liverpool game.

Why have you arbitrarily decided he had nothing to do with by far Rashford's best season as a professional?

 

[Rista]

Vague side by side comparison with no context.

No context needed. You could apply the exact same arguments as to why we should have kept him. "He showed what he could do, give him a chance under proper structure".

 

[JPRouve]

Do you really think van Gaal and Mourinho agreed to defer to a banker? United was and hopefully is no longer very different to other clubs because it was ran like many American sports "franchises", or in other words a money front under the Glazers. There is no big club in world football that was ran like the Glazers ran United. Not even close.

Why not? The Football hierarchy at Madrid, Inter or even Ajax was and still is made of money people when they were there, Oil mogul, bankers or real estate developers. Also United was never run like any American sport franchise, the simple fact that you made that suggestion is crazy. American franchises operate with highly specialized jobs, money and sport people are separate and it's extremely rare to have a structure where the head coach is also the general manager. United was run like it was under SAF which is also not something that was created for SAF but by the Edwards family since at least the Busby era.

 

[saivet]

They'll downplay last season just to suit their argument, but it's a bad faith argument as by an objective measure and when proper context is applied, last season was a success. They'll also give the Glazers a pass because they don't want to admit the environment they created makes it extremely difficult on managers to do their job to the best of their abilities. Bad faith arguments are a symptom of ignorance at the end of the day

It was a good first season but nothing miraculous in terms of the results or the football on display. For the most part out football was pretty uninspiring in my opinion. It was something to build on but not something to get excited about

At best it it's given ETH enough credit in the bank to see through this season in it's entirety.

 

[Rista]

Why have you arbitrarily decided he had nothing to do with by far Rashford's best season as a professional?

Should we then by the same logic blame Ten Hag for one of Rashford's worst seasons as a professional or does it only count when something good happens?

 

[UDontMessWith24]

It really isn’t. They both took similar teams to virtually the same points tally, the only difference being a League Cup win on the back of an extremely easy run, which for me is of no great importance.

Ole had 66 points his first full season with Pogba, Matic and Greenwood with his head screwed on straight. He also did not have to play midweek fixtures every week for almost half the season consecutively.

The teams were not virtually the same, and Ten Hag's first full season was discernably better.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

It was a good first season but nothing miraculous in terms of the results or the football on display. For the most part out football was pretty uninspiring in my opinion. It was something to build on but not something to get excited about

At best it it's given ETH enough credit in the bank to see through this season in it's entirety.

Who said it was miraculous?

 

[KiD MoYeS]

The longer he's been here, the worse we've got. Obviously the players deserve some blame but keeping him for next season is effectively writing off 2024/25 too.

 

[Sarni]

Why have you arbitrarily decided he had nothing to do with by far Rashford's best season as a professional?

When did I say that he had nothing to do with it? Of course he had his input, just like he’s had his contributions in Rashford’s and Bruno’s horrific seasons this year (one of Rashford’s worst and Bruno’s worst).

Rashford is a very erratic player anyway. He had similarly great seasons in 19-20 and 20-21 under Ole, and similarly horrible seasons under Mourinho / Rangnick / Ole.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

Should we then by the same logic blame Ten Hag for one of Rashford's worst seasons as a professional or does it only count when something good happens?

We can blame him from the point of view of the basic nature of professional sports, which lays the responsibility of motivating players on the manager. If you think Rashford's form this season has anything remotely to do with the tactical set up I'm not sure how to help you, whereas I can look at the majority of his goals last season and attribute them to him thriving in the system when it was actually being executed.

 

[Shinjch]

The longer he's been here, the worse we've got. Obviously the players deserve some blame but keeping him for next season is effectively writing off 2024/25 too.

Yea, hopefully this changes with the next manager. But the club has been in the same vicious cycle since Fergie no matter who the manager has been for whatever reason. Needs fixed.

 

[Irwin99]

Poor guy needs to be put of his misery. He will be much happier at Az Alkmaar or wherever he ends up next

When he’s sacked by United, where does he go? He’s got Celtic manager vibes about him.

Very harsh . I could see him going to a team more suited to possession football and where he doesn't need to fit into the 'DNA' of a counter-attacking team. I think that's what's pissed me off about his time here the most: I would have taken two years of 5th or 6th place finishes, like Arteta did at Arsenal, if he'd changed the culture from Ole and Jose's style of football and had shifted more of the deadwood besides Fred and DDG.

I could see him at a club like Dortmund too.

 

[Robbie Boy]

It really isn’t. They both took similar teams to virtually the same points tally, the only difference being a League Cup win on the back of an extremely easy run, which for me is of no great importance.

The other one couldn't beat a ragtag Villareal side in a match when we were clear favourites. ETH had a decent first season but he's been absolutely terrible this season. Ole had 3 seasons to do virtually nothing.

 

[Sarni]

Ole had 66 points his first full season with Pogba, Matic and Greenwood with his head screwed on straight. He also did not have to play midweek fixtures every week for almost half the season consecutively.

The teams were not virtually the same, and Ten Hag's first full season was discernably better.

And his second season is vastly inferior to Ole’s second full season, and even Ole’s first season, all while sorting out the whole midweek game thing before December by getting knocked out of Europe by Galatasaray and Copenhagen.

 

[Shinjch]

And his second season is vastly inferior to Ole’s second full season, and even Ole’s first season, all while sorting out the whole midweek game thing before December by getting knocked out of Europe by Galatasaray and Copenhagen.

Ole did have the same problems with trying to move away from a more reactive and counter attack set up to a more progressive and assertive style with the players though, didn't he?

As bad as his months at the club were results-wise, Rangnick seemed to diagnose the problem with the players.

 

[Sarni]

The other one couldn't beat a ragtag Villareal side in a match when we were clear favourites. ETH had a decent first season but he's been absolutely terrible this season. Ole had 3 seasons to do virtually nothing.

Both have been garbage. ETH had higher highs and by far lower lows than Ole who was just perpetually average.

 

[Irwin99]

Ole had 66 points his first full season with Pogba, Matic and Greenwood with his head screwed on straight. He also did not have to play midweek fixtures every week for almost half the season consecutively.

The teams were not virtually the same, and Ten Hag's first full season was discernably better.

People seem to forget Ole's first season was fecking awful for the most part. We squeezed into top 4 in the last few games of the season IIRC and there was absolute chaos surrounding the club before the signing of Bruno. I think we lost 2-0 against Burnley at home in January and i've never seen OT that toxic. The fact that he turned it around and Bruno was such a success is a big credit to him.

 

[MadDogg]

Why have you arbitrarily decided he had nothing to do with by far Rashford's best season as a professional?

Rashford's best season was 19/20.

He may have scored more goals last season, but his all-round game was far better in 19/20. In fact, in terms of goals and assists per 90 the two seasons were almost identical so last season doesn't even have that advantage.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

And his second season is vastly inferior to Ole’s second full season, and even Ole’s first season, all while sorting out the whole midweek game thing before December by getting knocked out of Europe by Galatasaray and Copenhagen.

Circumstances aside, it sounds like we're in agreement that we're looking at one good season and one bad for ETH. Ultimately ETH is probably going to suffer the same fate for the same reasons

 

[Sarni]

Ole did have the same problems with trying to move away from a more reactive and counter attack set up to a more progressive and assertive style with the players though, didn't he?

As bad as his months at the club were results-wise, Rangnick seemed to diagnose the problem with the players.

Ole was a mediocre manager who had no place at a top club. He lucked into getting an opportunity and then things fell into place miraculously for him to keep the job he should have never got.

 

[MadDogg]

The other one couldn't beat a ragtag Villareal side in a match when we were clear favourites.

Bit harsh to blame Ole for that. We were easily the better team and should have won by a couple of goals, but unfortunately our attackers just couldn't put the ball in the back of the net that game.

 

[Sarni]

Circumstances aside, it sounds like we're in agreement that we're looking at one good season and one bad for ETH. Ultimately ETH is probably going to suffer the same fate for the same reasons

Yes. At our best we reached a higher level under ten Hag but we also had much worse moments than we had at any time under Ole (bar his final weeks which were an utter collapse).

 

[Shinjch]

Ole was a mediocre manager who had no place at a top club. He lucked into getting an opportunity and then things fell into place miraculously for him to keep the job he should have never got.

ok.... I was just making a point around the players more than I was the relative abilities of the manager. Good to know your views on Ole the manager though, I guess.

 

[JPRouve]

ok.... I was just making a point around the players more than I was the relative abilities of the manager. Good to know your views on Ole the manager though, I guess.

Was that issue mainly about the manager or the players? Has Ole ever shown the ability to coach a more possession oriented game?

 

[hobbers]

Ole had 66 points his first full season with Pogba, Matic and Greenwood with his head screwed on straight. He also did not have to play midweek fixtures every week for almost half the season consecutively.

The teams were not virtually the same, and Ten Hag's first full season was discernably better.

Ole's last full season he took the team to a Europa final, got 74 points and second place. Double the goal difference of last season. 9-0, 4-1, 6-2 wins, whereas ETH's team struggles to score more than 1 or 2 even when dominating. And this was in an even more broken structure than ETH faced, since Woodward was still in charge.

So by your ETH logic, Ole is clearly a managerial prodigy and we need to get him back.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

People seem to forget Ole's first season was fecking awful for the most part. We squeezed into top 4 in the last few games of the season IIRC and there was absolute chaos surrounding the club before the signing of Bruno. I think we lost 2-0 against Burnley at home in January and i've never seen OT that toxic. The fact that he turned it around and Bruno was such a success is a big credit to him.

We hit a great run of form during the lockdown period and the execution of what the manager wanted to do tactically was a big reason for it. Ole and Ten Hag may not have the same squad player for player, but if/when ETH goes it will be two managers sacked as a result of players that wouldn't consistently put the effort and work in over the course of a season. That's the nature of things in football as it's their job to motivate players, but the fact that the standards required to play for United have dropped to that level is more concerning to me than the manager

 

[croadyman]

Yet more injured defenders

What is the root cause? Poor rehab? ETH rushing players back to try and save his job? Training programmes?

I also link the looking gassed after 20 minutes into this, as I think this and the injuries are closely linked

I can't believe so many players have suddenly become injury prone. It's completely unacceptable. ETH can now hide behind the multiple injuries excuse

Hangover from last season and the ridiculous number of games? It happened to Liverpool last season after their Europa campaign.

I hope this is getting seriously investigated because it's costing us massively. Imagine if we were competing on multiple fronts?

Yeah and these injuries will probably mean INEOS feel sorry for him and delay their decision until the end of season. By which point scousers will probably have agreed deal for Amorim/De Zerbi and Nagelsmann returns to Bayern. Basically we get left with whatever crumbs are left on the manager table.