Righto. I can already see what is happening getting jumbled. ETH made some pragmatic adjustments after the Brentford game to adapt to what he had. Some of the symptoms are obvious like how De Gea's ball playing responsibilities seemed to stop being an issue. In general there's a ton of pragmatic concessions he had to make to keep the team from getting steamrolled. This is nowhere representative of anything.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I'm sure it was pre planned to sub Eriksen and Dalot to give them some rest. They've played a lot recently and we need them for Sunday.
Unfortunately our alternatives and our backups are nowhere near good enough. If he'd have kept Erkisen and Dalot on and one of em got injured he'd be ripped for that.
It looks like the games this weekend will be postponed due to the Queen's death.
It was like Fred was their defender.
Don't think you need the people here to tell you anything. You can watch any Ajax game from last season and realize how they play is very different to how we're playing now.
Give the man a moment before jumping to conclusions about his style of play.
I don't think the EL performance was an example of that. We mostly did well in the buildup, but were awful in the final 3rd. Whether that was due to Ronaldo's age turning what could be a dangerous attack into nothing, or Elanga's bad passing, or numerous other bad decisions from other players, it resulted in a dull attacking performance.
And I would say that United look more comfortable in possession than they did under previous managers. Every match has periods where the players play more vertical (but on the ground) passes, and escape the opposition press. The same was true for the beginning period of Arsenal, Liverpool, and even against Sociedad.
And I actually do think United look more comfortable beating low blocks, even if just a bit. It doesn't look the same as under previous managers where players would often stand still waiting for some individual to just make something up on the spot to create a chance. The end result might be the same (no goal), but I can definitely see the makings of what you want.
But yes, we do eventually need to see it for longer sustained periods. However, when it does, it won't just come out of nowhere, which is what I think your post is suggesting. I can clearly see differences between the current team and our past counter attacking only teams.
Progress is evident and I'm gonna beat that drum every day. We seem to more assured in passing and playing out of the back, players seem to have more confidence in their every move as opposed to previous years and they seem to know what they're doing. Running, changing positions, opening themselves for a pass. Sure we'll need to be more consistent in possession cause in parts of every game till now we would lose possession for a short period of time but controlling games will come in time. And of course, as it was said, team is still a mess in the sense that besides Eriksen we dont have a player capable of 'stopping the game', slowing it and controlling it.
But as I said, some things are already different, mainly defending but the general play too.
But as I said, some things are already different, mainly defending but the general play too.
I think it's easy to see we are definitely less clueless in build up and final third. Defense is also more comfortable. I would like more control though but I don't know if I should blame Ten Hag when all midfielders and striker tend to lose the ball a number of times
It's a case of trying to do too much at once.
He wanted to give Casemiro, Ronaldo and Fred significant minutes. He also wanted the team to build from the back, Which Fred can't really do and he wanted to press from the front, which Ronaldo can't do either. So he decided to put Casemiro and Eriksen at the base of midfield to help with build up and Fred at 10 to help with forward pressing intensity.
You could see at times where Fred was the most forward player, pressing the goalkeeper while ronaldo was trying to cut off lanes in midfield.
It clearly didn't work out because the end result was a disjointed attack with too many square pegs in round roles.
Eventually he'll need to be ruthless and just cut out players that don't fit the system.
Also, the centre backs were slow on the ball.
Unfortunate result but I still think we looked good, worlds away from the stuff we saw last season. You can see some of the intricate passing triangles forming that we haven’t really seen before.
That said, a Maguire and Lindelof partnership at the back is a bit too lethargic in its passing to be a viable option for many games, and I’d say we’re desperately missing a CF. Ronaldo is starting to show his years.
If we managed to win the game 1-0 you would call it a good performance, but we still struggled to create a lot and were unlucky with the penalty.
That said, a Maguire and Lindelof partnership at the back is a bit too lethargic in its passing to be a viable option for many games, and I’d say we’re desperately missing a CF. Ronaldo is starting to show his years.
If we managed to win the game 1-0 you would call it a good performance, but we still struggled to create a lot and were unlucky with the penalty.
The manager has a big task with Ronaldo. Someone needs to humble the guy in general and for FKs specially. When you get a late set piece and it's a chance of equalizing, there ain't no way Ronaldo should take.
ETH needs to tell him to get the feck as far away as possible from taking any FKs. Too much catering for Ronaldo is not good
ETH needs to tell him to get the feck as far away as possible from taking any FKs. Too much catering for Ronaldo is not good
I agree, Ole would play the same team and make the same subs and expect a different result.
Hopefully ETH can learn from this.
He's allowed to rotate the team and assess his second string team. Im glad he did this in the Europa and not in the PL.
But i hope he learned that some of the second string team is just not up to standard. I agree that he has a tough situation with Ronaldo.
But i hope he learned that some of the second string team is just not up to standard. I agree that he has a tough situation with Ronaldo.
I think the experiments he tried to run yesterday (Fred as no10 and Ronaldo as a footballer) failed miserably. Hopefully this is just a learning curve.
If EtH wanted to show the board that the squad has no depth, then mission accomplished.
You can't control midfield when you have midfielders losing the ball after the first simple pass they attempt.
There is still a lack of quality in the squad, he has improved the attitude, determination and the defensive play of the team but there is no substitute to quality in improving attacking play. Eriksen singlehandedly created a few chances with his vision and passing, but there was no attacker to compliment his endeavors.
Martial returning should help the attacking cause. I hope Antony is good but other than that there appears to be a struggle for our other attackers to sustain pressure in opposing teams final third. Till then we will have to rely on fast breaks and hope other teams don't sit back or prevent our attackers to turn on the break.
Watching that game it seemed the ball just dint stick with our forward line especially in the second half, and it happened too many times for us to have any attacking threat.
I dont know how much more he will be given to spend, but with the expectations at the club he will need more money and to spend it wisely to improve the quality of this team, till then we will be getting inconsistent results.
He has to use Garnacho more, our wings are the weakest and that affects the chances of our midfield of an out ball as our wingers keep loosing the ball or passing it back. Garnacho will take his man on 9/10 times , he might loose it a few times while doing it but when he eventually beats his man he will create a chance for our striker. That's a risk worth taking
The others seem to be reluctant to take on defenders even in 1v1, it slows the play down and it affects our attack and the momentum completely.
The amount of ball that Salah/Diaz, Bernardo/Foden, Saka/Martinelli, Kulusevski have and the number of dribbles/takeons is staggering compared to our wingers.
Martial returning should help the attacking cause. I hope Antony is good but other than that there appears to be a struggle for our other attackers to sustain pressure in opposing teams final third. Till then we will have to rely on fast breaks and hope other teams don't sit back or prevent our attackers to turn on the break.
Watching that game it seemed the ball just dint stick with our forward line especially in the second half, and it happened too many times for us to have any attacking threat.
I dont know how much more he will be given to spend, but with the expectations at the club he will need more money and to spend it wisely to improve the quality of this team, till then we will be getting inconsistent results.
He has to use Garnacho more, our wings are the weakest and that affects the chances of our midfield of an out ball as our wingers keep loosing the ball or passing it back. Garnacho will take his man on 9/10 times , he might loose it a few times while doing it but when he eventually beats his man he will create a chance for our striker. That's a risk worth taking
The others seem to be reluctant to take on defenders even in 1v1, it slows the play down and it affects our attack and the momentum completely.
The amount of ball that Salah/Diaz, Bernardo/Foden, Saka/Martinelli, Kulusevski have and the number of dribbles/takeons is staggering compared to our wingers.
I would imagine that his brief this season would be top four, and a good run in cups, possibly favouring FA Cup, as he will have a good idea of his team by then, who to trust, and who not to, and also possible player movements in January, unlikely, but possible.
I'm a big fan of Ronaldo, but he's certainly struggling for any sort of sharpness, which playing regularly would bring, but could you trust him to deliver, .
We should be able to progress from this group in Europa League, so I'm sure he'll rotate to a certain extent, but we're currently only three points of top spot in EPL, so everything to play for there, so that will be the underlying focus I would think. Our game against City will be interesting next month, Martinez v Haaland. Tasty.
I do think, and I maybe wrong, that he has an idea of making us deadly in transitions. Especially when you have eventually up top Rashford, Martial, Antony with bruno and Eriksen behind then if they all click it would be stupid for teams to leave us space in behind. This would then mean the opposition decide to play deeper which then grants us more posession. In that situation hopefully we will know what to do with the possession we have.
Its all a process, for me I see the building blocks being planted. The reality is our squad was not designed for possession play. When looking at the squad now we have Sancho, Martial, eriksen, dalot, martinez, malacia who can now play that way. But we still need more players who are comfortable with the ball and playing the ball under pressure. Last night was a great example of the difference between Eriksen/Martinez and their replacements. Its night and day their comfortability on the ball.
Look at the players. I think he’ll improve it, but there’s not a big margin. It does leave the question why the midfielder they signed was Casemiro, and they let Nunes etc go elsewhere. Also, without Martial the ball doesn’t hold when it goes forward. Very difficult to get these players controlling possession. They could possibly do it with 3 in midfield where they focus on winning the ball and supplying 3 forwards (like good Liverpool) but then you’d be taking away Bruno as a number 10 (which I don’t think would be the worst thing, but I don’t think will happen).
Definitely agree on the squad not being suitable part. Lots of these won't be here in the coming windows and our possession will improve with time. Is he that coach though in a similar way Pep is
I wish he would favour Garbacho and Zidane over Fred and Elanga
I admit I knew little about ETH before he came to United, but after the first couple of games when he made the changes, I started warming to him, his personal style (never seems to smile) at interviews and his team selection... then came last night 6 changes all at once! If he needs to rest/test players, make 2 or maybe 3 changes, but half the team ... I am reviewing the situation.. (Fagin)
Still early days but I think we are now seeing a division between players who are capable of responding to ETH and improving from where we have been last season and those who for whatever reason are not and just drag us backwards, jury still out on a few, I think ETH is not going to barn storm, those talking about top 4 I think it is hopeful at best, I can see a season or 2 of ups and downs, much as Liverpool had with Klopp to begin with, ETH needs to improve the squad not just the 1st 11, but I am happy that I can see at the least he plays players to their strengths, such a no brainer but so many of our recent managers have not.
Improving/Capable
Rashford, Elanga, Antony, Sancho, McT, Dalot, Eriksen, Varane, Martinez, Malacia, Bruno, Martial
Jury still out
Shaw, Casemiro, Fred, Tuanzebe
Deadweight
Ronaldo, Lindelof, Maguire, DeGea, AWB, Jones
Unless ETH gets some youth through can see that he clearly needs to bring in another striker and CB, I would like to think in Jan but I guess this is unrealistic... although world cup at xmas may do some weird things to normal transfer activity.
Of those who are capable there are still weaknesses, but they are performing at least at a level to be in the squad moving forward (not necessarily 1st 11), those in the deadweight category just need to go.
As good as I think Varane and Martinez have been recently, the Leicester game the other day, I found myself thinking Johnny Evans who was never our 1st choice CB would would still be probably 2nd, 3rd choice in our current crop, and probably would have been 1st choice for many seasons after Rio and Vidic went.... why did we ever get rid of him???
Improving/Capable
Rashford, Elanga, Antony, Sancho, McT, Dalot, Eriksen, Varane, Martinez, Malacia, Bruno, Martial
Jury still out
Shaw, Casemiro, Fred, Tuanzebe
Deadweight
Ronaldo, Lindelof, Maguire, DeGea, AWB, Jones
Unless ETH gets some youth through can see that he clearly needs to bring in another striker and CB, I would like to think in Jan but I guess this is unrealistic... although world cup at xmas may do some weird things to normal transfer activity.
Of those who are capable there are still weaknesses, but they are performing at least at a level to be in the squad moving forward (not necessarily 1st 11), those in the deadweight category just need to go.
As good as I think Varane and Martinez have been recently, the Leicester game the other day, I found myself thinking Johnny Evans who was never our 1st choice CB would would still be probably 2nd, 3rd choice in our current crop, and probably would have been 1st choice for many seasons after Rio and Vidic went.... why did we ever get rid of him???
He's not. Hes a possession based manager in a sense that his Ajax dominated the league as always so it didn't matter what he did.
In UCL, i rarely saw his team had more possession against teams with same or higher caliber. Go check the stat, Ajax had less ball possession than Dortmund & Spurs.
"As always" except for the 3 years directly before he took over, right?
There is a huge disparity between our favoured 11, and the bench, and then further between his signings and the old signings.
This being because the players he hadn't signed aren't currently suitable for his style of play.
Thats the explanation for our stale football and will improve over time.
This being because the players he hadn't signed aren't currently suitable for his style of play.
Thats the explanation for our stale football and will improve over time.
Agree abt the first bolded part. Also I was expecting Eriksen to play no.10 but clearly without Eriksen in the pivot, we wouldn't be able to pass the ball anywhere.
Unfortunately he can't cut anyone cuz they are the rest of the squad.
Don’t get this viewpoint. PL is our priority and we had a match against palace to think about. In that regard, asking Eriksen to play another 90 and Bruno another 90 and Martinez and Dalot another 90 would have been stupid. It’s a squad game an RSO we’re shit. On another day Ronaldo is an inch onside, the header counts and the flood gates open.
This was a necessary evil to get Casemiro 90 minutes, Fred 90 minutes and give Antony minutes.
The issue for me was centre back and centre midfield. First half Maguire slowed everything down and the amount of times he just hoofed the ball instead of backing himself to control it and play out was scandalous. He is a poor footballer full stop. As a result, we couldn’t hold on to the ball…Casemiro was clumsy and looked out of sorts . With Bruno playing further forward and no Eriksen second half we spent so long playing it around the back 4 before inevitably hoofing it.
moving forward Eriksen, Martinez, Varane…most important players for me.
There is just too much crap in our squad. Tough job to get that right
It's the first Europa League Group game. We'll get through even if we lost both games against sociedad. Borderline friendly. He clearly treated it as such to manage the squad.... Didn't expect the games to be called off.
Whilst being an Ajax Cruijff-ian possession nerd, ten Hag is supposedly a bit more lenient and will amend his teams as necessary. I think he's doing this with us, as he lacks the personnel to actually control a midfield.
Still... I'm in agreement with you, I'm surprised he didn't make a proper no.8 our main target. I mean, he did with de Jong, but once it became clear he wasn't available, there was no alternative with a similar skill-set targeted...
Eriksen, Fernandes, + one of Casemiro/McTominay is a decent midfield 3, but they have the glaring flaw of none of them being expert short to medium pass players who control the middle third of a football field. They all suit a counter attack game. Case/McT are ball winners who aren't expressive on the ball; Eriksen and Fernandes are fantastic insightful long passers, but don't run the tempo of a game and instead play very instinctively.
I'd imagine (and very much hope) that a de Jong/Verratti/Kovacic/Thiago style of central midfielder is our next main priority in there.
Extra time off is good for him and us. Time for Martial to recover further, likely no premier league games until after the international break so basically Man City away on October 2nd. A month to train for the City game with the Sheriff away game next Thursday in the middle as well. Mini pre-season to train everyone more.
We still have massive issues. If we had a competent striker , we would have won it. Ronaldo is done. Criminal that we didn't even try for a striker. I mean, any one who could control a ball would have been enough.
Tbf, I wanted to include an illustration but I can't find MS Paint on my new laptop.
Well, excluding Arnautovic.
Anyway - point is: we shouldn't depend on him picking targets (based on personal experience). That isn't sustainable in the long term.
That's fair - of course.
No - I would want the board to consult him, of course. And if he absolutely does not fancy said player, the board should listen very carefully to what he has to say about it.
The point is that United - as a club - should target players according to a transfer/recruitment policy that transcends the current "manager" (or head coach). We shouldn't go for players ETH (or his successor) fancies - we should go for players that fit a certain profile.
It was always going to be mixed for us this season. Some highs and maybe more lows.
We did look pretty flat last night and many members of our squad barely looked fit.
Hopefully this break for the queen can help us in that regard.
We did look pretty flat last night and many members of our squad barely looked fit.
Hopefully this break for the queen can help us in that regard.
Winning games (every game we play) should always be our priority, take each game as it comes, move on from there, that's what builds success. Making excuses for fielding a moderate (squad team) is a 'get out' clause, either for manager who doesn't know his players or his lack of strategy for each game. I've been pleased with ETH's approach so far, and will count last night's (6 as far as we know un-forced) team changes as an aberration.