Our squad right now, not including Casemiro and Eriksen, is arguably better than the one that Ole achieved second with. ETH has been unlucky with injuries (and that Casemiro will miss 7 matches through suspension) but not finishing top 4 this season would be an underachievement.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
What about the one Ole got sacked with? We’ll make top 4 anyway
The Geordies calling someone arrogant, oh the irony.
Newcastle have been trying to force a rivalry with United since the Shearer days. They never got over bottling the league against us.
Why are you talking about 5th? We are by far favourites for 3rd despite a mini wobble of 3 matches. We have 2 home games and then casemiro and Eriksen are back for the run in. I'm not too worried.
We’ll make top 4 as most of the difficult away fixtures are out of the way. Plus there is no convincing challenger for that fourth spot. Having said that, Erik made a strategic mistake in my opinion (not using hindsight) in not putting out a total second XI against Reading in the FA Cup so that we could focus on Carabao (just the final by then), Europa and League. We simply don’t have the squad to push on four fronts, especially when, instead of Ole or Tevez on the bench, we have Weghorst in the starting XI.
The squad Ole got sacked with was worse than the one of the previous year, IMO. So much deadwood one year older, plus Ronaldo. But yeah, let's hope so!
And thats what ETH inherited minus those that left for free.
This. Let’s be positive people, still so much to play for and we’ll have Case, Eriksen and Martial back soon for the run in.
Not sure if it was this thread or another but imagine Man City without Rodri, KDB and Haaland or Arsenal without Partey, Odegaard and Jesus, I think even Man City with all their depth would struggle playing every 3 days too.
Yeah. Other teams have better depth especially in terms of depth that fits the manager's style, others have better starting 11s, whatever. Definitely something to address. We also have an issue unrelated to congestion which is how we do in big away games. That's a collective issue between mentality, ability, tactical set up, etc. But it's also a very select group of games that doesn't really restrict us or impact us from achieving our goals. Everyone struggles in those games. It affects us disproportionately from our average level though, but either way nobody will do well consistently in those games. But we're still on pace to achieve our targets, with plenty of reasons to be optimistic going further. Being favorites for 3rd, winning 1 and maybe 2 or 3 trophies despite using washed Ronaldo and Weghorst as our strikers all season is a pretty excellent season in context.
Well, at least he's won the League Cup.
I wrote to someone else that outside top4 would be a huge disappointment for me. Then you replied but maybe forgot to read first?
Looking back at the post I replied, was replying to you saying doing well in the cups wasn't a measure of progress. You just can't separate league form from how you do in cups. Sure, United could have tossed all cups aside and would be more comfortably in 3rd, maybe end the season with an extra 10 points. Maybe get 80 league points to end the season. I don't think that's fair to say that would be progress despite flopping in cups, compared to us just clearly doing great in cups and still on track for achieving targets in the league. So it is very much still very clear progress, very clearly a successful season.
Bit of a disservice on Martinez, Malacia, Sabitzer, Weghorst, Antony (and Garnacho, Pellestri).
I said that ETH's squad without Eriksen and Casemiro is better than Oles squad in the season we finished second.
Fair enough. In my opinion, it is great that we are still in the cups. But our cup win is not a measure of any progress considering the teams we played. If we want to see progress from the last seasons where we won EL, finished 2nd etc we must improve in the PL imo. Looking at it in terms of results, challenging for the PL title and being a top team in the CL is progress, nothing else. Again, this is my opinion and you don’t have to agree. We reached EL final and finished second two years ago with the players who are now on the bench. We must lift ourselves above that.
I am absolutely not saying ETH is failing. Just I will not call this a success or progress until it lifts us above what we’ve had the last seasons.
If you believe the squad Ole was sacked with is alot worse then the statement makes no sense. Especially when players left before ETH took over. Anyway difference of opinion, I mean you’re listing Weghorst and Pellestri, one is complete shite and the other was signed under Ole
"we return to old habits"... reminds me of Keane's quote on a few of these players that leopards can't change their spots 
. As i've said, it's still not the manager's own team yet and won't be for another few windows.
Interesting that he was critical of the lack of ball recoveries in the opponents half. Sign he wants Osimhen?
. As i've said, it's still not the manager's own team yet and won't be for another few windows. Interesting that he was critical of the lack of ball recoveries in the opponents half. Sign he wants Osimhen?
He can't exactly throw his players under the bus I get that, but the fact he's not only suggesting our playing out from the back is good, he's praising it, anybody can see it's one of our downfalls and invites pressure on us everytime. Even rival players are talking about it, they pressure DDG on purpose because they know what will happen
I said TikiTaka did less high pressing, that doesn't mean I said TikiTaka doesn't have high pressing. I'm not too sure what you are trying to tell me here.
Tiki Taka uses an extremely high line. That means high pressing is used when the ball is lost. I‘m not sure why you are saying it uses less high pressing.
I see some posters questioning the progress under EtH. Whereas they might ultimately be "proven right" in hindsight - and EtH might fail to bring us to next level, there is really not enough evidence yet to seriously question him at this stage (and many of them unfortunately resort to really flawed arguments and cherry-picking). Especially regarding comparing EtH unfavorably with Ole.
Going by results - let us compare like for like. We are a bit under a year under EtH. At the same point in time with Ole we were pre-Bruno and literally midtable (which is somehow often forgotten) whilst playing horribly. And by midtable, I mean literally. We were around 10th at some points in time. Went out at semifinals in all the cups in that season also, so EtH will most likely do better here also.
Regarding the squad - just mentioning EtH signings and not mentioning outgoings is blatant cherry-picking, sorry. Ole had at various points of his tenure the likes of Pogba, Cavani, fit Martial, a not-as-declined Ronaldo, Matic at a similar age to Casemiro at the start, Lukaku, Greenwood, a younger DDG closer to his peak etc etc. And especially if we start mentioning Sabitzer, Wout and Pellistri - we might mention the likes of Lingard, Mata and Pereira then. Yes, some of those players were old, some unfit/sulking etc etc - but EtH literally had both his two key midfield signings injured or suspended/being eased in for the large part of the season, basically no fit strikers etc. Point is, there is no evidence that EtH has a stronger squad, both on paper and in terms of what is available.
The squad stength argument is also good old "shifting the goalposts". Ole was lavishly praised for the 2019 transfer window when we were midtable "at least his signings were good" (check the Caf at the time of you do not believe me) - how does this window look now? (after a few years this actually turned into "oh, those were not his signings"). Notice that I won't credit EtH with transfers here - still early days (and I will actually somewhat criticize some aspects of the transfer policy under him later). We also had serious threads named "let Ole buy a whole new team over 2-3 years and only then judge him". And also the good old hindsight argument - until a year ago Ole was widely credited with "building a good squad for the new manager", where is this argument now? And I must say (also with hindsight and given the struggles of other managers with a lot better CVs) Ole did not do too badly given his profile (whilst being a bad appointment long-term and lost time still). But we have to apply similar standards to our managers, irrespective of whether they are club legends or not.
I agree that some of the aspects of EtH tenure are concerning - inconsistency in performances, stubbornness with tactics/selection (but for me it is mostly his seemingly free reign over transfers which should not continue - e.g. insisting on paying that much for Antony and then having to rely on the likes of Wout because of FFP- this is definitely on him), but so far most of them are "teething problems" to be expected in the first season after having taken over a really underperforming team and dealing with significant injuries & suspensions of key players. Again, he might ultimately fail but comparing him to Ole unfavorably at this stage does not stand to scrutiny, it really does not.
Finally, remember how Klopp and Pep's first seasons were constantly mentioned to put Ole's performance into perspective? Somehow this is also conveniently forgotten by EtH-critical posters now.
Going by results - let us compare like for like. We are a bit under a year under EtH. At the same point in time with Ole we were pre-Bruno and literally midtable (which is somehow often forgotten) whilst playing horribly. And by midtable, I mean literally. We were around 10th at some points in time. Went out at semifinals in all the cups in that season also, so EtH will most likely do better here also.
Regarding the squad - just mentioning EtH signings and not mentioning outgoings is blatant cherry-picking, sorry. Ole had at various points of his tenure the likes of Pogba, Cavani, fit Martial, a not-as-declined Ronaldo, Matic at a similar age to Casemiro at the start, Lukaku, Greenwood, a younger DDG closer to his peak etc etc. And especially if we start mentioning Sabitzer, Wout and Pellistri - we might mention the likes of Lingard, Mata and Pereira then. Yes, some of those players were old, some unfit/sulking etc etc - but EtH literally had both his two key midfield signings injured or suspended/being eased in for the large part of the season, basically no fit strikers etc. Point is, there is no evidence that EtH has a stronger squad, both on paper and in terms of what is available.
The squad stength argument is also good old "shifting the goalposts". Ole was lavishly praised for the 2019 transfer window when we were midtable "at least his signings were good" (check the Caf at the time of you do not believe me) - how does this window look now? (after a few years this actually turned into "oh, those were not his signings"). Notice that I won't credit EtH with transfers here - still early days (and I will actually somewhat criticize some aspects of the transfer policy under him later). We also had serious threads named "let Ole buy a whole new team over 2-3 years and only then judge him". And also the good old hindsight argument - until a year ago Ole was widely credited with "building a good squad for the new manager", where is this argument now? And I must say (also with hindsight and given the struggles of other managers with a lot better CVs) Ole did not do too badly given his profile (whilst being a bad appointment long-term and lost time still). But we have to apply similar standards to our managers, irrespective of whether they are club legends or not.
I agree that some of the aspects of EtH tenure are concerning - inconsistency in performances, stubbornness with tactics/selection (but for me it is mostly his seemingly free reign over transfers which should not continue - e.g. insisting on paying that much for Antony and then having to rely on the likes of Wout because of FFP- this is definitely on him), but so far most of them are "teething problems" to be expected in the first season after having taken over a really underperforming team and dealing with significant injuries & suspensions of key players. Again, he might ultimately fail but comparing him to Ole unfavorably at this stage does not stand to scrutiny, it really does not.
Finally, remember how Klopp and Pep's first seasons were constantly mentioned to put Ole's performance into perspective? Somehow this is also conveniently forgotten by EtH-critical posters now.
Last edited:
Meh we always knew that last year's midfield is not fit for purpose, and last year's squad has a weak mentality. They tend to get lackadaisical after a bit of praise, let alone a cup win. I'll judge Ten Hag by his transfers and early season performance in the next campaign. For now he gets a pass.
Sir Alex used to say that he needs atleast 7 players from the 11, to perform at their level on any given day to win a match. That was at a time when coaching had not evolved to an extent it is today, analysing tons of data to identify micro weaknesses.
Without Casemiro & Eriksen, we just have 5 players who can reliably be counted on to perform most games: DDG, Martinez, Varane, Shaw, Rashford. Others are too erratic and difficult to predict. You can carry maybe 2 such players in the team, definitely not 5-6.
Without Casemiro & Eriksen, we just have 5 players who can reliably be counted on to perform most games: DDG, Martinez, Varane, Shaw, Rashford. Others are too erratic and difficult to predict. You can carry maybe 2 such players in the team, definitely not 5-6.
A technically proficient midfield is paramount to the way EtH wants to play, this is the main reason in my opinion why we are so bad without Casemiro. The gulf in technical quality between Casemiro + Eriksen and the other options isn't minor, it's a drop of a cliff. Of course we need a striker also, but when we are playing out from the back and we have midfielders who can't / won't show for the ball and don't have the quality to receive it in tight areas, our whole playstyle becomes disjointed.
Weghorst dropped today.
Also, he was a free transfer, the Glazers have closed the purse strings and we had to act fast to get anyone to replace Ronaldo. That's on the owners, not ETH.
Last few matches we have suffered from fatigue. I'm unsure what games you have even been watching this season if you can't see a clear style of play.
He's had to cobble this together with a squad that crumbled last season and does not really fit his preferred style of play.
We have had a clear style of play this season, it’s just not been that much different to when Ole was doing well. Obviously Ten Hag has the potential to progress from that though.
Much better with McTominay+Bruno in midfield and Sabitzer pressing up high. Better, sharper performance from players as well.
I‘m relieved the game before was a one-off.
Unacceptable though, as Ten Hag says.
Why are we talking about Ole, we are playing completely different football.
I‘m relieved the game before was a one-off.
Unacceptable though, as Ten Hag says.
Why are we talking about Ole, we are playing completely different football.
Did his Ajax team create and score a lot of goals?
Hope we've seen the last of Wout as a starter. Serious difference in that first half display than what we've seen previous with him in the team. Seen people questioning the Mctominay selection today. Who the feck else would you play when your CDM is suspended and your playing a team with such an aerial threat as Brentford
They had Haller who could score from mulitple areas of oppo's box. Wout simply is not that type of attacker.
Well yes but nothing extraordinary in terms of quantity.
Our attacking play has to improve a lot. We get stuck on the wings too often without an idea of what to do. I‘m sure it is being worked on.
The 119 they scored in 18/19 was quite extraordinary no?
The game before wasn't a one-off, it's happened far too many times this season, some of the players within our squad need to be sold and players with better mentalities, brought in.