Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

[amolbhatia50k]

Liverpool XI: Kelleher, Bradley, Quansah, Van Dijk, Gomez. Endo, Szoboszlai, Mac Allister, Diaz, Nunez, Elliott.

This is the team they went and bombarded City with. It has only 2 players from what you've listed starting with Salah and Robertson coming off the bench. At one time or another, most of those incoming transfers have been deemed: a joke (Nunez); not good enough (Gomez); overrated (Mac Allister); overpriced (Szoboszlai); decent (Endo) with Diaz probably being the one who has been given credit from the moment he arrived. There's just no way the aforementioned in your post can be credited with carrying practically a whole team when it was so sterling with the vast majority of them not there. The players have also, for the most part, arrived within the same timeframe ten Hag has been at this club

They won't be given full credit, given the rivalry, but what they did is out of this world impressive given it's a bunch of nobodies in a patchwork quilt of an XI. It's testament to coaching and the assimilation of the system played that such a thing is even possible. There is merit in the line that Klopp is X amount of years deep there, but you do not need that many years to implement what you want at a club. LVG proved this, transforming us within a preseason when first arriving, and again, having a bunch of nobodies play his system to perfection, promoting kids who had done nothing, and went on to do 'nothing' into his first team plans and cover without a bat of an eye; even Jose did the same, in his own way, having us play exactly how he wanted down to almost a man within a preseason.

Ten Hag might not be excessively long in the job now, but equally, he is not excessively short in it either; by this time, the justifiable reasons why we look like a team who have barely played with one another are simply not there - from the amount of misplaced passes, incohesive build-ups and inability to do anything collectively constructive with the ball (it's a miracle to see us complete any kind of extensive passive chain) we're not just lacking; we're at a point where it's a legitimate and fair ask to want to know what it is that we do in training to look so bad game in and game out. This notion you can only grind and get by when your starters are injured or unavailable is a memo only we seem to have. It's at a stage by now where clubs are objectively displaying that coaching and training is king, with Liverpool's decimated team putting the best of the best to the sword being a new high/low in the in what we can take from the disparity. When is anything we do an astonishing achievement? When do we ever look like a team greater than the sum of its parts? LVG needs to be cited once more given the hilarity and bizarreness of some of the lineups he had playing exactly how he wanted and frustrating PL teams with verifiably better players than what he would field showing what top notch coaching looks like, as well as what it achieves.

The running of any club determines the quality of what a manager gets to work with, and of course, you wish for it to be a harmonious relationship, but coaches show their brilliance by making the best lemonade from the lemons they get to work with - maximising them; optimising them; extracting every sinew from them; making them look like something to be reckoned with, even, leaving you in no doubt that with better players, the trajectory is certain and upward because the same 'trick' will be pulled again in a positive swing - it's games like yesterday's that show what Klopp brings moreso than what his sides look like at full strength; you should have that feeling about your coach more often than not, if he's good at his job; that you're likely to get a premium product no matter what is at his disposal. Results can come in and out of the picture, but overall, the feeling is this guy is getting as much as can be expected from this bunch of players the vast majority of the time.

The feeling should be that no matter whether your eyes and mind likes the product you're watching, there's no question that the coaching is on point and at the higher end of the spectrum, which is what the top coaches get paid to implement. LVG's football might not have been everyone's cup of tea, but at no point in his entire tenure could his coaching itself be questioned. I feel LVG needs to be inserted into this, just in case Klopp is looked at as some kind of freak outlier or 'generational' so not counting in the normal scheme of things. It's all the same. The crux is what their coaching brings to the table in its own right before anything else needs to be factored in.

They’re not nobodies. All of those players are highly regarded. Them being mocked at their rival team’s forum isn’t a great yardstick to go by. Liverpool were missing some players but that team is quite strong so I don’t think this narrative of some miraculous display by Liverpool is correct.

At the same time, I agree with the point on Ten Hag. There’s just been nothing on display from his United team that says he’s performing excellently as a coach. The imprint of that simply is not there. And our rivals consistently show us the standard of coaching (and recruitment and executive quality ) we desperately need.

 

[Fortitude]

They’re not nobodies. All of those players are highly regarded. Them being mocked at their rival team’s forum isn’t a great yardstick to go by. Liverpool were missing some players but that team is quite strong so I don’t think this narrative of some miraculous display by Liverpool is correct.

At the same time, I agree with the point on Ten Hag. There’s just been nothing on display from his United team that says he’s performing excellently as a coach. The imprint of that simply is not there. And our rivals consistently show us the standard of coaching (and recruitment and executive quality ) we desperately need.

Relative to what they were up against, it's a David vs Goliath situation with them having earned appraisal after the fact - you could post that line up at the start of the season and ask what it would be capable of and be met with green smilies abound on here, even if you take the caf factor out of it, it's mostly a bunch of players coming from lesser clubs without much fanfare - hardly a bunch of outstanding talents converging and it only being a matter of time before they explode. We're watching them earn their stripes and become somebodies via performance, which is what's supposed to happen when a good or great coach gets his hands on players.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Relative to what they were up against, it's a David vs Goliath situation with them having earned appraisal after the fact - you could post that line up at the start of the season and ask what it would be capable of and be met with green smilies abound on here, even if you take the caf factor out of it, it's mostly a bunch of players coming from lesser clubs without much fanfare - hardly a bunch of outstanding talents converging and it only being a matter of time before they explode. We're watching them earn their stripes and become somebodies via performance, which is what's supposed to happen when a good or great coach gets his hands on players.

McAllister is a World Cup winner. Slobawhatshisname was highly rated for quite a while. The right back Bradley looks a top talent. Did you think Nathan Ake, Akanji and Stones in midfield would he considered “goliaths”, two years back? It’s better to judge these players based on their quality rather than hype and media / fan narrative.

When we line up with Mainoo now, I have expectations from ETH and our midfield, because he’s a good player even if he’s been promoted or properly introduced to the first team this year.

I get your point about great coaching. Just that we don’t need to caricature everything we witness into an event for the ages.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I get what @Fortitude is saying.

If Ten Hag had to use that 11 that Liverpool did and decided to set up shop(as he likely would), posters here would claim that there's not much he can do with the starting XI.

That Liverpool performance extracted by Klopp is completely impossible if ETH is your manager.

 

[Insanity]

The Liverpool v City game showed us the level we need to get to compete for the bigger trophies. That is our challenge now. If you think ETH can get us there from what he has shown us in his two year in charge, then any discussion with you is a colossal waste of time.

During VG's time, there were many who self-appointed themselves to the role of haughty philosophers and wrote pages trying to get people to defy their eyes on what they were witnessing on the field. I thought those guys were mad. But for ETH, folks have taken a step further and have assumed themselves as professional ETH defenders despite every evidence to the contrary on his suitability to the club. It's Insane!

Player identification and recruitment - Poor
Tactics - Poor
Player fitness - Poor
In-game management - Poor
Squad rotation and management - Poor
Charisma - Zero

There isn't a thing that this guy excels at besides talking horse-shit...eh...eh...eh...Can't wait to see the back of him. Today's game had no bearing on our season, but watching those two battle each other affirmed my belief that he needs to go.

 

[JPRouve]

That's not true at all. We had amazing squad under Glazers with SAF in charge, Liverpool had completely different level of squads under same owner and different managers.

Manager elevates the squad, good one makes even average one looks good. Poor manager makes even the good squad looks average.

Also it's worth mentioning that Liverpool's supporting cast was the same under Rodgers and Klopp, it was the same data scientists led by Edwards and roughly the same scouting department. The difference is that Klopp after a bit more than a year gave up responsibilities compared to what previous Liverpool managers had.

 

[VP89]

You do this thing where you selectively reply to some things and turn blind to everything else that goes directly against your positions - so I'll try to do this in a manner that hopefully makes it easy for all:



Now, again - with all of the above taken into consideration - couldn't it just be the more simple explanation that the manager agreed/insisted on Antony - especially as The Athletic reported the manager was "eager" to sign him - and the club acquiesced, rather than the club didn't present alternatives? They also say he pushed for a swift reunion with Antony, and that his views carry decisive weight.

I mean, you initially said "Klopp has data scientists and scouts to help with his targets and Ten Hag has feck all" - verifiably false. Now you keep saying there wasn't a solution for the right wing presented by the club. Again, verifiably false. Antony was one of three options being considered even before Ten Hag was appointed. The Athletic is also there reporting us exploring Pulisic twice. Can we stop the madness?

A couple of key things here - for all of your own Athletic sources, there are also Athletic sources that I have explicitly shown which state Ten Hag was hesitant to go to Ajax, that Antony was universally agreed and that the budgetary sign off was by him. And you want to ignore all of these things because we suggested Pulisic of all players? A player the club themselves didn't see worth Vetoing Antony over?

Also on the scout and supporting ten hag point, I've already proved how that's true. Again, from the Athletic. I'm not denying that scouts technically held places, I'm saying they never bothered tapping into a scouting network to give him actual proper suggestions.

I suppose one key thing you and I may both agree of is the tone of these articles changing with our form. Yours was in Jan 2023 when we were doing well and sources had no problem talking about how we were glued together and convincing in our transfers.

Mine was later the same year, but from this season, where it all fell apart and the wording was basically that we didn't bother tapping into our scouting database all together. Perhaps this teaches both of us to take even Athletic with a pinch of salt.


And it's less turning a blind eye, and more I don't want to live every minute on the forum being drawn into debates I'm caring less and less for at this stage

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

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Agree with the message but I’m pedantic, Elliot was signed from Fulham.

 

[Telsim]

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Nothing much more to say really. A B-tier coach who had a good Champions League campaign once upon a time that was enough to fool people, including myself, that he is more than he is. Turns out he is a slightly better Frank de Boer. Does anyone think we missed out by not appointing Frank de Boer? Didn't think so.

No time and money to waste on him anymore. It's shaping up to be a summer frenzy for managers, with many top clubs looking for one. The smart of the bunch are already contacting candidates and making headway. If we dither once again, like we are wont to, we really will end up with a choice between Gareth Southgate, Thomas Frank, and Graham Potter. Let's hope these supposed new owners are working behind the scenes on this. The time to act is now.

 

[TsuWave]

A couple of key things here - for all of your own Athletic sources, there are also Athletic sources that I have explicitly shown which state Ten Hag was hesitant to go to Ajax, that Antony was universally agreed and that the budgetary sign off was by him. And you want to ignore all of these things because we suggested Pulisic of all players? A player the club themselves didn't see worth Vetoing Antony over?

Also on the scout and supporting ten hag point, I've already proved how that's true. Again, from the Athletic. I'm not denying that scouts technically held places, I'm saying they never bothered tapping into a scouting network to give him actual proper suggestions.

I suppose one key thing you and I may both agree of is the tone of these articles changing with our form. Yours was in Jan 2023 when we were doing well and sources had no problem talking about how we were glued together and convincing in our transfers.

Mine was later the same year, but from this season, where it all fell apart and the wording was basically that we didn't bother tapping into our scouting database all together. Perhaps this teaches both of us to take even Athletic with a pinch of salt.


And it's less turning a blind eye, and more I don't want to live every minute on the forum being drawn into debates I'm caring less and less for at this stage

The thing about these discussions is you're seemingly never ready to admit you're wrong or even consider said possibility. At least that's how you come across. It's always goal post moving and pivoting. Take for example; the assertion that I'm contesting - and the crux of this exchange - is you stating that the club presented no alternative options to/for Antony. When weighing up the reports available to us - that seems highly unlikely, if not completely made-up.

I'm not discussing our opinions on the quality of said options nor does the fact that the club didn't "veto" the Antony deal over Pulisic really add up to anything. That's what happens with "options" you ultimately decide not to pursue to the very end - the point is; options were there, options were presented and considered - and that's all without mentioning that Pulisic has indeed been more effective for Milan than Antony has been for us, but again, that's an aside - the point is - it goes against the notion that the club didn't present alternatives.

I mean, the recruitment process is detailed in those reports, stating Ten Hag's first steps with scouts and recruitment team, how recommendations come to be, where the empirical data and scrutiny comes from, regular meetings to deliberate pros and cons of targets, the regulars at said meetings, the fact Antony was one of three right wing targets even before Ten Hag was appointed, the weight Ten Hag's say-so has - being referred to as "decisive" (coupled with the emphasis Ten Hag placed on having substantial input on transfers) - isn't the more simple explanation that the manager agreed/insisted on Antony - rather than the club didn't present alternatives?

 

[Sarni]

The Liverpool v City game showed us the level we need to get to compete for the bigger trophies. That is our challenge now. If you think ETH can get us there from what he has shown us in his two year in charge, then any discussion with you is a colossal waste of time.

During VG's time, there were many who self-appointed themselves to the role of haughty philosophers and wrote pages trying to get people to defy their eyes on what they were witnessing on the field. I thought those guys were mad. But for ETH, folks have taken a step further and have assumed themselves as professional ETH defenders despite every evidence to the contrary on his suitability to the club. It's Insane!

Player identification and recruitment - Poor
Tactics - Poor
Player fitness - Poor
In-game management - Poor
Squad rotation and management - Poor
Charisma - Zero

There isn't a thing that this guy excels at besides talking horse-shit...eh...eh...eh...Can't wait to see the back of him. Today's game had no bearing on our season, but watching those two battle each other affirmed my belief that he needs to go.

It is not his job to identify and recruit players, it is not his job to keep them fit, it is also not his job to motivate them and arguably also not his job to prepare tactics where he should at least be heavily assisted by his assistant coaches. All the above means to me is we have not provided him with the scouting team, physios, assistant coaches and motivational coaches that he requires to succeed. He has not failed at anything (in fact he has succeeded at getting us a cup, basically on his own).

Only after we've given him world class people at all these jobs we will be able to assess him.

 

[NLunited]

Strange question seeing as everyone can predict the answers.

Antony, Amrabat, Mount, Malacia, Onana, (Eriksen and Casemiro are obviously duds now too)

And yes I will be including the £8m loan signing, equivalent to paying £40m for him on a 5 year contract, who we know was told United would be coming in for him since the start of the summer.

You‘re struggling. Onana is great, Mount barely has played, Amrabat is a loan, Malacia is a cheap capable backup, Eriksen and Casemiro were great last season.

 

[Yagami]

Thing for me is, whenever we've played a full strength team, I still haven't been impressed by our football regardless so I'm not thinking too much about the injury excuses. This season or last, which might be unpopular as a lot of people enjoyed a good period of last season, but it wasn't for me. Bar the odd game like Chelsea at home this season or Real Betis at home last season as examples. I tried to look at things more optimistically in regards to our performances last year in the hopes that it was just the beginning of our transition into a dominating team, but that was us at our best.

 

[VP89]

The thing about these discussions is you're seemingly never ready to admit you're wrong or even consider said possibility. At least that's how you come across. It's always goal post moving and pivoting. Take for example; the assertion that I'm contesting - and the crux of this exchange - is you stating that the club presented no alternative options to/for Antony. When weighing up the reports available to us - that seems highly unlikely, if not completely made-up.

I dont have the energy to keep going in circles with you, so il just reply to this bit. As I've already mentioned my reference is from a more up to date Athletic deep dive in Dec 2023 which states that there was no real dependency on a scouting database, despite one being in existence. It also said that Murtough only recently collated a full dossier on targets. No shadow targets were actually drawn up to at least serve as a basis.

I've acknowledged Pulisic may have been coined, but my overarching point is that the structure is borderline bollocks, if that's what they can fall on as an alternative after months of compiling their own names.

I think you are very guilty of failing to acknowledge that. You seem to ignore that Ten hag himself was hesitant to go for Antony, that the decision to fall on him ended up being unanimous, that the second choice was ten hag name anyway, and that there was no one at the club being responsible to take a holistic view at squad building.

 

[NLunited]

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Exactly, our club structure has been shiit. We have been making poor decisions for over a decade.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I think we're at the point whereby only 4 or 5 on here are vehemently backing him. I like him, wish it had of worked out, but it hasn't.

Yes, he's faced issues, but he clearly can't get the best out of what he has at his disposal. That pretty much means that he'll never make us genuine contenders.

 

[crossy1686]

I think we're at the point whereby only 4 or 5 on here are vehemently backing him. I like him, wish it had worked out, but it hasn't.

Yes, he's faced issues, but he clearly can't get the best out of what he has at his disposal. That pretty much means that he'll never make us genuine contenders.

His system only works against teams that are far inferior than we are and will miss most of their chances, while we have to have world class players in every position and make sure we score most of our chances. Once we come up against a well organised or just a better team, we get hammered. We'd be dispatched by the likes of Madrid, Bayern, City and Liverpool with ease.

 

[Toshey]

We're and we'll always be at the point whereby it doesn't matter one bit how many back him and how many want him gone in this thread.
Ultimately it's all down to match going fans to show their opinion.
If the stadium applauds the team and ETH, owners will be under the impression that he is supported. If they boo him, owners will know he has lost the fans.
Don't believe that somebody from INEOS will regularly check redcafe.net to see if they should keep ETH or not.

 

[stevoc]

Bookmarked. Thanks for this.

I went through the squads for a few of the games we lost at home this year & we actually had less players injured on those days than the teams we lost to.

The injury narrative gathering such pace & becoming something you can’t discuss/disagree with is a prime example of what happens when misinformation is pedestalled.

We’ve certainly been impacted by injuries but they alone are not the reason our players can’t keep a ball for a few passes between them.

Indeed, missing key players will understandably affect results. But it shouldn't affect team structure and the basics.

We've looked a complete mess all season, we've had maybe 3 decent cohesive performances. You can't blame that on injuries, every player in the squad by this stage should have a decent grasp of how Ten Hag wants us to play.

So either he wants us to play like this or he doesn't know how to get these players, half of which he signed to play anything resembling organised football. In either case it's clear he's not the man for this job.

 

[hobbers]

You‘re struggling. Onana is great, Mount barely has played, Amrabat is a loan, Malacia is a cheap capable backup, Eriksen and Casemiro were great last season.

Nope. You're struggling to justify these signings.

Onana has been better the last few games, but better than terrible is a million miles from great. He cost us CL qualification single handedly and still has a long, long way to go.

"Mount barely has played" - observational skills 10/10 for this one. Meaningless statement.

Amrabat is a loan, yes well done - brilliantly deduced. A terrible and egregiously expensive loan that is a far bigger waste of money than a permanent signing.

Malacia is not a capable backup because he hasn't been available all season.

Eriksen and Casemiro have not played well since February 2023 and have no future at the club.


Groundhog day posters just keep appearing

 

[acid_fuji]

Thing for me is, whenever we've played a full strength team, I still haven't been impressed by our football regardless so I'm not thinking too much about the injury excuses. This season or last, which might be unpopular as a lot of people enjoyed a good period of last season, but it wasn't for me. Bar the odd game like Chelsea at home this season or Real Betis at home last season as examples. I tried to look at things more optimistically in regards to our performances last year in the hopes that it was just the beginning of our transition into a dominating team, but that was us at our best.

Assuming you’re referring to the beginning of the season? Would it makes sense to think that full strength team should play more coherent football after that time they had until now? Obviously depends on how much players were available to train the ideas and patterns of play.

I’m not trying to propose that as an excuse to Ten Hag. Klopp in the second half yesterday made City look like United. Wondering now how much a manager can make player run more because those Liverpool players run jak mad dogs. It’s ridiculous. I never seen our players run so much besides some 20 min spells now and then. Usually at the beginning.

 

[pocco]

We're and we'll always be at the point whereby it doesn't matter one bit how many back him and how many want him gone in this thread.
Ultimately it's all down to match going fans to show their opinion.
If the stadium applauds the team and ETH, owners will be under the impression that he is supported. If they boo him, owners will know he has lost the fans.
Don't believe that somebody from INEOS will regularly check redcafe.net to see if they should keep ETH or not.

Old Trafford won't ever turn on a manager, but the signs are all there that the match going fans have lost faith in him now. Apart from a small pocket of fans every now and then, nobody sings his songs. The atmosphere is flat as a pancake even in big games etc. Nobody believes anymore and I talk to other match going supporters who all have reached the same outcome as me at this point.

 

[AndySmith1990]

We're and we'll always be at the point whereby it doesn't matter one bit how many back him and how many want him gone in this thread.
Ultimately it's all down to match going fans to show their opinion.
If the stadium applauds the team and ETH, owners will be under the impression that he is supported. If they boo him, owners will know he has lost the fans.
Don't believe that somebody from INEOS will regularly check redcafe.net to see if they should keep ETH or not.

Ineos and the new CEO will decide whether to sack him based on the expectations they themselves set. If we're to believe everything Ratcliffe has publicly stated so far, then it's a fact that Ten Hag isn't meeting those expectations. They obviously don't want to rush into sacking him within weeks of taking over, for various reasons. But unless there is significant improvements in the coming months it's safe to assume he's on borrowed time until a more suitable head coach becomes available.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I think we're at the point whereby only 4 or 5 on here are vehemently backing him. I like him, wish it had of worked out, but it hasn't.

Yes, he's faced issues, but he clearly can't get the best out of what he has at his disposal. That pretty much means that he'll never make us genuine contenders.

Yup. And when we talk about so called standards it has to apply to managers too.

 

[Toshey]

Old Trafford won't ever turn on a manager, but the signs are all there that the match going fans have lost faith in him now. Apart from a small pocket of fans every now and then, nobody sings his songs. The atmosphere is flat as a pancake even in big games etc. Nobody believes anymore and I talk to other match going supporters who all have reached the same outcome as me at this point.

I feel there is a last straw of faith in ETH.

OT turned on Moyes. Also I remember fans being pretty vocal against LVG's 3-5-2 by chanting "4-3-3". Also Bruno had to ask fans to boo players aswell, not just Ole.

The doomsday for ETH is this Sunday.
Win against Liverpool at OT and the energy will carry him through the season.
Lose and get knocked out of the cup and I think he could be sacked next week.

 

[Sarni]

I feel there is a last straw of faith in ETH.

OT turned on Moyes. Also I remember fans being pretty vocal against LVG's 3-5-2 by chanting "4-3-3". Also Bruno had to ask fans to boo players aswell, not just Ole.

The doomsday for ETH is this Sunday.
Win against Liverpool at OT and the energy will carry him through the season.
Lose and get knocked out of the cup and I think he could be sacked next week.

He will not be sacked for losing to Liverpool because he's managed to bring the expectations of our fans so low that we now fully expect to lose to Liverpool.

 

[mav_9me]

I think we're at the point whereby only 4 or 5 on here are vehemently backing him. I like him, wish it had of worked out, but it hasn't.

Yes, he's faced issues, but he clearly can't get the best out of what he has at his disposal. That pretty much means that he'll never make us genuine contenders.

Completely agree with this. The argument being made is: to get the best out of this group of players (particularly with the injuries and then with poor recruitment over the years) we'd need to be set up a bit deeper and differently. Which ETH does not want to do as he is working on improving our pressing. Point being he is overhauling our play style and is committed to it and these are growing pains. (The closest comparison for me was arsenal under arteta in his first 2 years). Him overhauling our play style also needs to be aided by proper recruitment which is where the club (including him) has to do better.

Having said the above, I still feel we should be doing better than this, particularly valuing possession more, and not leaving the middle so open all the time.

I am not sure where I fall in between the two pov. I do agree he is not the caliber of Klopp/arteta. In which case do we move on and on until we find a manager of their caliber?

 

[pocco]

I feel there is a last straw of faith in ETH.

OT turned on Moyes. Also I remember fans being pretty vocal against LVG's 3-5-2 by chanting "4-3-3". Also Bruno had to ask fans to boo players aswell, not just Ole.

The doomsday for ETH is this Sunday.
Win against Liverpool at OT and the energy will carry him through the season.
Lose and get knocked out of the cup and I think he could be sacked next week.

I think they were all small pockets of fans again. We've had loads of booing this season but it's at the half time/full time whistle and up for interpretation as to who the boos are aimed at - manager or players.

For the most part there wasn't any vocal chanting or singing against the managers, hell they all still got clapped off win, lose or draw by the Stretford End. Even at the end of their reigns. I don't remember the fans turning on Moyes either and I was there probably every game that season. A few murmurs from small groups here and there but nothing that would force the Glazers hands. I think OT could have had every manager out of the door much earlier if they wanted, and could have forced ETH out by now. But it's almost an unwritten rule not to turn on the manager and have a bit of 'class', even if it isn't in our own best interests.

 

[Stadjer]

He will not be sacked for losing to Liverpool because he's managed to bring the expectations of our fans so low that we now fully expect to lose to Liverpool.

Bring expectations down or just be a little bit realistic? Liverpool worked years towards where they are now and are just a better team at this moment. When ETH signed almost two years ago, did you expect that Manchester United would be able to compete with Liverpool and Manchester City in just the second season?

 

[UDontMessWith24]

He will not be sacked for losing to Liverpool because he's managed to bring the expectations of our fans so low that we now fully expect to lose to Liverpool.

Yes we were on par with Liverpool before ETH got here

Do you happen to remember our two league matches against Liverpool the season before he got here?

 

[UDontMessWith24]

Liverpool XI: Kelleher, Bradley, Quansah, Van Dijk, Gomez. Endo, Szoboszlai, Mac Allister, Diaz, Nunez, Elliott.

This is the team they went and bombarded City with. It has only 2 players from what you've listed starting with Salah and Robertson coming off the bench. At one time or another, most of those incoming transfers have been deemed: a joke (Nunez); not good enough (Gomez); overrated (Mac Allister); overpriced (Szoboszlai); decent (Endo) with Diaz probably being the one who has been given credit from the moment he arrived. There's just no way the aforementioned in your post can be credited with carrying practically a whole team when it was so sterling with the vast majority of them not there. The players have also, for the most part, arrived within the same timeframe ten Hag has been at this club

They won't be given full credit, given the rivalry, but what they did is out of this world impressive given it's a bunch of nobodies in a patchwork quilt of an XI. It's testament to coaching and the assimilation of the system played that such a thing is even possible. There is merit in the line that Klopp is X amount of years deep there, but you do not need that many years to implement what you want at a club. LVG proved this, transforming us within a preseason when first arriving, and again, having a bunch of nobodies play his system to perfection, promoting kids who had done nothing, and went on to do 'nothing' into his first team plans and cover without a bat of an eye; even Jose did the same, in his own way, having us play exactly how he wanted down to almost a man within a preseason.

Ten Hag might not be excessively long in the job now, but equally, he is not excessively short in it either; by this time, the justifiable reasons why we look like a team who have barely played with one another are simply not there - from the amount of misplaced passes, incohesive build-ups and inability to do anything collectively constructive with the ball (it's a miracle to see us complete any kind of extensive passive chain) we're not just lacking; we're at a point where it's a legitimate and fair ask to want to know what it is that we do in training to look so bad game in and game out. This notion you can only grind and get by when your starters are injured or unavailable is a memo only we seem to have. It's at a stage by now where clubs are objectively displaying that coaching and training is king, with Liverpool's decimated team putting the best of the best to the sword being a new high/low in what we can take from the disparity. When is anything we do an astonishing achievement? When do we ever look like a team greater than the sum of its parts? LVG needs to be cited once more given the hilarity and bizarreness of some of the lineups he had playing exactly how he wanted and frustrating PL teams with verifiably better players than what he would field showing what top notch coaching looks like, as well as what it achieves.

The running of any club determines the quality of what a manager gets to work with, and of course, you wish for it to be a harmonious relationship, but coaches show their brilliance by making the best lemonade from the lemons they get to work with - maximising them; optimising them; extracting every sinew from them; making them look like something to be reckoned with, even, leaving you in no doubt that with better players, the trajectory is certain and upward because the same 'trick' will be pulled again in a positive swing - it's games like yesterday's that show what Klopp brings moreso than what his sides look like at full strength; you should have that feeling about your coach more often than not, if he's good at his job; that you're likely to get a premium product no matter what is at his disposal. Results can come in and out of the picture, but overall, the feeling is this guy is getting as much as can be expected from this bunch of players the vast majority of the time.

The feeling should be that no matter whether your eyes and mind likes the product you're watching, there's no question that the coaching is on point and at the higher end of the spectrum, which is what the top coaches get paid to implement. LVG's football might not have been everyone's cup of tea, but at no point in his entire tenure could his coaching itself be questioned. I feel LVG needs to be inserted into this, just in case Klopp is looked at as some kind of freak outlier or 'generational' so not counting in the normal scheme of things. It's all the same. The crux is what their coaching brings to the table in its own right before anything else needs to be factored in.

Are you trolling? Compared to how long Klopp has been at Liverpool, a season and a half is factually speaking an excessively short time.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

We’ve heard how huge games XYZ are for ETH’s future over weeks now. But this is the one, in my opinion

If United lose it and go out, I can’t see Ten Hag as the manager come June at all. And I think this defeat would start United seriously speaking to alternatives

However, as I’ve said already I have a sneaky suspicion that United will pull one out the bag

 

[Robbie Boy]

He will not be sacked for losing to Liverpool because he's managed to bring the expectations of our fans so low that we now fully expect to lose to Liverpool.

This isn't exclusive to ETH, though. Every post-Fergie manager managed to con plenty of fans by talking utter bollox and lowering standards. Managers haven't been held to any decent standards by the fans in near a decade.

He won't be sacked after losing to Liverpool because we're nearly into mid March and it just seems kinda pointless. We literally have nothing to play for barring where we finish between 6th and 7th. This feels like Ralf all over again, in that we play dog shit football every week, but never really seem to move anywhere in the table. The time for sacking him was around the December mark, just like with Jose/Ole.

 

[Redstain]

Liverpool XI: Kelleher, Bradley, Quansah, Van Dijk, Gomez. Endo, Szoboszlai, Mac Allister, Diaz, Nunez, Elliott.

This is the team they went and bombarded City with. It has only 2 players from what you've listed starting with Salah and Robertson coming off the bench. At one time or another, most of those incoming transfers have been deemed: a joke (Nunez); not good enough (Gomez); overrated (Mac Allister); overpriced (Szoboszlai); decent (Endo) with Diaz probably being the one who has been given credit from the moment he arrived. There's just no way the aforementioned in your post can be credited with carrying practically a whole team when it was so sterling with the vast majority of them not there. The players have also, for the most part, arrived within the same timeframe ten Hag has been at this club

They won't be given full credit, given the rivalry, but what they did is out of this world impressive given it's a bunch of nobodies in a patchwork quilt of an XI. It's testament to coaching and the assimilation of the system played that such a thing is even possible. There is merit in the line that Klopp is X amount of years deep there, but you do not need that many years to implement what you want at a club. LVG proved this, transforming us within a preseason when first arriving, and again, having a bunch of nobodies play his system to perfection, promoting kids who had done nothing, and went on to do 'nothing' into his first team plans and cover without a bat of an eye; even Jose did the same, in his own way, having us play exactly how he wanted down to almost a man within a preseason.

Ten Hag might not be excessively long in the job now, but equally, he is not excessively short in it either; by this time, the justifiable reasons why we look like a team who have barely played with one another are simply not there - from the amount of misplaced passes, incohesive build-ups and inability to do anything collectively constructive with the ball (it's a miracle to see us complete any kind of extensive passive chain) we're not just lacking; we're at a point where it's a legitimate and fair ask to want to know what it is that we do in training to look so bad game in and game out. This notion you can only grind and get by when your starters are injured or unavailable is a memo only we seem to have. It's at a stage by now where clubs are objectively displaying that coaching and training is king, with Liverpool's decimated team putting the best of the best to the sword being a new high/low in what we can take from the disparity. When is anything we do an astonishing achievement? When do we ever look like a team greater than the sum of its parts? LVG needs to be cited once more given the hilarity and bizarreness of some of the lineups he had playing exactly how he wanted and frustrating PL teams with verifiably better players than what he would field showing what top notch coaching looks like, as well as what it achieves.

The running of any club determines the quality of what a manager gets to work with, and of course, you wish for it to be a harmonious relationship, but coaches show their brilliance by making the best lemonade from the lemons they get to work with - maximising them; optimising them; extracting every sinew from them; making them look like something to be reckoned with, even, leaving you in no doubt that with better players, the trajectory is certain and upward because the same 'trick' will be pulled again in a positive swing - it's games like yesterday's that show what Klopp brings moreso than what his sides look like at full strength; you should have that feeling about your coach more often than not, if he's good at his job; that you're likely to get a premium product no matter what is at his disposal. Results can come in and out of the picture, but overall, the feeling is this guy is getting as much as can be expected from this bunch of players the vast majority of the time.

The feeling should be that no matter whether your eyes and mind likes the product you're watching, there's no question that the coaching is on point and at the higher end of the spectrum, which is what the top coaches get paid to implement. LVG's football might not have been everyone's cup of tea, but at no point in his entire tenure could his coaching itself be questioned. I feel LVG needs to be inserted into this, just in case Klopp is looked at as some kind of freak outlier or 'generational' so not counting in the normal scheme of things. It's all the same. The crux is what their coaching brings to the table in its own right before anything else needs to be factored in.

Its a very good observation, I don't think this current Liverpool team is anything significant, its reminiscent of Sir Alex dragging the inferior quality team over the line through sheer managerial exuberance.

I don't think Erik will ever win the league at United. He's had a good career but his ceiling is obvious and within an environment as competitive as the premier league is it's going to take a better individual to allow the club to match the ambitions that the new structure is seeking to establish.

Arteta's Arsenal and Klopp's Liverpool are overperforming in retrospect to the quality of their teams in comparison to City.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

Bring expectations down or just be a little bit realistic? Liverpool worked years towards where they are now and are just a better team at this moment. When ETH signed almost two years ago, did you expect that Manchester United would be able to compete with Liverpool and Manchester City in just the second season?

Of course they did because they're smarter than every single football professional that said it's impossible to succeed at United under the pre-INEOS structure. Louis van Gaal and Ralph Ragnik, two of the brightest football minds of our time said this, but why should we take anything they says seriously when we have pocco's brilliant insights

 

[hobbers]

Bring expectations down or just be a little bit realistic? Liverpool worked years towards where they are now and are just a better team at this moment. When ETH signed almost two years ago, did you expect that Manchester United would be able to compete with Liverpool and Manchester City in just the second season?

Liverpool have always been able to compete against United in one off games regardless of how shit their manager was. Even with Roy Hodgson in the dugout and Rickie Lambert up front.

We competed against them in individual games just fine when LVG and Jose were managing. And we even out-competed City in several games under Ole.


This notion that Liverpool and City should just rock up to Old Trafford and score 3-5 goals and everyone just sighs and goes "ah well, expected" is such a sickening loser mentality borne out from having a loser for a manager and far too many gullible fans with no standards.

 

[UDontMessWith24]

Liverpool have always been able to compete against United in one off games regardless of how shit their manager was. Even with Roy Hodgson in the dugout and Rickie Lambert up front.

We competed against them in individual games just fine when LVG and Jose were managing. And we even out-competed City in several one off games under Ole.


This notion that Liverpool and City should just rock up to Old Trafford and score 3-5 goals and everyone just sighs and goes "ah well, expected" is such a sickening loser mentality borne out from having a loser for a manager and far too many gullible fans with no standards.

ETH never got rocked up by Liverpool at Old Trafford. His predecessor on the other hand...

 

[Rista]

Liverpool have always been able to compete against United in one off games regardless of how shit their manager was. Even with Roy Hodgson in the dugout and Rickie Lambert up front.

We competed against them in individual games just fine when LVG and Jose were managing. And we even out-competed City in several games under Ole.


This notion that Liverpool and City should just rock up to Old Trafford and score 3-5 goals and everyone just sighs and goes "ah well, expected" is such a sickening loser mentality borne out from having a loser for a manager and far too many gullible fans with no standards.

Very true. Even when we were the best team in the country by far Liverpool would always give us a good game. Seeing people say recent loss to City was a "good result" does my head in.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Who is this source? He's reliable?

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Sarni]

Liverpool have always been able to compete against United in one off games regardless of how shit their manager was. Even with Roy Hodgson in the dugout and Rickie Lambert up front.

We competed against them in individual games just fine when LVG and Jose were managing. And we even out-competed City in several games under Ole.


This notion that Liverpool and City should just rock up to Old Trafford and score 3-5 goals and everyone just sighs and goes "ah well, expected" is such a sickening loser mentality borne out from having a loser for a manager and far too many gullible fans with no standards.

It's not just Liverpool and City, nowadays it is acceptable to expect a loss against pretty much any half decent team and just explain it away with Martinez being out, or players downing the tools.