F1 2021 Season

Wicked_Badger

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I think Max did not expect Lewis to make a mistake like that, Lewis usually dont do that. And then Max probably never considered that Lewis could run into him damaging both cars so they would have to retire, but as the race were red flagged Lewis could get free repairs and still win. Lewis also relied on not getting a drive through penalty to be able to make the top 5. I dont think Verstappen had considered that every one of these option as it was very unlikely for all of it to happen that way. The irony is that now he has even less margin and has to race Lewis hard to even be in the lead anymore.

Verstappen still needs to race, he does not have a big pace advantage if any at all as its track based which car is better. If he starts giving up position to play it safe Lewis could catch up easily.

I dont think the incident was that big of a deal, if the red flag had not came out, both Lewis and Max would have had 0 points from the race, which I think would have been completely fair considering what happened. If that would have been the case, I doubt there would have been nearly as much drama afterwards.
I think that’s one of the main points people are making about the incident - Max should be aware of putting his car in risky situations given the position he held at the start of that race. It’s something Hamilton has learned and used over the last few years to great effect.

He had far more to lose (and did so) going wheel to wheel racing than Hamilton did.

Fast forward a few years and I reckon he gets out of it and retakes the lead anyway at some point. Or at worst, finishes 2nd.
 

Lightbringer

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I think that’s one of the main points people are making about the incident - Max should be aware of putting his car in risky situations given the position he held at the start of that race. It’s something Hamilton has learned and used over the last few years to great effect.

He had far more to lose (and did so) going wheel to wheel racing than Hamilton did.

Fast forward a few years and I reckon he gets out of it and retakes the lead anyway at some point. Or at worst, finishes 2nd.
This is utterly false and a myth Hamilton fans throw around like a folklore. You can not compare this championship battle with Hamiltons most dominant car era in F1 history. This is a evenly matched car championship.

Lewis had the luxury of having a such a dominant car, he could pick his battles and still win the title with a landslide, Max does not have that luxury, which makes the comparison useless. Lewis could let a few cars pass if he wanted
to and play it safe, he was guaranteed the title anwyays. Max can not afford to give Lewis free points by giving him position with 13 races to go with the cars pretty even matched and Merc that has won the development race for 8 straight season. Its not comparable at all.

In Lewis case every time he has been pushed to the limit he has started making mistakes like running into Albon twice and now this incidicent etc. It was Lewis mistake and he was deemed guilty, it was Lewis who was desperate to win the race in the first lap. What if Max is just spun around and no red flag comes out? Lewis retires on the first lap while Max can take points. By going for a banzai move that was not there Lewis took just as much of a risk. Just because he is trailing a few points in the standings does not mean he has nothing to lose, thats also a bizarre argument. If it goes the other way around Lewis would have pretty much lost the title battle.

Regarding re-taking the lead, how could he do that without risk? Overtaking Lewis is never going to be risk free, especially if you have to weigh in that Lewis like in this case can make a mistake and run into Max - with that in mind every battle with Lewis is a risk and should be avoided, it does not work like that. With Mercs pace Bottas might even have caught up to Verstappen had he let Lewis by, and in that case he would have to concede position to Bottas as well as "Bottas has even less to lose".

I will change my mind when Lewis start letting Max pass on a regular basis in a tight championship like this years. They went touching wheels at a start before as Lewis refused to yield.
 
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oates

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I think that’s one of the main points people are making about the incident - Max should be aware of putting his car in risky situations given the position he held at the start of that race. It’s something Hamilton has learned and used over the last few years to great effect.

He had far more to lose (and did so) going wheel to wheel racing than Hamilton did.

Fast forward a few years and I reckon he gets out of it and retakes the lead anyway at some point. Or at worst, finishes 2nd.
I think people here who are fans of one or the other driver need to recognise what racing in F1 is about and that's not always easy considering some of the processions we watch a lot of weekends.

Also that sometimes when it suits Team Principles their views are different as evidenced by Christian Horner talking after the Spanish GP



apologies for the size of photo, not done for emphasis.
 

Infordin

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Mercedes wanted to paint the picture that their car is inferior but it really isn't. The gap between the teams is more due to the performance of Max relative to Lewis than the performance of the cars.
Yeah.

I would love nothing more than to see Max and Lewis in equal cars before Lewis retires but unfortunately that looks like a mere fantasy at this point.

Max is relentlessly fast and doesn’t have these random off weekends like Lewis had in Monaco. He’s fast around every circuit and in every condition.

Lewis is a more sensitive driver and when the tyres aren’t in the right window or the setup isn’t ideal he’s slow.
 

pauldyson1uk

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The irony of course is that you can easily spot the bias in a Ferrari forum, while simultaneously being completely oblivious to the bias on a British forum like this.
It's a British fourm what do you expect ?
You saying the Ferrari's form is unbiased is quite frankly a joke.
I presume you think Iam biased, I don't know?
Iam a Lewis fan, I don't deny that, I don't dislike Max, I give him plenty of praze, I give Lewis plenty of stick also.
Why you keep on with the baiting,Iam not sure.
We all know you love Max hate Lewis, Msx is God, Lewis is the devil, it's not that cut and dried for me. Both drivers have good and bad points, I 100% disagree that Max is the better driver,he will be but he is not yet.
 

pauldyson1uk

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There was a thread on Reddit which took note of every significant opinion on the Hamilton vs Verstappen incident, namely both current and ex-drivers.

- The majority (60%) thought it was Hamilton’s fault.
- About 40% of people called it a racing incident
- Nobody of any relevance blamed solely Verstappen

And yet you go on Redcafe, Autosport, or any other British forum, and you have a bunch of Brits blaming Verstappen, which is just delusional.
No where on here has said Max was sole to blame.
Most called it a racing incident ,with Lewis mainly to blame.
I my opinion 60/40 Lewis, penalty was about right, maybe airing on the soft side.
But its done, its history, its not changing.
This has been 8 days now, give it a rest, you keep making the same point over and over again.
 
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Rooney1987

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Why is this so laughable?
To suggest an all time great, current world champion and someone who has beaten Max in races this year is not capable of beating Verstappen in equal machinery, is a laughable opinion.

In my opinion I think Max has outperformed Lewis so far this season, we can argue about the speed of the car but I think Max has been more impressive in the hand full of races. Lewis is still world class and has put in a few world class performances this year so to suggest he isn't capable of beating any other driver is ridiculous. It's a embarrassing opinion.
 

Cheimoon

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To suggest an all time great, current world champion and someone who has beaten Max in races this year is not capable of beating Verstappen in equal machinery, is a laughable opinion.

In my opinion I think Max has outperformed Lewis so far this season, we can argue about the speed of the car but I think Max has been more impressive in the hand full of races. Lewis is still world class and has put in a few world class performances this year so to suggest he isn't capable of beating any other driver is ridiculous. It's a embarrassing opinion.
They're also not in equal machinery and at opposite ends of their careers. These comparisons are really hard in F1, and people should probably realize that more when arguing one way or another (i.e., be a bit less assured in their opinions).
 

F-Red

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An interesting interview recently with the former boss of Lotus, Matthew Carter, who basically said Horner's calculation of £1.3m is grossly overstated, and believes he's throwing in sunk costs of design and development, and other operational costs into the figure. When he was the Lotus boss, he was selling rolling chassis F1 cars (essentially everything apart from the engine) for £250k and the only way that Horner could get to that quoted figure would be by throwing in everything to make the car, even though there's costs already accrued to bring the car to the grid.

Ironically he called out both RB and Mercedes that they were constantly throwing away parts that didn't work after FP1/FP2 at circuits when that were far greater than the cost of the accident. He feels the number is a bit more of a push or statement against the cost cap, than anything to use against other teams.
 
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pauldyson1uk

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An interesting interview recently with the former boss of Lotus, Matthew Carter, who basically said Horner's calculation of £1.3m is grossly overstated, and believes he's throwing in sunk costs of design and development, and other operational costs into the figure. When he was the Lotus boss, he was selling rolling chasis F1 cars (essentially everything apart from the engine) £250k and the only way that Horner could get to that quoted figure would be by throwing in everything to make the car, even though there's costs already accrued to bring the car to the grid.

Ironically he called out both RB and Mercedes that they were constantly throwing away parts that didn't work after FP1/FP2 at circuits when that were far greater than the cost of the accident. He feels the number is a bit more of a push or statement against the cost cap, than anything to use against other teams.
Would be interested to see the itemised bill, but that's not going to happen is it.
 

Infordin

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To suggest an all time great, current world champion and someone who has beaten Max in races this year is not capable of beating Verstappen in equal machinery, is a laughable opinion.

In my opinion I think Max has outperformed Lewis so far this season, we can argue about the speed of the car but I think Max has been more impressive in the hand full of races. Lewis is still world class and has put in a few world class performances this year so to suggest he isn't capable of beating any other driver is ridiculous. It's a embarrassing opinion.
His punt at Silverstone was the hallmark of an inferior driver trying to stand up against a superior one.

Reminded me of Rosberg hitting Hamilton at Spa 2014 in an attempt to be “tough”.

Verstappen is the best driver in the world nowadays and everyone can see it apart from the Brits who are still in the denial stage.
 

Rooney1987

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His punt at Silverstone was the hallmark of an inferior driver trying to stand up against a superior one.

Reminded me of Rosberg hitting Hamilton at Spa 2014 in an attempt to be “tough”.

Verstappen is the best driver in the world nowadays and everyone can see it apart from the Brits who are still in the denial stage.
Putting the trolling from the first 2 lines to one side, if you can read you'll see in my post admitting to Max outperforming Lewis. I'd even agree he is the form driver right now. He is world class I don't think anyone says otherwise. No one is in denial expect you and your lack of respect for Lewis by saying he isn't capable of beating Max.
 

pauldyson1uk

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Putting the trolling from the first 2 lines to one side, if you can read you'll see in my post admitting to Max outperforming Lewis. I'd even agree he is the form driver right now. He is world class I don't think anyone says otherwise. No one is in denial expect you and your lack of respect for Lewis by saying he isn't capable of beating Max.
Exactly what I think, you hit the nail in your first line,well 3rd word actually.
 

Fluctuation0161

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You keep saying this and it's quite hilarious when you at the same time mention an incident where Hamilton was the overly aggressive one who went into a corner too fast on an unviable inside line causing him to miss the apex and hit the rear of the car on the racing line ahead and sent said car flying into the wall. And yes, Hamilton was predominantly at fault. Not Max. They're not equally at fault though the massive defence of Hamilton and sometimes even blatant blaming of Max would make it seem otherwise.
No, I was mentioning the fact that Verstappen has had more penalty points than Lewis since 2015. I was replying to a poster who asked, why...
 

Fluctuation0161

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To suggest an all time great, current world champion and someone who has beaten Max in races this year is not capable of beating Verstappen in equal machinery, is a laughable opinion.

In my opinion I think Max has outperformed Lewis so far this season, we can argue about the speed of the car but I think Max has been more impressive in the hand full of races. Lewis is still world class and has put in a few world class performances this year so to suggest he isn't capable of beating any other driver is ridiculous. It's a embarrassing opinion.
Exactly.

You know it's bad when posters are asking why their opinion is laughable. Beyond comprehension.

Like others have posted I think when Lewis retires, Max will be in prime position to take over the crown. He is a good driver.
 

oates

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Red Bull gives him whinge.

Horner can't have it both ways, he's happy to see Verstappen do it. Mark Hughes knows what he is talking about.

I want to see a break down of these losses because that figure of £1.3m sounds like bullshit, he's looking to get some sort of relief and maybe it's possible to hide some other funding for development during this cap.
 

pauldyson1uk

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Lets get off the Lewis v Max, but this one is is not much less controversial.


Saudi Arabia will host its very first Grand Prix in December of this year, but F1 could return to Jeddah just months later if the venue takes over Melbourne's tentative early 2022 slot.
This year's Australian Grand Prix, which was canceled in 2020 following the onslaught of the Covid pandemic, was pushed back to late November and then canceled again as the country projected that its border controls and travel restrictions would still be in force come next fall.

Melbourne's organisers are hopeful of finally returning their event to the calendar in 2022, but shifting the race towards the end of the season would likely eliminate the risk of disruption as the coronavirus crisis will have hopefully subsided by then.

With F1's 2022 season expected to start once again in Bahrain, it would make logistical sense to slot in Jeddah after Sakhir, with F1 therefore kicking off its campaign with two rounds of racing in the Middle East.

The plan is being promoted by the chairman of the Saudi Automobile and Motorcycle Federation, Prince Khalid Bin Sultan Al Faisal.

"For us as a promoter we prefer not to be the last races," he said, quoted by Motorsport.com.

"Teams can do good really in the first races and then the other races have become not so interesting, as a promoter.

"We wanted to have race in the beginning [of the season] but in the time we had to do the work for the track and prepare the track, we couldn't have a race in 2021 at the beginning of the year.

"Our decision was to have a race at the end of 2021, or [wait to] have an early race in 2022. Our decision was we wanted the race in 2021.

"So we are now discussing with F1 about what is best for us to have our race in 2022, and hopefully we can get to an agreement."


Finally, Saudi Arabia has expressed an interest in hosting F1's third Sprint Qualifying trial. F1 rolled out the new format at Silverstone and the concept will be tested a second time at Monza.

"I was there in Silverstone last weekend and I really enjoyed it as a spectator and as a promoter," said Prince Khalid.

"I think it's good. You have more races to see, more action on Saturday. We would love to be one of the countries that had the sprint race.

"The decision now is F1's and we will see. Is it going to be another country, with three countries in Europe, or will the Middle East will be one of them? I would love to see it in Saudi."
 

Abizzz

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FFS Red Bull still at it.
This is ridiculous, does RB not believe in racing anymore?? I wonder if all the previous incidents cause by max can be review again, oh no sorry, I was young and future world champion!! Also, red bull advising what the damage costed was shameful!!
Did you honestly expect anything different from Red Bull? They have no shame and would have used Max's death to sell drinks would that have happened. They use any tool available.
 

pauldyson1uk

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Did you honestly expect anything different from Red Bull? They have no shame and would have used Max's death to sell drinks would that have happened. They use any tool available.
No I did not to be honest, Horner is turning RB in to a bit of a joke.
How funny would it be if they decided that the penalty was too harsh HA HA, but I am sure that Horner and Co will be after a DQ for Lewis
 

Abizzz

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No I did not to be honest, Horner is turning RB in to a bit of a joke.
How funny would it be if they decided that the penalty was too harsh HA HA, but I am sure that Horner and Co will be after a DQ for Lewis
In my opinion it was a 50/50 but so far only 1 driver has been punished. I'd say a 10 place penalty next starting grid should equal the 10s Lewis got :cool:
 

sewey89

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I think they're doing this to try and build a narrative into the next race. Whether that be mind games from RB to Merc/Lewis or whether it's in the event that Lewis is under investigation again, maybe the stewards will be harsher than they perhaps could/should be?

Maybe it's just another example of them trying to appease Max and 'protect their man'

Either way, it's a bit pathetic. We've seen since it happened that the crash is so subjective regards who is completely to blame and I can't see the stewards having anything like enough evidence to make a new ruling
 

sewey89

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In my opinion it was a 50/50 but so far only 1 driver has been punished. I'd say a 10 place penalty next starting grid should equal the 10s Lewis got :cool:
10 mile penalty. Max has to start the race by driving 10 miles in the wrong direction, before he turns around and drives back to the start line to begin his race. In the interest of continuity, he is limited to 10 mph for the duration of his penalty.
 

ArjenIsM3

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No I did not to be honest, Horner is turning RB in to a bit of a joke.
How funny would it be if they decided that the penalty was too harsh HA HA, but I am sure that Horner and Co will be after a DQ for Lewis
I doubt they're now going to say "we fecked up, it was actually Max's fault" but even if they do there's hardly any risk for Red Bull so obviously they're going to try something given they feel they've been hard done by. It's up to the stewards to assess the appeal. Don't really get the meltdown on here given how sure most on here were that Lewis was innocent and it was just a racing incident.
 

Buster15

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No I did not to be honest, Horner is turning RB in to a bit of a joke.
How funny would it be if they decided that the penalty was too harsh HA HA, but I am sure that Horner and Co will be after a DQ for Lewis
All this is becoming rather silly and childish. I am very disappointed in RB but I guess I should have expected it.
By doing this, whatever the outcome, they are certainly making themselves highly unpopular. I am hopeful that the FIA will not change the initial decision, which I still believe was very harsh. Time to move on Mr Horner. And remember. What goes around comes around to bite you in the backside.
 

pauldyson1uk

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I doubt they're now going to say "we fecked up, it was actually Max's fault" but even if they do there's hardly any risk for Red Bull so obviously they're going to try something given they feel they've been hard done by. It's up to the stewards to assess the appeal. Don't really get the meltdown on here given how sure most on here were that Lewis was innocent and it was just a racing incident.
No they wont and it would be wrong if they did, my post was more tounge in cheek to be honest.
 

Rooney1987

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This surely will have a bad effect on RB and I can't see Merc sitting down and taking this. These seems the sort of thing that would piss off Toto. I can imagine Brackley has had a phone call or 2, feck next year lets destroy this lot now.
 

oates

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The Stewards didn't penalise Verstappen at the time.
 

oates

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I think they should review his multiple changes of direction.
It's possible they viewed a DNF as all the penalty he needed but if they are going to get a second bite at the cherry...
 

Adam-Utd

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I’ll just leave this here

Absolutely brilliant. I wish somebody would show this to Horner.

Red Bull are making themselves look very silly right now. All this distraction is going to make it worse for Verstappen IMO, they could end up bottling this title.