F1 2021 Season

[Infordin]

The same Kovalainen who didn't get a single podium in the same car, even in the second half of the season. The upgrades made Mclaren compete to a certain level, it was still inferior to RB and Brawn. First half was all time McLaren bad. Brawn and RB still 14 wins over all races. Fact Lewis got 5th when his team mate was nowhere to be seen, a couple of poles and wins against 2 dominant cars in easily comparable to Max in 2019.

Albon and Gasly didn’t get a single podium in 2019 either while Verstappen won 3 races and 9 podiums. Verstappen ended the season 3rd, ahead of two drivers (Leclerc and Vettel) who had a stronger car overall.

Anyway, neither of those seasons even comes close to Senna 1993 or Schumacher 1997.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Albon and Gasly didn’t get a single podium in 2019 either while Verstappen won 3 races and 9 podiums. Verstappen ended the season 3rd, ahead of two drivers (Leclerc and Vettel) who had a stronger car overall.

Anyway, neither of those seasons even comes close to Senna 1993 or Schumacher 1997.

That was more due to his team mates being completely shite and the car setup to suit Verstappen perfectly.

Perez has shown that with more experience it's possible to do a better job, so i'd say that weights more against your point.

 

[Dargonk]

This thread has managed to get really tedious. We really need the next race to arrive quickly so we can move on. Though I would really laugh if they both crashed out at the next race. Horner really would throw all the toys from his pram.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

This thread has managed to get really tedious. We really need the next race to arrive quickly so we can move on. Though I would really laugh if they both crashed out at the next race. Horner really would throw all the toys from his pram.

What makes you think it will change, we have one poster on here who dismisses anything one driver does and thinks another driver is god and can do no wrong,
Dismisses the 7 times WC as overrated, puts Max in the same class as Senna and Sch

 

[Dargonk]

What makes you think it will change, we have one poster on here who dismisses anything one driver does and thinks another driver is god and can do no wrong,
Dismisses the 7 times WC as overrated, puts Max in the same class as Senna and Sch

True. Not much hope then

 

[Wicked_Badger]

This thread has managed to get really tedious. We really need the next race to arrive quickly so we can move on. Though I would really laugh if they both crashed out at the next race. Horner really would throw all the toys from his pram.

As a McLaren fan, this would suit me perfectly

 

[LoneStar]

As a McLaren fan, this would suit me perfectly

I really hope McLaren and Ferrari get their shit together for 2022. A four way WDC/WCC would be immense, especially considering the driver lineup for each team.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Dismisses the 7 times WC as overrated, puts Max in the same class as Senna and Sch

When you break it down like that. It really is laughable.

 

[Wicked_Badger]

I really hope McLaren and Ferrari get their shit together for 2022. A four way WDC/WCC would be immense, especially considering the driver lineup for each team.

It would be awesome. I know some on here have been optimistic that we’ll have a close battle between teams after the rule change but I have the fear that one team pulls clear of everyone, which happens more often than not after a major rule change.

Hopefully not though!

 

[Adam-Utd]

To settle the racing incident debate once and for all, somebody should show this to Horner.

 

[Cheimoon]

It would be awesome. I know some on here have been optimistic that we’ll have a close battle between teams after the rule change but I have the fear that one team pulls clear of everyone, which happens more often than not after a major rule change.

Hopefully not though!

That's my worry as well: a few close races while teams are still figuring things out - and then the usual processions once the new hierarchy had been established.

We'll see I guess.

 

[Infordin]

That was more due to his team mates being completely shite and the car setup to suit Verstappen perfectly.

Gasly is far from shite, he’s a better driver than Kovalainen was, and the idea that the car is build around Verstappen is a myth.

Perez has shown that with more experience it's possible to do a better job, so i'd say that weights more against your point.

Or maybe that’s just because the 2021 Red Bull is a better car than the 2019 one?

This argument is so bad. That’s like saying that Button winning races in 2010 shows that the 2009 McLaren wasn’t actually that bad of a car.

 

[Frosty]

When you break it down like that. It really is laughable.

I am seriously impressed with your patience in this thread. It is commendable.

 

[Infordin]

Dismisses the 7 times WC as overrated, puts Max in the same class as Senna and Sch

Stats in F1 are meaningless anyway because 90% of stats are decided by the car.

Vettel is a 4 time WDC but Leclerc is still better than him.

Same energy.

 

[Abizzz]

Stats in F1 are meaningless anyway because 90% of stats are decided by the car.

Vettel is a 4 time WDC but Leclerc is still better than him.

Same energy.

But would anyone sane argue that Leclerc is better than Vettel was when he won those 4 WDC? Lewis is the reigning champion.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

But would anyone sane argue that Leclerc is better than Vettel was when he won those 4 WDC? Lewis is the reigning champion.

Exactly.
I have given up, anybody who can dismiss a 7 times WC and all his records and says it is 90% is not worth it.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I am seriously impressed with your patience in this thread. It is commendable.

Thank you. I'm not very well known for my patience either.

 

[Balljy]

Yesterday I learned that a young driver who's won nothing is better than a 7 times world champion who dominated the sport and is equal to 2 legends. Today I've learned that a different young driver who's won and proved nothing is a better driver than a 4 times world champion who dominated the sport.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Yesterday I learned that a young driver who's won nothing is better than a 7 times world champion who dominated the sport and is equal to 2 legends. Today I've learned that a different young driver who's won and proved nothing is a better driver than a 4 times world champion who dominated the sport.

I think we have all learnt the same

 

[pauldyson1uk]

OK the RB appeal is heard tomorrow.
What do we think will happen ?
I think they will uphold the penalty, say it was right.
If they change it, it will send out the wrong message, any team will think that they can appeal and get a penalty changed.

 

[Frosty]

OK the RB appeal is heard tomorrow.
What do we think will happen ?
I think they will uphold the penalty, say it was right.
If they change it, it will send out the wrong message, any team will think that they can appeal and get a penalty changed.

It should be upheld and will be. Like you said, it would set a bad precedent. The season would only officially end a few weeks after the last GP and after all the appeals are heard.

 

[oates]

I've a feeling that if they change anything it would include a penalty for Verstappen, however they won't like the Stewards decision questioned, they'll confirm it. There'll be anarchy if Red Bull get their way.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

OK the RB appeal is heard tomorrow.
What do we think will happen ?
I think they will uphold the penalty, say it was right.
If they change it, it will send out the wrong message, any team will think that they can appeal and get a penalty changed.

Nothing will change. Everyone with any sense know it was a racing incident.

I wonder if the review will cover Max's constant weaving to defend, which makes these type of dangerous incidents more likely...

 

[dinostar77]

RB will run Maxs engine from Silverstone in FP1. It was sent to Homda for checks and apparently wasnt badly damaged. So no parts needed swapping out that would cause any penalty points. FP1 shake down to see if any gremlins occur. Sensible to run it in Hungary (potentially) for the entire weekend and save a new engine for a race when the extra power boost of a new unit will benefit you.

Andrew Shovlin has already said not to expect Silverstone like performance from Mercedes at Hungary, which i expected. The RB is mighty through the corners low / medium / high with its rake design and Mercedes can't match it this season.

 

[Zlaatan]

OK the RB appeal is heard tomorrow.
What do we think will happen ?
I think they will uphold the penalty, say it was right.
If they change it, it will send out the wrong message, any team will think that they can appeal and get a penalty changed.

I'd be extremely surprised if the ruling was changed.

As for the bolded part, every team already knows they can appeal and (maybe) get a penalty changed, it's what this whole appeal process is there for. If the FIA didn't want any of that then the rule would say that all decisions on race day are final and all teams have to shut up and accept them.

 

[oates]

The video meeting on Thursday can only determine whether a review can take place, if so then it will be sent for the British Stewards to make a decision. I understand that for that first decision to be made new evidence must be produced. That could come from Verstappen who didn't get an opportunity due to going to hospital.

It's unusual but not unknown for teams to get the review, Red Bull's whinge seems to be that Hamilton was not punished sufficiently yet the penalty was handed out during the race so gaining the review must hinge on new evidence being produced.

Evidence could also come from the Mercedes car data, most significantly from later during the race to see the speed carried into and through Copse, because Red Bull griping that Hamilton carried too much speed into the corner (which to my mind might be odd as Verstappen certainly must have at least matched it), which might be new evidence but also needs to be relevant since Hamilton has already been found guilty and punished at the time.

Perhaps Red Bull want to claim that Hamilton's move was intended to crash into Verstappen but where do you find the evidence for that? Without fresh evidence anything else only reinforces the Steward's original decision at the time that Hamilton was more to blame - which as I've already said, he's been punished for.


Any new evidence from Mercedes could be a risk for Red Bull if it's decided that the blame was not predominantly Hamilton's and instead possibly 50/50.

 

[Frosty]

RB will run Maxs engine from Silverstone in FP1. It was sent to Homda for checks and apparently wasnt badly damaged. So no parts needed swapping out that would cause any penalty points. FP1 shake down to see if any gremlins occur. Sensible to run it in Hungary (potentially) for the entire weekend and save a new engine for a race when the extra power boost of a new unit will benefit you.

Andrew Shovlin has already said not to expect Silverstone like performance from Mercedes at Hungary, which i expected. The RB is mighty through the corners low / medium / high with its rake design and Mercedes can't match it this season.

Should be a breeze for Max 'better than Fangio' Verstappen.

In all honesty I am looking forward to the race. Lewis's racecraft does so much to close the gap on the RB in my opinion. If he can get to the first corner first we could see an almighty fight as Max tries to pass him.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Should be a breeze for Max 'better than Fangio' Verstappen.

In all honesty I am looking forward to the race. Lewis's racecraft does so much to close the gap on the RB in my opinion. If he can get to the first corner first we could see an almighty fight as Max tries to pass him.

 

[stu_1992]

At times like this I long for the insight of SantiMesutSanchez or whatever his name was. Or perhaps he'd have nothing to say since Ferrari weren't involved.

 

[Dargonk]

At times like this I long for the insight of SantiMesutSanchez or whatever his name was. Or perhaps he'd have nothing to say since Ferrari weren't involved.

He would be angry that both drivers were not punished and Ferrari not given a 10 second headstart for the rest of the season.

 

[elmo]

The video meeting on Thursday can only determine whether a review can take place, if so then it will be sent for the British Stewards to make a decision. I understand that for that first decision to be made new evidence must be produced. That could come from Verstappen who didn't get an opportunity due to going to hospital.

It's unusual but not unknown for teams to get the review, Red Bull's whinge seems to be that Hamilton was not punished sufficiently yet the penalty was handed out during the race so gaining the review must hinge on new evidence being produced.

Evidence could also come from the Mercedes car data, most significantly from later during the race to see the speed carried into and through Copse, because Red Bull griping that Hamilton carried too much speed into the corner (which to my mind might be odd as Verstappen certainly must have at least matched it), which might be new evidence but also needs to be relevant since Hamilton has already been found guilty and punished at the time.

Perhaps Red Bull want to claim that Hamilton's move was intended to crash into Verstappen but where do you find the evidence for that? Without fresh evidence anything else only reinforces the Steward's original decision at the time that Hamilton was more to blame - which as I've already said, he's been punished for.


Any new evidence from Mercedes could be a risk for Red Bull if it's decided that the blame was not predominantly Hamilton's and instead possibly 50/50.

I hope they'll throw the case out and fine Horner and Red Bull for wasting time

Horner is acting like a twat and making me remember how much I used to hate Red Bull when Seb was dominating.

 

[dinostar77]

Its a real shame we'll never get to Alonso in a RB or Merc up against lewis hamilton or max 'better than fangio' verstappen.

Danny Ric recently said Alonso has the best racecraft on the grid. It would be an interesting experiement to see how a mature lewis and a young max would cope with Alonso. Personally i think in terms of qualifying and race points it would be tight between the drivers if he were in either team.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Should be a breeze for Max 'better than Fangio' Verstappen.

In all honesty I am looking forward to the race. Lewis's racecraft does so much to close the gap on the RB in my opinion. If he can get to the first corner first we could see an almighty fight as Max tries to pass him.

The Red Bull car is very suited to the Hungary track. I'll be surprised if they don't get pole and win. Would be very entertaining to see a faster Red Bull behind the Mercedes inthis tight track for another Max and Lewis battle though.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I hope they'll throw the case out and fine Horner and Red Bull for wasting time

Horner is acting like a twat and making me remember how much I used to hate Red Bull when Seb was dominating.

100% this.

I used to quite like Webber but Horner had his golden boy then too.

 

[Hephaestus]

Hamilton and Vettel have both spoken out about Hungary's new anti-LGBTQ+ law.

Massive respect to both for doing so, nice to see them using their platform in this way.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Hamilton and Vettel have both spoken out about Hungary's new anti-LGBTQ+ law.

Massive respect to both for doing so, nice to see them using their platform in this way.

Fair play. Vettel does seem quite a thoughtful guy.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I hope they'll throw the case out and fine Horner and Red Bull for wasting time

Horner is acting like a twat and making me remember how much I used to hate Red Bull when Seb was dominating.

Couldn't agree more, he's unbearable.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

and so it should be .
OFFICIAL: Red Bull's request to review the incident at Silverstone is dismissed by the FIA stewards






F1 stewards dismiss Red Bull's petition to review Lewis Hamilton's British Grand Prix penalty on grounds that there was no "significant and relevant new element"

 

[NWRed]

https://www.racefans.net/2021/07/29...def5a43ca729a84f0bf0498436ed0#comment-4677830

The stewards have rejected Red Bull’s request for them to review their decision on the collision between Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton in the British Grand Prix.

Red Bull asked the stewards to reconsider their verdict which handed Hamilton a 10-second time penalty for the collision which put Verstappen out of the race. The team believe the sanction was too lenient, as Hamilton was able to continue and claim victory, and felt a further penalty was deserved.


Under F1’s rules, a review may take place if the stewards discover new information relevant to an incident which was not available to them at the time. But after considering a submission made by Red Bull the stewards denied their request.

Red Bull is understood to have presented several pieces of evidence to the stewards which they claim proved Hamilton entered Copse corner at a trajectory and speed which made the collision unavoidable.

The team used Hamilton’s overtaking move on Charles Leclerc at the same corner later in the race to demonstrate the Mercedes driver should have slowed down more for the corner and taken a tighter line in order to avoid contact.

To support their claim, Red Bull performed real-world and simulator analyses on the data. Reserve driver Alexander Albon recreated the lines taken by the drivers through the corners while taking part in a tyre test at Silverstone in the week after the race. Sergio Perez performed a similar test in the team’s simulator.

Red Bull maintain Verstappen left sufficient room for Hamilton on the inside of Copse, and claim their analysis showed the Mercedes should have braked considerably earlier than he did to make it around the corner without hitting their car.

After considering the information received from Red Bull, the stewards ruled it could not be considered new evidence as it was “created for the purposes of submissions to support the petition for review” and “created based on evidence that was available to the competitor at the time of the decision” in the form of GPS data from the cars.

The stewards noted that evidence submitted in support of a request for review must be “‘discovered’ (as opposed to created)”.

I can't believe the resources they've reportedly put into trying to make a case, wasting testing time, simulator time and their drivers time in an effort to get an additional punishment for Lewis. Mercedes must be rubbing their hands with how this has got under their skin, seems like they've forgotten they're still ahead and the championship is only half over.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Red Bull should be fined for wasting everybody time