I'm convinced. Forget Bellingham, we need to sign this kid Tito Flo @carvajal
Florian Wirtz | Leverkusen player
- Thread starter Invictus
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Wow huge praise
Good to see his road back to his best is going to well. ACL’s are terrible all the time but they’re especially hard to accept when they strike down highly promising young players. Hopefully it’s just upwards from here for him.
Can we do swap deal with Havertz? You get your golden boy back home and also keep Wirtz out of Bayern’s grubby filthy hands. Win win
Last edited:
Yes, but someone like Kvaratskhelia would be more appropriate for that specific role. Under ten Hag, Wirtz would be best used as a number 10 — someone who can can carry the ball in central zones is extremely valuable (hence why we made a big push for Frenkie, who excels as a dribbler from deeper central positions). Of course, the overarching concern is that he is not going to be cheap (which makes him a somewhat unrealistic muppet target unless ownership issues are resolved in the near term and there's more clarity regarding the potential budget). If Havertz went for €80 million, Leverkusen and Völler would be well within their rights to demand upwards of €100 million for this lad from a Premier League outfit.
That's fine for me too, we have to sign this year, and I'm sure it's cheaper. Maybe he will come with his coach hehe
Think his coach needs a bit more experience under his belt yet
I hope we avoid shopping from Bundesliga in short term, just duds after duds
I don't think Kaka exactly fits this case because Wirtz has a bigger price tag than Kaka had at that time, which was reflected in the fee AC Milan paid for him. 8.5m EUR, even when looked at the lense of that time, when Ronaldo was signed for double that, was not an astronomical fee, I would probably make it akin to around 50-60m GBP today.Milan had Rui Costa (who made the most assists in the competition as they won the Champions League in 2003), but they also made a move for Kaká from São Paulo — which paid big dividends in the years to follow, as fate would have it. While United's situation (among other variables) is not exactly the same, and Bruno and Eriksen are good contributors — Wirtz is a decade younger, a good ball-carrier on top of being a special creative passer already (*), comes across as a consummate ten Hag player in terms of footballing intelligence and keeping things simple (which was one of Cruyff's mantras), and could be a top performer for a very long period of time. If the opportunity is there to sign someone like him (i.e. one of the absolute best playmakers of the upcoming generation), it would behoove us to at least test the waters (and build from a position of strength, rather than desperation).
(*) These stats are not perfectly equalized of course (Wirtz's sample size is smaller, for example; a purple-patch can skew the data vs. someone who plays week-in an week-out), but paint a reasonably good picture of his talents as a ball-carrier (which give him as extra dimension vis-à-vis Bruno). As he develops, he could basically be Bruno with superior decision-making and dribbling ability!
If Wirtz is available for that amount, then I agree 100% that we should grab him with both hands, but that won't be the case this summer. I think Wirtz has said that he plans to play the next season with Leverkusen, so Leverkusen won't let him go for anything less than what Chelsea paid for Havertz. Leverkusen not making it into European competition might change that valuation, but in any case I would be very surprised if it's below 80m GBP.
The question really is what future we see with Bruno, and for how long. He's still only 28 so you can imagine 3-4 more years from him, and having a high potential player like Wirtz sit on the sideline for that amount of time won't be easy. Rui Costa was already 31 when Kaka was signed so it looked more natural that Kaka would take over in a year or two.
That being said, fitness taken, he's a guaranteed world class player. I haven't been as hyped for a German player since Kroos and Gotze, his natural talent is immense but what's more impressive is his mental strength I feel. He already looks like a leader on the pitch and that will translate well to a higher pressure environment at a bigger club. Would absolutely love to see him here.
These things should be considered on a case-by-case basis, to be fair; with an emphasis on mental makeup and also relative athleticism (which can be a key indicator for certain positions). Büttner, Memphis, Blind, van de Beek were signed from the Eredivisie, and they didn't work out or were sold before they could make a significant impact — no doubt about that. But we now have Martínez (who's already among the best players in the team), Malacia (good value for money) and Antony (yet to blow us away, but is making positive contributions) as direct signings from the very same league. Of course, ten Hag's familiarity with them was a statement of reassurance, however the basic principle remains the same. Bundesliga clubs have exported the likes of De Bruyne, Son, Firmino, Matip, Håland to the Premier League — so maybe we aren't targeting the right profile of players (with the appropriate mental, technical and athletic characteristics), and/or aren't able to provide an optimal platform for them. Foregoing elite talents because of some misconceived historical “trend” would be quite short-sighted, no? Wirtz has exceptional fundamental qualities — he would make a difference in any league, fitness permitting.
Unbelievable player. Been impressed with him because he looks as good as he was pre-injury.
Leverkusen already "have" to sell Diaby and possibly Frimpong, they would be crazy to also let go of Wirtz. He signed a new contract last summer, I assume this means that he'll stay put this summer and will have some written or verbal promise that ensures he can leave (to Bayern) in 2024.
Hope we go back to buying the best young talents out there. This guy looks exciting
To be honest, the guy is such a joy to watch that I just want him around for as long as possible. He makes us so much more watchable. Everytime he has the ball, you are on the edge of your seat because he could pull something off out of nowhere, always making the right decisions executed with technical brillance, etc. So a no from meGood to see his road back to his best is going to well. ACL’s are terrible all the time but they’re especially hard to accept when they strike down highly promising young players. Hopefully it’s just upwards from here for him.
Can we do swap deal with Havertz? You get your golden boy back home and also keep Wirtz out of Bayern’s grubby filthy hands. Win win
Reminds me very much of a right footed Phil Foden. I always get a bit worried by players of this ilk as they don’t seem to have a natural position
Well assuming we have the perquisite cash to spend with sure we could hoard every promising youngster that there is and with at this stage probably warrants our attention but with all that said he's still a youngsters only in infancy stages of his career with much to learn and much to improve upon so the question becomes whether we really are the best next step to properly develop his talents and as it stands considering how much of a fitness freak Bruno is i doubt the answer would be positive and he would probably struggle amassing minutes in a stage when that's of paramount importance to his development.Milan had Rui Costa (who made the most assists in the competition as they won the Champions League in 2003), but they also made a move for Kaká from São Paulo — which paid big dividends in the years to follow, as fate would have it. While United's situation (among other variables) is not exactly the same, and Bruno and Eriksen are good contributors — Wirtz is a decade younger, a good ball-carrier on top of being a special creative passer already (*), comes across as a consummate ten Hag player in terms of footballing intelligence and keeping things simple (which was one of Cruyff's mantras), and could be a top performer for a very long period of time. If the opportunity is there to sign someone like him (i.e. one of the absolute best playmakers of the upcoming generation), it would behoove us to at least test the waters (and build from a position of strength, rather than desperation).
(*) These stats are not perfectly equalized of course (Wirtz's sample size is smaller, for example; a purple-patch can skew the data vs. someone who plays week-in an week-out), but paint a reasonably good picture of his talents as a ball-carrier (which give him as extra dimension vis-à-vis Bruno). As he develops, he could basically be Bruno with superior decision-making and dribbling ability!
Of course we could always loan him out but that seems to rarely work out for us.
He's a wonderful prospect but I'm afraid we might waste that very potential by bringing him in too early.
I wonder if he could play deeper as he matures. Somebody with his attacking skillset would be very valuable for us in the Eriksen role beside Casemiro. He has Bruno's creative passing with added security/better retention.
Very important point and easily overlooked. This is why I feel Bellingham will do well in the league he has the attributes and intensity to transition his influence in the English league. I remember Wirtz looking like a fantastic prospect before his injury, he's the press resistant type of midfielder United could have perhaps putting Bruno in a wider position in games where the team is expected to dominate.
The drop off from Eriksen in the midfield from what I have seen has been monumental, United struggle to control games. That's why the recent performances have been games of two halves he makes everything tick. The profile for a midfielder who retains and nurtures possession is just as important as a striker in summer.
Wouldn’t be surprised. All your clubs just submit to Bayern.
By reading this I get the impression you underestimate a little bit how good he already is
Surely Bayern bound?
Can't see Bayern letting another young talented German go abroad
Can't see Bayern letting another young talented German go abroad
Perhaps, I'll concede that I haven't watched him that much aside from a game here nad there, do you think he's capable of being a starter for United in this stage of his career?
When a player moves, there's always a risk that he loses his form. But if he maintains the level he is currently displaying, yes, absolutely. I think he's on the same level as Bellingham (who is going to be signed by a top club as a starter) and Musiala (who is already a starter at a top club) and in my biased opinion even better since he's technically the best of the three and has better decision making/game reading ability. Definitely the best player I've seen at Leverkusen although I must admit that I'm too young to really judge Ballack 2002 for example.
But Sancho was also enormous for Dortmund and he lost the plot after switching clubs. That has not necessarily something to do with quality but especially with young players there are many psychological factors involved. But as @hasanejaz88 already pointed out, he makes a really resilient impression and shows almost no signs of nervousness.
That being said, I highly doubt he'll leave in the summer. His father already confirmed that he's staying despite us being far behind the EL or CL positions. But in summer 2024, I'd be all over him as the representative of a top club. He's really special.
Despite you being part of the infamous Bundesliga brigade I'd take your word for this
, I'll try to look out for any future games he might feature in and hopefully if he's indeed the real deal as his stats and his reputation suggests we'll be in for him by the time he's ready to move, if the price is right of course.It's called Bundesliga Protection Alliance, if you pleaseDespite you being part of the infamous Bundesliga brigade I'd take your word for this
Completely agree, people will rightfully look to Werner and Havertz as failed signings but those who saw him regularly pointed out that they, Werner in particular, did show mental weakness in the bigger occasions and that might mean they struggle for a bigger team. Jump in quality of a league is one thing, but the added pressure of playing for a big team is something that can't be ignored.
Sancho is a surprise though, he was great in matches versus Bayern and really did lead Dortmund at times.
Wirtz looks a natural leader and I don't think he'll struggle in a bigger team. Bayern would be ones to watch out for to nab him with Muller getting older. Maybe they can try and show the German NT how to play him and Musiala together
Please Forgive my improper lack of form
Linked to Barca and Real.
Struggle to see him at Barca with Pedri and Gavi there, but can 100% see him at Real in a year or so as the creative replacement for Modric if they don’t go for Bellingham.
Would love to see him at Utd though. With his ACL injury stuttering his season perhaps he’ll stay at Leverkusen for another year, by which point Bruno would be approaching 30…
Would love to see him at Utd though. With his ACL injury stuttering his season perhaps he’ll stay at Leverkusen for another year, by which point Bruno would be approaching 30…
Looks a fine talent. We never seem to get these players with magic in their feet in central areas who can weave through challenges for fun.
Ahhh. I too, longed for Marco Verratti for a time!
That'll depend on if they lose the league and need to raid the team that won it ahead of them.Good to see his road back to his best is going to well. ACL’s are terrible all the time but they’re especially hard to accept when they strike down highly promising young players. Hopefully it’s just upwards from here for him.
Can we do swap deal with Havertz? You get your golden boy back home and also keep Wirtz out of Bayern’s grubby filthy hands. Win win
Wondering the same. The only time Bayern miss out on German talents like him is if they get too good and pricey too fast (e.g. Havertz).
Sancho went to the wrong team. United just don't play to his strenghts, even now, and the same thing is happening with Antony as well. The attack is too individualistic. It works for them so they have no reason to change at the moment either
Wirtz on the other hand is an individualistic attacker, and his first step is explosive enough for his dribbling to translate to the PL too. He'd be much better suited to United
What's the asking price? What is he Wirtz?
Will be difficult if Union manages to win the league. Nobody in their squad looks remotely interesting for Bayern, the fans would riot if Brazzo signs any of that mediocre bunch
It's almost like he didn't have a big injury. Incredible how he's come back from the layoff as if he's been playing every week. Insane talent.
I think Sancho's case is a bit more complicated than that. You don't become that good if you aren't individualistic. He was absolutely capable of beating one or even two or three opponent players by himself and you've seen few of that for United. He was far too good to be playing this averagely, even in a disjointed team.
I wouldn't say his first step is more explosive by the way. He's just more convinced in his abilities than Sancho is currently. What Wirtz does excellently though is reading on which foot you put your balance and then accelerate past you on that side (a bit how Messi likes to do it when cutting inside) what maybe makes him look even faster than he is (nothing like a Diaby or Rashford but still very quick, similar to Sancho).
Folk here are getting me hyped about this kid, hopefully he's the real deal.
Seems he's staying at Leverkusen for another year.