[Irwin99]

He's having a good season overall I think. I've made the comment about it being in the god's hands which type of Fred turns up but we've seen the better side of him more often this season.

A bit like Valencia or Blind when they were here in that he's a thoroughly likable guy too even when he's on one of his bad days.

 

[Oranges038]

Notice who is the top midfielder

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It sucks when facts come and ruin everything, doesn't it?

Facts?

Pass completion means very little in the grand scheme of things without context.

 

[Marwood]

That's why the stats are showing percentiles in comparison to his peers. And yes, he is.

So how many assists/goals per season would a No.8 drop to before you considered him unproductive?

 

[georgipep]

So how many assists/goals per season would a No.8 drop to before you considered him unproductive?

I don't know, it depends on context. Is the team relying on the #8 to score goals? Is he more a destroyer? Is he more of a controller? Fred is a destroyer and is still contributing G+A way above average

 

[georgipep]

Facts?

Pass completion means very little in the grand scheme of things without context.

And yet, that's what you wrote

If you look back at my first post. I mentioned his passing being quite shite.

His ability on the ball is just not good enough. You can be a ball presser and still be able to pass the ball well, like Fletcher was and Park plenty of others that can do it too. It's basically just paying simple attention to how and where to pass the ball and he's just not very good at it.

Stop moving the goalposts to try and avoid facing the facts

 

[Oranges038]

And yet, that's what you wrote




Stop moving the goalposts to try and avoid facing the facts

Again, ignoring the point.

Passing completion % doesn't tell the full story about the quality of the passes, was there a better pass on, did he just pick the safest pass etc. It's very poor metric to judge a players passing ability and the quality of those passes.

For example, he played a pass to Dalot last nigth, Dalot was on the run, but the ball went behind him. Now, technically the ball went to Dalot, but it was a bad pass that ruined the flow an attacking move.

Is that counted as a succesful pass?

Now ask yourself. Was it a good pass?

 

[GL21]

It sucks when facts come and ruin everything, doesn't it?
[/QUOTE]
Facts are he plays the one twos with the defence which isn't much use a lot of the time. Yes I know about drawing players in etc but Fred doesn't do this. It's clear teams let him have the ball without inflicting pressure as he's largely ineffective. If he does decide to turn and play it progressively he very often breaks down a potential attack and regularly misplaces any technical passes. A lot of his successful passes are nothing balls.

 

[georgipep]

Again, ignoring the point.

Passing completion % doesn't tell the full story about the quality of the passes, was there a better pass on, did he just pick the safest pass etc. It's very poor metric to judge a players passing ability and the quality of those passes.

For example, he played a pass to Dalot last nigth, Dalot was on the run, but the ball went behind him. Now, technically the ball went to Dalot, but it was a bad pass that ruined the flow an attacking move.

Is that counted as a succesful pass?

Now ask yourself. Was it a good pass?

So, it's your subjective "eye test" that's a better metric? Not the actual stats and not the managers insistence on playing him....oooook

 

[Beachryan]

Would love to see stats on his progressive passing. It does feel like every match there's a moment when Fred does a Fred - plays an idiotic pass that creates a decent chance for the opposition.

I want to love him cause his attitude is infectious, but I don't believe you can play the kind of controlled football we all desire with him in the centre of the park. When you add that to Bruno it just makes us outrageously chaotic.

 

[Marwood]

I don't know, it depends on context. Is the team relying on the #8 to score goals? Is he more a destroyer? Is he more of a controller? Fred is a destroyer and is still contributing G+A way above average

A player like Fred in a team like United. How many assists/goals per season would be unproductive?

 

[georgipep]

A player like Fred in a team like United. How many assists/goals per season would be unproductive?

My opinion? I'd be happy if he scores two goals per season and contributes with five assists. His role is to break opposition attacks, if possible in their third. Some of those will be shot generating actions, others won't.

Our goalscoring midfielder is Bruno. And main threat is from the left wing with Rashford and Garnacho.

 

[Olecurls99]

A player like Fred in a team like United. How many assists/goals per season would be unproductive?

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I think that's quite productive. How about you?

 

[Oranges038]

So, it's your subjective "eye test" that's a better metric? Not the actual stats and not the managers insistence on playing him....oooook

Ignoring it again.

Was it classed as an accurate pass?

And Was it a good pass?

 

[MadDogg]

I'm not great with stats. I legit don't know what xG means, nor do I really want to.

But a quick search of actual figures shows he has 8 goals and 6 assists in his Premier League career.

If that puts him in the top 20% amongst all Europe's no.8's they all need to seriously up their game.

Fred spent the majority of his time here being played out of position as the deepest midfielder (ie. not really as an 8). In that position he never got many goals, but even there he tended to have decent stats for key passes and expected assists. It was just that the other players wouldn't convert the opportunities that he gave them. I remember Rashford in particular wasting quite a few.

The instant Ralf and later ETH came in and started playing Fred further forward (in the position that a blind man could see he was better suited to) he started getting goals and assists. It's not exactly a coincidence.

 

[united for life]

He's having a good season overall I think. I've made the comment about it being in the god's hands which type of Fred turns up but we've seen the better side of him more often this season.

A bit like Valencia or Blind when they were here in that he's a thoroughly likable guy too even when he's on one of his bad days.

when he’s either fantastic or poor; rarely anything in between. Luckily, he’s more fantastic than poor this year. I like the role he is playing now. Not a starter and will never again be a regular starter for us. A decent squad player. Next year, if we sign a midfielder (which I think we should do), his game time might drop more

 

[georgipep]

Ignoring it again.

Was it classed as an accurate pass?

And Was it a good pass?

Again, what is your metric?

 

[Marwood]

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I think that's quite productive. How about you?

Yeah in his last 11 games. But he's been here 5 years. What about the other 120 games he's played.

Which sample size should we pay attention to do you think in deciding if Fred is a player we can get back to the very top with?

Every player on the planet can have a purple patch here and there.

 

[Oranges038]

Again, what is your metric?

This is my metric.

He played a pass to Dalot last nigth, Dalot was on the run, but the ball went behind him. Now, technically the ball went to Dalot, but it was a bad pass that ruined the flow an attacking move.

It's something he does too often for my liking, regularly ruins the tempo of a move with a poor first touch or pass.

 

[Golden Nugget]

Yeah in his last 11 games. But he's been here 5 years. What about the other 120 games he's played.

Which sample size should we pay attention to do you think in deciding if Fred is a player we can get back to the very top with?

Every player on the planet can have a purple patch here and there.

So players are not allowed to improve their stats and grow into teams? Several people mentioning he’s been played as an 8 now, which has improved his goal scoring stats - whereas he was played deeper as a 6 before, which means his stats weren’t as good.

We rightfully say Rashford is having a great season; we don’t need to worry about how he preformed last season.

 

[Lyng]

Fred is very good at pressing and harassing opposition players. And that's it. He lacks the composure and football intelligence to really be a first 11 player if we are to win comfortably, hence why our midfield has been a bit of a weak spot since Eriksens injury.
Casemiro has been carrying hard but as soon as he has a rare off game we crumble (Liverpool match).
Fred has done well enough and is a fine player to have on the bench. Should never be a permanent starter for us.

 

[Marwood]

So players are not allowed to improve their stats and grow into teams? Several people mentioning he’s been played as an 8 now, which has improved his goal scoring stats - whereas he was played deeper as a 6 before, which means his stats weren’t as good.

We rightfully say Rashford is having a great season; we don’t need to worry about how he preformed last season.

Well nobody's saying that but if Wout were to go on a goalscoring run for the next 10 games would that convince you he's the man for us? Course not. You take the guys whole career into consideration

The lengths people go to to defend a player. An 11 game spell is now all that matters apparently.

Fred hasn't recorded many goals or assists because his finishing and passing is very average.

 

[Olecurls99]

Yeah in his last 11 games. But he's been here 5 years. What about the other 120 games he's played.

Which sample size should we pay attention to do you think in deciding if Fred is a player we can get back to the very top with?

Every player on the planet can have a purple patch here and there.

This is the Fred 22-23 performance thread.

You're looking for the 'Is Fred worth 50m' thread.

 

[georgipep]

This is my metric.

He played a pass to Dalot last nigth, Dalot was on the run, but the ball went behind him. Now, technically the ball went to Dalot, but it was a bad pass that ruined the flow an attacking move.

It's something he does too often for my liking, regularly ruins the tempo of a move with a poor first touch or pass.

So, no metric. Got it.

 

[Oranges038]

So, no metric. Got it.

By the metric of what constitutes a good pass.

I swear some people think just kicking the ball at someone is a good pass.

 

[georgipep]

By the metric of what constitutes a good pass.

I swear some people think just kicking the ball at someone is a good pass.

What constitutes a good pass to you.

That's why every professional in football use standardised data and metrics. I am pretty certain they aren't calling you to watch video footage and tell them who is doing well.

 

[MadDogg]

Yeah in his last 11 games. But he's been here 5 years. What about the other 120 games he's played.

Which sample size should we pay attention to do you think in deciding if Fred is a player we can get back to the very top with?

I would think the obvious sample size would be to use the time that he's been playing his current position as a box-to-box #8, instead of when we expected him to be our deep-lying playmaker.

His current role started once Ralf took over last season and continued when ETH took over. So about 15 months, not exactly a small sample size. In that time he's scored 9 goals and 8 assists, at an average of a goal or assist ever 185 minutes (so basically every 2 games). That's a pretty damn good strike rate for someone who is mostly considered a high-pressing destroyer.

Should Fred be our first choice central midfielder? No. But he's a good squad player that will be a better option in some games than our other players.

 

[Golden Nugget]

Well nobody's saying that but if Wout were to go on a goalscoring run for the next 10 games would that convince you he's the man for us? Course not. You take the guys whole career into consideration

The lengths people go to to defend a player. An 11 game spell is now all that matters apparently.

Fred hasn't recorded many goals or assists because his finishing and passing is very average.

As a starter? No. As a backup, yeah sure. It’ll mean he’s geled into the squad and can do a job for us as backup when needed.

Fred is not our first team midfielder; he’s a backup and starter for particular games and roles.

Fred brings polarizing opinions - I like him but I get why people don’t - but the lengths you are going to discredit his goal and assists stats this season is silly. Current form doesn’t matter apparently if they’ve played badly in a different position in the past.

 

[Oranges038]

What constitutes a good pass to you.

That's why every professional in football use standardised data and metrics. I am pretty certain they aren't calling you to watch video footage and tell them who is doing well.

They should.

 

[georgipep]

They should.

 

[Marwood]

I would think the obvious sample size would be to use the time that he's been playing his current position as a box-to-box #8, instead of when we expected him to be our deep-lying playmaker.

His current role started once Ralf took over last season and continued when ETH took over. So about 15 months, not exactly a small sample size. In that time he's scored 9 goals and 8 assists, at an average of a goal or assist ever 185 minutes (so basically every 2 games). That's a pretty damn good strike rate for someone who is mostly considered a high-pressing destroyer.

Should Fred be our first choice central midfielder? No. But he's a good squad player that will be a better option in some games than our other players.

As a starter? No. As a backup, yeah sure. It’ll mean he’s geled into the squad and can do a job for us as backup when needed.

Fred is not our first team midfielder; he’s a backup and starter for particular games and roles.

Fred brings polarizing opinions - I like him but I get why people don’t - but the lengths you are going to discredit his goal and assists stats this season is silly. Current form doesn’t matter apparently if they’ve played badly in a different position in the past.

There's an effort here to suggest he's played most of his time as a 6. As a way of justifying a lack of product. He hasn't. All his games with McTominay, both have played as box to box midfielders. His first three years here Matic was at he club. He's played as a 6 now and again but not all that much.

He's been in plenty of goal scoring positions over the years, he's been far enough up the pitch to chip in with assists.

He just doesn't have the technial consistency to produce on a consistent basis.

You don't win major trophies with Fred as your first choice backup. Same goes for someone like Wout up top. You need guys with a higher bottom level.

 

[Lyng]

By the metric of what constitutes a good pass.

I swear some people think just kicking the ball at someone is a good pass.

It's the same people that claimed Maguire is excellent on the ball...

 

[Based Adnan]

Chris Smalling also consistently had the best pass % in the team yet anyone who thinks he's a good passer needs to give their head a wobble.

 

[11101]

What constitutes a good pass to you.

That's why every professional in football use standardised data and metrics. I am pretty certain they aren't calling you to watch video footage and tell them who is doing well.

They're using a hell of a lot more than just data and metrics too.

Fred is a high risk high tempo passer and he's quite good at that. You don't put those players on the edge of your own box but further up the pitch they're exactly what you want.

 

[Olecurls99]

There's an effort here to suggest he's played most of his time as a 6. As a way of justifying a lack of product. He hasn't. All his games with McTominay, both have played as box to box midfielders. His first three years here Matic was at he club. He's played as a 6 now and again but not all that much.

He's been in plenty of goal scoring positions over the years, he's been far enough up the pitch to chip in with assists.

He just doesn't have the technial consistency to produce on a consistent basis.

You don't win major trophies with Fred as your first choice backup. Same goes for someone like Wout up top. You need guys with a higher bottom level.

Averaging a goal or assist in less than 2 games would suggest he very much is good enough to be a backup.

Very few starting midfielders have those figures. He's always had great attributes and this year he's added goal creation to the list.

 

[MadDogg]

There's an effort here to suggest he's played most of his time as a 6. As a way of justifying a lack of product. He hasn't. All his games with McTominay, both have played as box to box midfielders. His first three years here Matic was at he club. He's played as a 6 now and again but not all that much.

When playing with McTominay it was obvious that Fred was the one that was tasked with sitting deeper, getting the ball off the defenders and playing out. He was an 8 trying to play as a 6. He was certainly inconsistent at it but that was what his role was. He still got forward at times but obviously not as much as he is now. He also didn't actually play with Matic very often, most likely because Ole normally played them in the same role. It was basically just a short period right before the covid lockdown where they played together. His partnership with Pogba was more interesting, as in the early days Ole played Pogba as the deeper playmaker but later on switched them with Fred sitting deeper again.

When Ralf came in he swapped Fred and Scott's positions, with McTominay sitting deeper and giving Fred more freedom. It was the same two players but the change of roles was blatantly obvious. Surely you don't think he's being played in the same role now as what he was under Ole?

 

[georgipep]

They're using a hell of a lot more than just data and metrics too.

Fred is a high risk high tempo passer and he's quite good at that. You don't put those players on the edge of your own box but further up the pitch they're exactly what you want.

Agree. And he is delivering the goods!

 

[Marwood]

When playing with McTominay it was obvious that Fred was the one that was tasked with sitting deeper, getting the ball off the defenders and playing out. He was an 8 trying to play as a 6. He was certainly inconsistent at it but that was what his role was. He still got forward at times but obviously not as much as he is now. He also didn't actually play with Matic very often, most likely because Ole normally played them in the same role. It was basically just a short period right before the covid lockdown where they played together. His partnership with Pogba was more interesting, as in the early days Ole played Pogba as the deeper playmaker but later on switched them with Fred sitting deeper again.

When Ralf came in he swapped Fred and Scott's positions, with McTominay sitting deeper and giving Fred more freedom. It was the same two players but the change of roles was blatantly obvious. Surely you don't think he's being played in the same role now as what he was under Ole?

Yet Casemiro, a full on number 6, already has five goals. Took Fred three and a half years to reach that tally.

 

[MadDogg]

Yet Casemiro, a full on number 6, already has five goals. Took Fred three and a half years to reach that tally.

The fact that one of the best DM's in history is able to score goals means we should expect the same from a player who is playing in a position he's not suited to? A position that doesn't normally get many goals and assists anyway.

At the end of the day, Fred had the opportunity to score more goals during his time in that position so it was fair to criticise it somewhat. I'm not saying forget it entirely. However reviewing his play should be weighted heavily towards when he's actually played in his current position, in which case he's not just doing a lot better than what he was, but much better than the majority of players in his position. Not just over 11 games like you were trying to make out but over the space of about 15 months.

 

[top1whoisman]

Works hard for the team and disrupts the opponent's play well, but sometimes (a bit too often) that touch makes me doubt he's actually Brazilian.

 

[Sylar]

Having a midfielder at united, who can't use his right foot is bizarre and a handicap.