This is what is most impressive about Wilshere IMO. Not many CMs are able to dictate play but also effortlessly move up the field with the ball. Anderson does this, for us, but his game is lacking in quite a few other areas.
Gündogan vs. Wilshere
- Thread starter RDCR07
- Start date
I disagree. I feel the way Dortmund pass and move is in fact different to the way Barca play and hence I call it their style. Just watch the video below. This isnt the typical tiki-taka, you wont find the conventional 'triangle' passing that Barca does, there is more purpose to their passing, there is more fluidity to their passing, they dont play as narrow as Barca does. In essence their movement of the ball is just pure class and their understanding is brilliant.
The way Dortmund play is sort of similar to the way we play as in we both use our full backs well in attack, play wide using our wingers, use long balls when necessary etc. Its just that they pass the ball better than we do and it definitely looks a hell of a lot better/attractive.
They play like this most of the games unless like you said if they are playing away in the Champions League, then of course they try and play it safe and counter attack even more. And another thing is that their counter attack is good going forward. They are probably on par with Madrid as the best counter attacking side today and I have to agree with what Gary Neville said today in that they counter the opposition's counter attacking better than anyone else.
I didn't mean it in the sense that Dortmund are copying other teams. They just don't have a set style. There are certain aspects as collective movement and quick transitions which they have kept over the years but their style changes with every player they lose/gain and depending on their opponents.
Gundohan on the other hand is a much better passer and knows how to control games.
Absolutely no contest as of now. Gundohan is a class act at the highest level. Wilshere still has lots to prove imo. Big potential though.
Gundogan by some distance for me.Everything Wilshere does, he can do it and even better.Much more calm and technical player
The difference between the two is Wilshere is way more physical. Their talent levels IMO are about the same. They'd be so complimentary as a pairing
Like I said sign both of them, you can never have enough quality in midfield.
"Way more physical" chief ? You're like describing Yaya Toure.
Gündogan for me. Not only does he seem like a better player with higher potential, but he also manages to stay fit. He's also one of the standout players in a brilliant Dortmund team. It's much easier to stand out in Arsenal, so that could explain why Wilshere looks so good.
If you were even slightly objective about him, and I agree it's difficult, you'd see that he has a lot to do before being considered anywhere close to the best in the world. Scott Parker was able to do in one season for Charlton what Wilshere has shown so far.
I'm not counting the current season for him, and I still think there's a lot of development ahead for Wilshere. It'll be interesting to see if he'll knuckle down and work hard at it over the next 2-3 seasons to try and land us a trophy or he'll have his head swayed sooner rather than later.
One of the major problems, and it's probably not even related to how he will turn out as a player, is that he barely seems to enjoy playing the game. Then again, I'm probably comparing him to Cesc in that respect, whose enthusiasm and inventive ability was phenomenal right from his debut to the season before he left.
No, not really. Wilshere loves tackling and going into 50-50 challenges for the ball, even if his game reading and positional play is on point. Gundogan in comparison tackles and challenges far less. He instead uses game reading and positioning to nick the ball most of the time. That is what I mean when I say Wilshere ''is way more physical''.
For in terms of passing and creativity I don't agree that one is superior to the other. For we have seen a Wilshere shine against a Barca near their brilliant best even drawing praise from their midfielders. Same way Gundogan was shining vs Xabi Alonso, Khedeira and Modric.
Don't really know how it is ignorant. Bayern are playing very German style football. It's there for everyone to see, and it's not a negative thing.
That's exactly it not to mention that atm we don't have a style or it's long hoof balls and zombie passing, which neither is a style I would encourage any team to play.
I see, it's semantics after all.That "physical" aspect of Wilshere is not necessarily a good thing in my eyes, I mean I don't think he should go from what he is to a complete pussy but in a way it has contributed to his poor fitness levels.He plays a game his body is finding tough to keep up with.
Maybe it'd be better for him to try to focus on his positional awareness (even if it really isn't something easy) than going hard into tackles.
Team with the most possession in Europe after Barcelona, plays great combinations and lovely short passing games, scoring goals from all over the pitch.
If that is what people see as "very German" these days I'm taking it.
Beats the hell out of "mentally and physically tough, playing shit football and still winning" which it still was at the beginning of the millennium.
Go away you twunts. Keep it on topic.
I agree. I suspect its his being English that makes him like the blood and thunder approach. Even though he really doesn't need it.
4-2-3-1.. with both of them as the base 2 in midfield with Kagawa behind the striker.. Jizz time.
Gündogan by some distance atm. Not as injury prone, the better footballer and not such an unbelievable cnut like Wilshere.
Gundogan is better right now consistently. Wilshere can be equally good too when he gets a consistent year of football in now.
Both have very good potential, imo. Would love either one here.
Both have very good potential, imo. Would love either one here.
Well, Bayern and Dortmund look more like the side of 72 than the machine of 90 or 96. It's great that the perception of german football has changed again. We were a truely exciting football nation with lots of flair players a (long) while ago but people forgot about it during the last decades.
Tough choice, but I'd go for Wilshere, despite Guendogan's tremendous development. Carrick, Wilshere and Kagawa behind RVP, Rooney and Zaha/Welbeck. Yes please.
Tbf, Wilshere put in a Awesome performance against Barcelona in the 2010/11 season as a 18/19 year old when Barca was having a very good season. And he has also done well for England so far.
I think Gundogan has overtaken him now in terms of consistency because of his Injury problems though. Won't say there is much in it.
It was very German in the 70s you plank.
That was before my time.
"Very German" football for me always meant not very attractive but efficient football.
It's the problem when people throw around arbitrary bullshit phrases they often get misunderstood.
How about you say the next time: "the way the Bayern and Dortmund play these days really reminded me of the how they played in the 70s" that would be something concrete.
No.
Gundogan > Wilshere
Wilshere is not better than Cleverley defensively. Wilshere mainly looks uninterested in participating in less "flashy" parts of the games whereas Cleverley seems more unable to.
Wilshere is very lazy in his defensive work and also in his movement. If a partner is under pressure and needs Wilshere to back down the pitch for an easy pass - Wilshere often pushes up instead which means if the teammate gets a pass to Wilshere he has a free run at goal but if he loses it, the team will suffer a dangerous counter.
In my mind Gundogan is several levels above Wilshere defensively which makes him much more suited for a 4-2-3-1.
Wilshere is very lazy in his defensive work and also in his movement. If a partner is under pressure and needs Wilshere to back down the pitch for an easy pass - Wilshere often pushes up instead which means if the teammate gets a pass to Wilshere he has a free run at goal but if he loses it, the team will suffer a dangerous counter.
In my mind Gundogan is several levels above Wilshere defensively which makes him much more suited for a 4-2-3-1.
Indeed. Who was the last highly talented young German to move to England? Clearly there is a trend here and i dont see it being bucked any time soon.
He's looked fine when given responsibility. He doesn't play that role usually for Arsenal though.
That is a massively idiotic post, to be fair.
Wilshere for me. The way he just keeps the ball and glides past players is beautiful. Plus he's English which would form a good core of young Englishh players at the club.
The thing I really like about Gundogan is how mobile and aggressive he is, actually. Wilshere's got that bit more aggression but he gives away a lot of stupid fouls because of that.
I didn't say we should copy them, all I said was I'd like to see us adopt a pressing game. We were a well-drilled unit against Madrid, everyone knew their roles and we pressed intelligently (but intermittently). I'd just like to see that taken up a notch. Bayern had to do the same just to compete with Dortmund, I'd love for us to be the first English team to get onto that personally. I'll settle for us just integrating Kagawa and van Persie into the team properly and playing more sexy one-touch football. It's not about copying Dortmund, I just want us to build on our own football. This is all I was talking about when I said we've played Dortmund-style football:
Agree with everything. Somehow find myself agreeing with you on almost everything this last couple of weeks.The thing I really like about Gundogan is how mobile and aggressive he is, actually. Wilshere's got that bit more aggression but he gives away a lot of stupid fouls because of that.
I didn't say we should copy them, all I said was I'd like to see us adopt a pressing game. We were a well-drilled unit against Madrid, everyone knew their roles and we pressed intelligently (but intermittently). I'd just like to see that taken up a notch. Bayern had to do the same just to compete with Dortmund, I'd love for us to be the first English team to get onto that personally. I'll settle for us just integrating Kagawa and van Persie into the team properly and playing more sexy one-touch football. It's not about copying Dortmund, I just want us to build on our own football. This is all I was talking about when I said we've played Dortmund-style football:
Yep. And we do produce that sort of football and those sorts of moves fairly regularly throughout the season. It's just that we don't do it systematically, and it's the defensive aspect - the high pressing - which gives you enough of the ball high enough up the pitch to do that. Our players are more than capable of it.I didn't say we should copy them, all I said was I'd like to see us adopt a pressing game. We were a well-drilled unit against Madrid, everyone knew their roles and we pressed intelligently (but intermittently). I'd just like to see that taken up a notch. Bayern had to do the same just to compete with Dortmund, I'd love for us to be the first English team to get onto that personally. I'll settle for us just integrating Kagawa and van Persie into the team properly and playing more sexy one-touch football. It's not about copying Dortmund, I just want us to build on our own football. This is all I was talking about when I said we've played Dortmund-style football:
Genuine question: do you think we could play that sort of game and still use two wingers? In my opinion that short passing game requires a more compact system due to the obvious nature of "short passes". There's no point having two players give you width if you plan to play a short pass and move game because that game relies on players keeping relatively close and providing lots of opinion. Having a winger out wide stretching play would be detrimental.The thing I really like about Gundogan is how mobile and aggressive he is, actually. Wilshere's got that bit more aggression but he gives away a lot of stupid fouls because of that.
I didn't say we should copy them, all I said was I'd like to see us adopt a pressing game. We were a well-drilled unit against Madrid, everyone knew their roles and we pressed intelligently (but intermittently). I'd just like to see that taken up a notch. Bayern had to do the same just to compete with Dortmund, I'd love for us to be the first English team to get onto that personally. I'll settle for us just integrating Kagawa and van Persie into the team properly and playing more sexy one-touch football. It's not about copying Dortmund, I just want us to build on our own football. This is all I was talking about when I said we've played Dortmund-style football:
We really aren't pressing high up the pitch at all tbh. Never have, would be class to do it more though.
That's mad. I mean, even though I'm an incurable Wilshere fan and watch him whenever possible, you'll obviously have seen more. But it strikes me that gliding past players is one of his strongest assets. He does it much more than Gundogan, who has the technical ability but not the burst of acceleration (or the inclination, a lot of the time) to do it as often. He tends to stay deeper more often, and opt for the pass rather than the run.
It's another reason I think Wilshere would suit us more, because there's always a danger that Carrick and Gundogan are a little too similar position-wise. You need someone who is going to consistently run ahead, either carrying the ball or following his passes in to the forwards. With Kagawa and Gotze then Reus and Gotze in the team, Gundogan has never needed to do that as often as Wilshere does.
Exactly. I can't think of many teams who do it less than us, to be honest. So many of the goals we conceded this season came about because we let players advance without any challenge or real pressure right onto the edge of our box. Again and again Ferdinand was one on one with players who hadn't come within a yard of another United man. And these aren't Messi and Iniesta - they're the sort of players who would never in a million years been able to cope had we pressed them as a team with the genuine intent of making a tackle.
Because that's the other problem - a lot of our players try to make up the ground, but stop once they get within a yard of the opponent. If you don't actually try and make the tackle, then you're not exerting any real pressure - the opponent can still take as long as he wants to choose a pass.