Gündogan vs. Wilshere

Brightonian said:
That's mad. I mean, even though I'm an incurable Wilshere fan and watch him whenever possible, you'll obviously have seen more. But it strikes me that gliding past players is one of his strongest assets. He does it much more than Gundogan, who has the technical ability but not the burst of acceleration (or the inclination, a lot of the time) to do it as often. He tends to stay deeper more often, and opt for the pass rather than the run.

It's another reason I think Wilshere would suit us more, because there's always a danger that Carrick and Gundogan are a little too similar position-wise. You need someone who is going to consistently run ahead, either carrying the ball or following his passes in to the forwards. With Kagawa and Gotze then Reus and Gotze in the team, Gundogan has never needed to do that as often as Wilshere does.
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Gundogan actually started of as an AM, and moved into a deeper role when Sahin left. He is more than capable of carrying the ball forward and provide penetration into the final third.

I would say they are both around the same level. Gundogan would be more realistic for us to acquire, and probably cost less as well.
 
I'd take Wishere given the choice, and I'm one of Gundogans biggest fans.

Surprised that someone earlier in the thread said that Gundogan is better at AM than Wilshere, I'd have to disagree with that.
 
Bape said:
Gundogan actually started of as an AM, and moved into a deeper role when Sahin left. He is more than capable of carrying the ball forward and provide penetration into the final third.
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All true. But he doesn't beat a man from standing nearly as often as Wilshere does. He'll beat them by being part of fluid passing moves, running on to another player's lay-off or pass. But Wilshere has this knack of recovering the ball and immediately taking one or two opponents out of the game with his first couple of touches, bursting away from them.

The Brazil match has a couple of good examples.

 
Pexbo said:
Genuine question: do you think we could play that sort of game and still use two wingers? In my opinion that short passing game requires a more compact system due to the obvious nature of "short passes". There's no point having two players give you width if you plan to play a short pass and move game because that game relies on players keeping relatively close and providing lots of opinion. Having a winger out wide stretching play would be detrimental.
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Two out and out wingers? Probably not, but then our best football in the last decade came in 2006 with Giggs tucking in and Ronaldo pushing high up the pitch rather than with two out and out wingers. That's pretty much exactly how Bayern set up yesterday with Ribery and Robben and Kuba plays as a winger for Dortmund. I think we could play that way with Valencia and Welbeck, for example.

Brightonian said:
That's mad. I mean, even though I'm an incurable Wilshere fan and watch him whenever possible, you'll obviously have seen more. But it strikes me that gliding past players is one of his strongest assets. He does it much more than Gundogan, who has the technical ability but not the burst of acceleration (or the inclination, a lot of the time) to do it as often. He tends to stay deeper more often, and opt for the pass rather than the run.

It's another reason I think Wilshere would suit us more, because there's always a danger that Carrick and Gundogan are a little too similar position-wise. You need someone who is going to consistently run ahead, either carrying the ball or following his passes in to the forwards. With Kagawa and Gotze then Reus and Gotze in the team, Gundogan has never needed to do that as often as Wilshere does.
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I think you're making stuff up about Gundogan to be honest. He's definitely got that burst of acceleration. Wilshere averages 2.6 dribbles per game, Gundogan 2.4. You don't need the numbers to see that Gundogan does this on a regular basis anyway. Using your logic since Gundogan dribbles almost as much in a team that requires him to dribble less he must be more inclined that way than even Wilshere. I don't think that's quite the case and I do think Wilshere's the better dribbler but there's not this huge difference. It just seems like something people are clinging onto to say "but...but Wilshere can do this better, see". The success of these two young German teams puts the Wilshere hype in perspective really, as it was always going to. The English media would go crazy over Gotze and Gundogan given how they worshipped Wilshere.

Isn't it a bit weird to be a fanboy of an opposition team's player anyway? :confused:
 
Wilshere won't even get close to his potential if he can't shake off his constant injuries. Gundogan will be the much better player in 5 or 6 years time, for me.
 
What is Gundogan's injury record like? I know that this season he has started less than 25 games in the league.
 
Brightonian said:
Wilshere. Gundogan does it in a unit whose team-play, work ethic and coaching are truly phenomenal. There are a couple of fairly average players looking exceptional because of it, and Gundogan is an exceptional player looking even more so. I just don't think he'd shine like this in our backing-off, neither-here-not-there approach to midfielding.

Of course, it's like asking a man dying of hunger if he wants a roast turkey or a roast goose. Either of them would be a phenomenal addition.
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Out of interest, which players are you referring to as 'fairly average'?.

No-one in that Dortmund side really stands out as average to me. Bender, Schmelzer and Blaszczykowski are probably some of the weaker players but I wouldn't say any of them are average at all.
 
Brightonian said:
Just for the rush of it:

Carrick Gundogan
Wilshere
Rooney Kagawa
RVP​

Who the feck needs wingers now, eh?
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Pexbo said:
Manchester+United's+coach+Alex+Ferguson+attends+a+news+conference+after+a+friendly+soccer+match+against+Shanghai+Shenhua+at+the+Shanghai+Stadium+in+Shanghai
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:lol:
 
Cevno said:
Tbf, Wilshere put in a Awesome performance against Barcelona in the 2010/11 season as a 18/19 year old when Barca was having a very good season. And he has also done well for England so far.

I think Gundogan has overtaken him now in terms of consistency because of his Injury problems though. Won't say there is much in it.
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That performance of Wilshere's is very overrated. He was good and showed some moments of class, but it wasn't all that. Gundohan has been consistently top notch for Dortmund for a team that is genuinely challenging for big honors. Wilshere is a lot more potential rather than proven as is made out. He's not like a Bale who has had consistent periods (or seasons) of quality performances.
 
Brightonian said:
All true. But he doesn't beat a man from standing nearly as often as Wilshere does. He'll beat them by being part of fluid passing moves, running on to another player's lay-off or pass. But Wilshere has this knack of recovering the ball and immediately taking one or two opponents out of the game with his first couple of touches, bursting away from them.

The Brazil match has a couple of good examples.

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It's a good quality to have but it's not everything. Xavi doesn't have that ability to glide past players either but Wilshere will never be on his level.

Gundohan simply does the more important thing better - control matches of football. It's all well and good drifting past players but it's not as if Wilshere gets a whole lot of assists and goals. Gundohan is pretty excellent with the ball at his feet anyway.
 
I think a lot of people are underestimating the ability of Gundogan running with the ball or his pace. He is more than capable of making those forward runs and he also intercepts well. Maybe not the flashy hardcore slide tackles but he still wins the ball and has good technique when he has the ball at his feet.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
That performance of Wilshere's is very overrated. He was good and showed some moments of class, but it wasn't all that. Gundohan has been consistently top notch for Dortmund for a team that is genuinely challenging for big honors. Wilshere is a lot more potential rather than proven as is made out. He's not like a Bale who has had consistent periods (or seasons) of quality performances.
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No-one except idiots who watch him on highlight reels after a good day believe he's even close to 'proven'.

As for the game against Barca, he did plenty more than you would expect of a 19 year old in his debut season against possibly the best midfield the world will see for some time.
 
Wilshere because he is just simply more talented.. Your talking about a World best here... Why is this a debate.. Gundogan is as good as f*&k though.
 
Kid Cunto said:
“I know there was an offer for me,” the player said. “But who put in the offer was of no big interest to me.”

That was on apparent interest for Gündogan from United. I don't think much of these German young players have any interest in moving to England and the Premier League.
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Most of them dream of Bayern. And Bayern can afford them at the moment
 
Gundogan is probably more suited to the deeper role than Wilshere. He looks a lot more level-headed and matured in his play.

Wilshere, on the other-hand, IMO is more talented. He has the drive, arrogance and the dribbling ability but right now he is temperamental and injury-prone. The few times I've see him this season, he really showed his age in the CM role. He was losing possession deep in his own half, dribbling into blind corners, making terrible decisions etc. If he sorts himself out, I think he can become a more complete midfielder.
 
Most of this forum forum last week "Gundogan? Who?"
 
Kid Cunto said:
“I know there was an offer for me,” the player said. “But who put in the offer was of no big interest to me.”

That was on apparent interest for Gündogan from United. I don't think much of these German young players have any interest in moving to England and the Premier League.
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"I admit it is not that easy to play down seeing yourself linked to Manchester United in newspapers, but I feel I am doing OK with that," he told Sportinformationsdienst.

"I am focused on doing well in my games for Nurnberg and do not give that much away on which club is actually looking at me.

"Playing at Nurnberg is a good thing for me to develop further as a player.

"But of course, playing for Manchester United would be a great thing to do one day."
 
Brwned said:
"I admit it is not that easy to play down seeing yourself linked to Manchester United in newspapers, but I feel I am doing OK with that," he told Sportinformationsdienst.

"I am focused on doing well in my games for Nurnberg and do not give that much away on which club is actually looking at me.

"Playing at Nurnberg is a good thing for me to develop further as a player.

"But of course, playing for Manchester United would be a great thing to do one day."
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We can dream :drool:
 
Donaldo said:
No-one except idiots who watch him on highlight reels after a good day believe he's even close to 'proven'.

As for the game against Barca, he did plenty more than you would expect of a 19 year old in his debut season against possibly the best midfield the world will see for some time.
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I agree with that.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
It's a good quality to have but it's not everything. Xavi doesn't have that ability to glide past players either but Wilshere will never be on his level.

Gundohan simply does the more important thing better - control matches of football. It's all well and good drifting past players but it's not as if Wilshere gets a whole lot of assists and goals. Gundohan is pretty excellent with the ball at his feet anyway.
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How can you know that? Wilshere is a better player than Xavi was at the same age and has already performed admirably when facing him when xavi was arguably at the peak of his powers.

It's obviously unlikely he'll be as good as Xavi but it's hardly set in stone.
 
Care_de_Bobo said:
How can you know that? Wilshere is a better player than Xavi was at the same age and has already performed admirably when facing him when xavi was arguably at the peak of his powers.

It's obviously unlikely he'll be as good as Xavi but it's hardly set in stone.
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Well, of course it isn't, but the chances are higher than Welbeck will become better than Henry than Wilshere becoming better than Xavi. Xavi is probably the best playmaker of all time, doubt that we will see anything like that for some time.
 
Not only Wednesday night, but Gündogan has excelled in pretty much every game Dortmund have played this CL season - bar Malaga.

He was also sublime in Germany's friendly against France earlier this year.
 
Brightonian said:
All true. But he doesn't beat a man from standing nearly as often as Wilshere does. He'll beat them by being part of fluid passing moves, running on to another player's lay-off or pass. But Wilshere has this knack of recovering the ball and immediately taking one or two opponents out of the game with his first couple of touches, bursting away from them.

The Brazil match has a couple of good examples.

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Gundogan can do it, he has good acceleration and has that low centre of gravity . That little 3 man dribble against madrid at about 62 minutes showed exactly what he can do.

The fact is though Wilshere plays in a 3 man midfield who always has cover, if he dribbles and loses the ball he has backup to help. If Gundogan tries dribbling passed a player and loses it the attack are countering straight at the defence.

It isnt Gundogans job to dribble, its to lay the ball off to Reus/Gotze/Kuba/Lewanowski.
 
Adam-Utd said:
Gundogan can do it, he has good acceleration and has that low centre of gravity . That little 3 man dribble against madrid at about 62 minutes showed exactly what he can do.

The fact is though Wilshere plays in a 3 man midfield who always has cover, if he dribbles and loses the ball he has backup to help. If Gundogan tries dribbling passed a player and loses it the attack are countering straight at the defence.

It isnt Gundogans job to dribble, its to lay the ball off to Reus/Gotze/Kuba/Lewanowski.
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I'm not saying that Gundogan can't do it, just that because of the type of player he is, he doesn't do it as often as Wilshere, who seems to be able to lose a couple of players almost every time he gets the ball.

And I don't think you can bring the three man midfield thing in favour of Gundogan. Dortmund play a three man midfield too. Just because he plays a different role in it (most of the time, since we know that Gundogan can play in the AM slot if necessary just as Wilshere can play at the base of midfield) doesn't mean his job is any more difficult.
 
Brightonian said:
I'm not saying that Gundogan can't do it, just that because of the type of player he is, he doesn't do it as often as Wilshere, who seems to be able to lose a couple of players almost every time he gets the ball.

And I don't think you can bring the three man midfield thing in favour of Gundogan. Dortmund play a three man midfield too. Just because he plays a different role in it (most of the time, since we know that Gundogan can play in the AM slot if necessary just as Wilshere can play at the base of midfield) doesn't mean his job is any more difficult.
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Thats like saying we play a 3 man midfield - when Kagawa plays in the number 10 role for us he does exactly the same job as he did for Dortmund.

Wilshere at Arsenal usually plays the further forward of the midfield, with Arteta being the anchor. He has the license to dribble as he wishes, something he does excel at.

i think if you gave Gundogan a shield in Kehl or Bender he could do a similar thing.
 
Wilshere by a mile


I base this on the fact that until last month i hadnt even heard of Gundogan
 
Brwned said:
The thing I really like about Gundogan is how mobile and aggressive he is, actually. Wilshere's got that bit more aggression but he gives away a lot of stupid fouls because of that.



I didn't say we should copy them, all I said was I'd like to see us adopt a pressing game. We were a well-drilled unit against Madrid, everyone knew their roles and we pressed intelligently (but intermittently). I'd just like to see that taken up a notch. Bayern had to do the same just to compete with Dortmund, I'd love for us to be the first English team to get onto that personally. I'll settle for us just integrating Kagawa and van Persie into the team properly and playing more sexy one-touch football. It's not about copying Dortmund, I just want us to build on our own football. This is all I was talking about when I said we've played Dortmund-style football:

25soeo3.jpg.gif
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We already have Cleverley who puts in a shift in midfield whenever he plays, so it actually quite silly to think that Gundogan is the missing piece in the puzzle that will bring our pressing game up a notch.

To me, the "old guards" in the defence needs to be replaced with younger bloods. Defenders like Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra have been in the team for years, and at their age, they will be exposed greatly if we employ a high-intensity pressing game. The Dortmund CBs play an extremely high line all the time and usually can be seen closing down opponents in their half before rushing back to defence. I don't think the likes of Ferdinand and Vidic have the legs for that anymore. They are good when the line is deep and they can use their experience and guile for excellent box defending. If they gets drawn out of the box and drawn in a ground duel with the attackers, they will suffer badly.

I'd like the see more of the Evans/Smalling partnership next season. Smalling have gone off the radar this season. Hopefully next season will be an injury-free one for him.
 
Cleverley doesn't possess the range of short and long passing Gündogan's so good at. He is also excellent at getting out of difficult positions, especially if the opponent's midfielder press early and with high intensity. This is a vital skill to have if you're to stand a chance against the very top teams.

IMO, he is a much more rounded version of Cleverley, who I also rate very highly. I like this type of midfielder, the one, who is mobile and is constantly on the move, looking for a quick one-two (as seen in the GIF).

A midfield-two of Carrick & Gündogan would work very well - but one can only dream, right?
 
Freak said:
Wow. Just wow. It's the sort of play you always do in Fifa games and wonder why United don't play like that in real life. :D
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Agreed, the pace and accuracy of their passing is incredible. They carve teams to bits with 1-2s and accurate through balls, it really is amazing football.
 
Dortmund play by far the best football in he world, and yes that video really shows that we haven't seen nearly the best of Kagawa yet for United.

Buy all Dortmund midfielders!
 
I think I have made up my mind as to who I want. Its has to Gündogan especially after watching him mature over the course of this season and the two brilliant performances he put in against Madrid.
 
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