Get rid of VAR NOW! We want our game back! (...or not, some are happy)

VAR - Love or Hate?


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sullydnl

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They used Dier's knee when it wasn't the body part of his that was the furthest ahead but they applied that for the Sheffield player
It wasn't the furthest part of his body based on the perspective of that particular camera angle. That doesn't mean it wasn't actually the furthest forward part of his body. Their decision isn't based on that camera angle.
 

sullydnl

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How can you know for sure ?
Me personally? I can't tell, I don't have access to multiple camera angles and 3D imaging software. They do though. Which makes them many, many, many times more accurate than someone looking at that image and saying "well, it doesn't look offside to me", as if all offsides should look offside regardless of the camera angle.
 

kouroux

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Me personally? I can't tell, I don't have access to multiple camera angles and 3D imaging software. They do though. Which makes them many, many, many times more accurate than someone looking at that image and saying "well, it doesn't look offside to me", as if all offsides should look offside regardless of the camera angle.
I really doubt them, we are talking about clowns who have been botching decisions decisions on a regular basis. Allow me to be skeptical
 

Zlatan 7

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Me personally? I can't tell, I don't have access to multiple camera angles and 3D imaging software. They do though. Which makes them many, many, many times more accurate than someone looking at that image and saying "well, it doesn't look offside to me", as if all offsides should look offside regardless of the camera angle.
do these images the var team use get released to us mere fans?
 

NinjaFletch

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For a start you're using the wrong image. If the lines aren't blue and red it isn't the one they made the call on.

Second, you have to bear in mind the perspective of the camera you're looking at it from and how that translates onto a 2D image. They have multiple cameras, you don't.

Thirdly, they base their decision on 3D imaging software, not hand drawn lines.
They literally drop the points they measure from on by hand. There's a Hawkeye video showing the process, it's not a secret.
 

Schneckerl

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Me personally? I can't tell, I don't have access to multiple camera angles and 3D imaging software. They do though. Which makes them many, many, many times more accurate than someone looking at that image and saying "well, it doesn't look offside to me", as if all offsides should look offside regardless of the camera angle.
They use the method we're seeing on TV.
As long as this terribly inaccurate manual linedrawing is used situation like today with should be ruled in in favor of the attacker.
 

sullydnl

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They literally drop the points they measure from on by hand. There's a Hawkeye video showing the process, it's not a secret.
They physically select the furthest point forward, using several camera angles to judge what that is. That isn't the same as the decision being based on hand drawn lines.

do these images the var team use get released to us mere fans?
They have access to cameras that we don't if that's what you mean.
 

sullydnl

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They use the method we're seeing on TV.
As long as this terribly inaccurate manual linedrawing is used situation like today with should be ruled in in favor of the attacker.
At no point are any lines manually drawn. They select reference points, the lines are drawn by the imaging software.
 

kouroux

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They use the method we're seeing on TV.
As long as this terribly inaccurate manual linedrawing is used situation like today with should be ruled in in favor of the attacker.
They obviously do otherwise why would they make them public ? If they had better angles, they would have shown it.
 

Anustart89

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I don't understand why they don't just have an offside cam on each half of the pitch that runs on a rail and tracks the last defender. That'd eliminate the ambiguity over the angle at least.
 

tob

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Exactly. What we're seeing on the TV is what they are doing at that moment.
It's true that they have more camera angles than what we're seeing, but the live drawings we see are what they base their decisions on. So there is no point in saying they have multiple camera angles and advanced software when we can see what their decision is based on.
 

dove

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When you thought refereeing couldn't get any worse in the premier league :lol: This is surely reaching non league standards, I just can't understand how they can be so bad in their job.
 

The Firestarter

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Me personally? I can't tell, I don't have access to multiple camera angles and 3D imaging software. They do though. Which makes them many, many, many times more accurate than someone looking at that image and saying "well, it doesn't look offside to me", as if all offsides should look offside regardless of the camera angle.
Can you produce any source that they are using 3d reconstruction software? At no point we've seen evidence for this from the on screen displays.
 

Zlatan 7

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They physically select the furthest point forward, using several camera angles to judge what that is. That isn't the same as the decision being based on hand drawn lines.



They have access to cameras that we don't if that's what you mean.
I mean do we get to see these camera angles they use anywhere? Apart from the one we’re shown where they look onside?

genuine now, I’d like to see what they have access to
 

AlwaysRed66

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I cannot wait for Monday on Sky Sports when Dermot 'the fool' Gallagher will be telling everyone what a wonderful decision the video ref made.
 
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Said it time and time again, if it’s not a crystal clear offside then don’t use the VAR nonsense system, for a start there’s absolutely no way they know the very exact frame a ball left a boot. It’s all a bit silly.
 

sullydnl

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Can you produce any source that they are using 3d reconstruction software? At no point we've seen evidence for this from the on screen displays.
"The Premier League (and FIFA) uses Hawk-eye 3D imaging technology, which judges offside by the part of a player's body furthest forward (excluding arms). Several cameras are used to judge the offside line.

The Hawk-eye operative will select three frames for the VAR, who will choose the one that best represents that first point. From this frame, the 3D imaging is activated."

https://www.espn.com/soccer/english-premier-league/story/3925549/the-ultimate-guide-to-var-in-the-premier-league-all-your-questions-answered?platform=amp#referrer=https://www.google.com


"In the case of offside, the RO will be able to generate a 3D line pinned to the attacker’s most advanced bodypart (arms don’t count) to give their VAR a definitive reading."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/09/var-premier-league-season

And from the Women's World Cup:

"Virtual offside lines are superimposed on the broadcast image by computer software. Angle of view, lens distortion, field curvature and many other factors are considered when calculating the true position of the these lines. The lines will be calibrated before each match by the technology provider to take into account the exact pitch dimensions and conditions on the day. The VAR team will have various tools available for determining offside positions, which have been validated in a number of tests across different venues by an independent third party using survey grade equipment."

https://football-technology.fifa.com/en/innovations/var-at-the-womens-world-cup/
 

cyberman

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Said it time and time again, if it’s not a crystal clear offside then don’t use the VAR nonsense system, for a start there’s absolutely no way they know the very exact frame a ball left a boot. It’s all a bit silly.
Of course they do. They dont use standard HD that the tv stations can only show us, they dont mess around with awkward frame rates
 

NinjaFletch

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They physically select the furthest point forward, using several camera angles to judge what that is. That isn't the same as the decision being based on hand drawn lines.
You're just quibbling a point of pedantry. The basic point, which I take it that you accept, is that this super-duper high tech system being used to detect whether player X is a micrometre offside is drawn based on human judgement, obviously aided by the use of cameras, of where the offside line is.

As is incredibly obvious, that cannot provide anywhere near the precision needed to make the judgements that it is being used to make.

I'm a support of VAR for what it's worth, but until and unless you have technology that can give you absolutely precise offside lines it obviously can not be used to make calls that are that marginal.
 

lysglimt

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Maybe offside should be changed to only count feet ? I mean who cares if his stomach or ass is 2 cm offside
 

sullydnl

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You're just quibbling a point of pedantry. The basic point, which I take it that you accept, is that this super-duper high tech system being used to detect whether player X is a micrometre offside is drawn based on human judgement, obviously aided by the use of cameras, of where the offside line is.

As is incredibly obvious, that cannot provide anywhere near the precision needed to make the judgements that it is being used to make.
It's many, many, many multiple times more accurate than basing the decision off the view of the linesman's naked eye, which has been the standard used on these exact same decisions up to now.
 

The Firestarter

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"The Premier League (and FIFA) uses Hawk-eye 3D imaging technology, which judges offside by the part of a player's body furthest forward (excluding arms). Several cameras are used to judge the offside line.

The Hawk-eye operative will select three frames for the VAR, who will choose the one that best represents that first point. From this frame, the 3D imaging is activated."

https://www.espn.com/soccer/english-premier-league/story/3925549/the-ultimate-guide-to-var-in-the-premier-league-all-your-questions-answered?platform=amp#referrer=https://www.google.com


"In the case of offside, the RO will be able to generate a 3D line pinned to the attacker’s most advanced bodypart (arms don’t count) to give their VAR a definitive reading."

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/aug/09/var-premier-league-season

And from the Women's World Cup:

"Virtual offside lines are superimposed on the broadcast image by computer software. Angle of view, lens distortion, field curvature and many other factors are considered when calculating the true position of the these lines. The lines will be calibrated before each match by the technology provider to take into account the exact pitch dimensions and conditions on the day. The VAR team will have various tools available for determining offside positions, which have been validated in a number of tests across different venues by an independent third party using survey grade equipment."

https://football-technology.fifa.com/en/innovations/var-at-the-womens-world-cup/
If this is indeed true, then their presentation is really deceiving. They should be regenerating the field as in tennis and showing the scene from a virtual camera that is directly in the offside line and thus not suffering from the perspective projection the main cameras are. But I guess they cannot do a full reconstruction with the available cameras.
 

cyberman

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Maybe offside should be changed to only count feet ? I mean who cares if his stomach or ass is 2 cm offside
Do you realise how far offside that is?
Officials always tried to judge it by cms to the point they guessed or flagged very tight decisions.
This isnt new and there isnt much wrong with it
 

NinjaFletch

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It's many, many, many multiple times more accurate than basing the decision off the view of the linesman's naked eye, which has been the standard used on these exact same decisions up to now.
Sure, but it's not perfect and treating it like it is erodes support and good will - as we have seen over the past weeks. The solution is not easy, but probably involves acknowledging a margin of error and giving the benefit of the doubt to the attacker if the call is inside it.
 

sullydnl

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Sure, but it's not perfect and treating it like it is erodes support and good will - as we have seen over the past weeks. The solution is not easy, but probably involves acknowledging a margin of error and giving the benefit of the doubt to the attacker if the call is inside it.
I think that would be doable, if people really want that margin of error. As in if there's any overlap between the red and blue lines (which correspond to Xcm each) then the on-field decision stands, or advantage goes to the attacker.

Though there would inevitably then be complaints when an offside wasn't given because it fell inside the margin of error, questions raised about whether the width of the offside lines are really accurate and continued complaints that it doesn't actually look offside to the naked eye.
 

Bobski

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I think that would be doable, if people really want that margin of error. As in if there's any overlap between the red and blue lines (which correspond to Xcm each) then the on-field decision stands, or advantage goes to the attacker.

Though there would inevitably then be complaints when an offside wasn't given because it fell inside the margin of error, questions raised about whether the width of the offside lines are really accurate and continued complaints that it doesn't actually look offside to the naked eye.
There are plenty of LBW calls in cricket that are hitting the stumps on Hawkeye but given how the system works are ruled not out through the umpires call clause.
 

sullydnl

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There are plenty of LBW calls in cricket that are hitting the stumps on Hawkeye but given how the system works are ruled not out through the umpires call clause.

I should say that I've never watched cricket so I don't understand anything in either your post or that tweet.
 

reddev3

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I voted hate but that is only for the Prem, I love it in the games where the Ref is told to check the screens at the side of the pitch.
 

cyberman

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Lineman just gave offside based on inches.
Hes supposed to wait, and if he did, there would be a shitshow on here about margins.
I wish we knew what the linesman would give if it were up to him on each decisions that they leave. It would clear up so much
 

sullydnl

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Lineman just gave offside based on inches.
Hes supposed to wait, and if he did, there would be a shitshow on here about margins.
I wish we knew what the linesman would give if it were up to him on each decisions that they leave. It would clear up so much
We do, I think?

As far as I'm aware the linesman has to make a call on every offside decision. The question is whether they wait to do it or not. For example, on the Firmino call last week the linesman flagged offside once the play was over.
 

cyberman

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We do, I think?

As far as I'm aware the linesman has to make a call on every offside decision. The question is whether they wait to do it or not. For example, on the Firmino call last week the linesman flagged offside once the play was over.
Thought he flagged before the ball went in?
If true I never knew that, I thought they just left tight decisions to VAR and that was that.
Weird how thats never brought up
 

A-man

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When an offside is this tight I doubt it is possible to measure at the exact milli second the ball left the foot.
 

Annihilate Now!

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We do, I think?

As far as I'm aware the linesman has to make a call on every offside decision. The question is whether they wait to do it or not. For example, on the Firmino call last week the linesman flagged offside once the play was over.
I think a system like this - where it's a bit like umpires call in cricket - and the linesman either flags or doesn't flag and then if the offside isn't obvious it reverts to their decision, could work well.
 

Dick Dastardly

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VAR is beginning to look like a pension scheme for crap referees.

It is not solving anything, it is not providing correct decisions, it’s a joke. It’s a joke destroying football but probably making some refs/ex refs wealthy.
 
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