[ti vu]

I responded to every comment. I used multi-quotes clearly.



The point is that there was a club interested in him. It has also previously been reported that West Ham and Newcastle may have been interested. If clubs exist that are interested in Jones there will almost certainly be clubs interested in Maguire, based purely on talent. This is not a contentious thing to say. Phil Jones has played something only a handful of games in several seasons.



I am not sure what you are referring too. I have simply said that:
1) There will be foreign clubs interested in Maguire.
2) The most important factors to his sale are the player himself and the club.



I do not need to try again. Players can and do take wage cuts.



I genuinely think you are trolling here now. Your entire argument was basically "no club would be interested in Maguire" and I simply made a comment that if there are club(s) interested in Jones, there is a good chance there will be clubs interested in Maguire. I genuinely cannot decipher what point you are making here now.



Well you obviously have no basis for that argument since I made no reference to the Glazers in any of my posts.



The point is, if you cannot add anything different, then stop quoting me. I already addressed all your points using multi-quotes and answering them and your first comment is simply to say "you failed to respond", simply because you do not agree with them.

Newcastle, West Ham did not make an offer for Jones. All were rumor mill. Only concrete offer was from Bordeaux which Rangnick addressed in press conference after the loan failed to materialize.

A transfer also needs a buying club interest too (market). If not, you're looking at paying player to terminate their contract, and let the player to find their club. Is that anything remotely realistic for foreign market for a non EU CB on a top bracket wage for his position with 3 year contract?

Your "there will" is a big assumption when being applied in a realistic scenario. You add further wishful thinking assumption on Maguire would readily accept a worse contract to enable previous assumption to work. You're moving the goalpost into lala land to make the point about non existent interest on Maguire, by throwing silly incomparable transfers.

I tried give an example of your silly arguing style with the Glazer reference.

Using multi quote is very silly, and counter productive. You failed at reading comprehension with this approach of taking sentences out of a context, and try to move the goal post. You ended up with baseless silly argument. And silly argument was found fault by not only me but other posters. You're in position to say you make good argument because of that. If it's personal opinion, it works both ways.

 

[0le]

A transfer also needs a buying club interest too (market). If not, you're looking at paying player to terminate their contract, and let the player to find their club. Is that anything remotely realistic for foreign market for a non EU CB on a top bracket wage for his position with 3 year contract?

I already said that United will not sell him this summer. If he is to be sold, it will be next summer (2023) or after when he will have 2 years left on his contract.

Your "there will" is a big assumption when being applied in a realistic scenario.

Your comment that "there won't be any interest" is also an assumption.

You add further wishful thinking assumption on Maguire would readily accept a worse contract to enable previous assumption to work.

I have not said that Maguire would accept a wage reduction. I have said the decision to do so rests with him.

You're moving the goalpost into lala land to make the point about non existent interest on Maguire, by throwing silly incomparable transfers

It is not a silly comparison. Instead of providing any counterarguments, you merely retort to saying "this is silly" or "you are moving the goalposts". This alone does not actually discredit anything I have said.

I tried give an example of your silly arguing style with the Glazer reference.

Yes I understood you tried to make an analogy. The point is that I do not understand the analogy.

Using multi quote is very silly, and counter productive.

Right.

You failed at reading comprehension with this approach of taking sentences out of a context, and try to move the goal post.

You should be more careful about how you address other posters.

You ended up with baseless silly argument. And silly argument was found fault by not only me but other posters. You're in position to say you make good argument because of that. If it's personal opinion, it works both ways.

The argument is not silly. You claim that "no foreign clubs would be interested in Maguire". Maguire is an English international, who was in the team of the year of the tournament in Euro 2020 (about six months ago) and had a decent season last year too. But for some reason you think it is more likely he would attract zero interest from foreign clubs?

What is more likely. A player attracting zero interest or a player attracting some interest?

 

[jeff gurr]

It's a Manchester United problem that they overpay players & then very few teams can afford the contracts. Why would Harry take less money to play some where else.
He hit the gravy train ! Why walk away.

 

[ti vu]

I am not sure what your reference about Metz is about, other than to be deliberately ridiculous to make a point.

I am not really sure if we can or cannot sell him. The other poster simply said words to the effect of "no foreign club would be interested in Maguire" and I disagreed with that comment.

I believe there will be interest in him but the key stumbling blocks to any sale is Maguire himself (potentially taking any wage cuts and desire to move) and the selling fee which the board puts up.

Just because I believe a club would be interested in him does not mean I also believe a sale will be easy. Secondly, just because a club is interested in a player does not mean the club think they can easily attain that player.

We can go back and fourth about the wages themselves, but I have reiterated several times that any decision on wage cuts is up to the player and I have no idea how Maguire would respond to that. The only reason I mentioned earlier his wage not being "too high" is mainly because there is typically variability in reporting of wages, particularly for United. I mentioned this because I remember reading about Martial's transfer, who was reported to be on £250k/week by MEN and this figure was something I think many fans believed but the BBC then reported his wages are around £150k/week:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...s/man-united-anthony-martial-sevilla-22864444
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59811365

You keep hypothetically create fantasy about clubs in the world would become interested in Maguire, but when somebody else hypothetically mentioned Metz, you then cry wolf...

You're now moving the goal post to accept the tough situation regarding a realistic move for Maguire overseas. Making my point.

 

[0le]

You keep hypothetically create fantasy about clubs in the world would become interested in Maguire, but when somebody else hypothetically mentioned Metz, you then cry wolf...

It is not crying wolf. Maguire is a seasoned international player. The type of clubs interested in him will be teams such as Sevilla, A. Madrid, Juventus, Milan, Roma etc. As far as I am aware, Metz are just a random club.

You're now moving the goal post to accept the tough situation regarding a realistic move for Maguire overseas. Making my point.

Saying "foreign clubs will be interested in Maguire" is not the same as saying "a transfer will be easy or will happen". I was pretty clear and clarified all my points. All you have done is criticise my posting style, criticised my reading comprehension, called persistently my arguments "silly" and accused me persistently of "moving the "goalposts" even though it is clear you do not know what the latter phrase means.

Your point was never "it is a tough situation regarding a realistic move for Maguire overseas". Your point was "no foreign clubs would be interested in Maguire" which has a subtle difference.

 

[ti vu]

I already said that United will not sell him this summer. If he is to be sold, it will be next summer (2023) or after when he will have 2 years left on his contract.



Your comment that "there won't be any interest" is also an assumption.



I have not said that Maguire would accept a wage reduction. I have said the decision to do so rests with him.



It is not a silly comparison. Instead of providing any counterarguments, you merely retort to saying "this is silly" or "you are moving the goalposts". This alone does not actually discredit anything I have said.



Yes I understood you tried to make an analogy. The point is that I do not understand the analogy.



Right.



You should be more careful about how you address other posters.



The argument is not silly. You claim that "no foreign clubs would be interested in Maguire". Maguire is an English international, who was in the team of the year of the tournament in Euro 2020 (about six months ago) and had a decent season last year too. But for some reason you think it is more likely he would attract zero interest from foreign clubs?

What is more likely. A player attracting zero interest or a player attracting some interest?

We sold Lukaku, Di Maria and also removed Sanchez from the books. Finding him a suitable buyer is not nearly as big an issue as it is being made out.

No where to be seen in your initial post which I replied to about your summer 2023 argument.

You only attempted to move the goal post few posts ago, and now crying wolf.

A player can stop being a starter for their NT. Even stop being called up when they're in poor form. Maguire is in poor form right now. What gives you confidence for summer 2023 other than assumption by turning an blind eye on what happening right now? It can get worse given Rangnick acknowledge Maguire struggle with the new style. His previous "good" mean little to nothing because thing is now different.

A player can attract no interest from anyone on his current contract. For example Diego Costa. Nobody wanted him, and continued to be the case for months after his contract termination in December 2020. Take over half a year for him to join a Atletico Mineiro after becoming free agent, too.

Saying that it's extreme scenario, which to answer your silly argument. Realistically, Maguire unlikely accept a wage cut, so no rich foreign clubs are interested for this expensive signing who is new to their league in realistic scenario.

Feel free to get a moderator to look into this. I don't see I violate any forum rule. Personal opinion can go both ways. I counter your post. If you have other ideas, it's the problem with your sensitivity level.

 

[ti vu]

It is not crying wolf. Maguire is a seasoned international player. The type of clubs interested in him will be teams such as Sevilla, A. Madrid, Juventus, Milan, Roma etc. As far as I am aware, Metz are just a random club.



Saying "foreign clubs will be interested in Maguire" is not the same as saying "a transfer will be easy or will happen". I was pretty clear and clarified all my points. All you have done is criticise my posting style, criticised my reading comprehension, called persistently my arguments "silly" and accused me persistently of "moving the "goalposts" even though it is clear you do not know what the latter phrase means.

Your point was never "it is a tough situation regarding a realistic move for Maguire overseas". Your point was "no foreign clubs would be interested in Maguire" which has a subtle difference.

Now you finally put your head out and actually naming clubs. Then I can tell that you just confirmed my point further.

From those clubs you listed. Only Juventus and Atletico Madrid are the teams capable of paying Maguire kind a wage to their defender. Juventus often finding themselves busy working around non EU players restriction. As explained with Luis Suarez situation. They move Cristian Romero, Demitral on recently for the same non EU player restriction reason. They can attract young defenders with high potential and good resell value. They're not short of option to pick veteran international on cheaper wage too. Why should they want Maguire?

Milan lost Donnarumma because they couldn't afford his 10mil euro wage demand. That should be the same wage bracket Maguire is on. They could have offered Donnarumma that and sell him a year on. Why didn't they do? The answer lies with the fact that they don't to break their wage structure and forced to give raise to the whole squad with immediate aftermath. Unrealistic for them to take in Maguire who borderline no resell value.

Roma outright can't afford Maguire. They gamble on Tammy because he's an attacker, and with a buy back clause. They were desperate to balance the book that they had to sell Dzeko to Inter to get few millions and save his wage, despite he's very useful.

Atletico Madrid has better defenders, and their defenders are not on this high wage. Sevilla is even cheaper when it comes to their wage. Remind me how much Kounde is on? Sevilla is specialist on getting these bargain deal, not that they're a luxurious dump yard for big clubs.

My point was always about realistic situation. You're the only one in this discussion ever moving the goalpost to try to cover for your silly argument. We're not in fantasy football thread.

 

[0le]

No where to be seen in your initial post which I replied to about your summer 2023 argument.

So are you suggesting that all my thoughts can only be expressed in one and only one post now?

You only attempted to move the goal post few posts ago, and now crying wolf.

Clarifying one's position is not "moving the goalposts". My position has been clear.

"Crying wolf" - Where specifically have I lied about there being a problem?

A player can stop being a starter for their NT. Even stop being called up when they're in poor form. Maguire is in poor form right now. What gives you confidence for summer 2023 other than assumption by turning an blind eye on what happening right now? It can get worse given Rangnick acknowledge Maguire struggle with the new style. His previous "good" mean little to nothing because thing is now different.

The same confidence which gives you the idea that not a single foreign club would be interested in Maguire?

A player can attract no interest from anyone on his current contract. For example Diego Costa. Nobody wanted him, and continued to be the case for months after his contract termination in December 2020. Take over half a year for him to join a Atletico Mineiro after becoming free agent, too. Saying that it's extreme scenario, which to answer your silly argument. Realistically, Maguire unlikely accept a wage cut, so no rich foreign clubs are interested for this expensive signing who is new to their league in realistic scenario.

Sevilla were interested in Martial but were only willing to pay initially half his salary. So this is a clear counter-example where a team can express interest in a player, regardless of their contract.

The point about Sanchez can also be argued both ways. Where there is a desire to move a player and/or the player wishes to move, a solution can be found with regards to the player's wages.

Feel free to get a moderator to look into this. I don't see I violate any forum rule. Personal opinion can go both ways. I counter your post. If you have other ideas, it's the problem with your sensitivity level.

You are making a lot of your replies by simply attacking the poster. When is it appropriate to say someone "lacks reading comprehension"? You repeatedly criticised me for not responding to your points and then when I responded to each one sequentially, you then criticised me for using multi-quotes. Do you think that is appropriate? Now you are saying I am "sensitive" rather than just actually apologising for coming across in an immature way.

Now you finally put your head out and actually naming clubs. Then I can tell that you just confirmed my point further.

From those clubs you listed. Only Juventus and Atletico Madrid are the teams capable of paying Maguire kind a wage to their defender. Juventus often finding themselves busy working around non EU players restriction. As explained with Luis Suarez situation. They move Cristian Romero, Demitral on recently for the same non EU player restriction reason. They can attract young defenders with high potential and good resell value. They're not short of option to pick veteran international on cheaper wage too. Why should they want Maguire?

Milan lost Donnarumma because they couldn't afford his 10mil euro wage demand. That should be the same wage bracket Maguire is on. They could have offered Donnarumma that and sell him a year on. Why didn't they do? The answer lies with the fact that they don't to break their wage structure and forced to give raise to the whole squad with immediate aftermath. Unrealistic for them to take in Maguire who borderline no resell value.

Roma outright can't afford Maguire. They gamble on Tammy because he's an attacker, and with a buy back clause. They were desperate to balance the book that they had to sell Dzeko to Inter to get few millions and save his wage, despite he's very useful.

Atletico Madrid has better defenders, and their defenders are not on this high wage. Sevilla is even cheaper when it comes to their wage. Remind me how much Kounde is on? Sevilla is specialist on getting these bargain deal, not that they're a luxurious dump yard for big clubs.

I said the "type of clubs", thus well known clubs playing competitively in European competitions. That list was not to say "Juventus are definitely in for Maguire" but more to give a hint as to the type of clubs that could be interested in Maguire in the distant future.

My point was always about realistic situation. You're the only one in this discussion ever moving the goalpost to try to cover for your silly argument. We're not in fantasy football thread.

So because I have a comment which you disagree with, you now believe it is unrealistic and the evidence you provide is based on what you think their plans are come 2023 and beyond. So your predictions about those clubs are supposedly realistic, but mine are not, even though mine only relies on a handful of clubs being interested whereas you seem confident that no club would be interested.

 

[ti vu]

So are you suggesting that all my thoughts can only be expressed in one and only one post now?



Clarifying one's position is not "moving the goalposts". My position has been clear.

"Crying wolf" - Where specifically have I lied about there being a problem?



The same confidence which gives you the idea that not a single foreign club would be interested in Maguire?



Sevilla were interested in Martial but were only willing to pay initially half his salary. So this is a clear counter-example where a team can express interest in a player, regardless of their contract.

The point about Sanchez can also be argued both ways. Where there is a desire to move a player and/or the player wishes to move, a solution can be found with regards to the player's wages.



You are making a lot of your replies by simply attacking the poster. When is it appropriate to say someone "lacks reading comprehension"? You repeatedly criticised me for not responding to your points and then when I responded to each one sequentially, you then criticised me for using multi-quotes. Do you think that is appropriate? Now you are saying I am "sensitive" rather than just actually apologising for coming across in an immature way.




I said the "type of clubs", thus well known clubs playing competitively in European competitions. That list was not to say "Juventus are definitely in for Maguire" but more to give a hint as to the type of clubs that could be interested in Maguire in the distant future.



So because I have a comment which you disagree with, you now believe it is unrealistic and the evidence you provide is based on what you think their plans are come 2023 and beyond. So your predictions about those clubs are supposedly realistic, but mine are not, even though mine only relies on a handful of clubs being interested whereas you seem confident that no club would be interested.

I don't imply that. I state clearly you moved the goal post afterward trying to cover for your initial post.

Here is your second post.

Roma bought Smalling after Brexit and Bordeaux were interested in Jones. Again, stop exaggerating the idea that Maguire is unsellable and that no club would want him. It is nonsense. I get that he is becoming a meme of sorts but if we talk from a serious point of view, he is still a good player just struggling for form, confidence and maybe the pressure of being at United.

No 2023 summer here. Second post. So are you good that I am not talking about one post?

You only keep moving the goal post by starting the 2023 summer stuff with your third post.

What kind of clarifying a point that introducing an entire different discussion point into the conversation 2 post away, and each post adding more silly comparison?

Martial agent publicly informed the world his intent to leave ages ago. Then the lack of trust also signaled for everyone to see. Sevilla made a formal approach even with their half covered wage offer. It's not your " I am interested in buying Manchester United " fantasy. And it's a loan.

The desire also lies much on Conte's admiration of Sanchez. Without the buying club interest, you have players running down their contract or contract termination which ain't uncommon. Clubs don't magically afford pay wage structure breaking money for players they don't need, doesn't fit their profile.

So continue with your list please.

Inter Milan? No. Napoli? No. Atalanta? No. Lazio? No. Fiorentina? No. Valencia? No. Real Soceidad? No. Real Betis? No. Villarreal? No. No. Lyon? No. Monaco? No. Nice? No. Rennes? No. Marseille? No. Lille? No.

Which team then in your opinion? Anyone can make fantasy, and baseless assumption. It's non agurment leaving a vague "only god know" bs here. Everyone know it's unrealistic.

You're projecting. My opinion is on right now and immediate future this summer. You're moving the goal post by moving the topic into summer 2013. I never entertained your fantasy of summer 2013, so spare me with that.

 

[WR10]

So we have now resorted to accepting he is shite because our style of football exposes his weaknesses. We look really silly with our 80mil log stinking up the place now don't we

 

[ti vu]

So we have now resorted to accepting he is shite because our style of football exposes his weaknesses. We look really silly with our 80mil log stinking up the place now don't we

The scary thing is with the mention of "captain" keyword, he's likely keeping starting and playing to learn the new style... even when we try to forget about the fee.

 

[Adnan]

Tweet

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This is what frustrates me about Ole signing Maguire and AWB. Both players were unsuited to playing in a team that had aspirations of playing front football in the modern game due to also being tasked with defending on the front foot in a compact high block. I argued with numerous people on here when we signed both players, that the signings were not good due to their incompatibility for the modern game where CBs are required to maintain a high line off the ball and not retreat 20 metres upon conceding possession.

People talk about signing players who are prem proven or are experienced etc but pay little attention to the attributes of such players for the game today which places a lot of pressure on players in defensive transition. We should look at the attributes of potential in-comings along with the fundamentals to make a decision on their suitability for the modern game and not focus on experience etc if said experienced player doesn't have the physical/athletic capability to match his technical ability on the ball. A young defender performing in a high pressing team is superior to a more experienced player who doesn't have the the athletic/physical capability in a high compact block.

Klopp is piling up quick, athletic,physical players in his back line and defensive midfield area without compromising on the technical side in possession. And even though he's a excellent coach, our poor decisions in the transfer market have helped Klopp and Guardiola look better than they're. We keep appointing managers who haven't come close to implementing a modern play style, and we also then allow them too much control and even allow them to bring their own scout.

 

[TheRedHearted]

This is what frustrates me about Ole signing Maguire and AWB. Both players were unsuited to playing in a team that had aspirations of playing front football in the modern game due to also being tasked with defending on the front foot in a compact high block. I argued with numerous people on here when we signed both players, that the signings were not good due to their incompatibility for the modern game where CBs are required to maintain a high line off the ball and not retreat 20 metres upon conceding possession.

People talk about signing players who are prem proven or are experienced etc but pay little attention to the attributes of such players for the game today which places a lot of pressure on players in defensive transition. We should look at the attributes of potential in-comings along with the fundamentals to make a decision on their suitability for the modern game and not focus on experience etc if said experienced player doesn't have the physical/athletic capability to match his technical ability on the ball. A young defender performing in a high pressing team is superior to a more experienced player who doesn't have the the athletic/physical capability in a high compact block.

Klopp is piling up quick, athletic,physical players in his back line and defensive midfield area without compromising on the technical side in possession. And even though he's a excellent coach, our poor decisions in the transfer market have helped Klopp and Guardiola look better than they're. We keep appointing managers who haven't come close to implementing a modern play style, and we also then allow them too much control and even allow them to bring their own scout.

Hopefully our recruitment under Ralf is that of klopp s.
As for the @Ole and @ti vu quarrel the only thing a club would do is take him on loan to see if United is poisoning him. If he succeeds then a much lower fee of 80 million would be offered.

 

[0le]

I don't imply that. I state clearly you moved the goal post afterward trying to cover for your initial post.

Saying," Finding him a suitable buyer is not nearly as big an issue as it is being made out." is not the same as saying "Maguire is easy to sell". Again, there is a subtle difference there.

Secondly, I did not make a distinction there between PL clubs or foreign clubs.

Here is your second post.

No 2023 summer here. Second post. So are you good that I am not talking about one post?

You only keep moving the goal post by starting the 2023 summer stuff with your third post.

If you cannot understand the difference between someone clarifying or enhancing their point compared to someone "moving the goalposts" then there is nothing else to discuss.

What kind of clarifying a point that introducing an entire different discussion point into the conversation 2 post away, and each post adding more silly comparison?

The clarifying point was someone making a reference to the length of contract and therefore me saying the length of contract is not problematic because we would not sell him this summer regardless. That is not moving the goalposts but rather providing additional information about my view on the same topic.

Martial agent publicly informed the world his intent to leave ages ago. Then the lack of trust also signaled for everyone to see. Sevilla made a formal approach even with their half covered wage offer. I

I provided a counter-argument. The facts are that Sevilla came in for Martial and were only willing to initially cover half his wages. This disproves your claim that no club would be interested in a player based on their [current] contract. What an agent did or did not say does not seem relevant. The point remains that a foreign club was interested in Martial, despite his large wages.

It's not your " I am interested in buying Manchester United " fantasy. And it's a loan.

So for about the third time now, please can you explain this analogy clearly without resorting to some childish remark? What has the ownership of the Glazers got to do with anything? This is precisely the definition of "moving the goalposts". You bring up an analogy which, at least to me, has no relevance to any point you are trying to make. Even when I asked you to explain it, you repeatedly ignored to do so.

The desire also lies much on Conte's admiration of Sanchez. Without the buying club interest, you have players running down their contract or contract termination which ain't uncommon. Clubs don't magically afford pay wage structure breaking money for players they don't need, doesn't fit their profile.

The point remains that a solution was found.

So continue with your list please.

Inter Milan? No. Napoli? No. Atalanta? No. Lazio? No. Fiorentina? No. Valencia? No. Real Soceidad? No. Real Betis? No. Villarreal? No. No. Lyon? No. Monaco? No. Nice? No. Rennes? No. Marseille? No. Lille? No.

Which team then in your opinion? Anyone can make fantasy, and baseless assumption. It's non agurment leaving a vague "only god know" bs here. Everyone know it's unrealistic.

Why? How does you saying "no" counter anything? Do you realize that everything you have criticised me for, "my assumptions" can be labelled at you? The very fact that Napoli for example loaned Tuanzebe suggests they may be looking for a defender. I have already given you reasons as to why foreign clubs may be interested in Maguire. I do not need to reiterate them.

You're projecting. My opinion is on right now and immediate future this summer. You're moving the goal post by moving the topic into summer 2013. I never entertained your fantasy of summer 2013, so spare me with that.

There is some irony in how you earlier criticised my reading comprehension yet some of your sentences are often significantly grammatically incorrect which makes them difficult to read, such as the bit in bold. Even so, if I understand your final paragraph correctly, United were never going to sell Maguire this summer. That is an opinion but is based on the reasonable conclusions that Lingard, Cavani and Pogba will leave, there is doubt over Ronaldo, Matic and Bailly, whilst there is also a need to buy a striker and midfielder. Why would there be a plan to sell Maguire in the summer, given the numerous outgoings already? Can you provide any strong evidence which makes you believe there was a realistic chance of Maguire being sold this summer?

Hopefully our recruitment under Ralf is that of klopp s.
As for the @Ole and @ti vu quarrel the only thing a club would do is take him on loan to see if United is poisoning him. If he succeeds then a much lower fee of 80 million would be offered.

Ti vu would not agree with that because their position is that no foreign clubs would be interested in Maguire and from their posts above they also believe that the player wages cannot be negotiated.

 

[dave2528]

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It's fine. He's gonna trip over his own feet and cost us more points but it's okay because baby boy isn't used to a change in formation even though he's 28 goddamn years old and paid a kings ransom to play football professionally.

I'm absolutely tired of us running out under-performing players because we paid X amount for them, or because in Maguire's case, we made him captain for god knows whatever reason.

There's only so much I take of watching our futile attempts with trying to put lipstick on this pig.

 

[Oranges038]

Seems all he is missing is the extra protection of the 6 other defensive players that a 541 or a 352 can offer. Plenty of cover and places for him to hide.

 

[tenpoless]

His main strengths before he joined United : calm and composed. But now he is as headless and clumsy as the old meme face Phil Jones. I think Jones actually played better than him against Wolves. Mental.

 

[ti vu]

Saying," Finding him a suitable buyer is not nearly as big an issue as it is being made out." is not the same as saying "Maguire is easy to sell". Again, there is a subtle difference there.

Secondly, I did not make a distinction there between PL clubs or foreign clubs.



If you cannot understand the difference between someone clarifying or enhancing their point compared to someone "moving the goalposts" then there is nothing else to discuss.



The clarifying point was someone making a reference to the length of contract and therefore me saying the length of contract is not problematic because we would not sell him this summer regardless. That is not moving the goalposts but rather providing additional information about my view on the same topic.



I provided a counter-argument. The facts are that Sevilla came in for Martial and were only willing to initially cover half his wages. This disproves your claim that no club would be interested in a player based on their [current] contract. What an agent did or did not say does not seem relevant. The point remains that a foreign club was interested in Martial, despite his large wages.



So for about the third time now, please can you explain this analogy clearly without resorting to some childish remark? What has the ownership of the Glazers got to do with anything? This is precisely the definition of "moving the goalposts". You bring up an analogy which, at least to me, has no relevance to any point you are trying to make. Even when I asked you to explain it, you repeatedly ignored to do so.



The point remains that a solution was found.



Why? How does you saying "no" counter anything? Do you realize that everything you have criticised me for, "my assumptions" can be labelled at you? The very fact that Napoli for example loaned Tuanzebe suggests they may be looking for a defender. I have already given you reasons as to why foreign clubs may be interested in Maguire. I do not need to reiterate them.



There is some irony in how you earlier criticised my reading comprehension yet some of your sentences are often significantly grammatically incorrect which makes them difficult to read, such as the bit in bold. Even so, if I understand your final paragraph correctly, United were never going to sell Maguire this summer. That is an opinion but is based on the reasonable conclusions that Lingard, Cavani and Pogba will leave, there is doubt over Ronaldo, Matic and Bailly, whilst there is also a need to buy a striker and midfielder. Why would there be a plan to sell Maguire in the summer, given the numerous outgoings already? Can you provide any strong evidence which makes you believe there was a realistic chance of Maguire being sold this summer?



Ti vu would not agree with that because their position is that no foreign clubs would be interested in Maguire and from their posts above they also believe that the player wages cannot be negotiated.

You put forth your main points. Focus your next post on that. You don't continue bring wild silly comparison, excuses to change the focus of the discussion each and every next post.

Not aware that at least 4 people found issues and replying to your different posts? Yet no other argue my post.

You're only make statement. However we sugarcoating subtle difference of "is not nearly as big an issue as it is being made out." is not the same as saying "Maguire is easy to sell".", the fact remains, you yourself can't think of a club that would take Maguire.

You decide that you can move the topic to summer 2023. That's on you. I didn't entertain that idea. Agree to disagree and stop it at that, back to the now topic. But no, you on your own decided that goal post is now the goal of the discussion.

I keep repeat the moving the goal post thing, and "assume" forever now, to show your sloppy double standard to discussion. You were the one bringing "moving the goal post" and "you assume" into the conversation. Nothing else to discuss and come back every time running circle argument, and some more goal post moving argument. It's been rich all round.

Martial agent signaled that his client wanted to leave? So Sevilla tested the water with a low ball offer to us asking use to subsidize Martial wage. Big difference from telling a player to take pay cut to move. So loan is the key word. Alexis Sanchez mid season loan to Inter was the same. Which players got approached with low ball pay cut offer for permanent move? You keep your stupid interest with yourself because it's disrespectful telling a player showing no desire to leave, that you're buying them, but they're taking pay cut.

Tuanzebe is a loan. Napoli need a temporary CB after a sale of Manolas. Napoli don't pay their defender on Maguire wage. What reason would they break the wage structure for Maguire? When was the last time Napoli spend on an expensive defender?

I stated my own opinion that those club wouldn't afford Maguire with all the "no". You only beat around the bush to deflect from the very fact you can't realistically name a foreign club that would realistically afford and prefer Maguire.

My point is always that the market for Maguire is mostly PL. The reasonable approach would be looking to move him starting this summer, even on loan. Realistically he's stuck here on the payroll until his contract expiration because he's on stupid wage for his worth even he goes on multiple loans. We're already linked with 2 Dortmund CBs, Wolves Kilman. It's not like you have to spend the another 80mil to replace Maguire. Bailly is no guaranteed to leave if there is a chance to more game time when new manager arrive.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Yet bizarrely it does completely negate defensive errors from other players or abysmal goalkeeping. Both goals in the last two games could have easily been prevented if Shaw wasn't playing the opponents onside or De Gea actually tried to stop the opponents scoring, yet we've seen an additional 2 pages in both of their performances threads yet we've had 20 in the Maguire thread.

So it’s now not fair on poor Harry because there’s been more traction in his thread than in others, I think I’ve seen it all until I enter a Maguire thread.

I agree with you on Shaw in particular, who still seems to have a number of people fooled but it’s no wonder posters are finally running out of patience with this man in such a big way. . .

Maguire 2019 - 22

He’s had far more support than a number of better players have had given despite how poor he has been from pretty much the start.

 

[red4ever 79]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that pressure must be coming from above the manager to select Maguire. There can be no justification based on performances that he keeps getting selected, absolutely none.

 

[0le]

You put forth your main points. Focus your next post on that. You don't continue bring wild silly comparison, excuses to change the focus of the discussion each and every next post.

I have not changed the focus. You keep saying "moving the goalposts" now as if you think saying it repeatedly makes your points stronger.

Not aware that at least 4 people found issues and replying to your different posts? Yet no other argue my post.

What on earth do you mean I am "not aware that at least 4 people found issues..."? I quoted them and replied to them so of course I am aware. Just because no one replies to your posts does not mean that people agree with you.

You're only make statement. However we sugarcoating subtle difference of "is not nearly as big an issue as it is being made out." is not the same as saying "Maguire is easy to sell".", the fact remains, you yourself can't think of a club that would take Maguire.

I am not sugar-coating anything. You decided to intepret the statements in the way you thought was appropriate.

I also already named several clubs. I do not care whether you agree with them or not. For every club I name, you will find a reason to criticise it simply to claim that you have "won" the argument.

You decide that you can move the topic to summer 2023. That's on you. I didn't entertain that idea. Agree to disagree and stop it at that, back to the now topic. But no, you on your own decided that goal post is now the goal of the discussion.

You asked me to clarify the point:
" What kind of clarifying a point that introducing an entire different discussion point into the conversation 2 post away, and each post adding more silly comparison? "

When I then clarified it, you then criticise me and say "stop it at that". Are you being deliberately obtuse here? If you ask for something and then get it, do not criticise someone further for actually providing you with what you originally asked.

I keep repeat the moving the goal post thing, and "assume" forever now, to show your sloppy double standard to discussion. You were the one bringing "moving the goal post" and "you assume" into the conversation.

And I already explained very clearly why that was the case. You wanted to know about Bordeaux's league position and ignored the main point about Jones - a defender who has barely played in two years - actually getting interest from a foreign club. The position of the league of the club itself was irrelevant, hence "moving the goalposts" comment. Interestingly you failed to address why any club would be interested in a player who has been unable to stay fit for many many years and yet would not be interested in Maguire, a player who is objectively better if only on the basis that he can stay fit.

Nothing else to discuss and come back every time running circle argument, and some more goal post moving argument. It's been rich all round.

I explicitly asked you to not quote me again unless you had something new to add. You have repeatedly felt the need to quote me further. You say I "come back every time" so what exactly are you doing right now then? You are criticising me for something which you yourself are doing.

Martial agent signaled that his client wanted to leave? So Sevilla tested the water with a low ball offer to us asking use to subsidize Martial wage. Big difference from telling a player to take pay cut to move. So loan is the key word. Alexis Sanchez mid season loan to Inter was the same. Which players got approached with low ball pay cut offer for permanent move? You keep your stupid interest with yourself because it's disrespectful telling a player showing no desire to leave, that you're buying them, but they're taking pay cut.

You said:
" A player can attract no interest from anyone on his current contract. "

Martial and Sanchez attracted interest. Whether the deal was concluded as a loan, swap or some other fancy deal is irrelevant. The point is, they attracted interest despite their contracts. It is feasible Maguire will attract interest in the same way.

Tuanzebe is a loan. Napoli need a temporary CB after a sale of Manolas. Napoli don't pay their defender on Maguire wage. What reason would they break the wage structure for Maguire? When was the last time Napoli spend on an expensive defender?

Who said they needed to break their wage structure? A club can express interest in a player with a desire to also negotiate a lower wage.

I stated my own opinion that those club wouldn't afford Maguire with all the "no". You only beat around the bush to deflect from the very fact you can't realistically name a foreign club that would realistically afford and prefer Maguire.

I do not think you understand what "beat around the bush" means. I answered all your points. I have named several clubs already. Just because you do not agree with them does not mean I have avoided responding to your point.

My point is always that the market for Maguire is mostly PL.

No, your point seemed to suggest that no foreign clubs would be interested in Maguire. Now you are saying that it is "mostly PL" which would suggest you do believe a minority of foreign clubs would be interested in Maguire - which is exactly what I have been arguing for. So which is it?

The reasonable approach would be looking to move him starting this summer, even on loan. Realistically he's stuck here on the payroll until his contract expiration because he's on stupid wage for his worth even he goes on multiple loans. We're already linked with 2 Dortmund CBs, Wolves Kilman. It's not like you have to spend the another 80mil to replace Maguire. Bailly is no guaranteed to leave if there is a chance to more game time when new manager arrive.

This does not actually answer the question I asked, but rather answers what you would like to see happen. Can you explain why United would want to sell Maguire this summer?

 

[Roboc7]

This is what frustrates me about Ole signing Maguire and AWB. Both players were unsuited to playing in a team that had aspirations of playing front football in the modern game due to also being tasked with defending on the front foot in a compact high block. I argued with numerous people on here when we signed both players, that the signings were not good due to their incompatibility for the modern game where CBs are required to maintain a high line off the ball and not retreat 20 metres upon conceding possession.

People talk about signing players who are prem proven or are experienced etc but pay little attention to the attributes of such players for the game today which places a lot of pressure on players in defensive transition. We should look at the attributes of potential in-comings along with the fundamentals to make a decision on their suitability for the modern game and not focus on experience etc if said experienced player doesn't have the physical/athletic capability to match his technical ability on the ball. A young defender performing in a high pressing team is superior to a more experienced player who doesn't have the the athletic/physical capability in a high compact block.

Klopp is piling up quick, athletic,physical players in his back line and defensive midfield area without compromising on the technical side in possession. And even though he's a excellent coach, our poor decisions in the transfer market have helped Klopp and Guardiola look better than they're. We keep appointing managers who haven't come close to implementing a modern play style, and we also then allow them too much control and even allow them to bring their own scout.

Said the same myself, they were two players not suited to playing the type of football we supposedly aspired to play. Or if we were going to play a system and style of play that did suit them that would never have been good enough to win enough games to overhaul City and Liverpool.

Rangnick’s comments on Maguire aren’t a ringing endorsement and are effectively saying Maguire has to learn how to play a style he isn’t suited/used to. I’m hoping the plan is to expose Maguire’s limitations for the long term so it’s easier to move on, rather than just trot out cliches.

 

[Fortitude]

@0le and @ti vu this is the player performance thread: your posts are about sales and loans and should probably be in the how to sell Maguire thread, or some such, as they've not got anything to do with his performances, per se.

 

[ti vu]

I have not changed the focus. You keep saying "moving the goalposts" now as if you think saying it repeatedly makes your points stronger.



What on earth do you mean I am "not aware that at least 4 people found issues..."? I quoted them and replied to them so of course I am aware. Just because no one replies to your posts does not mean that people agree with you.



I am not sugar-coating anything. You decided to intepret the statements in the way you thought was appropriate.

I also already named several clubs. I do not care whether you agree with them or not. For every club I name, you will find a reason to criticise it simply to claim that you have "won" the argument.



You asked me to clarify the point:
" What kind of clarifying a point that introducing an entire different discussion point into the conversation 2 post away, and each post adding more silly comparison? "

When I then clarified it, you then criticise me and say "stop it at that". Are you being deliberately obtuse here? If you ask for something and then get it, do not criticise someone further for actually providing you with what you originally asked.



And I already explained very clearly why that was the case. You wanted to know about Bordeaux's league position and ignored the main point about Jones - a defender who has barely played in two years - actually getting interest from a foreign club. The position of the league of the club itself was irrelevant as, hence "moving the goalposts" comment. Interestingly you failed to address why any club would be interested in a player who has been unable to stay fit for many many years and yet would not be interested in Maguire, a player who is objectively better if only on the basis that he can stay fit.



I explicitly asked you to not quote me again unless you had something new to add. You have repeatedly felt the need to quote me further. You say I "come back every time" so what exactly are you doing right now then? You are criticising me for something which you yourself are doing.



You said:
" A player can attract no interest from anyone on his current contract. "

Martial and Sanchez attracted interest. Whether the deal was concluded as a loan, swap or some other fancy deal is irrelevant. The point is, they attracted interest despite their contracts. It is feasible Maguire will attract interest in the same way.



Who said they needed to break their wage structure? A club can express interest in a player with a desire to also negotiate a lower wage.



I do not think you understand what "beat around the bush" means. I answered all your points. I have named several clubs already. Just because you do not agree with them does not mean I have avoided responding to your point.



No, your point seemed to suggest that no foreign clubs would be interested in Maguire. Now you are suggesting that it is "mostly PL" which would suggest you do believe a minority of foreign clubs would be interested in Maguire - which is exactly what I have been saying arguing for. So which is it?



This does not actually answer the question I asked, but rather answers what you would like to see happen. Can you explain why United would want to sell Maguire this summer?

So you named the clubs already? You don't agree but have reasonable response, and here crying wolf again. You can tag our residents Milan, Juventus, Atletico Madrid, Roma fan... ask for their support of your argument. Perhaps they would be happy for the chance their clubs paying huge wage for Maguire. I will glady eat humble pies if ThatKs the case.

You went several posts further moving the goal post. Clarifying nothing, but speaking you way out of previous silly argument.

You want extreme situation. I made you an extreme example of Diego Costa. Where did I say it's general rule? You're the only one flip flop around extreme fantasy trying sugarcoating it as general rule.

There is huge difference between a simple loan, a loan with obligation of purchase, a loan with option to purchase, sale with buy back clause... to name a few. Pure Straw clutching by generalizing all situation, and approaches into one from you since it's convenient.

Keep beating around the bush now. Making statement is pointlessly tiring. Show example of club express interest in buying a player then negotiate a wage cut.

Is Scotland not considered British? Mostly PL because I think beside PL teams, only old firm would have serious interest and interest Maguire for a chance of title challenge and European football, if United would loan him and subsidize his wage.

Keeping rolling your eyes. Don't make you any smarter one bit. Look who told who first not to come back with silly argument? Still come back every time.

You have the ignore option if you don't want to be notified about being quoted. Get off your high horse please. Your argument is silly and you're in position to ask for some new, when you're moving the goal post in circle.

 

[ti vu]

@0le and @ti vu this is the player performance thread: your posts are about sales and loans and should probably be in the how to sell Maguire thread, or some such, as they've not got anything to do with his performances, per se.

Please move the related post to the correct thread if you see the need.

It was not my intentional to keep responding to same silly argument if the other poster learn how to agree to disagree and move on.

Edit: would be happy to take a thread ban too if it is fairly applied to both violating parties.

 

[Fortitude]

Please the related post to the correct thread if you see the need.

It was not my intentional to keep responding to same silly argument if the other poster learn how to agree to disagree and move on.

It's probably a worthwhile discussion to have, it's just not in the correct thread as there are numerous threads to discuss it in that were made for that purpose.

 

[ForeverRed1]

When your the most expensive defender in the world, you have to be better than van dijk, that’s the level of expectation it puts on you. The pressure and scrutiny he is going through at the moment is intense. It won’t be easy.

But the bottom line is, it’s not his fault we paid 80million for him. That’s what leicester wanted and that’s what we paid. Also not his fault we made him captain. He will believe in himself so of course he will take it. It’s being shown up at the moment as the wrong choice, so maybe he needs to admit that maybe it’s all abit much and step down from the captaincy?
Valencia did it with the number 7 shirt and he was a different player afterwards. No shame in it but his ego might stand in the way.

I think there is a good player in him, he’s not suited to the PL though. If he was fast he would actually be very good but just gets skipped past game after game, if your a quick offensive player you fancy your chances against him. You target him.

He will be another player that runs his contract down and leaves on a free, we can’t sell him with his price tag and high Wages. Somehow he has to turn things around and make this work. Who wants to be a 80million pound flop! It’s put us in a terrible place though, such a mistake all round. Not his fault.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

When your the most expensive defender in the world, you have to be better than van dijk, that’s the level of expectation it puts on you. The pressure and scrutiny he is going through at the moment is intense. It won’t be easy.

But the bottom line is, it’s not his fault we paid 80million for him. That’s what leicester wanted and that’s what we paid. Also not his fault we made him captain. He will believe in himself so of course he will take it. It’s being shown up at the moment as the wrong choice, so maybe he needs to admit that maybe it’s all abit much and step down from the captaincy?
Valencia did it with the number 7 shirt and he was a different player afterwards. No shame in it but his ego might stand in the way.

I think there is a good player in him, he’s not suited to the PL though. If he was fast he would actually be very good but just gets skipped past game after game, if your a quick offensive player you fancy your chances against him. You target him.

He will be another player that runs his contract down and leaves on a free, we can’t sell him with his price tag and high Wages. Somehow he has to turn things around and make this work. Who wants to be a 80million pound flop!

Aren't those two statements at odds with one another?

 

[ForeverRed1]

Aren't those two statements at odds with one another?

no, I’m talking in terms of expectation. He can’t actually help the fact he isn’t better than him.. but it’s what you’d expect for a 80million pound player.

his capabilities and our expectations are two different things.

 

[Mike Smalling]

He will be another player that runs his contract down and leaves on a free, we can’t sell him with his price tag and high Wages. Somehow he has to turn things around and make this work. Who wants to be a 80million pound flop! It’s put us in a terrible place though, such a mistake all round. Not his fault.

I disagree we can't sell him. First of all, we set the price tag - the £80m is all in the past now. As for the wages, that may be an issue, but there are ways around that as well. We could pay part of his wages to a new club, for example. It could also be that he was willing to go down in wages, if he wasn't playing regularly.

If management was motivated to sell him they could. I don't believe they are though, unfortunately. It is much more likely that he will get a contract extension, the way this club is run.

 

[Foxbatt]

It's seems fashionable to slate him. But he is not the biggest problem we have. We have much bigger issues with our midfield and our forwards.

 

[JB7]

So it’s now not fair on poor Harry because there’s been more traction in his thread than in others, I think I’ve seen it all until I enter a Maguire thread.

I agree with you on Shaw in particular, who still seems to have a number of people fooled but it’s no wonder posters are finally running out of patience with this man in such a big way. . .

I'm just using it as a metric to show that errors are not treated in equal measure by sections of our fanbase. Heck, while he had a poor game vs Southampton he was probably the least culpable of the four defenders and goalkeeper (possibly even the manager too given we sat down at half time and said we need to stop them getting in behind the full-backs, lo and behold 3 minutes into the second half that's how they scored) for their goal but it's still him that cops all the stick. No one is saying he's not been poor or defending him per se but it's bizarre how the blame for almost everything lands on his head even when there are others at fault.

 

[TSE123]

You'd take a Ballon D'Or winning defender over Harry Maguire, well I never!

Haha.

 

[Alejandro Angel]

It's seems fashionable to slate him. But he is not the biggest problem we have. We have much bigger issues with our midfield and our forwards.

I am not sure that he is not the biggest problem, at the moment. He has been one of the players who has been putting in the worst performances consistently this season.
Yes the midfield have problems and the attacking players have missed chances to provide for others or score themselves but have they been in as poor form as Maguire.
The last acceptable performance was against West Ham, and that has been an isolated occurrence this season. He has been criticised here because his performances have been very poor, he has had excuses made for him, like he needs a better partner or he needs shielded by a defensive midfielder.
He is the manchester united captain and needs to take responsibility for his and the teams performances, not hide behind the problems of the midfield or the attacking talent. I have not seen that on the pitch, I cannot comment on training as we don't know how he is conducting himself and I do not know who is leaking to the press so I am not going to blame him for that.
What I do want is ownership of your own performances first and foremost, then you can lead the team.
I think Maguire has been poor, he is certainly much better than his current form, I think a spell on the sidelines working himself back to form would be best for all concerned.

 

[RedDevil@84]

It's seems fashionable to slate him. But he is not the biggest problem we have. We have much bigger issues with our midfield and our forwards.

So pedestrian performance by our captain, first choice CB is ok but pedestrian performance by midfield and forwards is not ok. Isn't defense a critical part of the team now? Or are we going down the "you score 1, we'll score 2" route?

 

[spiriticon]

It's seems fashionable to slate him. But he is not the biggest problem we have. We have much bigger issues with our midfield and our forwards.

I personally do think he is the biggest problem we have...

 

[red4ever 79]

Andy Cole just going in on him, saying he shouldn't be captain

 

[Lentwood]

I personally do think he is the biggest problem we have...

That's interesting....because there is one stat you never hear talked about because it doesn't push clicks/engagements....

Our win %, without Harry Maguire, since he signed, is 25%. With, it's 52%.

That's why Maguire is never dropped, despite every know-nothing Twitter feed pushing the idea, because the simple, cold, undisputable fact is, when Maguire doesn't play, our chance of winning a game halves.

I'll say what I keep saying, Maguire is a good defender in a bad team. Varane is a good defender in a bad team. Lindelof and Bailly are good defenders, in a bad team.

 

[mavradal]

Much better performance from Maguire in this match, didn't put a foot wrong the entire 90 mins. MoM for me.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Fine today, good header at the end. There were too many chances where Brighton got free-headers. I don't want to put that all on him because I don't know who is to blame.